NationStates Jolt Archive

The E20 RP is a historical role play set in the 20th Century, and we have reached the delicate stage where the Nazis are a major factor.

I run the RP, and want to ensure that we don't unintentionally or otherwise violate the rules.

Could a Mod please check this and let me know if we are ok?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12265748&postcount=39

The bigger question is: what the Hell does this have to do with NationStates...

The bigger question is: what the Hell does this have to do with NationStates...

... I think he's concerned that it might be promoting Nazism or something and wants to see if that's against the rules.

Oh, I realise what he's asking, but I'm questioning if the whole thing is appropriate for NS. If it's just playing historical nations, then it doesn't belong here.

E20 has been a part of NS for over a year (it started in 2005) and has been very visible.

The fact of the matter is that people are roleplaying as RL nations, in RL scenarios. This has nothing to do with NationStates.

So, you are going to shut the RP down because of a matter of individual taste after it has been around for over a year? Most of the players involved in E20 also have NS nations and take part in NS RPs as well.

Saying “this has nothing to do with NationStates” is very arbitrary.

The fact of the matter is that people are roleplaying as RL nations, in RL scenarios. This has nothing to do with NationStates.

I beg to differ. These are not "real-life" scenarios. They are scenarios based upon real-life, but are NOT real-life scenarios. Virtually every RP on NS (except maybe FT) can be said to be absed off of RL. This is not RL as it never actually happened. It could've happened, but it didn't.

In fact, oen could argue that all of NS is in fact 'alternate history' as we are playing nations that have developed independent of our real history, but could have come into existence as of soem variation of history. Soem nations have ties to the RL USSR and Cold War in their histories. Are they no longer allowed to role-play because they are based off of real events?

EDIT:

I would also add that some of the countries are not, in fact real countries althoug htey are certainly based off of real countries. For example, the Yuan Dynasty Imperial CHina in our role-play never actually happened (nor was Bejing wiped out by a giant meteor...).

EDIT2: Furthermore, for you to wipe away a year and halfs worth of work from many dedicated players simply ebcause of some arbitrary ruling would be heinous.

So, you are going to shut the RP down because of a matter of individual taste after it has been around for over a year? Most of the players involved in E20 also have NS nations and take part in NS RPs as well.

Saying “this has nothing to do with NationStates” is very arbitrary.

It's also the rule...

It's also the rule...

Show me where it says 'Thou shalt not have alternate history roleplays'.

Saying “this has nothing to do with NationStates” is very arbitrary.Not in the slightest. This isn't a historical war sim, this is NationStates. You know, where you play your nation. "Germany" is not a NationStates nation.

Not in the slightest. This isn't a historical war sim, this is NationStates. You know, where you play your nation. "Germany" is not a NationStates nation.

Okay then. France will now be known as Amestria, Britain as Malkyer, US as Middle Snu, Germany as Kordo, Italy as Artitsa, Hungary as Bazalonia, Russia as Kilani, Japan as Haneastic... I guess I've got the idea across.

If this isn't allowed, then I guess the other Earth's should be banned then aye?

The bigger question is: what the Hell does this have to do with NationStates...

It is a roleplay that attempts to educate through learning why things happened they way they happened in the 20th Century and how they could have differed.

Although those involved are playing real life nations, if we called them something else like "Galveston Bay" or some such it would be no different in playing style then other RPs like Earth 5 or the like.

The primary difference between this RP and many others is that there are set rules, that it has a referee, and it is longer lasting (in terms of real time of existence) then many RPs.

My understanding of the Forums, and of Nation States in general, is that it is a game that also is meant to promote good story telling, and learning, and is meant to be enjoyable. I also understood the forums were meant to be a place for players from all over the world to interact and enjoy active story telling, roleplay and gameplay.

In this roleplay, we have players from Europe, Oceania, and North America who have been playing together for almost 2 years now, and for the most part seem to be both learning a great deal and enjoying the experience.

So in my opinion, it has a hell of a lot to do with Nation States. No offense meant, but you asked.

However, back to the original question, I simply posted in this thread to ensure that we are not violating the rules regarding offensive material.

Okay then. France will now be known as Amestria, Britain as Malkyer, US as Middle Snu, Germany as Kordo, Italy as Artitsa, Hungary as Bazalonia, Russia as Kilani, Japan as Haneastic... I guess I've got the idea across.How delightfully droll. While you are busting out the wit, how about addressing your sig?

If this isn't allowed, then I guess the other Earth's should be banned then aye?If the other earths were like this, they would have been stepped on. The only reason I never paid any attention to E20 was because I made the mistake of assuming it was the same.

The other earths are people using their own nation in a real-world geographic location. For instance, I might claim Greenland for my nation. I'm not playing Greenland; I'm playing the Hack, with the Hack's history, timeline, and leadership.

It is a roleplay that attempts to educate through learning why things happened they way they happened in the 20th Century and how they could have differed.This isn't PBS or TLC.

Although those involved are playing real life nations, if we called them something else like "Galveston Bay" or some such it would be no different in playing style then other RPs like Earth 5 or the like.Correct. However, it would be in line with what NS is for. The forums are for playing NationStates nations. Not for history lessons.

The primary difference between this RP and many others is that there are set rules, that it has a referee, and it is longer lasting (in terms of real time of existence) then many RPs....and doesn't involve NS nations. Perhaps I'm just tired, but expecting roleplay on the NationStates forums to involve NationStates nations seems logical.

My understanding of the Forums, and of Nation States in general, is that it is a game that also is meant to promote good story telling, and learning, and is meant to be enjoyable. I also understood the forums were meant to be a place for players from all over the world to interact and enjoy active story telling, roleplay and gameplay....involving their NationStates nations, yes.

In this roleplay, we have players from Europe, Oceania, and North America who have been playing together for almost 2 years now, and for the most part seem to be both learning a great deal and enjoying the experience.I have a pair of boots that I've been wearing for two years.

However, back to the original question, I simply posted in this thread to ensure that we are not violating the rules regarding offensive material.Continuing in my apparent need to state the painfully obvious, the appropriateness of the post is rather irrelevent if the whole thing doesn't belong.

With respect, may we have a second opinion from the other Mods please?

(we, as in the other players in the E20 RP)

To answer the original question re: Nazism, the only thing banned is having the Swastika (or sig-rune, the SS lightning bolt thingy, or possibly the Iron Cross) in one's flag (although those things all predate National Socialism [German: Nazionalsozialismus -> Nazism] by hundreds of years. :mad: )

You can RP a Nazi nation all you like. One of the guys I've been RP'ing with for the last few weeks is a Nazi nation. The Mods have yet to bother him. (Maybe the lack of a Swastika in his flag has something to do with it. :) )

So, you won't run afoul of the Nazism ban. However, if the Mods decide to get all pissy about alternate history RP's... well, I can't tell you what course of action to take, you'll have to decide that for yourself.

I read through the rules very carefully. Could I please have a specific reference as to what rules we are violating specifically?

I am not trying to be flip, offensive or difficult. I am asking a reasonable question in a reasonable manner. Why specifically, are we in violation of the rules according to the rules posted in the one stop rules shop and on the main Faq for Nationstates?

All I can tell you is that there is definate precedent for a thread like your's to be struck from the forums. If the rule is not listed, then that is wrong, for it should be...but as Hack said, it's a rule...and it's been around as long as I can remember...

Historical rps are banned from nationstates? :eek:

The way I see it, we should be allowed to RP whatever we like. I personally don't read the E-20 that much (then again, I generally don't usually read long threads unless I'm involved) but I see no reason it should be struck from the forums. If you want to RP a nation based off real life, or alternate universes, I see no reason to forbid it.

In fact, I feel that we should be left to our own devices when it comes to roleplay, unless OOC disputes get out of hand and the Mods have to be called in to stop a flamewar.

I think the original point of this thread was to discuss the legality of Nazi-based roleplay (which I believe we decided was permissible) and this whole thread got sidetracked. I'd like to see it locked before we get sidetracked any further.

Granted, the author was looking for an answer on Nazism in RP, which isn't wrong as far as I know. But since it was actually a moderator who brought us onto the subject of 'Does E20 belong on the Nationstates Forums'. It's fair to say that the thread isn't actually off-topic per say, and therefore doesn't deserve to get locked until a Moderator (or team of Moderators) make an actual decision on this.

Without bothering to actually read any of the threads, I will say this. If it's actually Nationstates related then it does belong on the forums. But if you guys are using Jolt to host your own little historical roleplay, a sort of recreation of RL history that has absolutely nothing to do with your actual accounts, then it belongs elsewhere. I actually remember somebody setting something up like that, except on Invisionfree rather than on the forums we use for Nationstates purposes. Maybe it's worthwhile looking into that, if you indeed are doing something that doesn't quite belong here.

-- Player of Austar Union

I agree with Austar. It looks to me that you might have to take E20 to an offsite forum. It sucks that a long-term RP might get shut down, but this IS a Nation States forum.

The way I see it, we should be allowed to RP whatever we like.

Well, you can't. This is the Nationstates forum, it is not a general random RP forum for anything you like. Other threads to do with simply taking real-world stuff have been locked under the 'All NS RP must be NS-related' aegis before, and this, if it's just writing an alternate history RP that has nothing to do with NS, falls under the same ban.

It's been enforced before. My suggestion is to register an Invision board if you want to get a group of NS players together to do something not NS-related, but we have to draw the line where stuff becomes completely irrelevant to our forums somewhere.

The Fascist Ayatollah Sez:

Hell, I moved an Iron Age RP idea I had off-site just in case, and I'm a moderator. You know, the kind of "I AM ABOVE ZEE LAW" guys like that studio executive from an early South Park episode.

Then we come to:
The way I see it, we should be allowed to RP whatever we like.
Hmmm. California and Alaska / Sovereign California would agree with you there. Problem: its definition of "whatever we like" includes "tentacle rape." Communist Mississippi would agree. Problem: his definition was "killing all the niggers and kikes and, oh yeah, mysogynistic rape."

No, you shouldn't be allowed to RP whatever you like. Think Zoaland, though he may have been a bit before your time. The first time we get invaded by Goreans, you'll end up agreeing.

The precedent, in this case, is: real-life places, used in NS context, equals good (New York New Jersey, C+A/SC inbetween bouts of insanity, Communist Mississippi before turning into a horrible boil on the ass of humanity). Real-life places, used in a RL or alternate RL context, equals bad (refighting World War II, what if the Soviets had won the Cold War, what if the Cuban Missile Crisis went nuclear, what if Harry Turtledove didn't suck so bad as a writer). The fact that no one bothered to notice or mention it is irrelevant.

If there was a 6 billion-population nation called "Assfuckcuntpenislickbelgiumistan" we'd still delete it because it's against the rules. Exact same thing here, except decidedly more mundane and therefore more open to complaint.

http://www.dccomics.com/mad/images/ayatollah.jpg
Fascist Ayatollah Scolo
Deleter of Well-Loved Rulebreakers and Drinker of the Blood Of Children*

* Recipe for "Blood of Children:"

1 oz. Triple Sec
1 oz. Blackberry Liqueur
Cranberry juice to taste

I'm having trouble believing what I read... Let's see if I get this right;

These guys are roleplaying as different nations, creating little scenarios and playing them out, something they have been doing here for a couple of years. But now they suddenly can't continue because they aren't doing it correctly?

What they seem to be doing wrong is this:
1) They don't use their NS nations' names but the names of RL nations.
2) They RP scenarios with a background in RL history, which they then alter.

Er...

These don't seem like very grave accusations, do they? If this "has nothing to do with NationStates", then what has?

I mean, it's not as if it's an entirely new kind of RP. In fact these people still RP as nations in scenarios they themselves create, which is what NS is all about. If you're still intent on shutting down this RP, at least do the the E-20 guys the favour of properly explaining where the error is.

I have come to an understanding that there exists or existed several RP's that include similar concepts to that of E20, such as a 19th century RP, a modern RP, a Colonization RP or even a Medieval Era RP.

There are also other styles of RP's which were historical themed, I myself participated briefly in an American Civil war RP as well as an RP about the German Weimer Republic. Of course there is also the generic World War 2 RPs that comes occasionally.

I also think there have been more than large share of RPs that followed different themes, such character based RPs that follow a theme of a popular TV/Film/Game theme, such as: James Bond, Resident Evil, Half-Life, Mafia, 24 and no doubt others, where it is more often than not that users use characters that have no direct relation to NS.

Am I to understand that all those which I have mentioned are against the rules? Perhaps this means that I am a long-time violator then?

Sadly, I see where the Mod's are coming from. Would it be legitimate for someone to start a D&D Roleplay or Bunnies and Burrows on the NationStates Forum? No.

The fact they're playing countries rather than paladins or squirrels does not help: those countries seem to be unrelated to anything on NationStates as the aforesaid paladin.

It just disguised their irrelevance to the forum, and caused the tragedy that their illegitimate presence was undiscovered for so long, and they built a large investment of time and effort into it.

There may be a case for the forum rules to more explicitly rule out irrelevant roleplay.

What makes it worse, is that the only reason attention was brought to us, is because our founder was courteous enough to ask whether role-playing a Nazi Germany would be within the laws. And this is how we are punished...

Yes, it is a tragedy that could have been averted if the Moderators had spelled out RELEVANCE as a criteria in the RULES.

I have read all the rules I can find, and no-where is this even implied.


I think this is a serious oversight.

Then surely the right course of action, would be to leave us alone, and stop any irrelevant role=plays in the future.

The Fascist Ayatollah Sez:


If there was a 6 billion-population nation called "Assfuckcuntpenislickbelgiumistan" we'd still delete it because it's against the rules. Exact same thing here, except decidedly more mundane and therefore more open to complaint.


Except... what rule does this violate? No one seems to know.

Except... what rule does this violate? No one seems to know.

'All NS roleplaying must have something to do with Nationstates.' We are not a random RP forum. This is spelled out by the fact that the NS roleplaying forums are attached to the outer site rather than having nothing to do with it.

Ruling:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11262009&highlight=roleplaying#post11262009

It has long been policy to not make exhaustive lists of commonsense rules. The fact that we are not a collection of random roleplaying is one of those rules. Complaining will not change that. There will be further moderator discussion on what becomes of Earth 20, but for this thread, that is all. End of line.

With respect, may we have a second opinion from the other Mods please?

(we, as in the other players in the E20 RP)


You've been given your second opinion (and third and fourth opinions, from Scolo and GMC). I'm in total agreement with Hack on this.

I'll add the fifth opinion, which is that the ruling here is consistent with many previous rulings that roleplays unrelated to NationStates do not belong here.

The fact that some folks have missed the previous rulings is not sufficient grounds to challenge this ruling. The fact that the rulebreaking thread has continued quite successfully for a long period of time is not even close to being grounds to challenge this ruling.