NationStates Jolt Archive

Creating a nation which looks similar to an excisting player is allowed, as long as you don't do anything malicious like making the person look bad, right?

I know creating a similar nation is a bit frowned upon, though I did not have any bad malicious intentions in mind when I made a puppet this afternoon. Proof of that being the reaction of the original nation who was not mad (I don't remember the correct wording, but he said something along the lines that he didn't know he was that popular). I answered him not to get his hopes up too much about getting a personal fan club. I also said to him I was planning to let the nation die, so he shouldn't worry, I wasn't planning to abuse it.

I'm an old-time player, not a n00b, I've been playing this for a couple of years (a bit over 3 years I presume), I know the rules, and I've been respecting them, never broken a rule. Now, what I'm asking is not to restore the nation, as I was already planning to let it die anyway, but a clarification on the rule I quoted and a mod-interpretation of the word "malicious", I'ld also want to know whether this thingy affects my so far clean criminal record?

It is possible that the person complained and thats why your puppet was deleted...

Whatever you do, don't give us the name of the puppet in question. We far prefer to exercise our psychic powers.

The puppet was Beichingburg, the original nation Belchingburg.

Correct, I did not want to supply any specific material right away, for a couple of reasons that is:

- Because that might attract unwanted comments from non-mods (no offence, Shazbotdom, yours was greatly appreciated, thank you), when I would like to have had a mod clarification.
Serious now, if must've though if you could find my main nation based on the beiching-puppet, it'ld be just as easy to find it using this puppet. I guess I though the mods were all-mighty anyway, guess not. They used to be though, times change :P

- Most importantly, I did really ask for a review of my case right away, because I'ld wanted to await a clarification of the rule first. First I wanted to know if my understanding of the rule is correct, only then I'll know wether to complain to be wrongfully deleted or not :)
I did not want to be another guy in the row to hear "you broke a rule" or "you cheated", I want to know what rule I supposedly broke.

As to my knowledge impersonating another player isn't strictly against the rules. Though "if the nations are being defamatory, then they'll be deleted" ( sirocco once said that (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=5448083&postcount=5)). Unless you're impersonating a moderator, off course, then you'll be deleted right away.

Correct, I did not want any supply specific material right away, for a couple of reasons that is:The easiest way to keep things anonymous would be a GHP report, I think.

Bump

Creating a nation which looks similar to an excisting player is allowed, as long as you don't do anything malicious like making the person look bad, right?
Malicious is in the eye of the beholder. If your intent is to confuse other players by pretending to be the other nation, most of us mods consider that to violate the 'malicious' clause.

Since we still haven't perfected Salusa's mind-reading device, we have to guess at your intent. Your fields were identical. I don't know what your behavior (posts, region choice, etc) was, but apparently the mod who deleted you thought it looked malicious. Thus, deletion.

OK, so I did my own research.

We already know the OSR-Thread says this on "impersonation":
Using similar names of nations or regions is illegal when done in a malicious manner. Malicious intent is a difficult call to make, so this must be considered on a case-by-case basis.

I found an old thread in which Neutered Sputniks made the following statement:
Impersonation of the Mods is not allowed for seemingly obvious reasons... Impersonation of other players is allowable as long as it does not become defammatory.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=5134863&postcount=8

Apparently Neut also said this once (this is more elaborate, but too bad there is no direct quotation):
General rule on impersonations is that it's OK as long as it's not to the defammation of a player. In other words, I could impersonate Kandarin there to gain intelligence. However, the instant I start harrassing Kandarin or begin to defame his character, it's gone too far.
The only exceptions being the Moderators - for somewhat (I hope) obvious reasons. Moderators are not to be closely impersonated as it can (and has in the past) cause(d) confusion.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8735248&postcount=23

I found a more recent thread in which Salusa confirms Neuts ruling as a precedent.
Neut, I'm just clarifying that in this particular thread, no precidents have been set. In fact I think that leaves you as the most recent precendent.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8863489&postcount=61


Thus, the act of pretending to be another player 'an sich' is not against the rules. I did not harass, defame, slander, flamebait or mocked another player's country, so I want to know what I did would count as "malicious" or "defamatory" enough to warant a deletion.

Thus, the act of pretending to be another player 'an sich' is not against the rules. I did not harass, defame, slander, flamebait or mocked another player's country, so I want to know what I did would count as "malicious" or "defamatory" enough to warant a deletion.

BUMP?

I guess you missed the 'at their discretion' bit that goes with all of this? You already got your answer from them, and your first quote there answers as well - 'case by case basis'. This time, you lost.

Taking someone elses nation and coming up with a near carbon copy, to some, is enough to warrant the 'malicious' or 'mockery' tag. After all, people put effort into their stuff to one degree or other - what gives you the right to come in and parody or copy it, for whatever purpose? I know I'd be irritated if someone did that to me (aside from the obvious jokes from some friends a while back that were all in good fun, and we all knew it).

I'm sure you feel you were in the right - apparently other people, some of which have the authority to solve these sorts of issues, disagreed. Like they've already told you, they can't psychically judge intent, they have to go on appearances. When you pull stunts like this, you run the risk of getting spanked for it, which you did. Still gonna quibble?

If you're concerned that an official or unofficial warning has been attached to your nation, Puppet nr 784512, the answer is no.

If not, then I'm wondering what the fuss is all about and why you NEED a clone of someone else's nation so badly.

If you're concerned that an official or unofficial warning has been attached to your nation, Puppet nr 784512, the answer is no.
Thank you.

If not, then I'm wondering what the fuss is all about and why you NEED a clone of someone else's nation so badly.
Well, Nationstates as a game is what you make of it, since 'an sich' it really isn't much more then picking an option at a daily issues.. The reason why, I don't know, just wanted to have a laugh, I guess. However, I didn't laugh "at" anyone (cos that'ld be mocking).

I guess you missed the 'at their discretion' bit that goes with all of this? You already got your answer from them, and your first quote there answers as well - 'case by case basis'. This time, you lost.
I can accept the nation got deleted, I just wanted a bit more clarification, as I believe I stated before.

Taking someone elses nation and coming up with a near carbon copy, to some, is enough to warrant the 'malicious' or 'mockery' tag. After all, people put effort into their stuff to one degree or other - what gives you the right to come in and parody or copy it, for whatever purpose? I know I'd be irritated if someone did that to me (aside from the obvious jokes from some friends a while back that were all in good fun, and we all knew it).
Just to be clear. I was not trying to pull a stunt there. According to my knowledge of the rules, and according to the rulings I quoted before, creating a similar nation 'an sich' is not against the rules. The question remains if the mods interpreted a "carbon copy nation" (having the same customable fields) as "malicious". And although it wasn't explicitely stated, the mods apparantly do, because I cannot remember doing something malicious during the few hours of its excistence.

I can accept the nation got deleted, I just wanted a bit more clarification, as I believe I stated before.


Just to be clear. I was not trying to pull a stunt there. According to my knowledge of the rules, and according to the rulings I quoted before, creating a similar nation 'an sich' is not against the rules. The question remains if the mods interpreted a "carbon copy nation" (having the same customable fields) as "malicious". And although it wasn't explicitely stated, the mods apparantly do, because I cannot remember doing something malicious during the few hours of its excistence.

Malicious is in the eye of the beholder. If your intent is to confuse other players by pretending to be the other nation, most of us mods consider that to violate the 'malicious' clause.

Since we still haven't perfected Salusa's mind-reading device, we have to guess at your intent. Your fields were identical. I don't know what your behavior (posts, region choice, etc) was, but apparently the mod who deleted you thought it looked malicious. Thus, deletion.

Emphasis mine. You -had- your answer. It was stated, quite clearly. No 'question remains'. The fact you seem to have difficulty either reading, comprehending, or accepting that answer that I can only guess wasn't phrased exactly as you would like it to be is well ... your problem, not the Mods.

Emphasis mine. You -had- your answer. It was stated, quite clearly. No 'question remains'. The fact you seem to have difficulty either reading, comprehending, or accepting that answer that I can only guess wasn't phrased exactly as you would like it to be is well ... your problem, not the Mods.

Perhaps you did not read Neut's general rule on impersonations: "it's OK as long as it's not to the defammation of a player. In other words, I could impersonate Kandarin there to gain intelligence."

In the example he gave about Kandarin I think we can clearly speak of a case where the purpose it to "confuse other players by pretending to be the other nation" and this would be legal he says. This conflicts with the interpretation of Frisbeetantia who says pretending to be the other nation already violates the malicious clause.

I concluded the mods apparantly now use a more stricter rule. As I don't recal doing anything bad, it seems to me that the fact of creating a similar nation, a look-a-like if you will, is forbidden. And I'm fine with that. It's not like I'm continuesly making lookalike-natons.

Please, let us end this discussion now, as I didn't plan to post anything in here anymore.

Perhaps you missed that rules grow and change on this site, as happens with forums that are constantly evolving. Perhaps you also missed that Fris is a CURRENT Moderator with CURRENT authority, whereas Neut is not. You stated you hadn't been answered. I pointed out you had. Your interpretation of the rules, or mine, isn't what gets things decided - the current Moderators' interpretation does. Previous comments by others, Moderator or not, aside. Unless you're now going to retroactively claim you were trying to infiltrate somewhere, rather than 'just having a laugh', your example also doesn't hold. Nothing done here contradicted any stated rules so far as I can see.

One of the Moderators decided your copycat nation was inappropriate. It's been stated repeatedly many things, such as this, are handled on a case-by-case basis. You quoted that fact from the OSRS, so it's odd you keep missing crucial key. The fact you claim it wasn't malicious or inflammatory or mockery is entirely beside the point. Case-by-case, Moderator discretion. Pretty simple.

For you to argue semantics, pretend not to have seen the answer you were given, and carry on over something that supposedly had no real point is well, silly. Glad you're 'fine with that', and that it's all cleared up. Moving on. ;)

I only wanted a bit of clarification from a mod, just that. I said before I wanted to avoid comments from wannabe-mods, or non-mods wanting to help. Sorry to say, but saying that I "lost and should get over it" and stop "quibbling" didn't really help. I'm still to allowed to ask a question, yes?

I didn't pretend it hadn't been answered, just read the final paragraph as one whole; in the next sentence I by concluded that although it wasn't explicitely stated it's been outlawed. I was planning to leave it with that.
And regarding that example, it does make sence, as it shows "confuse other players by pretending to be the other nation" does not constitute not an offence. It's doesn not state gaining intelligence is the only reason. It says it's when you start harrassing or defaming his character it'ld be an offence. If you don't agree, then let's just agree to disagree, and leave it with that.

I know, case by case, at their discresion,.. so it has been decided. So, please could someone just lock this thread?