NationStates Jolt Archive

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11311956&postcount=10

At the bottom of the linked post GMC says that players can't request Mods to stay out of a thread in Moderation in their official capacity.

This brings out a reflexive response in me. Why?

Did I miss an old ruling somewhere? I re-read the stickies in this forum, including the relevant section of the OSRS, and couldn't find anything indicating that players were barred from making such requests.

Granted, there's nothing I saw to indicate that Mods are required to accede to such requests, but I also saw nothing to indicate that they cannot accede to such requests if they choose to do so, as Hack did in the thread where the linked post is located.

When it comes down to it, I thought one of the points of this forum was that players could make requests of the Mods in addressing rules violations.

Just because there has never been a statement of the fact, does not mean it does not exist.

It is common sense, really. Players cannot be given the right to bar specific members of Moderation staff from handling their requests. Aside from the patently obvious immaturity, were we obliged to step aside in response to such requests, you would have absurd situations where players cherry-pick the Moderators who are permitted to repond, on the grounds of perceived bias on the part of others.

So no, whether we officially respond to a thread here or not, is completely at our discretion alone.

When it comes down to it, I thought one of the points of this forum was that players could make requests of the Mods in addressing rules violations.

You could ask a specific Mod to explain one of their actions or clarify a remark, which they truthfully aren't obligated to do, as TG noted. You can't, however, deny a Mod the right to act upon Moderation. A Mod is a Mod is a Mod. You want Moderation in any and all forms, you get whoever responds first, second (etc) and all the way up to last, whether you want that Mod or not.

I can see HotRodia's point.
Asking a mod to recuse him/herself is not the same as a mod recusing him/herself nor is it the same as forcing a mod to recuse him/herself.

I can see where it might be fair and reasonable to ask a given mod to recuse him/herself from a given issue.

I can also see where this activity by players would tend to be constantly abused if encouraged, and in worst cases lead to playing one mod against another.

Since recusing one's self is at the discretion of the individual moderators perhaps the process should be discrete as well?

My suggestion to moderators would be this:
Dont even entertain recusing your individual selves from any given issue on the basis of bias unless the request comes via a "getting help" request or telegram. In that way you wont be opening the floodgates nor eradicating those few requests that might actually be reasonable.

It is common sense, really. Players cannot be given the right to bar specific members of Moderation staff from handling their requests. Aside from the patently obvious immaturity, were we obliged to step aside in response to such requests, you would have absurd situations where players cherry-pick the Moderators who are permitted to repond, on the grounds of perceived bias on the part of others.In a situation like the thread referenced, doesn't that create the perception of bias though? It wasn't a cherry-picking request to get the answer wanted; rather, it was a request that a mod who was directly involved in the action in question not make a ruling on the appropriateness of his original action.

Since recusing one's self is at the discretion of the individual moderators perhaps the process should be discrete as well?

My suggestion to moderators would be this: Dont even entertain recusing your individual selves from any given issue on the basis of bias unless the request comes via a "getting help" request or telegram.My suggestion would be that in a situation where a mod was participating in a player hat and suddenly switched to a mod hat, they automatically recuse themselves from any subsequent ruling requests to avoid the appearance of impropriety. The issue doesn't come up that often and there are enough mods that one sitting out on a question isn't going to create an undue burden.

Whoa, whoa, hang on, ladies and gentlemen.

First off, when you ask for a Mod, be it getting help, within the Moderation subforum or whatever, you do not pick the Mod. It falls to whoever is there or first arrives on the scene, so to speak.

The Mods are neutral and unbiased. You can, of course, ask that another Moderator review the action, but I doubt this would do anything. The Mods generally are reading from the same script and have the same, what's the word? Mindset regarding actions.

The Mods are doing their jobs. That means, I must remind you all, giving up their personal time and their sanity to do this. Got that? They do this on their own time as volunteers. Their own wellbeing takes second place as the defenders of the rules of NS.

They do not have an agenda, they do not have biases and this is certainly not a democracy. The Mods rule as much as precedent and other rules allow and when the subject isn't covered, they use their own common sense.

The Mods are one entity, not a bunch of people. They have a shared brain, basically.

I think one might also wish to look at the reasons given. Enn indicated his reasoning for the request was because Hack had participated in the thread as a player when the mod action happened. Now, I think that outside the Nuts&Bolts section, you would be hard pressed to find any threads where there were a significant number moderators who actually participated as a player in the thread. I don't think it's unreasonable to think "he was involved in the debate, there is a chance he's (unintentionally) biased because of it." - not towards the player, but towards the argument.

Asking a mod to recuse him/herself is not the same as a mod recusing him/herself nor is it the same as forcing a mod to recuse him/herself.

This is also relevant. Asking a mod to recuse themselves is not the same as saying the must recuse themselves and certainly leaves the door open for Hack (in this instance) to reject the request. If there had been a list of 10 moderators who couldn't talk, I'm sure more than one of them would've said "go to hell" to the request and jumped in anyway.

The Mods are neutral and unbiased. You can, of course, ask that another Moderator review the action, but I doubt this would do anything. The Mods generally are reading from the same script and have the same, what's the word? Mindset regarding actions.

Just because mods are unbiased doesn't mean their understanding of the rules are the same. In this case, Sal's understanding of the term was different from GMC's and he felt the difference in understanding was enough to warrant a reversal of the action. There were also arguments of whether GMC should've been the one that handed out the ban considering what was said - Sal said it would've been best if GMC had consulted another. In both cases, Hack sided with GMC.

I make this point simply to say that different mods have different opinions about the rules. In fact, all 3 of them really had a different opinion even though GMC and Hack each had the same idea on what the ruling should've been.

They have a shared brain, basically.
It's Max's. Poor bastard.


Back on topic, recusal is built in to the Appeals process (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9530191#post9530191) already. We're also bright enough to step aside when we're personally involved, and bright enough to tell the difference between personal posts and modly posts. We also routinely discuss contentious issues among ourselves, and the final posted answer may well be the combined consensus of up to half a dozen of us, whomever may post it.

We've had this covered for years now. There really isn't any need to make it more formal than it already is.

Back on topic, recusal is built in to the Appeals process (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9530191#post9530191) already. .

Sorry I missed this bit of the rules. I withdraw my earlier reccomendation. On the basis that it was stoopud.

It is common sense, really. Players cannot be given the right to bar specific members of Moderation staff from handling their requests. Aside from the patently obvious immaturity, were we obliged to step aside in response to such requests, you would have absurd situations where players cherry-pick the Moderators who are permitted to repond, on the grounds of perceived bias on the part of others.

I wasn't talking about players having a right to bar anything, just a right to make a request.

Like you, I see players having the right to pick and choose which Moderators deal with their case as a serious problem.

On the other hand, I don't see that giving them the right to request it if they feel it is necessary is such a problem. Players have always been able to request a specific action on the part of a Moderator, from what I've seen.

For example, a player can post in Moderation and ask for a thread to be locked. That doesn't mean that the Mod has to lock it, of course. They can move/delete/edit or whatever they think appropriate. But players can request it, and that seems to be working fine.

Similarly, I don't see it as a problem to allow players to request that a particular Mod or Mods recuse themselves from a case. It's not like y'all have to step out just because a player asks it.

So no, whether we officially respond to a thread here or not, is completely at our discretion alone.

And that's how it should be, IMO.

There's a big difference between allowing players to ask for things and allowing them to dictate Moderator action.

I'm perfectly fine with the former, and firmly opposed to the latter.

The Mods are neutral and unbiased.

The Mods are not neutral. In fact, they have a very specific agenda, and that's rules enforcement. I prefer it that way, really.

And of course the Mods are biased, at least on occasion. We all are, and often without realizing it. The good thing is that the NS Mods are generally wise enough to know when they're biased (or potentially could be without realizing it because of personal involvement) and avoid making rulings in those cases.

In my not even close to humble opinion, a good Mod admits to their biases and avoids letting it cause problems rather than pretending that they have no bias.

Okay, thanks to HotRodia for bringing this up. I wasn't given a chance to respond to GMC's statement in that thread as it was locked immediately after his post. I wasn't going to say anything, but as it's been raised I would like to make my intentions clear.

I made what I believed to be a simple request.

I didn't mean to imply that Hack couldn't respond to my query. What I meant was that I would personally prefer it if another mod, not already part of the discussion in the original thread, made an official ruling on the matter. Sal did so, without saying anything about my request re Hack. I'm not claiming that makes me immune on the matter.

GMC then posted a response that made no reference to Sal's ruling other than a simple 'the matter is resolved', instead appearing to be attempting to justify his/her decision to ban Eco. Then came his/her instruction to me, and the thread was locked.

You're quite welcome, Enn. :)

I just thought it was an interesting point that should be addressed, and didn't want to go through the hassle of trying to get the thread re-opened so I could make the point.

It's Max's. Poor bastard.


Back on topic, recusal is built in to the Appeals process (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9530191#post9530191) already. We're also bright enough to step aside when we're personally involved, and bright enough to tell the difference between personal posts and modly posts. We also routinely discuss contentious issues among ourselves, and the final posted answer may well be the combined consensus of up to half a dozen of us, whomever may post it.

We've had this covered for years now. There really isn't any need to make it more formal than it already is.

I could add that the Mods here have been doing this forum for quite a while, and it appears pretty even handed to me.