Whittier---
31-01-2006, 20:05
Hey what's up?
About a week or two back, I tried to log into my main nation, Whittier--. Thinking it was a glitch in the system, since I had not done anything wrong it was only natural to think it was a glitch, I checked the jolt server. And I got the following message:
You have been forum banned for one week for puppetwanking, obscene nation name, obscene thread topic, and using a picture of real people to depict a rapist. The ban will be lifted on January 24, 2006.
I sent a telegram to the GHP. Asking when using puppets in my own thread became illegal on NS forums, that the mods had reviewed the nation name awhile back and found it to be ok, that there was nothing graphic (violent wise or sexual wise) in the the thread. And that I was not aware of the rule that using pictures to depict fictional people was now illegal.
The response I got was "Naked-Teenage-Girls has always been an obscene name. The use of pictures of real people to depict rapists has always been illegal. It can be construed as defamatory."
I was confused by both statements. But then I felt bad cause I realized I had used a picture of a black person to depict a typical rapist a few days after MLK day had passed. I felt really bad about the timing and thought I had done something thoughtless and insensitive.
So I waited for the forum ban to lift. Cause you cannot search for a thread if you cannot get on the forum. So as soon as the ban lifted, I began looking for the thread from a few months back where the moderators had said that the name "Naked-Teenage-Girls" was ok. But I found that most of the stuff was now in the archives. So I figured, the mods are probably too busy to do an archive search. So I went into the archives. And I found the thread. But I found some other interesting links. So I looked for stuff on puppetwanking and nationnames and thread content.
For the first related charge, the one of puppetwanking, I was able to find the following threads.
I http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-367508.html in this one, it was stated that you are allowed to have multiple puppets in your region/alliance. It noted that some people think badly of those who use puppets to increase national military strength. It did not say anything about using puppets being against the rules.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-380130.html is a thread where it is stated that having multiple nations is not an offense.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-399821.html it was ruled that the use of puppets in threads was up to the thread author.
In fact:
Cogitation
23-02-2005, 2:22 AM
What you found out that both nations have the same e-mail. And both of us use the same computer. And I told him to write that post.
And US good job on showing me the true. (Ain't going to say it because it would be a flame)
Some roleplay authors do not allow the use of puppets. They may impose such a condition and we Moderators will honor it. If you an another person use the same computer, then you two are indistinguishable.
--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
As is known, I have never had a problem with people using puppets in the threads I create. I would like to know how using my nation in a thread, created by my puppet could be an offense of any rules as stated in previous mod rulings and in the OSRS (One Stop Rules Shop).
The only place where I found that puppets are illegal is in the general forum:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-416992.html
As for the issue of the obscene nation name, I found the thread where it was ruled to be an ok name. But I researched the archives further to get a better handle on what the mods consider obscene name.
Since that link is on my region page which, at the time I am typing this, I cannot currently access I will first refer to rulings of the mods that I saved to word document. Just the links and what they dealt with.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-364956.html where a nation was deleted apparently for referring to one's rearend. Though it could also have referred to a donkey. Donkey's are often referred to as (the word is contained in the thread, since I don't know if using it here would count against me). But it seemed to the nation owner had the other definition in mind.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-359655.html though this deals with region names and not nation names I thought it might be applicable. Profanity is not allowed in region names. Because nation names are not debateable, I would assume it is not allowed in nation names either. Would that be correct? Or am I wrong in assuming?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-365834.html a region was renamed by a mod, because it used profanity in its title. (I found a lot of cases of mods having to deal with nations/regions with profanity in their titles. What is with people and profanity in titles? Is there like some kind of popular fetish with profanity around here or something?)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-375651.html nation names that refer to or appear to refer to reproductive organs are banned cause they are obscene. This is good clarification of the obscenity rule.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-377944.html states that if a nation name has the appearance of intending to refer to a private part, it is considered obscene and thus illegal to use on NS.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-377998.html I guess this nation name was ok?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-379515.html nation names cannot violate people's privacy.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-379745.html whether a nation name is obscene is highly dependent on context.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-384755.html specifically stating that profanity can't be used in nation names.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-388081.html the nation name Republican_s_uck was ruled to be illegal. Was it because the intent of the owner was to flame or troll?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-403139.html whether a nation's name is obscene is dependent on intent.
This is the thread where the moderators said it was ok to use the name:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-420418.html
The nation name, Naked-Teenage-Girls, used no profanity, did not violate the privacy of a third person, nor did it refer to private parts of the human body. Nor was it, as the mods know who have been on NS awhile probably know, intended to refer to such. As I have stated over and over again, in telegrams, the name is meant to be joke name. A few months ago, after discussing it, the moderators found the name to be within the rules. They did say I had to change the currency and national animal which I did. The currency was changed to platinum and the national animal was changed to somethingsaurus. In fact, just before the thread in question, I had posted another thread, a factbook thread that stated that despite the nation name, nudity itself was actually illegal in the nation due to laws passed by the communists. Maybe its in the archives. The factbook should give something of my intent also. NTG was supposed to be a farsicle (spelling?) name, and the nation itself was supposed to be one of those nations where tourism was one of the main industries.
As regards thread content:
This threw me off because there was no explicit violence or graphic sex involved. There was no profanity in the thread title. So I searched the archive to find out how the thread topic could be obscene. It was about a nation that had no army and very little police because it had no experience with crime. Then a criminal comes along and the nation, because of its lack of readiness to deal with crime, has to ask for outside help in catching the culprit. I still can't see how that would be obscene.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-362812.html threads depicting sex acts are banned from the general forum cause that one has to be pg 13 for 13 year olds.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-363696.html though swastikas can't be used as nation flags you can use them in the forums. My question is if that is true, then is it permissable to use virgins as currency in the forums too?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-364827.html can't use offensive words in thread titles.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-365254.html it allowable to parody public officials in threads.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-366181.html threads titles are allowed to refer NAZI's and racist references.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-366248.html threads are allowed to refer to female sexual slavery but they cannot be explicit or detailed.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-370511.html descriptive violence is illegal on the forums. NC-17 material is frowned upon. R rated stuff is allowed as long as it labeled so on the title. Mods will not review proposed posts. Instead, people who post them will be deleted? Not clear.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-373275.html personal attacks and demonization of whole groups of people are not allowed on the forums. What if one of your characters has that kind of personality though?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-374310.html deals with thread topic titles. Fris. States that misleading and derogatory topic titles are a no no.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-379605.html subtle references to sex are allowed, but gratuitus sex is not pg 22 of moderator archives.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-395843.html no explicit content. Rape is very restricted. You can mention it after the fact or alluded to so people know what’s going to happen (written in pg manner?), it can be used as a valid part of rps but you cannot have a thread that focuses on it. If it does you will be scrutinized and not given any slack. You should also put a warning on your thread if your are going to have graphic content. Pg 25
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-397898.html Henry and Bob’s Sex Slave are permissible topic titles.
No offensive words were used in the topic thread title or subject. There was no descritive sex or violence. Just references after the fact. There was no demonization of any whole group of people. The title itself was not false or derogatory. Though subtle references are allowed, there was no depiction of sex. Just a reference to a violent crime that the nation was not ready to deal with on its own.
In fact there was no explicit content. The crime involved in the rp did involve rape. But it did not, and was not meant to focus on, the act of rape. It was meant to focus on the nation needing foreign assistance to deal with crime, which they've never had to deal with before. The subject of rape was just meant to be representative of all violent crimes. I used a random number generator to choose which crime to use as the problem requiring international police assistance. It was chosen randomly. I didn't think there would be a big deal about it as long as there was no graphics or explicity content and as long as the thread was not going to be focused on it. Because I had no intent of allowing the thread to be explicit or graphic, and it was not, I did not think there would be a need for a warning on the title.
I know you guys keep good records and, while you deleted the thread from the forum, you have a copy of it somewhere that you can refer to. If I am wrong, can you please show me where I am wrong at? The thread title was "Rapist on the loose" a benign title.
The thread referred had only one picture that was used in it. In past threads, some people have occasionally used pictures of real people to depict fictional characters. I thought that since such pics were used to depict fictional national leaders, they could also be used to depict fictional commoners.
Searching the archives the only thing I found in reference to the use of pictures, was this:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-395464.html pics are held to higher standard than text is, pg 25. If you want your government or characters to look like person in pics keep them to headshots. The image was removed.
I was not aware of the headshot rule. But it does say you are allowed to use pics of real people to depict fictional characters as long as you limit them to headshots.
I saw another thread that said that fansite pics are not permissable either because they intend to allure the mind toward body parts, unless you limit them to headshots. But I lost the thread :(.
But I still feel bad about the timing of the pic. Whether it was a headshot or not, the timing was just plain wrong. I've never paid much attention to holidays or anniversaries. To me, all days of the year are the same.
I realize the mods are very very busy people, which is why I searched the archives to find this stuff.
If it is possible, I would like that Whittier-- be restored. And that Naked-Teenage-Age girls also be restored. And also, the thread if possible. If the mods decide the title is not permissable, maybe it can restored with a different title like "Criminal on the loose" or "Nation unprepared for crime". Also, without the pic. If I thought the pic would be a problem I would not have used it and I regret using it now.
It is important for me to get Whittier-- back. Because I've been walking on tightrope. To the point of drafting my posts on word on then editing them to make sure they were appropriate to the forums. Because I didn't want to lose anymore nations after I lost my previous one. And I was being careful to follow the rules cause I don't want to be banned from the site, and these recent deletions hit me out of nowhere from left field. If you decide that Naked-Teenage-Girls is now considered offensive I will respect. But, I would like to get Whittier-- back, cause I was not aware that any rules were being violated. I apologize that it took so long for me to ask, but I needed to take some time to try and get the facts straight.
Thanks for your time.
Also,while I am here, in another recent thread, one of the moderators, said that the NS definition of obscenity was the same as the US Supreme Court's definition. I googled this and have found that the after that decision was made, the US Supreme Court later restricted the definition of what constitutes obscenity because states and local jurisdictions were passing obscenity laws that were way too broad. The "I know obscenity when I see it, doesn't exactly hold with the US Supreme Court anymore because it was being used to entrap innocent people who had broken no other laws, but who where targeted as minorities by the government. If you want some links all I have to do is google it again.
If NS is going to use the definition of "I know it when I see it" I respect that. But you can't claim its based on the US Court's decision because the court has since restricted the definition of obscenity.
Also, that definition creates confusion for those of us who rp because it is really really vague. I think that profanity, referring to reproductive parts, and on explicit violent and sexual content, porn links, and fansite photos should be used by NS as the definition of obscenity. But that is just my personal opinion which probably does not count.
Also, if the forums, are based on a server in Britain, wouldn't they be subject to British laws, rather than American court decisions? Which nation has jurisdiction? I don't what the laws are in Britain. Maybe the British laws are more specific on some stuff. Or would the laws be subject to Australian law, since the site owner is Australian? What are the laws in Australia?
About a week or two back, I tried to log into my main nation, Whittier--. Thinking it was a glitch in the system, since I had not done anything wrong it was only natural to think it was a glitch, I checked the jolt server. And I got the following message:
You have been forum banned for one week for puppetwanking, obscene nation name, obscene thread topic, and using a picture of real people to depict a rapist. The ban will be lifted on January 24, 2006.
I sent a telegram to the GHP. Asking when using puppets in my own thread became illegal on NS forums, that the mods had reviewed the nation name awhile back and found it to be ok, that there was nothing graphic (violent wise or sexual wise) in the the thread. And that I was not aware of the rule that using pictures to depict fictional people was now illegal.
The response I got was "Naked-Teenage-Girls has always been an obscene name. The use of pictures of real people to depict rapists has always been illegal. It can be construed as defamatory."
I was confused by both statements. But then I felt bad cause I realized I had used a picture of a black person to depict a typical rapist a few days after MLK day had passed. I felt really bad about the timing and thought I had done something thoughtless and insensitive.
So I waited for the forum ban to lift. Cause you cannot search for a thread if you cannot get on the forum. So as soon as the ban lifted, I began looking for the thread from a few months back where the moderators had said that the name "Naked-Teenage-Girls" was ok. But I found that most of the stuff was now in the archives. So I figured, the mods are probably too busy to do an archive search. So I went into the archives. And I found the thread. But I found some other interesting links. So I looked for stuff on puppetwanking and nationnames and thread content.
For the first related charge, the one of puppetwanking, I was able to find the following threads.
I http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-367508.html in this one, it was stated that you are allowed to have multiple puppets in your region/alliance. It noted that some people think badly of those who use puppets to increase national military strength. It did not say anything about using puppets being against the rules.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-380130.html is a thread where it is stated that having multiple nations is not an offense.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-399821.html it was ruled that the use of puppets in threads was up to the thread author.
In fact:
Cogitation
23-02-2005, 2:22 AM
What you found out that both nations have the same e-mail. And both of us use the same computer. And I told him to write that post.
And US good job on showing me the true. (Ain't going to say it because it would be a flame)
Some roleplay authors do not allow the use of puppets. They may impose such a condition and we Moderators will honor it. If you an another person use the same computer, then you two are indistinguishable.
--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
As is known, I have never had a problem with people using puppets in the threads I create. I would like to know how using my nation in a thread, created by my puppet could be an offense of any rules as stated in previous mod rulings and in the OSRS (One Stop Rules Shop).
The only place where I found that puppets are illegal is in the general forum:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-416992.html
As for the issue of the obscene nation name, I found the thread where it was ruled to be an ok name. But I researched the archives further to get a better handle on what the mods consider obscene name.
Since that link is on my region page which, at the time I am typing this, I cannot currently access I will first refer to rulings of the mods that I saved to word document. Just the links and what they dealt with.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-364956.html where a nation was deleted apparently for referring to one's rearend. Though it could also have referred to a donkey. Donkey's are often referred to as (the word is contained in the thread, since I don't know if using it here would count against me). But it seemed to the nation owner had the other definition in mind.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-359655.html though this deals with region names and not nation names I thought it might be applicable. Profanity is not allowed in region names. Because nation names are not debateable, I would assume it is not allowed in nation names either. Would that be correct? Or am I wrong in assuming?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-365834.html a region was renamed by a mod, because it used profanity in its title. (I found a lot of cases of mods having to deal with nations/regions with profanity in their titles. What is with people and profanity in titles? Is there like some kind of popular fetish with profanity around here or something?)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-375651.html nation names that refer to or appear to refer to reproductive organs are banned cause they are obscene. This is good clarification of the obscenity rule.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-377944.html states that if a nation name has the appearance of intending to refer to a private part, it is considered obscene and thus illegal to use on NS.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-377998.html I guess this nation name was ok?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-379515.html nation names cannot violate people's privacy.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-379745.html whether a nation name is obscene is highly dependent on context.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-384755.html specifically stating that profanity can't be used in nation names.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-388081.html the nation name Republican_s_uck was ruled to be illegal. Was it because the intent of the owner was to flame or troll?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-403139.html whether a nation's name is obscene is dependent on intent.
This is the thread where the moderators said it was ok to use the name:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-420418.html
The nation name, Naked-Teenage-Girls, used no profanity, did not violate the privacy of a third person, nor did it refer to private parts of the human body. Nor was it, as the mods know who have been on NS awhile probably know, intended to refer to such. As I have stated over and over again, in telegrams, the name is meant to be joke name. A few months ago, after discussing it, the moderators found the name to be within the rules. They did say I had to change the currency and national animal which I did. The currency was changed to platinum and the national animal was changed to somethingsaurus. In fact, just before the thread in question, I had posted another thread, a factbook thread that stated that despite the nation name, nudity itself was actually illegal in the nation due to laws passed by the communists. Maybe its in the archives. The factbook should give something of my intent also. NTG was supposed to be a farsicle (spelling?) name, and the nation itself was supposed to be one of those nations where tourism was one of the main industries.
As regards thread content:
This threw me off because there was no explicit violence or graphic sex involved. There was no profanity in the thread title. So I searched the archive to find out how the thread topic could be obscene. It was about a nation that had no army and very little police because it had no experience with crime. Then a criminal comes along and the nation, because of its lack of readiness to deal with crime, has to ask for outside help in catching the culprit. I still can't see how that would be obscene.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-362812.html threads depicting sex acts are banned from the general forum cause that one has to be pg 13 for 13 year olds.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-363696.html though swastikas can't be used as nation flags you can use them in the forums. My question is if that is true, then is it permissable to use virgins as currency in the forums too?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-364827.html can't use offensive words in thread titles.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-365254.html it allowable to parody public officials in threads.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-366181.html threads titles are allowed to refer NAZI's and racist references.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-366248.html threads are allowed to refer to female sexual slavery but they cannot be explicit or detailed.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-370511.html descriptive violence is illegal on the forums. NC-17 material is frowned upon. R rated stuff is allowed as long as it labeled so on the title. Mods will not review proposed posts. Instead, people who post them will be deleted? Not clear.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-373275.html personal attacks and demonization of whole groups of people are not allowed on the forums. What if one of your characters has that kind of personality though?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-374310.html deals with thread topic titles. Fris. States that misleading and derogatory topic titles are a no no.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-379605.html subtle references to sex are allowed, but gratuitus sex is not pg 22 of moderator archives.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-395843.html no explicit content. Rape is very restricted. You can mention it after the fact or alluded to so people know what’s going to happen (written in pg manner?), it can be used as a valid part of rps but you cannot have a thread that focuses on it. If it does you will be scrutinized and not given any slack. You should also put a warning on your thread if your are going to have graphic content. Pg 25
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-397898.html Henry and Bob’s Sex Slave are permissible topic titles.
No offensive words were used in the topic thread title or subject. There was no descritive sex or violence. Just references after the fact. There was no demonization of any whole group of people. The title itself was not false or derogatory. Though subtle references are allowed, there was no depiction of sex. Just a reference to a violent crime that the nation was not ready to deal with on its own.
In fact there was no explicit content. The crime involved in the rp did involve rape. But it did not, and was not meant to focus on, the act of rape. It was meant to focus on the nation needing foreign assistance to deal with crime, which they've never had to deal with before. The subject of rape was just meant to be representative of all violent crimes. I used a random number generator to choose which crime to use as the problem requiring international police assistance. It was chosen randomly. I didn't think there would be a big deal about it as long as there was no graphics or explicity content and as long as the thread was not going to be focused on it. Because I had no intent of allowing the thread to be explicit or graphic, and it was not, I did not think there would be a need for a warning on the title.
I know you guys keep good records and, while you deleted the thread from the forum, you have a copy of it somewhere that you can refer to. If I am wrong, can you please show me where I am wrong at? The thread title was "Rapist on the loose" a benign title.
The thread referred had only one picture that was used in it. In past threads, some people have occasionally used pictures of real people to depict fictional characters. I thought that since such pics were used to depict fictional national leaders, they could also be used to depict fictional commoners.
Searching the archives the only thing I found in reference to the use of pictures, was this:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-395464.html pics are held to higher standard than text is, pg 25. If you want your government or characters to look like person in pics keep them to headshots. The image was removed.
I was not aware of the headshot rule. But it does say you are allowed to use pics of real people to depict fictional characters as long as you limit them to headshots.
I saw another thread that said that fansite pics are not permissable either because they intend to allure the mind toward body parts, unless you limit them to headshots. But I lost the thread :(.
But I still feel bad about the timing of the pic. Whether it was a headshot or not, the timing was just plain wrong. I've never paid much attention to holidays or anniversaries. To me, all days of the year are the same.
I realize the mods are very very busy people, which is why I searched the archives to find this stuff.
If it is possible, I would like that Whittier-- be restored. And that Naked-Teenage-Age girls also be restored. And also, the thread if possible. If the mods decide the title is not permissable, maybe it can restored with a different title like "Criminal on the loose" or "Nation unprepared for crime". Also, without the pic. If I thought the pic would be a problem I would not have used it and I regret using it now.
It is important for me to get Whittier-- back. Because I've been walking on tightrope. To the point of drafting my posts on word on then editing them to make sure they were appropriate to the forums. Because I didn't want to lose anymore nations after I lost my previous one. And I was being careful to follow the rules cause I don't want to be banned from the site, and these recent deletions hit me out of nowhere from left field. If you decide that Naked-Teenage-Girls is now considered offensive I will respect. But, I would like to get Whittier-- back, cause I was not aware that any rules were being violated. I apologize that it took so long for me to ask, but I needed to take some time to try and get the facts straight.
Thanks for your time.
Also,while I am here, in another recent thread, one of the moderators, said that the NS definition of obscenity was the same as the US Supreme Court's definition. I googled this and have found that the after that decision was made, the US Supreme Court later restricted the definition of what constitutes obscenity because states and local jurisdictions were passing obscenity laws that were way too broad. The "I know obscenity when I see it, doesn't exactly hold with the US Supreme Court anymore because it was being used to entrap innocent people who had broken no other laws, but who where targeted as minorities by the government. If you want some links all I have to do is google it again.
If NS is going to use the definition of "I know it when I see it" I respect that. But you can't claim its based on the US Court's decision because the court has since restricted the definition of obscenity.
Also, that definition creates confusion for those of us who rp because it is really really vague. I think that profanity, referring to reproductive parts, and on explicit violent and sexual content, porn links, and fansite photos should be used by NS as the definition of obscenity. But that is just my personal opinion which probably does not count.
Also, if the forums, are based on a server in Britain, wouldn't they be subject to British laws, rather than American court decisions? Which nation has jurisdiction? I don't what the laws are in Britain. Maybe the British laws are more specific on some stuff. Or would the laws be subject to Australian law, since the site owner is Australian? What are the laws in Australia?