NationStates Jolt Archive

If a player who has bought the founder of a region from another player then proceeds to cause havoc with their new founderly powers, would any rules be broken?

We don't condone (or necessarily condemn) nation 'selling'. In fact, this is the first time I've ever heard of it. I've seen plenty of nations traded or given away, but an exchange of cash? Bizarre.

There are a couple of things to be aware of when nations change hands. First, ownership resides with the player who knows the password. While password hacking is blatantly illegal (and we'll usually delete nation thieves without warning), password sharing is legal. It is, however, foolish. The new owner may not realize it, but he's likely to become 'infected' with all the warnings that have accumulated on the other nation.

Gaining a nation without knowing its moderation history can backfire rather badly. Using 'nation lots' is even more dangerous, as that history contamination can accumulate in the nations passed around on the sales floor, and a perfectly innocuous nation can end up looking like a Delete on Sight player to us. It's generally a bad idea.

That said, the ownership of the nation can be passed by the creator to a new owner. As far as we're concerned, 'he who can log on may do whatever he legally wishes'. If he's a founder, he has full founder powers. If he abuses them (in the eyes of the region, but without breaking site rules), tough. The new owner can also legally change the password to keep out the old owner. If he made a mistake, tough. Not much we can do about a voluntary transfer of power.

Without knowing a lot more about the situation, I'd be hesitant to consider this a binding ruling on anything that may or may not have happened recently. One person's perception of 'voluntary' may not match another person's viewpoint. If there is more information, feel free to file a Getting Help report.

Tyrr was hacked from another player in the game.

I don't want to say much as anyone can read this forum but I am in discussion with a moderator on how we are getting it back.

Tyrr was hacked from another player in the game.
If that was the case, we'd have already acted. In fact, Tyrr has been passed around so much that it's not at all clear who did or should own it. So far, all we've heard are appeals to emotion. It's hard to make a fair ruling based on that.

Safalra, I'd like more detail about this supposed 'sale'. Respond via Getting Help or in our IRC channel (#themodcave on espernet) if you need privacy.

Tyrr was passed on once and then that person left the game.
Now if only one person is left in the game that can access it and then it is hacked by someone and then get Tyrr to say they are moving to Gatesville. It clearly demonstrates unusual behaviour.

I have been delegate of England for a good few years until I stood down and allowed someone else the chance. I would have hoped that someone who has played the game fairly, looked after and entertained hundreds of players in real life and always maintained a region that does not break any rules that it is clear that I am not lying or trying to present a case that is not 100% true.

Tyrr was never sold, this was something dreamt up by someone else in England that did not know about the situation and found Tyrr's behaviour out of character. Trust me, if Tyrr had ever been up for sale I would have gladly bid and won it as I feel so passionately about England, the regions citizens and the game.

This game is made of pure emotion and whilst that does not provide clear evidence, surely you can see unusual behaviour that the Founder would not usually show. Please help us out here Frisbeeteria, we are so fortunate to actually have a founder that has not ceased to exist and we care so much for our region, don't let someone that "got lucky" and guessed the password ruin the years of hard work so many dedicated players put into the game.

His Majesty
The very sad, emotional and ex long serving delegate of England.

It would be nice if you'd quite throwing around the word "hacked". Trying to shift the blame for lax password security to us isn't particularly helpful.

Firstly, passwords are hacked regularly.

Making a comment about a lax password not being your fault is part of the acceptance that you know something untoward has happened.

Firstly, passwords are hacked regularly.No, they aren't.

Firstly, passwords are hacked regularly.

Making a comment about a lax password not being your fault is part of the acceptance that you know something untoward has happened.

No, hacking is people getting onto our server to steal info. They haven't.

Having a password that is easy to guess is NOT HACKING, it's a lucky guess.

We are NOT responsible for people putting a password that is personally identifiable (pets, favorite teams, something related to their nation or region) or logging in from computers others have access to with auto-login set to on, or logging in someplace where another person in your region can lean over and view your screen.

Secure passwords should be a combination of letters and special characters, upper and lowercase, as random as possible, longer than five characters.

ok, I apologize for using the word hacking. Using an account without permission is illegal in the real world though and I should hope that I have provided enough information that you will help me and return it.

Suggesting that having a lax password is the fault of the person is a fair comment. But this is a game and you hope you get decent gamplay. I'm sure if Tyrr was returned then the password would be made more complicated.

Please help me, the password has been guessed and I have given you information demonstrating that I am not messing you around or lying. It is very unfair regardless of how simple a password is for someone to have their game spoilt - please return it.

Not trying to run over what mods have already said, but have a player perspective here. Speaking as a fellow game player, who's taken the proper precautions, and never had a problem with password-stealing or the like on account, what I see as unfair is you coming in here and rather rudely expecting the moderators to show you preferential treatment because you've been inconvenienced by something that is not their fault. If they have to do it for you, they'd be expected to fix every little sob story that comes across these boards - whether they're true or not. Given the nature of the game, and the annonymity the internet provides, surely you can grasp the difficulties inherent in ascertaining certainty for some of these claims, yes?

There's been dozens of changes and rulings made on this game that someone or other has claimed have 'ruined' their fun, or inconvenienced their play, or just plain pissed them off because the decision didn't go their way, so it's not like you're the only one having issues. They can't cater to everyone. We're all expected to be responsible with our nations, and if that can't be managed, that isn't the moderator's problem - it's the problem for whoever dropped the ball. And it isn't fair to the rest of us to expect them to make it all better on account. Appeal to the person, try to work things out, or go refound and call it good if nothing else works. It won't be the first time a region had to resort to those measures. I'm sure it won't be the last.

As for the basis of your claim, you've made it clear that you did not create this nation, and that it was given to you by another player. It's also been made clear that the orignal owner left the game and has recently returned. I can't help but notice that he hasn't expressed any interest in this thread or the nation in question, and I have to wonder why.
Suggesting that having a lax password is the fault of the person is a fair comment.
It's more than a 'fair comment', it's part of the game rules.
Originally posted by the FAQ (http://www.nationstates.net/page=faq#technical)
>Someone has taken control of my nation!

It is against the rules to hijack someone else's nation, and if we see someone do it, we'll ban them. If we don't see it happen, though, and someone changes your password and e-mail address, I'm afraid you're on your own. As far as the game is concerned, your government has been overthrown in a coup.

To prevent people accessing your nation, turn off auto-login if you use a public computer. You should also choose a password that is not easily guessable.
That's the official position of this site, so that's our core guideline. Our evidence shows you and at least one other as intermediate users, so our investigation indicates that you are as much of an interloper as the supposed thief. It's not a cut-and-dried case, HM.

Firstly, I invited the player back that use to hold the account to help. He has denied passing it on. caling me an interloper when I have been in control for several years in England is a bit off.

How exactly do you see someone then that has stolen control of a nation? Is it their behaviour? It seems that only if they join the UN and IP addresses are the same that is how you find out.

I am the only one in the game that controlled Tyrr. This was changed by someone I don't know or want to know. I am disappointed by your apparent thought that I am looking to blame you, the moderators. I am not, but surely when a nations password has been changed it should be changed back and returned. I have provided enough information to show that. Rules that are set on the site are to be interpretted by you, the judges to help and make gameplaying enjoyable.

Would it be fair then to try guessing the password of every nation in the game? If I successfully guess them, then its their fault for having an easy password?

Safalra, I'd like more detail about this supposed 'sale'. Respond via Getting Help or in our IRC channel (#themodcave on espernet) if you need privacy.
Just before Tyrr started behaving very strangely the nation pretitle was changed for a few days to 'Bid Up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bid_tv) Nation'. As I wasn't sure exactly what was going on (and have only this circumstantial evidence for a sale) my question above was phrased hypothetically. I'm going to stay out of the debate about whether Tyrr was 'hacked' as His Majesty hasn't been particularly forthcoming in telling the new regional government all he knows. It's at times like this that I wish we were a founderless region like Canada...

(and 'cause I can't resist being pedantic: guessing or attempting to guess passwords is illegal in Britian, where NS is hosted, under the Computer Misuse Act 1990)

How exactly do you see someone then that has stolen control of a nation?That is not the kind of information we divulge.

Would it be fair then to try guessing the password of every nation in the game? If I successfully guess them, then its their fault for having an easy password?Some of us have secure passwords (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Tindalos/Silly%20Things/Secure.jpg).

Jesting aside, numerous guesses can be actionable, if they're caught. However, if your nation is named "Thor" and your password is "god", you should probably think about changing it. From what I've been told, Tyrr's password was... to be blunt... utterly pathetic.

I wish to thank the moderators for resolving this in the best possible way.

I will ensure everyone in the region secures their passwords by including digits and numbers.

I fully understand that one set of rules must be followed to keep game play fair, but can be interpreted differently by many people.

Thanks again, mods rule! :D

HM

Some of us have secure passwords (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Tindalos/Silly%20Things/Secure.jpg).
Nice. Out of interest, how often do people try to hack into modly nations? Are they then hunted down and exterminated?

Nice. Out of interest, how often do people try to hack into modly nations? Are they then hunted down and exterminated?

http://freespace.virgin.net/steve.redfearn/Graphics/JPG/Renegade%20Daleks%20(22).jpg
Exterminate! EXTERMINATE!

[snip image]
Exterminate! EXTERMINATE!
I reckon that middle one's Salusa. Just imagine it with that mask on.

Nice. Out of interest, how often do people try to hack into modly nations? Are they then hunted down and exterminated?Not too frequently, actually. Part of it may be a lack of master list on the game side. Of course, breaking into my nation wouldn't do much good anyway. The forum account has power, and it's not like there's a giant link on my nation to the Mod Centre.

Which, incidentally, is what I used to get that warning...

Which, incidentally, is what I used to get that warning...

And here I was figuring you used Photoshop.

Nope. Found the key that records how many bad attempts there were and changed the number to infinity plus one, and logged in.