NationStates Jolt Archive

Recently, I have come across people that have had their nations deleted for unknown reason, on one occasion I inquired for another to see what got him deleted since the mod didn't give a reason. I was told he would have to ask so I told him to do so. The response he got was generic and still didn't tell him what he did wrong. How is he is supposed to avoid a mistake never outlined? If it was obvious then that would be one thing, it was not.

I spoke to another this morning, he was deleted because his nation may have made reference to the holocaust in a negative manner. What about his nation did this was not mentioned, so he is left with a no real reason for his deletion, and no knowledge of how to avoid it next time. Even though he tried to get guidance about avoiding the said deletion again he got no response.

No attempt is made to bring possible offenders of rules in line with knowledge, just a set up for another mistake and another deletion.

How are we as players to avoid this when we think we are following the rules?

How about reading the OSRS (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023) for a change?

How to know what not to do?

Read the FAQ. Read the abundant stickies that outline what is and isn't acceptable, like The One-Stop Rule Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023). Use some common sense - flaming, being plainly insulting and nasty on the boards, using an unacceptable nation name/motto/animal/currency can earn you a delete, depending on the severity.

Considering how many people play this game and post on the boards without ever running afoul of the moderators, one would think it's not nearly so hard to manage as some might have us believe. After all, it's our own responsibility to manage our behaviour, not the mods.

I spoke to another this morning, he was deleted because his nation may have made reference to the holocaust in a negative manner. What about his nation did this was not mentioned, so he is left with a no real reason for his deletion, and no knowledge of how to avoid it next time.Examples are your friend.

It's a little tough to know what you're talking about without the names of the nations deleted.

Considering how many people play this game and post on the boards without ever running afoul of the moderators, one would think it's not nearly so hard to manage as some might have us believe.Considering how many people play, it'd be surprising if some random number of people didn't manage to run afoul of the rules...

Well I have kept it simple instead of naming names because of the situation is what is in question not so much the person. But this is mainly motivated by my friends nation that was deleted.

There may be a reason The New Fuhrer was deleted, unfortunately that was never shared with him even after asking he received a cryptic answer that didn't really answer his question because it was a generic response something about his motto, flag, animal and/or currency, but not what it was that actually was the problem. So he continues in the dark.

Based on the rules as they stood and the way things have been in the past his nation was acceptable, it was his old flag, motto, currency, animal that had been around for ages without known issue. No swastikas, no hitler, no "kill the ****" comments.

If he did something so be it, but he should know what it was exactly. It really should have been included with his deletion and certainly given once he asked about it. He was never warned to his knowledge about anything concerning this old nation of his.

My confusion doesn't stem from the reason, since it was never really given it is at this point hard to argue about, but from the lack of info he should have received.

At this point the thought is something was not liked about him and he was deleted, skipping warnings and such that may have been used with others. And in giving no reason at deletion it gives one flexibility in future to give the "reason". Bringing into doubt the reasons validity.

To me this makes the deletion invalid, his nation should be restored and he should be informed what it was that concerned the mod so much that after the ages that have gone by with this nation it was suddenly suspected of something inappropriate.

Examples are your friend.

The info this other person had supplied me did not include anything refering to the holocaust in any manner, and he was not informed what part of his nation was the offending part. He tried to get info about it so he could avoid any issues but he said he received no response.

There may be a reason The New Fuhrer was deleted, unfortunately that was never shared with him even after asking he received a cryptic answer that didn't really answer his question because it was a generic response something about his motto, flag, animal and/or currency, but not what it was that actually was the problem. So he continues in the dark.

If there was something wrong enough with his name/animal/currency/motto to get deleted, it would probably have been obvious like "Kill the (insert group here). Maybe he wasn't told "You got deleted because your motto said X. But if X was noticably racist or in other ways offensive, you'd have to be an idiot to not understand why you got in trouble for it.

it was his old flag, motto, currency, animal that had been around for ages without known issue.
No, it had most likely been around for ages without being noticed. We have over 110,000 active nations, and we don't have time to randomly spot-check them all. When we stumble across something or someone reports something, that's when we act. Something existing for months does not grant it immunity from action.

you'd have to be an idiot to not understand why you got in trouble for it.
This was totally unnecessary and unhelpful, especially in this forum. Do NOT flame here again.

Sorry. I should have substituted a nicer word...

Sorry. I should have substituted a nicer word...
You appear to be missing the point. There was no need for ANY of your post, as two moderators had already responded, and another player had provided every bit of the 'useful information' you posted.

In any event, I think you've gotten the point now.

No, it had most likely been around for ages without being noticed. We have over 110,000 active nations, and we don't have time to randomly spot-check them all. When we stumble across something or someone reports something, that's when we act. Something existing for months does not grant it immunity from action.


Given the attention our region receives it was a higher chance of being noticed over this much time, I will say that it has been seen before but nothing done because nothing was said. that is just opinion though. I am aware that it being around a long time does not give it immunity, but unless it was blatant it should have given him warning. Nothing about his nation called for deletion based on the current rule set. After reading the rules we have only the mods to go by in concerns to what is offensive because much of it is mere opinion. The further from the blatant you go the weaker the case against the item becomes, just because it popular among the complainers does not make it the right thing to do.

Perhaps if the offending mod would tell him what he really did it would be helpful, since we are shooting in the dark as to what it was. Again this is reason enough to reinstate his nation, no evidence of rulebreaking at this point has been shown. Generic response can not and should not be acceptable.

I can ask him to request again the info for his nation if I can find out the mod whom decided his nation was blatantly offensive.

He does not post in here himself because as far as he knows he was deleted for no reason and he doesn't want to be deleted again.

He does not post in here himself because as far as he knows he was deleted for no reason and he doesn't want to be deleted again.
Often, when I file a "getting help" request, it gets answered within 24 hours. If he is really that scared, he can create a random puppet and ask an explanation. Unless he doesn't ask it politely, or if he is DOS (Delete on Sight), there is no reason why he wouldn't get an answer. I see you assuming a whole lot of stuff here. I hope you don't trust him on his blue eyes.

I deleted the nation in question, and many others of a similar ilk at about the same time. I apologize if I didn't follow the usual route of notifying players about their nation's deletion (do mods really do that?).

As per the FAQ, NationStates doesn't permit content that is "malicious." I've posted previously about how nations that appear to be endorse or celebrate violence against real-life people fall into that category. It was on these grounds that I deleted a bunch of nations mocked up to look like Hitler's Germany at the time of the Holocaust.

Please bear in mind:
The intention of the player (that is, whether he's trying to roleplay, to be silly, to offend, or something else) is not judged, because we have no way of telling that. What's relevant is how the nation appears to others.
When a player makes his nation up to mimic a particular real-life country at a particular time in its history, mirroring it blindly, the message it sends is: "I think this real-life nation was just terrific." When that country is 1940s Nazi Germany, which as previously discussed is known primarily to most people for the Holocaust, that's inappropriate.
Players are free to discuss issues of racism and National Socialism on the forums, so long as they abide by the rules of etiquette; however, as per the FAQ, we are stricter on nation names, fields, and flags, as these cannot be debated.
No, <insert country here> is not known chiefly for its atrocities in the same way that 1940s Nazi Germany is. The issue is what message the nation sends to the average person, not to history buffs or you personally.
It's not illegal to play a Nazi nation. But if you're going to have one, making sure it doesn't send the message "Wasn't the Holocaust great!" is your problem.

The above is listed for players' information. I'm not reopening the whole debate about whether this policy is correct: the fact is, it's here and players must abide by it. So please only post genuine questions.

Priestess Pythia, I know him in real life, we worked together. He is a good person. He sent me the response he got from the mod, it was a poor response with little info.

Violet, it is sad situation, since you had removed alot of people recently you probably don't even know what was offensive about The New Fuhrer. But I will ask him to try and get specifics from you if you have them.

It is also sad that this type of censorship is allowed. But as you said you are not interested in opening the discussion about this. But I think much is assumed about what the average person reacts to a nazi based nation. Most people who complain are rarely considered the average person. Indifference is usually the average person response to what most consider history. Bad history, but hardly alone in its horror.

The New Fuhrer should not have been deleted imo, his nation made no impression that the holocaust was great, since not everyone in Nazi germany agreed with it, it should not be used as a broad stroke for the country at the time or in this game.

This is the last I will say on it, I will allow him to pursue this himself since it was an admin that did this unfortunate thing.

Good Day everyone, I thank those mods/admin who took the time to speak in this thread.

Ok violet.. what is the real reason for my deletion? You have said you deleted quite a few people, all at one time for "looking like resurrecting the nazis" or whatever it was.. well how have i done that? I have played NationStates for almost two years now, under a variety of names.. The New Fuhrer was my oldest name, and the one i hold the most dear, and you deleted it for a reason that doesn't really hold water.. Here are the rules of nationstates..
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THE RULES OF NATION STATES


It's free speech, so I can post whatever I like here, right?

Ahahahaha! Hahaha! Free speech! No, it's not. I run this web site, see, so you have to play by my rules. It's like my own Father Knows Best state.
What can I post?

You can discuss and argue about almost anything, so long as it's vaguely relevant to politics or NationStates and doesn't fall into any of the categories below. You don't have to be politically correct, but you must maintain a minimum standard of behavior.
What can't I post?

Any content that is:

* obscene
* illegal
* threatening
* malicious
* defamatory
* spam

This applies to your nation's name, motto, and other customizable fields, any messages you write, images you post, or any other content you upload or link to NationStates. If you do, your nation will be deleted. See the site's Terms & Conditions for details.

Also prohibited is the practice of "griefing." Griefing is playing with the primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people. If you do this, the game moderators may take action against you.
Does that apply to my nation's flag?

You betcha. In fact, we're much stricter on nation flags than we are on forum posts, because they're not open for challenge and debate. If you want to make a political point, don't use your flag -- use the forum, where other people have a right of reply.
I got into an argument with this idiot in the forums, and I got deleted and he didn't! How come you allow pro-Catholic argument, but when someone tries to tell the TRUE story of the coming of Christ--

Okay, let me stop you there. It might look as if you are being persecuted for your political views, but what most likely happened is you made a personal attack and your opponent didn't. No matter what the subject matter, if you don't conduct yourself in accordance with the rules of etiquette, you will get into trouble with the moderators. The best way to get your points across in the forums is to remain calm and respect other people's right to disagree with you.
Another player posted something offensive!

People get offended at different things, so first make sure it falls into one of the above categories. If it does, please report it to the game moderators using the "Getting Help" page.

Because our moderators are players who have volunteered to help out of the goodness of their hearts, please deal with lesser disputes without involving them. For example, if someone spams your regional message board, your region's Founder or UN Delegate can eject them.
Can I steal another player's nation?

No. This is fraudulent behavior and breaches the site's terms & conditions. The same applies to any attempt to impersonate another player, including attempting to hack nation or region passwords.
Can I invade other people's regions?

Yes. The practice of "region crashing," where a group of nations all move to a region with the aim of seizing the UN Delegate position, is part of the game. Certain groups within NationStates are particularly adroit at this, and can attack very quickly.
Once I've taken over a region, can I eject everyone else?

No. Region crashing by itself is a legitimate tactic to seize power, but ejecting large numbers of nations is griefing. It can be a fine line between region crashing and griefing. Players who enjoy launching invasions should take care to stay on the right side.
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Lets go over what might be offensive.. My name? My name is the new fuhrer.. not the fuhrer is great, or hail adolf or anything that would be offensive.. it is the NEW Fuhrer.. symbolizing and meaning a new regime, different from the old, and not associated with the old.. Fuhrer is German for Leader, and being of german descent and speaking german naturally a word i might use.

Could my flag be offensive? I dont really think it is.. it was a old german battleflag from the 1st world war.. a mixture of several flags really..

could my currency have been offensive? nah it was a "mark" or reichsmark.. the former currency of germany from 1871-1945.. it was used by the emperor's. and by the country through the mid 1900's, if asked i could have changed it to anything..



could it hvae been my animal? i dont think so. the animal was the "zwitter"..
zwitter is german for "hermaphrodite" if people found this offensive (which i doubt) they could have asked me to switch it as well. the reason i used it was because it is the name of a song by the band Rammstein.


As you can see the reasons for deleting me.. or the ones i got from the mods.. (Name\Flag\Currency\Animal) are not valid.. because none of them violated the rules of the game...



Violet.. i am a military historian.. I specialize in history of the World Wars, and Especially on German involvement in both of them.. i realize the offensive nature of the "nazi" subject and i understand the significance and horrific consequences of their actions.. I understand the apprehension people have to the subject, and i am in no way condoning the actions of them.. The holocaust was a terrible thing..



I just ask that the reasons for deleting my nation be reconsidered and that the verdict be rethought. I think i have made a valid case, If asked i would ahve changed anything that the mods had wished, the fact was i wasn't asked. It takes a long time to get a nation over the 3 billion mark, and it also takes a long time to get a recognized name in the game. You have taken both from me, and if possible i would like them back.





Thank you


TNF

Ok violet.. what is the real reason for my deletion? You have said you deleted quite a few people, all at one time for "looking like resurrecting the nazis" or whatever it was..
I've taken the time to explain in some detail why it was deleted. How about you read and understand that before complaining about "whatever it was"?

I won't have mods constantly writing to clearly malicious nations to please change some of their fields. It's your responsibility to keep your nation acceptable, not to see how far you can push things then say, "But I would have changed it if you asked" when you get caught. Your nation mimicked Hitler's Germany in its name, flag, currency, slogan, and region (the animal is debatable); don't try to tell me that's all coincidence.

the animal is debatable? the animal has no connection at all with nazi germany.. the name? so you are saying that anything with fuhrer in it is connected to nazi germany? i dont think so.. the bundeswehr still calls tank commanders Panzer Fuhrer's (panzer leader) are you saying that the german army of today is associating itself with nazi germany? no you are not.. so why is having "New Fuhrer" as a name, implying that i am not associated with hitler, such an offense? and like i said Reichsmark was the currency of germany from its founding in 1871 until the end of WWII.. that means it was in use for a longer time before hitler.. ... i dont see the connection with my currency and him..

finally.. you said you deleted the nations, "at large" as a group.. you just deleted some randomly.. so you are just going to leave me as a deleted nation?

its a shame the game has come to this.... random deletions rather than on a case by case basis... its a lack of character and consideration on your part.

thats all i have to say on the matter.

That's twice you've quoted me as saying something I didn't. I don't know where you got "at large" from, or "looking like resurrecting the Nazis," but these are not things I said. Please take the time to read what I actually did say.

finally.. you said you deleted the nations, "at large" as a group.. you just deleted some randomly.. so you are just going to leave me as a deleted nation?

its a shame the game has come to this.... random deletions rather than on a case by case basis... its a lack of character and consideration on your part.

Just for further clarification, we don't randomly delete nations as you have claimed twice that [violet] has done. We examine every detail of the nation before we even consider deleting a nation; as well as discussing it with our fellow moderators on if it deserves a warning or deletion. Your claims of us doing 'random deletions' is completely baseless, and only takes away from your shakey argument, of which you really have yet to read any of [violet]'s responses to you.