NationStates Jolt Archive

I am angry. As a popular movie quote goes: "I'm mad as Hell, and I'm not gunna take it anymore!"

Here's the story. Apparently whatever NS moderator looked at the complex case made the judgment in less than six minutes. So, first the story:

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I submit to the Moderators this evidence:
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FEC: "HOWEVER...she deliberately come to The Lexicon."
Yes, on purpose
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First, FEC knew that she was moving to The Lexicon “gone on my purely (in my mind) political mission” (quotes are FEC’s…check above).

Thus we can establish that the person behind Former English Colony did, with intent, move her nation to The Lexicon for a specific reason.

She does admit moving to the region with the pre-title: “The Remembering Bluftuney Nation”. By the admission of herself and others, this was the nation name of a person who is now no longer living in this world.

FEC does admit to posting in The Lexicon Regional Board. It is recognized that she responded to another person noticing her there. When learning that FEC had not only come to The Lexicon with the name of a deceased person in her title, and posted…something no person could force her to do, but did voluntarily…I became insulted at her actions. This constituted a horrible dishonor to myself, let alone other people in the region.

While I believe I have no recourse in The North Pacific, I find her actions, despite her opposition, assaulting and insulting…a hate crime perpetuated politically by her own admission. I have requested redress for this by suggesting an apology on The Lexicon Regional Board as long as 1) I know it is her: last time I looked, puppets were not illegal. I have no power to unban her from the region. 2) That it contain some gesture or mention of apology: “Sorry” will suffice.

In good faith, I will accept the said apology as sincere without question, and furthermore refrain from posting on The North Pacific Regional Board thereafter. To date, no such apology has appeared, nor has any other alternative been put forth. FEC mentioned apology to other players, but has refused apologizing in the way I have requested.

FEC might have people believe that she is a reasonable and honorable person. I request evidence of this in a way I do not find too unreasonable. I will offer my existence here in NationStates as ransom for this breach of justice.

Perhaps you may not agree that this was assault, so I am going to have to use an example to illustrate. If I were to, if I could, change my pre-title to The [insert race here] Killing Nation of Yellowstone Park, I would rightly be booted from the game. I would not have to flaunt my views…simply move from region to region. Even if I posted nothing, which FEC did, I would still be in breach of the Terms.

I await the decision of the Moderating Team, who slowness makes me question your objectivity, or the action of FEC, in the form most suitable to her, that I have requested.

I apologize for having to use the name of the deceased in this post. I believe it is not viewed here as insulting, but I will submit a formal apology if asked. I will, however, on my own accord, perform the cleansing required of my transgressions to my own Authority.

I thank you for hearing my words, and I regret having to do so in a manner that may detract from the game. However, I am publicly protesting because I see no other alternative. Thank you.

This was posted on the TNP board.

The purpose of this thread is this: to use whatever free speech I have for whatever limited time I have left before opponents of Justice can censor me. I challenge them to find hate in my words...a different thing from anger and outrage.

Agree...disagree...ignore this thread...call me names...I don't care. I need to speak.

More to come.

Your appeal is emotional, but I don't think there are many people who would consider a pretitle remembering anyone as a hate crime.

If I were to make my pretitle "The remembering Walt Disney nation of Katganistan", there would be absolutely nobody considering it insulting or horrible or in any way anything other than a memorial.

You are also drawing a false parallel: I don't think anyone could logically argue that "The Killing *group* nation of whatever" is in any shape equivalent to "The Remembering *person* nation of whatever". One advocates violence, and the other advocates... remembering.

For the record, I was NOT the mod who made the ruling, but you seem to be acting very unreasonably. You're also accusing the entire moderation team of corruption and saying that we'll delete you -- why? Because you disagree with a fairly straightforward ruling?

Take a break. Not an enforced one.

You are right, Kat. I need to take a break. Talking (typing) about it helps me think things out. That's why I'm here.

Yes, I am posting emotionally. It is hard to describe. Everyong knows about Nazis. No one thinks Kenniwick Man is any big deal.

...I just saw your post UB. I put this here becuase it wasn't exactly a complaint against the mods...I'm sure most of them try to act fair. I put this here because...well...I don't normally post here. I've posted a couple of responses but that's it.

...I disagree with you, Katganistan, though, about it being a straightforward ruling. To your worldview, it is. To mine, it is not. I mentioned to the offending nation that it was like giving someone in China a clock. Harmless from the giver's perspective, but it is highly insulting to the person who gets it.

We all have prejudices. We all have our cultures. I was calling for a respect for that, using non-violent techniques (of course, in the virtual world that'd be a stretch I realize). I used my words...my only recourse. I did the virtual equivalent of picketting.

Thank you for your honesty and response. I know you mods try, but, my grandmother was Native Cree from Rocky Boy res. I know the stories. I'm just insulted, hurt, and a tad cynical right now (but apparantly still possessing a gift for understatement.)

Alright. Spam...what is it? How can one nation in a region post on the RMB many times and it isn't spam, but I can post...waiting a respected 60 minutes...and get the wrath of the mods on me? Someone asked me a question...is it wrong to answer? I call that baiting.

Alright, another question. What is considered a mod no-no. I quote directly from the FAQ:

What can't I post?

Any content that is:


obscene
illegal
threatening
malicious
defamatory
spam


This applies to your nation's name, motto, and other customizable fields, any messages you write, images you post, or any other content you upload or link to NationStates. If you do, your nation will be deleted. See the site's Terms & Conditions for details.

Also prohibited is the practice of "griefing." Griefing is playing with the primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people. If you do this, the game moderators may take action against you.

FEC deliberately moved into my region with something I considered offensive in her customizable field: namely, her pre-title. She called it 'honor'. Tell me, if I 'honor' Hitler in my pre-title, will I get booted? Yes, and rightly so!!!

Secondly, she was griefing...deliberately going into my region with the name of the Dead in her name. "primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people". That is griefing and has nothing to do with booting people out.

I am not the Delegate. I asked for an apology. Yes, I was emotional. I am an INFP on the M-B scale. What does she do? Insult me all the further (I have proof documented).

So, I did what I thought I could do: the equivalent of picketing. Maybe such a practice is frowned upon these days, and Free Speech is only a by-word bought by those whites who can afford such things...but I did what I had to do. I know, I know: "There is no free speech in NationStates." Martin Luther King also new that there was no justice to his People even if such 'laws' were in place. That doesn't make it right.

What I felt was insulted just as FEC 'felt' what she was doing was fine. I'm sure a few sherriffs in Alabama 'felt' they were doing their duty standing up to them uppity protestors. I took a stand, and I am willing to be martyred for it: given the 'command' to take a permanent vacation. Again, MLK knew that he had to pay for his 'crimes' and spend time in jail. But he proved a point, that the so-called 'laws' were unjust.

Yet, the FAQ spells out these offenses. I ask for justice, and I don't think six minutes of someone just looking at a few records is justice. Why is there no way to talk to people?

That is my beef...my problem. Your rules, mods, favor those whose worldview is Caucasian European. It is not that you are being deliberately mean. It is that the entire worldview you use can and does affect people who have different worldviews.

...

...deeeeeeeep breath. I have to speak. It is what is demanded of me from the One-I-Hear. Again, if I am damned for it...my virtual blood will concecrate the ground.

What the hell are you babbling about? Actually, you know what? Don't even bother. If you're going to draw parallels between events in Selma and a bloody online game, you have absolutely no concept of proportionality, and really only a tentative grasp of reality.

Here is a snippet of the conversations. I am sorry that this is a bit disjointed...going backwards, but I'm almost out of time. I will have to continue this because the spirit of the Dead has not been put to rest.

5 minutes ago
The Commonwealth of Yellowstone Park
Yes Great Bights Mum...different cultures must be respected. Why is my claim for respect not being honored?

Again, you miss my point. The spirit of the person - incarnated in the NS name - is still there...and it has polluted my home. If FEC wants to do this in her region, I have no claim. She can remain.

HOWEVER...she deliberately come to The Lexicon. That is taunting...that is assault...that is waving in my face. She can keep the pre-title here...that is her right. She CANNOT come to where I live.

I thank you for tolerating my words here. I have been annoying, no question. What I ask, and I ask in all sincerity, is for a simple apology. If FEC shows her tolerance and respect for my culture, I will respect hers, leave this RMB, and go home. Her fist has met my nose. Where is the justice?

Congrats on your election GBM. I have no quarrel with you or any other TNP resident.
4 minutes ago
The Remembering Bluftuney Nation of Former English Colony
*sighs*

"HOWEVER...she deliberately come to The Lexicon."
Yes, on purpose

"That is taunting...that is assault...that is waving in my face."
It was never taunting, it was never look at me, look at my flag, look look look. Nor did I communicate with IP or Cath before I was kicked except to say I was sorry IP felt that way about what my nation had on it.

"She can keep the pre-title here...that is her right. She CANNOT come to where I live."
It's your founder's right to dictate that I can't be where you live, and such has happened. And if I had known that people would get so bent out of shape over my tribute, then I wouldn't have gone on my purely (in my mind) political mission.
Seconds ago
The Commonwealth of Yellowstone Park
Fine, FEC....it was a mistake. We learn from our mistakes...I know, I've made plenty!!! Again, this insulted IP and Cathyy, but this isn't done on their behest. I am not the delegate, so I cannot boot you. That is between IP and you. I can, however, protest this. I am using the only tool I have any ability to use: my words.

Would you like to do the honors, or would you like to suggest something else? We need to put the spirits to rest here.

FEC's 'perception' was that she was not in the wrong. I challenged that perception. I was and am angry. I can't help it if her ego is so big that she has to tell the mods to get rid of me for 'spamming'...tricking me into doing so when I was simply answering what I thought was a spirited and respectable debate.

I call on the mods to look deeper into this. FEC cannot be allowed to hurt me and get away with it. She will hurt others using her logic. Furthermore, I believe (not provable because of the loopholes, winks, and nudges) that her friends used their mod powers to 'tell' on me.

Real mature. I demand justice. What does FEC do but get her TNP buddies to drop-kick me.

I left TNP voluntarily...I will tell you that truthfully. This isn't about banning...it is about using moderator influence to silence someone who has felt legitimate insult and hurt. She used her 'insider know how' to do me in.

This was not about playing the 'game'. This was beyond the game. She crossed the line and insulting my humanity. I don't think getting me on a technicality is very honorable at all. She can run from me, but she cannot run from her conscience!

I'm mad as hell, and I ain't gunna take it anymore!

What the hell are you babbling about? Actually, you know what? Don't even bother. If you're going to draw parallels between events in Selma and a bloody online game, you have absolutely no concept of proportionality, and really only a tentative grasp of reality.

Again, your perception. This goes deeper than that (and I honestly don't have a clue what this 'Selma' is). There comes a time when you have to say 'enough is enough'. I drew a line in the sand. If you'd like to talk to me rather than insult me, I would appreciate that.

Thank you for posting, though, Caloris Basin.

Alright. Spam...what is it? How can one nation in a region post on the RMB many times and it isn't spam, but I can post...waiting a respected 60 minutes...and get the wrath of the mods on me? Someone asked me a question...is it wrong to answer? I call that baiting.

What are you talking about? the only spam warning you have is from JULY 15th and appears to have nothing to do with this case.


Alright, another question. What is considered a mod no-no. I quote directly from the FAQ:

Quote:
What can't I post?

Any content that is:

* obscene
* illegal
* threatening
* malicious
* defamatory
* spam


This applies to your nation's name, motto, and other customizable fields, any messages you write, images you post, or any other content you upload or link to NationStates. If you do, your nation will be deleted. See the site's Terms & Conditions for details.

Also prohibited is the practice of "griefing." Griefing is playing with the primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people. If you do this, the game moderators may take action against you.

FEC deliberately moved into my region with something I considered offensive in her customizable field: namely, her pre-title. She called it 'honor'. Tell me, if I 'honor' Hitler in my pre-title, will I get booted? Yes, and rightly so!!!
As has been stated: *you* consider it offensive. We're sorry about that, but the majority of reasonable people would NOT consider it offensive. Therefore, it is NOT a customizable field violation. Again, it does not call for violence. It is not defaming the person named. It is not an ethnic slur. It does not relegate anyone into being deemed useless or inferior.

Secondly, she was griefing...deliberately going into my region with the name of the Dead in her name. "primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people". That is griefing and has nothing to do with booting people out.
It does not seem obvious that upsetting anyone was her aim. That it happened is regrettable, yes, but again, that is not the obvious intent.

I am not the Delegate. I asked for an apology. Yes, I was emotional. I am an INFP on the M-B scale. What does she do? Insult me all the further (I have proof documented).
What proof do you have that she insulted you? That she asked you to lay the case before the moderators and let them hear your case?

So, I did what I thought I could do: the equivalent of picketing. Maybe such a practice is frowned upon these days, and Free Speech is only a by-word bought by those whites who can afford such things...
Now who's a racist?


but I did what I had to do. I know, I know: "There is no free speech in NationStates." Martin Luther King also new that there was no justice to his People even if such 'laws' were in place. That doesn't make it right.

What I felt was insulted just as FEC 'felt' what she was doing was fine. I'm sure a few sherriffs in Alabama 'felt' they were doing their duty standing up to them uppity protestors. I took a stand, and I am willing to be martyred for it: given the 'command' to take a permanent vacation. Again, MLK knew that he had to pay for his 'crimes' and spend time in jail. But he proved a point, that the so-called 'laws' were unjust.
You are being ridiculously melodramatic about this, as well as being the only person present making racist remarks. No reasonable person would draw the parallel that because your opinion differs from a moderation decision, it's the white man coming down on you.

Yet, the FAQ spells out these offenses.And I tell you that from what we see, there were no offenses.
I ask for justice, and I don't think six minutes of someone just looking at a few records is justice.I don't think that there has been any injustice done. You believe this to be offensive. At least two of the mod team (myself and whomever made the call) do not think it is. We never swore that no one would ever NOT be offended on this site -- simply that we take *reasonable* steps to make sure that people do not go out of their way to be mean to each other. That does not appear to be the case here. Why is there no way to talk to people? There is. You've made a Getting help request and now you've made this very public demand for more explanation. The problem does not seem so much to no way to talk but no willingness to listen to the answer.

That is my beef...my problem. Your rules, mods, favor those whose worldview is Caucasian European. It is not that you are being deliberately mean. It is that the entire worldview you use can and does affect people who have different worldviews.

...

...deeeeeeeep breath. I have to speak. It is what is demanded of me from the One-I-Hear. Again, if I am damned for it...my virtual blood will concecrate the ground.
And your worldview apparently would have us punish someone for something that in no way is illegal, nor is against the rules. You can bewail your martyrdom all you like, but you won't be deleted unless you break the rules... just like FEC is not going to be punished for not breaking the rules.

You ... do realize that just because you're offended by someone mentioning the name of someone who's passed on offends you, does not mean the intention was to offend? To most folks, remembrance isn't a bad thing, nor offensive in nature. The fact that you, of a whole plethora of people happens to be offended by it, for whatever reason, is unfortunate, but frankly ... your problem there. As you've already admitted.

If someone was deliberately going out of their way to gloat about said death or the like, I'd think you had something, but as that doesn't seem to be the case, maundering on about your personal beliefs being compromised, about how you're mad and need your time in the sun to shout about how you've been so horribly wounded by an innocuous pretitle ... well, you're starting to sound more than a little unreasonable, and rather more a right nutjob with a massive chip on his shoulder.

Take a few more of those 'deep breaths' and step away from the keyboard for a while, and ponder the wisdom of doing the exact same thing you claim others are doing - imposing your personal set of beliefs on others.

I can't help it if her ego is so big that she has to tell the mods to get rid of me for 'spamming'.

Nice try, except that your nation Yellowstone Park has not been deleted, nor has it been warned. You, on the other hand, are flaming and really need to get your temper under control.

I'm the mod who handled this, and it's clear to me that you are getting lots of exercise jumping to conclusions.
Apparently whatever NS moderator looked at the complex case made the judgment in less than six minutes.
Task arrived: Wed Aug 9 19:44:25 2006
1st telegram: 'Thu Aug 10 00:31:38 2006 From: !NationStates Moderators
2nd telegram: 'Thu Aug 10 00:48:22 2006 From: !NationStates Moderators

In the course of my investigation, I came across frequent posts from you, including one that promised to 'keep posting as often as it takes' (I didn't log that one, so the phrasing may be off). So I dropped a quick line telling you to knock it off. And yeah, it took me another six minutes to evaluate your complaint and write up a ruling.

Your complaint is that FEC didn't respect your culture, and you DEMAND an apology. I respectfully DEMAND you show me the NationStates rules that make failure to be politically correct a moderation offense. Or the rule that only the complaining player has the right to decide how to interpret a phrase (in this case a pretitle).

We're not the thought police. You have no more idea of FEC's thoughts when s/he chose that pretitle than have I. I've seen plenty of nations post 'memorial' titles and move to different regions. This is the first time anyone has ever complained that it was an offense to their cultural heritage.

You've thrown out insinuations that this is somehow a White versus Native American issue. Here's a clue for you. You, sir or madam, are a collection of pixels spelling out the name of a National Park. The one you accuse is a collection of pixels spelling out something about a British colony. The only thing black and white about it is my screen colors. Ethnicity doesn't, hasn't, and never will enter into my rulings. And I resent the totally unfounded insinuation that it has.

You've had reviews from three different mods at this point (yes, Caloris Basin is a mod puppet), and we pretty much all agree that your perception does not equal the reality, whatever that might be. If you're that angry, go punch a tree or something. We're done here.

You ... do realize that just because you're offended by someone mentioning the name of someone who's passed on offends you, does not mean the intention was to offend? To most folks, remembrance isn't a bad thing, nor offensive in nature. The fact that you, of a whole plethora of people happens to be offended by it, for whatever reason, is unfortunate, but frankly ... your problem there. As you've already admitted.

If someone was deliberately going out of their way to gloat about said death or the like, I'd think you had something, but as that doesn't seem to be the case, maundering on about your personal beliefs being compromised, about how you're mad and need your time in the sun to shout about how you've been so horribly wounded by an innocuous pretitle ... well, you're starting to sound more than a little unreasonable, and rather more a right nutjob with a massive chip on his shoulder.

Take a few more of those 'deep breaths' and step away from the keyboard for a while, and ponder the wisdom of doing the exact same thing you claim others are doing - imposing your personal set of beliefs on others.

Quoted for truth.

You ... do realize that just because you're offended by someone mentioning the name of someone who's passed on offends you, does not mean the intention was to offend? To most folks, remembrance isn't a bad thing, nor offensive in nature. The fact that you, of a whole plethora of people happens to be offended by it, for whatever reason, is unfortunate, but frankly ... your problem there. As you've already admitted.

If someone was deliberately going out of their way to gloat about said death or the like, I'd think you had something, but as that doesn't seem to be the case, maundering on about your personal beliefs being compromised, about how you're mad and need your time in the sun to shout about how you've been so horribly wounded by an innocuous pretitle ... well, you're starting to sound more than a little unreasonable, and rather more a right nutjob with a massive chip on his shoulder.

Take a few more of those 'deep breaths' and step away from the keyboard for a while, and ponder the wisdom of doing the exact same thing you claim others are doing - imposing your personal set of beliefs on others.

Alright. I have to take this one at a time. It will take a lot. Forgive me for not knowing the technical term 'flaming'. My intent is to work things out. I'm afraid I'll have to jump here first.

What you have said, Dread Lady Nathicana, is nothing I have not heard from others. What I do not understand...and I'm not doing this to tick you off...I am angry and thus maybe a tad bit irrational, I admit... What I do not understand is why it says that deliberately insulting someone, griefing, is against the Terms, and yet you judge that I am not insulted. The pre-title was obscene and, in my view, malicious.

These are subjective. Yet, there they are. There is no 'obscene' meter and no 'malicious' indicator. I am not asking the offender to be booted, kicked, or whatnot. I am asking for her apology.

Again, I don't find giving a clock to someone from China offensive. I intend to give a gift. The person can choose to accept the gift and remain silent. The person can choose to be angry and do something about that. The person may TELL me about it, and I will understand. That's what this is about.

I stated to the offender that this was a protest. Protests are loud, noisy buggers. That is the whole purpose of the Freedom of Speech. It is what modern protests in America are all about. Now, I don't know what constitutes 'spam' I admit. Until joining NS, I thought it was simply those annoying e-mails one got in their mailbox. I've looked in the FAQ and the Terms to try figure out what constitutes a technical definition of 'spam' in your opinion.

But back to what you said, Dread Lady Nathicana, about what 'does' and 'does not seem' to be the case... You accuse me of picking what I am offended by and that I should just be a 'good boy' and shut up. Yeah, when enough straws pile on a camel's back, he does mix metaphores and gets a chip on his shoulder. I am mad. I want to vent, and I think the issue does touch on something deep within the culture. I've mentioned MLK, a hero of mine...I don't see why he should have sat down and shut up. I don't see why I should either. It is not wrong to be angry. It is wrong to keep it inside and swallow it...it makes a person sick or (perhaps in my case) a little irrational.

Trust me, I am not picking a fight. I am asking questions. As I have also told my offender, if my words offend her, she can either tell me, for which I will seek reconciliation, or she can choose to ignore them. I am no threat using my words unless you really feel that I am assulting you. Again, my intention (and isn't the road to hell paved with 'em) is to challenge the system...test it's integrity...bring up a question of justice.

I tried to settle this. I asked FEC for an apology. Heck, I would have accepted a TG from her and relayed it to my region-mates. Curse my emotional INFP for getting caught up...I tried to stem off the anger from my region-mates and tried to swallow my own pride. But I choked. I admit it. viola...chip on shoulder.

I ask this question: If I were to change my pretitle (and this is only as a hypothetical example to prove a point) to "Sodomize and eat a baby", would that be enough to cause an emotional reaction in some. Now, say that person went into another region called, let's say "Cute Babies". Say they did nothing else...just moved there...hard to do by accident. If someone complained...what would you do? Now, say they do post...making themselves known and someone complained? Now, say that person moves somewhere else and I ask for an apology. Is that being insane?

You might laugh. I know...outside of a person's worldview, this will seem absurd. There is no objective way to measure my outrage (except maybe in pixels...but...). My cultural views were challenged. Prejudice can do that. Having power over someone, as FEC does, makes prejudice into racism. You don't need to see a person to be racist. ...uhg...emotion makes me go on tangents.

If what I say puts you to the test...I am sorry. It is your mirror you must look in. If you tell me you are angry, hey, I will listen to you and seek reconcilliation that is agreeable to us both.

Anger is not bad. It is the emotion that prompts one to action. I am angry. It comes out in words. Now...looks like there is a lot to address.

What are you talking about? the only spam warning you have is from JULY 15th and appears to have nothing to do with this case.

That is what the mod message told me...that I was spamming.

That other incident...I admit to. I honestly had no idea that such a thing constituted spamming. I don't deny that. What I question is the mod (whom I will get to when/if I can) who tells me that I am spamming, and to (not very politely) "knock it off" (paraphrase)

Again, forgive me, there is a lot to address. I need to take these piece by piece.

As has been stated: *you* consider it offensive. We're sorry about that, but the majority of reasonable people would NOT consider it offensive. Therefore, it is NOT a customizable field violation. Again, it does not call for violence. It is not defaming the person named. It is not an ethnic slur. It does not relegate anyone into being deemed useless or inferior.

Again, if I were Jewish and I complained about something I percieved as a fascist slur, what measure do you have to tell me I should not be offended? The offender took the spirit of one-gone-West and came into my region.

If she want to stay in her region, then that is okay...I don't have a complaint. She did it to mine.

I realize, and I have told her repeatedly, that it could be a mistake. That whole "Clock to a Chinese national" isn't known by everyone. I let the offender know that it offended me. I let her know what would satisfy me, and I even told her that I could accept a different solution. I kept the door open. She called the mods on me, and I got a TG telling me to "knock it off" more or less.

You don't see it because you don't know my culture. Most Americans can't understand why Native Peoples want Kenniwich Man returned to rest. I am telling you now...raising your consciousness...that I AM MAD! (I know, I know, you get that).

I will address this again later, but the mod cited, correctly, that I will post as often as it takes. That is the reasoning behind a protest. It takes visibility. Raising consciousness to a differnt world-view takes LOTS of talking. And that cultural value, I would hope, is something that we share...that I tell you in detail why I am angry.

You're still jumping to conclusions.

You're still overreacting.

You're still expecting everyone else to subscribe to your personal beliefs while completely ignoring thiers.

You're claiming MLK is your hero, yet have no idea what Selma is in reference to.

You're taking examples that have nothing to do with the current situation and trying to apply them.

You're trying to apply analogies that are entirely ridiculous and not even close to the same level of 'offensiveness' in the minds of any rational person, one would think. 'In remembrance' and 'sodomize and eat a baby' are in NO way parallel statements. Get. A. Grip.

You're posting angry, trying to say no one is listening, when they are, but simply disagree - but you apparently refuse to do any listening yourself, just going on, and on, and on at length saying the same thing over and over again.

You're being completely unreasonable.

You need to step away, re-evaluate, apply some of that 'broadminded understanding' you seem to be accusing us of lacking, and learn that the fact that someone else does not believe as you do does NOT constitute 'malicious' acts on their part, nor does it make them ignorant, or blasphemous, or evil, or anything of the sort.

You're free to your opinion. So is everyone else here. The fact that they may not agree does NOT always call for an apology. Nor is a forced one any sort of apology at all.

No one is saying you don't have the right to be offended - you don't have the right to demand an apology for something your 'perception' tells you is off, but breaks no rules, nor can any willful, intentional slight be determined.

You are out of line here, and you need to do something about it.

Clarity achieved?

Forgive me for not knowing the technical term 'flaming'.

I honestly had no idea that such a thing constituted spamming.
Y'know, if you're going to lambast us for not following the rules of this game (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023), perhaps it would help if you were actually AWARE of the rules of this game (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023).

Flaming and spam are not "techncial terms". Look them up in the rules of this game (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023), why doncha?

It does not seem obvious that upsetting anyone was her aim. That it happened is regrettable, yes, but again, that is not the obvious intent.

It is not obvious. She is good with subtlty, but I know there is no way to prove this, so I won't push it.

What proof do you have that she insulted you? That she asked you to lay the case before the moderators and let them hear your case?

I am telling you the insult. I believed it fit the Terms as I interpreted them. If you choose not to believe me, then so be it. I know how I feel.

Now who's a racist?

This gets a lot of people. Being a 'racist' is about power. The offender and you have power. I do not. I have what little tools I have...my words...and no power to do anything else as you and the offender do. Like I posted above, everyone has prejudice...I do not deny that. The most regretable thing people are doing to MLK's words "I have a dream..." is closing their eyes to the inevitability that we all have prejudices. What makes one a racist is POWER. White people and white culture have POWER over non-whites...it is built into the fabric of American society. You, as a mod, are a racist. I, being male, am a sexist. There is no getting out of that. I do not hide my shadow from the offender in question. I talk...A LOT. That is my way. And when someone in power, who I have reasons to believe may be affiliated and/or sympathetic to the offender, tells me to "knock it off" then I have to question. You can talk back all you want. I will too. I think more dialog is the answer to racism...not shovelling it under the rug.

You are being ridiculously melodramatic about this, as well as being the only person present making racist remarks. No reasonable person would draw the parallel that because your opinion differs from a moderation decision, it's the white man coming down on you.

Protest can seem melodramatic. It is by its nature. And I charge that your so-called 'reason' is based upon a construction of Greco-Roman ideals that permeate deeper than you realize. When someone outside of your worldview takes a stand, it naturally makes no sense to you because the world you have been conditioned from birth to accept does not allow such inconsistancy. If you don't believe me, PLEASE read about tollerance and racism. My mentor on this was Dr. Jenette Rodriquez and Dr. Callahan, highly respected in their fields. If you still don't agree with me or the authoritative literature, then you can feel free to call me a racist.

And I tell you that from what we see, there were no offenses.
I don't think that there has been any injustice done. You believe this to be offensive. At least two of the mod team (myself and whomever made the call) do not think it is. We never swore that no one would ever NOT be offended on this site -- simply that we take *reasonable* steps to make sure that people do not go out of their way to be mean to each other. That does not appear to be the case here. There is. You've made a Getting help request and now you've made this very public demand for more explanation. The problem does not seem so much to no way to talk but no willingness to listen to the answer.

I will make a conscession here. What I reported does not fit into your rules. You tell me that it is okay to offend people as long as it does not look obvious. It is your ball...you are telling me to swallow the rules or go to some other game.

I made a "Getting Help" request at the behest of the offender. I thought we could settle it like adults. She went to get one of you to tell me to stop spamming. She asked me a question. I, figuring it was a legitimate question, answered. They called the cops on me. Call it what you will, I am not asking for your intervention. This is a rant. I want answers. I am asking them of myself...screaming out into the Void...maybe, if I'm lucky, might get you to try help me answer why this injustice occurs. I do not have much faith that an answer will ever come...it may be for The Beyond to decide. If you don't like my rant, I realize nothing is stopping you from using your POWER over me.

And your worldview apparently would have us punish someone for something that in no way is illegal, nor is against the rules. You can bewail your martyrdom all you like, but you won't be deleted unless you break the rules... just like FEC is not going to be punished for not breaking the rules.

My worldview is as it is, laid down by ancestors to be respected. If it punishes you through my words, then that is something you have to deal with in the way I have to deal with the offender's injustice. If you demand an apology...I will apologize. If you wish to ban me...ban me. I use that as an extreme...anticipating the worst because the worst HAS happened to shape the worldview of The People.

Again, I don't ask for FEC's deletion. All I ask is to shout from the mountaintops. If you could direct me as to what the mods constitute as spam, that will help so that I do not cross that boundary.

I really do appreciate the attention. You really don't need to, and yet, you are. I am sure I've mad you pretty angry yourself...anger has that way about it. Emotion is running high...I urge you to take what I say with a HUGE grain of salt. (Use plenty of water. :D )

Hey, maybe by tomorrow morning I will be more clear-headed about this. Cross your fingers, and, if any of you are praying people, I'd appreciate a prayer.

Thanks.

I can't seem to face up to the facts
I'm tense and nervous and I can't relax
I cant sleep 'cause my beds on fire
Don't touch me I'm a real live wire

(chorus)

You start a conversation you cant even finish it.
You're talkin a lot, but you're not sayin anything.
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed.
Say something once, why say it again?

--Talking Heads, Psycho Killer

Y'know, if you're going to lambast us for not following the rules of this game (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023), perhaps it would help if you were actually AWARE of the rules of this game (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023).

Flaming and spam are not "techncial terms". Look them up in the rules of this game (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023), why doncha?

Alright. Hang with me. It seems you all are getting as enflamed as I am. (of course that's just my perception, but...hey...we seem to be debating what reality is so...)

Ok...I am beginning to see what FEC was doing, encouraging me to post to you moderators. I figured she was sending me to someone who might be objective. Yes, I am cynical about that because of the things I've mentioned.

Frisbeeteria, I realize that the ones who make up the rules get to decide when they are broken. You have that power over me while my only hope is to rant. I'm doing that (obviously). To me 'flaming' is what a fire does and 'spam' is some sort of meat...um...I think. When applied to another field other than that original, that is technical jargon.

Now, I may be a Gen-X'er, but I didn't have the luxury of computers until later in life. I'm slow on the current definition.

However, and I do mean this in all earnest, I will look over the links you gave me. Maybe I'll find something. Maybe not.

Let me make this clear: more to myself...I want to type this out (my way of processing information) than to you. I'm sure if you care to look, I'll be contradicting myself.

What I seek from the NationStates moderators: the ability to exist and speak my mind...however rational or irrational the Powers That Be deem.

What I do not seek from the NationsStates moderators: any banning, threatening, or booting of either Yellowstone Valley or FEC.

Feel free to argue with me or do whatever...ignore me. I suggest the later because I know I tend to react....it's kind of like a rattlesnake...they don't want to strike, but will if they feel threatened.

I FEEL threatened. Yes, irrational. I don't dispute that. ...I have at least one more person to reply to.

What I seek from the NationStates moderators: the ability to exist and speak my mind...however rational or irrational the Powers That Be deem.Up until the point you break the rules, granted.

What I do not seek from the NationsStates moderators: any banning, threatening, or booting of either Yellowstone Valley or FEC.With same caveat as above, also granted.

However, for clarity's sake: You have stated that this situation offends you. Despite now four or five different Moderators from different backgrounds, not all of which are white or American, looking at it, none of us can see why it is offensive. No one else appears to be offended by it.

Hypothetical person A may be offended by the color blue. We will not ban the color blue due to that person's offense.

There are two possibilities here:

1) The user in question did not intend to offend anyone and therefore is completely innocent of everything except coincidentally offending you. This is a situation where you have to, to put it colloquially, suck it up.

2) The user in question did intend to offend you and only you and was so perfect in their application of subtlety that no evidence can be found, and none has yet been supplied, of this intent. Combined with your own statement--that you do not wish "any banning, threatening, or booting of either Yellowstone Valley or FEC" by us, the most mutually agreeable solution is for us to assume Possibility 1) and therefore take no action. Again, this puts you in the position of sucking it up.

Welcome to the Internet; a thicker skin will do you good.

I believe this discussion serves no further purpose. The second-stage review (five moderators reviewing the decision of one) is complete and finds the moderator in question to have asked appropriately. Continuing this line of inquiry here will be considered a demerit to your cause.

As per the One Stop Rules Shop, you may continue up the line with an email to adminATnationstates.net explaining your grievance in a request for Administrator review. That is, however, the end of the line and I can say with about 90% certainty that there will be no overturn in this case.

At any rate, we are done here. Attempts to follow through with your previous declaration to "post as often as it takes" will be treated as spamming and dealt with accordingly. Continuing to insinuate racism on our part despite our best attempts to get a broad series of viewpoints concerning this will be considered a defamatory ad hominem attack and dealt with appropriately. As we have absolved FEC of blame in this, continuing to insinuate or directly say that she is racist or otherwise manipulating things will be considered defamatory and dealt with appropriately.

It is my sincere and, despite the formal language, friendly recommendation that you drop this and get on with your life.

Not realizing the above post was made, I have "dropped" it. If you wish to see the full text, I will share upon your request.

Thank you.

What I seek from the NationStates moderators: the ability to exist and speak my mind...however rational or irrational the Powers That Be deem.

Before harping on about the freedom of speech you don't have here, I suggest reading the following.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/GMCMA/Other%20stuff/eoi20020729.jpg

From Elf Only Inn (http://www.elfonlyinn.net/) by Josh Sortelli.

I already saw it and took into account that in its composition you probably didn't see my post--no problem.

Anyway, the racism argument is defunct because over this medium you may as well be a half-African half-Chinese XY lesbian with a Habsburg lip and androgen insensitivity. FEC could be a full-blooded Aztec with a harelip and supernumerary digits. "Racism," in "an irrational bias against members of a particular racial group or groups," does not apply because as Frisbeteeria said previously this is all just pixels on a screen.

I disagree with you that just because you are male, you are sexist. I would say that because you are human, you are a little bit sexist and a little bit racist and a little bit ageist and a little bit religionist and so on and so forth. We all have these centric qualities based on our upbringing; it is only natural for humans--or any other animal--to associate that which one is used to as close, comfortable, and "us" whilst that which is alien to be strange, frightening, and "them." However, as humans and thus moral agents, we posess the free will to work past it.

We do not deny that you are offended; only you can make that statement because we cannot see your face (and even if we could, you could be acting). We merely assert that we cannot prove that offense was intended and thus can take no action; this is because that in our observation--and lacking any telegrams or regional board posts to the extent of "I did this to offend you and it's working buahahahaha"--the action FEC committed is of equal moral value of calling her nation "The Rememberance of Abraham Lincoln of."

First, Yellowstone Valley, you continually (and accurately) quote the FAQ. Please notice that offensive material is not considered against the rules. And you have the right to be offended. For that matter, people will hurt you. That is the real world.

People say offensive things, have offensive opinions, and can offend each other, on purpose or accidentally. This is the way of our world and the way of our forums. In order to be illegal, it has to fall under the other adjectives on this list (you seem to be pushing towards "obscene" or "malicious").

Malicious is always a difficult one to judge and several mods have weighed in and ruled that there isn't sufficient evidence to rule this as "malicious" behavior. I support this ruling.

Obscene? This does not approach "obscene".

So, we're left with "offensive" which as I've noted before, isn't against the rules.

So, Former English Colony hasn't broken the rules, and we won't punish them. For that matter, you haven't broken the rules, so we won't punish you.

Now, on to other matters. Your accusations of bias. Unfortunately, you really haven't provided me with any good evidence to work on. None of the moderators (unless I'm mistaken) had any idea of your ethnicity during the ruling, thus could hardly be biased against you. The greatest you could argue is "cultural ignorance", but as we didn't know your culture, we could hardly apply cultural standards to the ruling if we even desired to instead of ruling evenly across our entire player base. If I saw someone gift a clock to a Chinese player on these boards (and yes, I am fully aware of that), I would do nothing. It isn't against the rules, neither is remembering someone.

Finally, I'm going to step back a little from my role as "Administrator" and into my (related role) of making these forums run well and offer you a little advice.

Yellowstone Valley, when you didn't like a ruling you charged in with accusations of bias and strong pronouncements that you were going to be deleted for this. This isn't a good way to convince people of your correctness. Instead, it's a good way to get people angry and less willing to listen to you. For that matter, you don't need to be in a position of power to be "racist". You just need to be biased against people due to their "race". I've met racists of all types and stripes, some above me in power, some below. You're complaining that someone else isn't following your culture and want us to force them to? That's racist. We don't rule for you so you automatically assume that it must be because we're racist and we'll delete you? Sounds like you want to be persecuted.

Open your eyes. There are many other cultures around you. Some you'll get along with, some you won't. No one is telling you not to be offended, but just as you'd want them to respect your culture, you should respect theirs. Accept that rulings won't always go your way and it won't always be due to bias. That's the world, and that's fair. Finally, if you look to be offended, you will be. If I want, I can find offense in any of a hundred things done to me every day from how people don't properly bow when greeting me, to how they shake my hand wrong, do not walk in the correct location near me, offer me food that isn't appropriate, say "God bless you" when I sneeze (or they say nothing), comment on my astrological sign, do not meet my eyes while talking, do not lower their eyes to me while talking, and any of a number of other things. Yes, people do sometimes offend me, but I don't go seeking offense. Too many people I know (both friends and not) seek it, and inevitably, they find it.

Former English Colony is banned from your region so you don't need to interact with them. That seems like a reasonable solution to me.

I already saw it and took into account that in its composition you probably didn't see my post--no problem.

Thank you for hearing me, Scolopendra. I feel you have heard me, even if you disagree with me. I remain in disagreement with you, but the point is moot now.

Again, it is hard to explain. I highly doubt anyone here is a Rocky Boy Cree from Montana who grew up by Crow and Cheyenne reservations on the brink of poverty. My experiences are unique, and I admit my anger boiled over in a way I uncharacteristically expected.

I thank the moderators for taking the time to banter with a man blind with rage. If you were personally offended by what I said, I will do what you request to make amends if you need.

Like I said: hard to explain, but the 'spirit' (just take it as metaphor...hard to explain) of this issue has been put to rest. I have been released of whatever 'spirit' has enthralled me.

I cannot prove to you my sincerety. You do not know me. I have to trust that you do. I hope to prove it by remaining always honest, open, and sincere.

This is my last post. The spirit has been laid to rest.

Peace.

I really hate to do this...I'm eating my words. I tried another route, but it didn't work.

All I wanted to do was thank SelusaSecundus (sp? sorry) for hearing me as well. I feel a little talked down to by your words, but I deserved it.

Again, I am sorry for this...I posted once more, but I did want to thank the mod for hearing me.

I really hate to do this...I'm eating my words. I tried another route, but it didn't work.

All I wanted to do was thank SelusaSecundus (sp? sorry) for hearing me as well. I feel a little talked down to by your words, but I deserved it.

Again, I am sorry for this...I posted once more, but I did want to thank the mod for hearing me.

I fully understand. I drafted my post shortly before you posted "This is my last post" message and thus, the spirit of your message was not truly compromised by responding to my message.

I have seen so many people, both friends and not, eaten by their own desire to be a victim and to be a martyr that I have trouble sitting by when I see another headed towards the same path. Often, I must because I recognize that there is nothing that I can do or I recognize that my input would not be received well. The second half of my post was made in personal hope that you could learn from the mistakes that I have witnessed and not make them yourself.

A response is not necessary as I know that you consider this topic to be complete.

I had wished to ask this privately, but it seems that a more private way of contacting you, SalusaSecondus, is not evident to me. I have taken you last words as an invitation. And, so I don't start another thread, I have decided to ask my question here.

Trust me, everyone...I'm a bit more calm today. I apologized to everyone in The North Pacific, and offered to resign from the game. Despite a number of name-calling and insults, I have also recieved a few PM's that have made me think a bit more clearly.

Ok, that said, my question(s): When I started this post, I put it in General. Now, I could've been emotional enough to have posted it in Moderation, but I'm fairly certain I put it in General...more to just talk things out to myself (I think by typing). It was moved almost immediately to here.

I understand that is what happens...mod related stuff gets put here. As I look back, I can see how the moderators in this thread thought I was complaining to the moderators...probably making one of them warn me that I was flaming. I was going to complain about something else...it got turned into a me vs. mod thing. So, I need to apologize to all you mods. I accepted the ruling from the get go, that's why I moved away from TNP. My 'beef' was philosophical, not legal.

However, ...I don't know, call me paranoid (you won't be the first...LOL)... this got moved right quick, and certain birds have whispered that some of those who play the game also act as moderators. I just wonder if that is possible, or if the moderators have a complete 'hand's off' approach to the game.

Secondly, there appears to be a severe lack for my more 'unique' points of view. Is is alright to calmly, respectfully just write about my cultural perspectives in the General area? (Won't have anything to do with mods or TNP...I swear! :D ) One of my professors compared me to Kirkigaard...the sense of suffering, not the philosophy! LOL One of the things I'd like to post is Martin Luther King's Six Principles of Non-Violence, which helps to explain (in context) my reasoning and my percieved "insanity".

Again, thank you for hearing me, SalusaSecondus, even if you disagree with me and think I'm racist. I'm not as messed up as I seem...just mad. My pretty words, when backed up with emotion, only magnify the "drama" to make me sound worse than I am.

--YV

PS: GMC, I know there is no free speach gaurenteed here. I was not swearing. I've been angry, and didn't come off the perfect gentleman. I realize that you hold all of the cards, and that if I don't like the game, I can just shut up, roll over, and go away. You don't have to like my questions or rants. My words can cut deep. You are not an elected government. This is akin to a dictatorship, and I have to do whatever you tell me. I get no say, and you can censor me until my nose bleeds. Understood. Clear as crystal. You tell me nothing new. I only ask to be heard. I can demand to be heard. But in the end, you have power over me. You grant me a voice or you 'kill' me. Period. That makes neither of us right, though. (Did I mention my words flare dramatic? LOL)

Out of interest I have been following this discussion, so please allow me to make a response here even though I am not a mod.

I responded very early on that I thought this thread was out of place in General (because it was so obviously a moderation issue) and then deleted my comment when it was quickly moved to Moderation. It seemed right from the start that your concern (and the way you voiced it) was over an issue that was going to require input from mods, not so much from the rest of us. That being the case, this was the place for it, not in General.

My understanding is that yes, mods do sometimes read General, and also do have puppets with which they participate in other places, just like us humble regular folk. One of them spotted your thread (the title made it pretty clear that it WAS a Moderation issue) and moved it quickly, even before someone else gave them a notice here in Moderation about it. They don't do this to be sneaky or anything, they are just playing the game same as everyone else... and taking care of the business end of things when they have to. I am certain that seeing the title of your thread was enough of a clue that this issue needed to be responded to, and the best way to deal wit it would be here, in Moderation, rather than letting it get bogged down with everyones comments in General.

However, I think it would absolutely be ok for you to raise the issue in General as a GENERIC "this is how my culture feels about this issue, how does yours deal with it?" sort of discussion way. I would suggest that you make it strictly a hypothetical case, don't bring up this specific issue again (that would be seen as griefing FEC, I would think) but it is an issue that I have found to be somewhat interesting, and others might too. Different ways of honoring the dead would be an intriguing discussion... I would like to learn more myself about why your culture is opposed to using the name of a dead person, and perhaps you could explain that in greater detail. Perhaps too, you might find out about why someone would use the name of a dead person as an honor to them... while it is in direct opposition of your traditions, the reasons on both sides might be similar... it would be interesting to compare them.

P.S. Your P.S. was rather over dramatic... but remember, you (and I, and all of us) are guests here in Max's house. So we must play by the house rules or else go home. The mods do an admirable job of trying to interpret those rules for the best for everyone, but sometimes we end up on the wrong side of them, and then it is best to just say "Oh well, that one didn't go my way... I will just walk it off and come back when I am cooled down," or to go pay for your own forum somewhere that you can make the rules. Continuing to point out that you don't like how a ruling went against you even when it is obvious that the ruling was final looks petty and childish, and will have no good effects at all. I realize you KNOW this... and that you have said as much... but your PS did have the flavor of "I am getting my last licks in anyway." Sorry, didn't mean to lecture... just wanted to let you know what it looked like to someone not involved in the discussion.

Philosophy is appropriate material for the General Forum. However, the moment Moderation is discussed, that takes precedence and such topics get moved (or a section split out, if the tools work) to the Moderation Forum where the issue can be resolved.

Regarding the balance of our Mod/Player roles, you have it the wrong way around. Primarily, we are players, and we act as Moderators in the time we spare as unpaid volunteers. We can have role-play and UN puppets like everyone else, and indeed some play those sides of the game and debate with their main (Mod) nations.

Out of interest I have been following this discussion, so please allow me to make a response here even though I am not a mod...

Thanks for replying Botswavia. I do thank you for what you did and how you responded. Your post was thoughtful and respectful.

I was beginning to apologize to all the moderators one by one, but a public apology might be better (and quicker! LOL). In Montana, where I was born, there are sometimes wildfires. If you're fighting them...one minute you can be okay, and the next, the wind can shift and you can find yourself cut off and surrounded by flame. Somewhere along the line, reality and the game got mushed together.

I think that move to the Moderation made things worse, though. I didn't know I was moved until several moderators had weighed in...fed the paranoia! :eek: I was going to go on a rant, and suddenly... moderators! :confused: Hindsight is 20/20, though, I see it now...thankfully I can laugh a little. But only a little since I really ticked some people off...and that's nothing to laugh at. :(

I've wanted to talk about things for a while. I chose a bad time to start. :rolleyes: Usually, telling people about you should come before... LOL. I find it helpful. ;) But thank you too, Tactical Grace. I was reading a lot about the 'rules' and asked my question before getting to the part about who does what. Again...apologies all around, and I should probably pick up the bar tab.... :D

In a nutshell, I was taught four principles (cooresponding to cardinal directions), and one is a deep respect for all things equally because they all have equal spirits. An animal, tree or rock must be respected as much as any human being. Time is another very odd thing...Place is much more important (in fact, the Hopi language completely lacks tenses and concepts for time!). The Present isn't just 'now' but spans seven generations. (i.e. now = +/- 200 years!) One's 'spirit' is still here, even if not 'seen'. To put even Abraham Lincoln's name in the pre-title, like jewelry, is akin to going over to a friend, slicing off their hand, and hanging the bloody flesh around the offender's neck. It is a personal, knee-jerk reaction to me. The offender didn't know this...I tried to explain (poorly, as I was angry). The person's 'spirit' needed to be pacified again. Of course, since I had gone and gotten angry, I dragged that poor spirit back and forth across cyberspace until a kinder, wiser voice asked me to stop.

The offender suggested I contact the moderators. I did. They said no. I whined. I know that the offender is also a moderator, and so, my angry mind, coupled with the sudden move of the topic, thought, yes... conspiracy. (I can laugh now)

The moderators found that the offender did not break the rules. I agree. And I agree with you completely, Botswavia. It's Max's rules. I can play or go. And the rules aren't as bad as I dramatically put it. :P Always questioning authority, I always wonder if there's a better way, though, than "love it or leave it." I have an idea that sort of does both...that's why I quickly gave my view on the deceased to you here (I suffer from severe logorrhea, but I hear there's a pink liquid for that now. LOL :D )

Anywho...to make a long story longer, let me sum up: sorry moderators, bar and/or chocolate tab's on me for the next 24, Botswavia's invited, don't use the name of the deceased around certain Natives with short tempers, Max's ball, play or pay.

Oh, and the next time someone comes at you as mad as ... :upyours: :headbang: :gundge: ...don't tell them they are wrong or nut jobs. It's in the communications books and the really good salepeople know this: Just say, "I hear you say that you are angry." That is 90% right there. Scolopendra and SalusaSecondus did that, and that took a good deal of steam out of me. If you don't believe me, try it sometime...can't hurt. And I've polled four out of five dentists who prefer the term: "Please stop xyz" to the more degrading: "Knock it off!!!"

[Two cents, plus tax and a butt-load of interest]

And now we've degraded to emoticon abuse.

I think we're done here.