NationStates Jolt Archive

= Introduction =

Please understand that I don't want to be a gravedigger here, but I do have a request I would like moderation to consider.

Exactly two years (+ 2 days) ago, the nation 'Orioni' was deleted under shady circumstances. An intense debate about the exact meaning of a few words started, with varried opinions.

On the 1-year-anniversary of this event, I would like to refocus attention on the issue, and ask for a pardon by the NationStates Moderating Team.


= Down To The Details =

Katganistan said (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7707801&postcount=44): "We can only judge on what the actual words said, not on revisions after the fact."
.. to which Gabriels Fountain correctly replied (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7707881&postcount=45): "Quite to the contrary: if there was no ambiguity, we wouldn't be having this discussion."

User 'Puppet nr 784512' makes the difference in opinion very very clear (link (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7706135&postcount=32)) and hits the nail right on the head:
Originally Posted by SalusaSecondus
"If you don't do xyz I'll get the moderators to delete you/kick you from the UN/ban you from nationstates."
Orioni didn't say that, you know that, it isn't stated in the telegram.
Withdraw your endorsement from 'Atlantian Warriors'. This nation is an invader and will destroy the region. You won't be safe with him as delegate! If the moderators find out your nation will be deleted!!


= Noteworthy Opinions =

Many experienced and respected NS-players accepted my version of the story:

Goobergunchia (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7708700&postcount=1)
Crazy girl (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7706425&postcount=34), 2 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7711160&postcount=4)
Ostendt (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7705303&postcount=14)
Westwind (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7707552&postcount=42), 2 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7707929&postcount=46)
Tuesday Heights (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7707045&postcount=37)
Sanctaphrax (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7704506&postcount=8)
Monte Ozarka (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7707693&postcount=43), 2 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7708395&postcount=51)
Ballotonia (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7719991&postcount=19)
Defaultia (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7706843&postcount=36)
NuMetal (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7707046&postcount=38)
Puppet nr 784523 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7705117&postcount=12), 2 (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/member.php?u=100658)
Cassandrah (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7705407&postcount=19)
Talthia (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7705491&postcount=22)
Jjuulliiaann (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7707256&postcount=41)
Sandpit (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7725476&postcount=27)


Although very convincing and true, moderation followed a different interpretation:

SalusaSecondus (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7705507&postcount=23)



= Conclusion =

With everything said and done, SelusaSecondus finally answers (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7714855&postcount=14) (and I quote):"We aren't accusing you of impersonating a moderator (poor wording on our part at the beginning) (...)
We understand that mistakes are made by moderators and we do review our decisions and sometimes take them back."

Well it's now one year later and I haven't done anything contentious in the meantime. I have been playing this great game for almost two full years now and my regions has put up with my delegacy for a total of 568 days and counting.

With all of the above taken into consideration, I feel this punishment has lasted long enough now. Therefore I would like to ask NationStates Moderation for a pardon and please restore the nation 'Orioni'.


[hr]= Reference Material =
Account deleted: Orioni (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=7699740)
Inquiry into new precedent (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=381602)
NationStates FAQ (http://www.nationstates.net/29149/page=faq)
NationStates Etiquette (http://www.nationstates.net/29149/page=faq#etiquette)
NationStates Terms & Conditions (http://www.nationstates.net/pages/legal.html)

Linky: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=7699740 so people can read the entire thread with ease, and not selected quotations.

Related thread: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=381602

Just my two cents:

1) At the time of the deletion, an Admin clarified why it was that the nation was deleted.

2) We generally do not consider the amount of time as a good citizen when deciding whether or not to reinstate a rulebreaking nation.

3) The opinions of non-moderators are valid in bringing out some of the concerns that moderators might have missed, but ultimately the decision made by the mod team and the admins overule popular opinion.

You may ask for your final appeal, though frankly I believe that since your argument seems to be, "I've been good for two years" and we don't reinstate nations deleted for rulebreaking but only for mistakes or inactivity, I don't believe it will accomplish anything.

[Edit]Your "details" take a comment I made out of context, and whether you intend it or not, make it seem that I made the decision that resulted in Orioni being deleted, and that Salusa supported it.

Considering that:

The Most Glorious Hack
SalusaSecondus
Cogitation
Myrth
Myself (Katganistan)

all weighed in on this at the time, I think that the reason was very clearly stated and not likely to be ruled an error.[./edit]

Exactly two years (+ 2 days) ago, the nation 'Orioni' was deleted under shady circumstances.December 04 to December 05 is one year by my figuring...

At any rate, the crux of your appeal seems to be that you've been good for a year. If that's it, I see no reason to overturn anything. Also, you had an Administrator rule on your case back then. There's no need for a "final appeal" as you've already had one.

It seemed to me that the crux of his argument was that the judgement was shaky at the time, and that his good behavior was a lesser point intended to help push the decision back the other way.

Not being argumentative, just trying to highlight a different point of view.

It seemed to me that the crux of his argument was that the judgement was shaky at the time, and that his good behavior was a lesser point intended to help push the decision back the other way.

Not being argumentative, just trying to highlight a different point of view.

As far as I know Orioni was a female last year and I assume she still is now :)

Some nations could be pardonned, just to show that it can be christmas in Nationstates too. The holiday season is very boring on this site. 1 year of good behaviour would be a good measure, especially if it's not deleted for griefing or inappropriate nation's stuff.
On the other hand, some people might become very unhappy, because they migh become jealous. Mods might get overstrained because of all the whining and begging. That could seriously spoil someone's good mood and Christmas spirit :p

Bah, Humbug.

Seriously, though, it would be the pinnacle of unfair to reverse the ruling for one person when others have been deleted for the same offense.

Some nations could be pardonned, just to show that it can be christmas in Nationstates too. The holiday season is very boring on this site. 1 year of good behaviour would be a good measure, especially if it's not deleted for griefing or inappropriate nation's stuff.No ulterior motive here, I'm sure...

If you want holiday cheer, log off. The holidays are about spending time with family, not spending it on a computer game.

No ulterior motive here, I'm sure...
I always have. I am out to get everybody.:p
If you want holiday cheer, log off. The holidays are about spending time with family, not spending it on a computer game.
Don't worry. I can be on my computer, and be with family the same time, and I log off every day.

I was deleted for Klamating and spamming. Not sure if that is the same, but sure very different from Orioni's case. I deserved to be deleted, and my Holliday cheer is for not being IP banned and still have my other 100 puppets :fluffle:

Speaking of rules, I can't help but think there ought to be one for people who abuse the ability to have multiple nations like this. Honestly now. What in hell could you possible do effectively with 100 puppets aside from drain resources? There's having multiple nations for fun, for playing different ways, for participating in various venues, and then there's just being ridiculous.

This, as always, is simply my opinion and carries no weight or authority with it - for those that tend to miss these things.

What in hell could you possible do effectively with 100 puppets aside from drain resources?

You'd be surprised, Nathi. When I had more than 100+ puppets at one time, I came up with a clever way of sorting them all out to spread myself through the NS world to take part in politics, take part in defending and just hang out with friends I've built in the game. It's all about how you manage it, not to say others don't do that, but more often than not, they just create puppets and let them die, which is a drain on resources.

*blinks*

You're right, I am surprised. That sort of organization and interaction seems like a lot of effort for a game. I think I'd go insane trying to keep track! :eek:

I don't understand the defender angle on that though - can't you only have just one UN nation, and isn't that what counts in the whole invader/defender bit? Or is it more to use as a monitor and have 'native' nations all over who can appeal if something goes wrong? I've never gotten into the whole regional politics thing because it just seems like too much work and frustration, so I'm not clear on how those who really get into it work things.

As Final Appeal has been requested and declined, iLock.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator