NationStates Jolt Archive

I think Undelia crossed the line by posting this (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10454000&postcount=92):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturnn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Perhaps you should all read that word for word and comprehend it.
You have no idea how angry you just made me.

Jews do not a monopoly on the holocaust and it deosn't give them the right to demand the support of the West for all eternity. The world would probably be a lot more peacful today if the Nais had been succsesful, and certainly a lot less annoying.
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I still cant believe that so many people can be ignorant enough to believe it didnt happen or other rubbish... it makes me sad and I hope a trusty mod will jump on in there and either shut some of them up (esp the racists and ethocentrists like this fellow: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10454424&postcount=119) and pershaps the discussion will become more intelligent. OR there is always the option of closing the thread really.. its the call of the Mods but I just wish the world would turn around a bit..

Damn it. I think this guy is from Stormfront, a white neo-nazi forum. They started cursing Jews at another online game I play, and I found their website. I saw a forum thread, and apparently these neo-nazis took a liking to nationstates, and are playing it. I even recognized some of their signatures from ones in this forum.

Stormfront people have a right to play NS; it's just another forum.

That said, I don't think Undelia is a neo-Nazi or anything, and he wasn't denying the Holocaust, even if his comments are a little over the line.

Stormfront people have a right to play NS; it's just another forum.

That said, I don't think Undelia is a neo-Nazi or anything, and he wasn't denying the Holocaust, even if his comments are a little over the line.
Have you seen Stormfront? It's disgusting. 1000th people calling for the destruction of the Jews, Blacks, Asians, Gays, etc. And they call themselves Christian. Those bastards deserve no respect from anyone, and I hope Max Barry will decide to ban them if he finds out.

Yes, I have seen Stormfront. They have a 'debate' section I used to frequent; I am now IP banned from their site. I hate them, passionately.

But why should they be planned from playing the game, so long as they don't break the rules? No swastikas in flags, no griefing opposed regions, no trolling on the forums...if they play by the rules, then I think banning them for association with a disagreeable site is a little out there.

Yes, I have seen Stormfront. They have a 'debate' section I used to frequent; I am now IP banned from their site. I hate them, passionately.

But why should they be planned from playing the game, so long as they don't break the rules? No swastikas in flags, no griefing opposed regions, no trolling on the forums...if they play by the rules, then I think banning them for association with a disagreeable site is a little out there.
I assume you haven't see a few of their signatures on this site. They are very, very racist. Also, try deleting your cookies if you want to keep fighting them. A lot of times sites will actual be downloading cookies into your database, and claim to be IP banning you. This happened to me once. I know that because when I was banned, I wasn't immediatly unable to see the site itself. They had to let the cookies download.

If they have illegal signatures, report them.

Max is well aware of Stormfront and is well aware that their members occationally come to our site.

He's also aware that supression and censorship of ideas is not the way to deal with people like neo-Nazis. Driving them underground simply causes them to use sites like Stormfront as echo chambers with everyone agreeing with everyone else.

By allowing people with... unpleasant... worldviews to post on our forums, he also allows them to have those worldviews directly challanged, debated, and shown to be tattered dellusions.

We have never banned neo-Nazis just because of their political or social beliefs. If they play by the rules, they can believe whatever the hell they want. They can even discuss it on our forums. Granted it's harder to debate a hateful ideology without breaking the rules, but it has been done before. Paratoga comes to mind, for instance.

I don't think Undelia was being racist. I think he was just saying that the holocaust affected other groups as well as jews, and that in his view, Zionism is not justified by the holocaust. The comment in bold was accurate in a way - there wouldn't be so much anger in the world if it weren't for the existence of Israel.

If Undelia stopped being so angry all the time and just stated his views calmly and in a non-inflammatory manner, he wouldn't be in this trouble.

I never said we should ban all neonazis. I absolutely abhor cenorship. However, saying the world would be less ANNOYING, to my mind, is trolling.

Great answer BTW, Hack.

Max is well aware of Stormfront and is well aware that their members occationally come to our site.

He's also aware that supression and censorship of ideas is not the way to deal with people like neo-Nazis. Driving them underground simply causes them to use sites like Stormfront as echo chambers with everyone agreeing with everyone else.

By allowing people with... unpleasant... worldviews to post on our forums, he also allows them to have those worldviews directly challanged, debated, and shown to be tattered dellusions.

We have never banned neo-Nazis just because of their political or social beliefs. If they play by the rules, they can believe whatever the hell they want. They can even discuss it on our forums. Granted it's harder to debate a hateful ideology without breaking the rules, but it has been done before. Paratoga comes to mind, for instance.
I can understand that. But I have seen a signature saying, I quote "Guns don't kill people. Dangerous miniroties do," on Nationstates. That matches one I saw in Stormfront. Isn't that breaking the rules? Shouldn't they be banned for that.

I can understand that. But I have seen a signature saying, I quote "Guns don't kill people. Dangerous miniroties do," on Nationstates. That matches one I saw in Stormfront. Isn't that breaking the rules? Shouldn't they be banned for that.
So if they have an offensive signature report it. Can you see the difference? A 'normal' person can have an illegal signature: that's an offence. A Klan member can have a sig saying "I love puppies": that's not an offence. Hack isn't saying neo-Nazi sentiments are allowed; just that the people themselves are not automatically censored for their beliefs, but instead judged by their actions.

So if they have an offensive signature report it. Can you see the difference? A 'normal' person can have an illegal signature: that's an offence. A Klan member can have a sig saying "I love puppies": that's not an offence. Hack isn't saying neo-Nazi sentiments are allowed; just that the people themselves are not automatically censored for their beliefs, but instead judged by their actions.
The problem is, I saw it before I realized it was meant to be racist, and thought it was meant to be a joke. I can't remeber the name of the user, now.

I think Undelia crossed the line by posting this (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10454000&postcount=92):

OMG this person should be made to spend an entire day with a guide touring the concerntration camp at Dachau. Much like I believe any person who says AIDS is God's revenge on homosexuals should have to spend the day volunteering at an AIDS/HIV Hospice.

Only problem with this kind of person is they will never listen to the other side of the debate and usually post this kind of stuff to get others all stirred up so the best thing to do once he has been reported is ignore his ignorant ass.

If you see something, report it. There's 119k nations, nations after all. Even if only 1% post, that's still over 1000 possible signatures bouncing around out there.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if it matches a signature on Stormfront. I'm sure there's a Stormfront member who likes Switchblade Symphony out there. If s/he posts the same lyrics on their sig that I have in mine, that doesn't instantly make my signature illegal.

To be blunt, Stormfront is a red herring here. What happens on that site is irrelevent to what happens here. If a signature is illegal, it's illegal because it violates our rules; not because some skinhead is sporting it on another site.

If you see something, report it. There's 119k nations, nations after all. Even if only 1% post, that's still over 1000 possible signatures bouncing around out there.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if it matches a signature on Stormfront. I'm sure there's a Stormfront member who likes Switchblade Symphony out there. If s/he posts the same lyrics on their sig that I have in mine, that doesn't instantly make my signature illegal.

To be blunt, Stormfront is a red herring here. What happens on that site is irrelevent to what happens here. If a signature is illegal, it's illegal because it violates our rules; not because some skinhead is sporting it on another site.That's not the point. The sig is inherently racist.
Edit: I'm not going to get into this arguement again. If anyone cares to see my prevous arguement, go here: http://s3.invisionfree.com/nationstates/index.php?showtopic=1580

I totally agree with the origional post, weather it sounds racist or not. It just seems more reasonable to me.

That's not the point. The sig is inherently racist.
Actually, I'm almost certain that's a joke from a TV show. I think almost everyone would take it as a joke.

Actually, I'm almost certain that's a joke from a TV show. I think almost everyone would take it as a joke.
Not once you put it into context.

But i guess, come to think, he shouldnt have said "Jews" he should have said "Jews, Gays, Non-conformists, and many more." It wasn't quite right that he singled "Jews" out of all other groups.

p.s. how can you jump to the conclusion of "NeoNazi" or "Racist"? That was just his opinoin on historical poitics, weather you agree with it or not.

But i guess, come to think, he shouldnt have said "Jews" he should have said "Jews, Gays, Non-conformists, and many more." It wasn't quite right that he singled "Jews" out of all other groups.

p.s. how can you jump to the conclusion of "NeoNazi" or "Racist"? That was just his opinoin on historical poitics, weather you agree with it or not.
Guess I might be a little biased, seeing as I had relatives in a Concentration Camp.

Guess I might be a little biased, seeing as I had relatives in a Concentration Camp.

I'm sorry to hear that. But oddly enough i try to keep an open mind to opposing "right thing to do" opinions, because i had many "Nazi" soldier ancestors or relatives. One being a communistically viewed person, who was forced into becoming Nazi or being in a Concentration Camp.

I'm sorry to hear that. But oddly enough i try to keep an open mind to opposing "right thing to do" opinions, because i had many "Nazi" soldier ancestors or relatives. One being a communistically viewed person, who was forced into becoming Nazi or being in a Concentration Camp.
That is different. Being a german in the time of Hitler meant you were forced to support the Nazis or die. But, now, it's just incredibly idiotic and racist to support Nazism.

Guess I might be a little biased, seeing as I had relatives in a Concentration Camp.

Not always. My grandfather (who is still alive) still supports the Nazi form of government. He's proud of having shaken Hitler's hand, fought in the war and just supporting the government that Germany once had. I look up to his confidence and courage to even say something like that to anyone, let alone all of his family.

No offence to you, your relatives, or your thoughts.

Not once you put it into context.Which you haven't provided. Your rant on the off-site is amusing, but wholly irrelevent. If you stumble onto the sig again and can actually link it, be my guest. Until that point, this is a discussion on something that may not even exist any more.

Actually, I'm almost certain that's a joke from a TV show. I think almost everyone would take it as a joke.

It's from Family Guy.