NationStates Jolt Archive

Is there a new policy concerning invasions? Given that what Max Barry calls "region crashing" is a legitimate part of this game, since when did moderators decide that if enough complaints are received, a legal invasion can be ruined by a mod installing himself as the founder as has happened in The Che Guerillas?

I'm actually in agreement with the above poster: The invasion, although I opposed it, was a legal one. The mods responcible for this reported that they were "sick and tired of the hundreds of complaints" they were reciving..... since when did the mods give in to what basically amounts to mass-bitching?

From what I hear simular actions were taken in "Holy Land" or "The Holy Land" today too...... are invasions now illegal? Have the rules changed?

Interesting...I know of only one situation where a permanent modfounder was installed, but this was a region which had been griefed empty like 3 times in a short time period. In other situations there were temporary modfounders, but again, with griefings. I'm not sure if these invasions were or were not legal, but I would like more information on these new modfounders whch seems permanent.

Good afternoon,

Due to it's very name,The Aryan Army has one strike against it to begin with.They have to cut it 'cleaner' than anyone else when it comes to invasions,the action in TCG was done by the numbers with no griefing of any type.

I see a duality here.As pointed out previously,the mods stated on the RMB they simply got tired of "the hundreds of complaints".Yet as posted by Fris yesterday in this thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=454846 spamming moderation with complaints is a 'bad' thing.There should be no gray area in this respect,mods should enforce rule legality not succumb to counter invader complaints no matter what side they come from.

Curiously enough,a mod puppet was spotted coming in with counter invaders early in the week,he was promptly ejected and removed from the banlist.I know it will not be divulged but I'm wondering if that was the same mod/player that is now the founder?

DC&H

The Modfounder trick has been used a few times before, mostly (as said above) in cases where there was some problem w/ major griefing.

My best guess is that we can read one of two things into this with the current info:

1. Aryans and their actions in the game are tantamount to griefing in and of themselves (btw, I'm fine with this).

2. Just part of the Mods ongoing assault on all things raiding.

Unfortunately, my guess is it is more of option #2.

Basically every major structural change in the game since I've been playing has been a response to raiding (Installing founders, changing update from set time to random, etc--w/ the exception of that new spell check thingy I don't use). Hard to be too shocked that our friendly and meddlesome Mods have decided to open a new front on raiding by Modfounding.

I've been wondering for a while now why they don't just outlaw raiding and get it over with? What possible interest is served by saying it is legal and then showing their hypocrisy by thwarting raiding across the board?

My only guess so far is that back when all the FAQ was written Max said it was legal, and the Mods don't like it but can't overturn it so they have been chipping away at it ever since. Just my guess though.

It could not possibly be, I would think, BOTH sides trying to use the moderators as leverage, could it? Noooo, too easy. I mean hey, when tasks pour in from one region which take an inordinate amount of time from administering the rest of the game, with players of both sides alleging wrongdoing, players of both sides INVOLVED in wrongdoing, and players of both sides involving us in trying to unfairly eliminate the competition, it's of COURSE just mod bias.

Perhaps if our involvement and judgment were not wanted or needed, we should not have been called upon so frequently by both sides, hmmmmmm?

It could not possibly be, I would think, BOTH sides trying to use the moderators as leverage, could it? Noooo, too easy. I mean hey, when tasks pour in from one region which take an inordinate amount of time from administering the rest of the game, with players of both sides alleging wrongdoing, players of both sides INVOLVED in wrongdoing, and players of both sides involving us in trying to unfairly eliminate the competition, it's of COURSE just mod bias.

Perhaps if our involvement and judgment were not wanted or needed, we should not have been called upon so frequently by both sides, hmmmmmm?


The information available to us in the peonage was that there was no specific wrongdoing confirmed. Apparently Katganistan wants us to think that was wrong and the Mods did find rules violations (no personal offense Kat, but the dripping sarcasm makes it difficult to tell if you were stating that there were violations or merely wanted to insinuate such).

Either way, this explanation of Modfounding as an expedient to dealing with complaints is sorely lacking. I have no doubt but that it is easy and expedient. It also forcloses raiding in the future, which is what the opponents of raiding want anyway.

It's not like these Modfounders go away. I notice Hack still oversees Cuba. This Modfounding trick basically curtails raiding in the region for the rest of its forseeable future. So, while it is an easy way to eliminate the problem of the complaints, it does so only by eliminating raiding.

An even easier and efficient way to eliminate the problem of both sides making complaints to manipulate the Mods is to do nothing. And this wouldn't forclose the raidplay aspect of the game.

Just a suggestion.

(PS--Kat, wasn't trying to piss you off. Mods have admitted bias in favor of fendas. What I said is true, structural changes in the game have come about from raiding and have always made raiding more difficult generally. Modfounding does the same thing. I'm not angry about it. It's your world, I'm just trying to have some fun in it)

Pirates Roost, I'm not offended by what you say. I have absolutely no interest in defenders or invaders as I play neither aspect of the game.

All I am saying is that both sides were, IMO, trying to get around the rules and take unfair advantage in overly and openly involving the moderation team in every aspect of this invasion.

Actually, normally Hack does remove his foundership when things go back to normal in a griefed region (yes, I stalk him :p )

I think he simply forgot in Cuba, but if I'm correct that puppet no longer resides in Cuba, and so it shouldn't hamper with any legal invasion of this region.

Remains the question, why there is now a modpuppet in these two regions. Were these regions griefed? Or can natives just spam up the GHP in order to get rid of invaders? Just curious..

You may or may not know me, but I'm with the region that invaded Holy Land, and I'd like to inform you what the Mods are saying now, if a region gets invaded and they have been invaded before and they get "hundreds of complaints", they will eject the Invader delegate from the UN for "conspiring to grief" and replace the founder with a Mod puppet.

Its crazy, and I for one am wondering, what is NationStates coming to? Myself and several of my friends are debating whether NationStates is fun to play anymore...

I mean, the Mods are now getting PURE DEFENDERS into the Mod positions, they censor our telegrams, create puppets to warn regions of invaders, and make sure that all invaders are "breaking rules" so they can never become Mods.

NationStates is slowly but surely turning into a Defender Dictatorship, and I for one am not simply waiting for it.

Make Invading legal or illegal, just make up your mind!

This is not really to make anyone mad, its to inform people and to appeal to the Mods integrity to be unbiased. There is nothing in the rules that limit the ammount of invasions a region can have, nor did we break any rules in invading, so why are we being prosecuted? I really think that the current biased Mods need reprimanding and we need to even out the Moderation team.

Once again, this is not to spam, nor incite anger, but rather to inform and inquire further into this dire situation.

Actually, normally Hack does remove his foundership when things go back to normal in a griefed region (yes, I stalk him :p )

I think he simply forgot in Cuba, but if I'm correct that puppet no longer resides in Cuba, and so it shouldn't hamper with any legal invasion of this region.

Remains the question, why there is now a modpuppet in these two regions. Were these regions griefed? Or can natives just spam up the GHP in order to get rid of invaders? Just curious..

No griefing took place, it seems the mods used the boogyman of possable griefing and the numerious complaints to just take the matter into their own hands this time....

Seariously, how about making filing too many GHP reports a TOS voilation? People do abuse it, and I don't see why people who were doing something that, at this time, is offically game legal should be punished because of folks who are ABUSING the system!

You may or may not know me, but I'm with the region that invaded Holy Land, and I'd like to inform you what the Mods are saying now, if a region gets invaded and they have been invaded before and they get "hundreds of complaints", they will eject the Invader delegate from the UN for "conspiring to grief" and replace the founder with a Mod puppet.

Its crazy, and I for one am wondering, what is NationStates coming to? Myself and several of my friends are debating whether NationStates is fun to play anymore...

I mean, the Mods are now getting PURE DEFENDERS into the Mod positions, they censor our telegrams, create puppets to warn regions of invaders, and make sure that all invaders are "breaking rules" so they can never become Mods.

NationStates is slowly but surely turning into a Defender Dictatorship, and I for one am not simply waiting for it.

Make Invading legal or illegal, just make up your mind!

This is not really to make anyone mad, its to inform people and to appeal to the Mods integrity to be unbiased. There is nothing in the rules that limit the ammount of invasions a region can have, nor did we break any rules in invading, so why are we being prosecuted? I really think that the current biased Mods need reprimanding and we need to even out the Moderation team.

Once again, this is not to spam, nor incite anger, but rather to inform and inquire further into this dire situation.


Do you have proof of the allegations you are making? Because I have to say most of what you're alleging is, as far as I know, untrue or twisted.

People are ejected from the UN for UN violations and nothing more. People are not ejected for hundreds of complaints -- unless those complaints are justified.

No one has said that modpuppets will be de rigeur -- except people who intend to frighten and stir up all the gameplayers.

Which mods are Pure Defenders?
What mod puppets have been used to warn of invasion?
What telegrams have been censored?

I am VERY interested in hearing of your proof -- as I am sure all players are.

No griefing took place, it seems the mods used the boogyman of possable griefing and the numerious complaints to just take the matter into their own hands this time....

Seariously, how about making filing too many GHP reports a TOS voilation? People do abuse it, and I don't see why people who were doing something that, at this time, is offically game legal should be punished because of folks who are ABUSING the system!


I fully and completly agree :D

Do you have proof of the allegations you are making? Because I have to say I'm unaware of most of what you're alleging.


A telegram that I received, but was unfortunatly lost due to the high number of telegrams I have been receiving since the invasion and the odd occurence after it.

And to the second point, just look at the Mods! The newest Mod was in the RLA before he became a Moderator!

A telegram that I received, but was unfortunatly lost due to the high number of telegrams I have been receiving since the invasion and the odd occurence after it.

So, basically -- it does not exist and therefore cannot be used to prove or disprove your point.

And to the second point, just look at the Mods! The newest Mod was in the RLA before he became a Moderator!

Could you be more plain please? You're saying that one moderator, allegedly, was in a group that is a defender group? Which one? and out of how many moderators?

Do you have proof of the allegations you are making? Because I have to say most of what you're alleging is, as far as I know, untrue or twisted.

People are ejected from the UN for UN violations and nothing more. People are not ejected for hundreds of complaints -- unless those complaints are justified.

No one has said that modpuppets will be de rigeur -- except people who intend to frighten and stir up all the gameplayers.

Which mods are Pure Defenders?
What mod puppets have been used to warn of invasion?
What telegrams have been censored?

I am VERY interested in hearing of your proof -- as I am sure all players are.

Please see my first answer, and to your new questions:


People are ejected from the UN for UN violations and nothing more. People are not ejected for hundreds of complaints -- unless those complaints are justified.

Then why is The Commonwealth of Federal Imperialists banned from the UN? I have broken no UN rules, and the telegram they sent me said "NationStates Intelligence Commitee, your nation has been ejected from the UN for conspiring to grief.

What mod puppets have been used to warn of invasion?

Please take a look at European Union, there is proof. The nation warning them, of an invasion that was only discussed via telegram, and was eventually voted down on our forum, but the point is, they knew about something that was only discussed via telegram between a few people.

What telegrams have been censored?

I believe my answer to the above question will answer this as well.

I believe you are confusing Eurosoviets (RLA) with Euroslavia (forum mod)

Also, is it not possible a defender has infiltrated your ranks, instead of mods outing your secrets?

I must concure with the thoughts of my distinguished collegue Federal Imperialists. I recently saw the assualt on Holy Land, and his actions were in no violation of the rules in NS. Some examples of his accustions are:

Passcoding the region- He did not do, the native-chosen UN delegate put the password up and I am told it was made : iamnotcomingback

I know that Mods don't need to be told the rules, but I wish to refresh their memories so they don't have to busy themselves checking the rules:

Can I invade other people's regions?
Yes. The practice of "region crashing," where a group of nations all move to a region with the aim of seizing the UN Delegate position, is part of the game. Certain groups within NationStates are particularly adroit at this, and can attack very quickly.

Once I've taken over a region, can I eject everyone else?
No. Region crashing by itself is a legitimate tactic to seize power, but ejecting large numbers of nations is griefing. It can be a fine line between region crashing and griefing. Players who enjoy launching invasions should take care to stay on the right side.

Federal Imperialists is innocent of charges, and should have his reinstatement into the U.N.

I would also like to know what is coming with NS moderators.

This is a copy of a telegram I recieved from Mods when I appealled to them about Fed. Imps. reinstatement into the U.N.:

No, we're done with the constant complaints about Holy Land invasions. Your region is part of the problem, but not all of it. This has been going on since at least July 05, and we're tired of the multiple daily complaints about the region.

Mod founder remains. Regional controls are off. If you want to battle for bragging rights to the region, go right ahead, but you can forget this colony of [whatever region] stuff. This case is closed.

I believe you are confusing Eurosoviets (RLA) with Euroslavia (forum mod)

Also, is it not possible a defender has infiltrated your ranks, instead of mods outing your secrets?


First no I'm not, I know both of them.

Second, It is always possible, but then how do you explain my ejection from the UN? Also, if a fenda has infultrated us, it must eithe rbe me (which it can't be) or our President which I doubt.

Third, how are yo after Palestine? I haven't seen you in a while, of course I've changed nations several times since then, The Allied States of the British and Irish was my nation back then, thats how I fought in Palestine. Anyway.

Please see my first answer, and to your new questions:


People are ejected from the UN for UN violations and nothing more. People are not ejected for hundreds of complaints -- unless those complaints are justified.

Then why is The Commonwealth of Federal Imperialists banned from the UN? I have broken no UN rules, and the telegram they sent me said "NationStates Intelligence Commitee, your nation has been ejected from the UN for conspiring to grief.
Then that would appear to be the reason. I'm not the person who ruled on it, though.

What mod puppets have been used to warn of invasion?

Please take a look at European Union, there is proof. The nation warning them, of an invasion that was only discussed via telegram, and was eventually voted down on our forum, but the point is, they knew about something that was only discussed via telegram between a few people.

I can tell you without a doubt that the nation in question is NOT a moderation nation. Your assumption is faulty. You need to ask yourselves: who had access to the information, and who would have allegedly posted it to the other RMB (as it conveniently no longer exists there).

What telegrams have been censored?

I believe my answer to the above question will answer this as well.
No, once again, you state that you had this in a telegram which no longer exists. We tell people complaining of abuse in telegrams the same thing: if you removed it from your box, then we cannot see if what you are saying is true. I have no reason to think you are lying; but there is also no proof that the telegram ever existed.

Well, I know both as well..and Euroslavia has never been in RLA. So who do you mean then?

I looked up the post in the region you referenced to, and it speaks of a regional messageboard post, were you discussing this invasion on there?

And Biltan, there are far more rules than those described in the FAQ.

Then that would appear to be the reason. I'm not the person who ruled on it, though.



I can tell you without a doubt that the nation in question is NOT a moderation nation. Your assumption is faulty. You need to ask yourselves: who had access to the information, and who would have allegedly posted it to the other RMB (as it conveniently no longer exists there).


No, once again, you state that you had this in a telegram which no longer exists. We tell people complaining of abuse in telegrams the same thing: if you removed it from your box, then we cannot see if what you are saying is true. I have no reason to think you are lying; but there is also no proof that the telegram ever existed.


Please see Great-Biltain's post.

I know there are other rules, but there are other rules that don't apply to the current argument of Fed. Imp. those two rules APPLY

Well, I know both as well..and Euroslavia has never been in RLA. So who do you mean then?

I looked up the post in the region you referenced to, and it speaks of a regional messageboard post, were you discussing this invasion on there?

And Biltan, there are far more rules than those described in the FAQ.


While thats true the FAQ are rules, made by Max Barry. A telegram in reference to all of this has been recorded by Great-Biltian, please refer to that.

The reason posts on our RMB have somehow "disappeared" is due the immense communication. Perhaps if you want to make RMB longer you could look and see if it was there. It is not, and never was.

Seems a tad silly to warn for an invasion and refer to a post that does not exist...maybe one of your members did mention it and you missed it?

And sorry, but all invasion rules apply on all invasions. Run through them and check if you really didn't break any.

The reason posts on our RMB have somehow "disappeared" is due the immense communication. Perhaps if you want to make RMB longer you could look and see if it was there. It is not, and never was.

Great-Biltain, I did not say it was ever there or not. I simply say that the post points to your RMB and alleges there was information there, and the information is not there now.

If such an infraction was made earlier in the week -- was it reported?

In response to those last two posts, I have might have missed it, but that is highly unlikely since someone in EU asked me I we were planning anything, I check the RMB, no changes in it happened until about 4 PM EST when people began debating our upcoming constitution.

I understand the allegations against the Empire and I vehemently deny the claim. It is not there and there is no proof to proof innocent or guilty of the claim. But the fact remains or tipping off from tapping telegrams, and moderator intervetion in Holy Land.

Please see Great-Biltain's post.

Great-Biltain's post does not address the questions I asked of you.

Yes, we kept reporting it, and we were threatend to be chastised for spamming the Getting Help page, I believe I made a thread on the forum about it as well.

We followed all Invasion rules to the letter, but the Mod just kept saying that you all were tired of the numerous complaints about the region, and then they ejected me from the Un, and put a Modfounder. We were ASKED by the region's old delegate to come and assume control, and so we were opperated by request of several natives. Please refer to my old thread that was locked by a Mod.

This is just getting really old and I dont know how much more I can handle before I get fed up and leave. I mean, I'm harrassed because I don't have a clean record, but I cannot have a clear record if the Mods don't want me to, which I fear is what is happening.

Great-Biltain's post does not address the questions I asked of you.


Will you check his telegram so that you can verify our complaints, please?

But the fact remains or tipping off from tapping telegrams, and moderator intervetion in Holy Land.

We are not arguing about intervention.

It has been stated that a mod puppet has been used to warn of invasion. This is untrue. The player of that puppet is not a moderator and would not because of previous misguided behavior.

So, to reiterate:
With the exception of the agreed-upon fact that there are modpuppet founders now in two regions, virtually everything else stated here is speculation and/or cannot be verified by anyone since the information referenced does not currently exist, and at least one part of it is alleged by a third party never to have existed.

Is this accurate so far?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=454846&highlight=Federal+Empire

Okay, gang, here's the deal:

If you are going to make accusations against the Moderators, you will make specific, detailed accusations. Referencing non-existant telegrams or Regional Message posts are not sufficient. We will not accept hersay, wild speculation, or circumstantial evidence.

If you're afraid of having a post her altered (even though editing information is shown), send a Getting Help Page report; Moderators cannot delete Getting Help Requests, and any actions taken are logged.

If you don't trust that, e-mail an administrator (do note that with the holidays coming up, any reply will take awhile), but don't waste their time with vague assertations. The "evidence" given in this thread is not sufficient.

- The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game Moderator

Re: This:

Actually, normally Hack does remove his foundership when things go back to normal in a griefed region

I think he simply forgot in Cuba, but if I'm correct that puppet no longer resides in Cuba, and so it shouldn't hamper with any legal invasion of this region.Temporary founders (my puppets with the KOL Kampgrounds flags) are usually removed after a week or so, largely depending on how long it takes the region to get back on its feet. Glaaki was left as Founder of Cuba after the region was griefed repeatedly (usually about 2 days after I left), and because the native Delegate requested that I remain in that position. Glaaki resides in my region, and doesn't even watch Cuba. Eventually, it retained Founder powers out of convenience, as it was one less field I had to edit. It is in no way involved in the governance of Cuba.

The other exception is Italia, which was an abject nightmare. Two factions of natives refused to deal with each other and would continually grief the other faction. Eventually, I got sick of it (and of claims of being hacked and all sorts of other things), and posted a series of potential solutions. I believe the proposed solutions were A) a permanent, inactive Mod Founder that barred delegate access, B) kicking everyone out and letting it be hawked, or C) kicking everyone out and locking the region so nobody could use it. Yes, it was a heavy-handed responce, but after a single region had chewed up months of my life with endless lawlessness, it was pretty darn attractive.

We are not arguing about intervention.

It has been stated that a mod puppet has been used to warn of invasion. This is untrue. The player of that puppet is not a moderator and would not because of previous misguided behavior.

So, to reiterate:
With the exception of the agreed-upon fact that there are modpuppets now in two regions, virtually everything else stated here is speculation and/or cannot be verified by anyone since the information referenced does not currently exist, and at least one part of it is alleged by a third party never to have existed.

Is this accurate so far?


No, it could be veryfied if you would check his telegrams. Please, I am using my greatest restraint to not go into a freenzy here and my patience is dwindling.

Convincing a departing delegate to set the password, and then claiming 'we don't have to distribute it as invaders because it was already set' is specious at best. The invaders used that newly set password to enter the region and prevent defenders from assisting. Since the prior delegate did not distribute the password to all natives, the clear inference is that she gave it directly to the invaders. That, combined with Federal Imperialists' spamming of the Regional Happenings to hide (presumably) invader activity, is what resulted in his ejection and removal as delegate.

The password explanation was sent in a private telegram to Federal Imperialists, who responding on the RMB with "Okay fine, I've heard from the Mods, and I accept it, I aapologise to the region."

As for the mod takeover of the region ... ever since the Founder was deleted for cause, that region has been a bone of contention for several different factions. Several of those factions were not above using multis, failure to distribute passwords, banning of natives, and other forbidden actions to secure their tenure on the region.

Invasion is legal. Cheating is not. After spending close to four months dealing with the cheaters and continual streams of complaints about it, we decided 'Enough is enough.' A founder nation was created and regional controls were turned off. This decision was based on the Italia precedent, for much the same reasons.

There are currently 14,645 regions in this game. Holy Land is but one of them. Go somewhere else to invade.

No, it could be veryfied if you would check his telegrams. Please, I am using my greatest restraint to not go into a freenzy here and my patience is dwindling.What part of "be specific" do you not understand? I'm looking at Great-Biltain's telegrams right now, and I see nothing out of the ordinary. What, specifically, am I supposed to be seeing that will prove some great Moderator conspiracy to personally make your life miserable?

What part of "be specific" do you not understand? I'm looking at Great-Biltain's telegrams right now, and I see nothing out of the ordinary. What, specifically, am I supposed to be seeing that will prove some great Moderator conspiracy to personally make your life miserable?


Anything from the Mods

I'll post it for you:

No, we're done with the constant complaints about Holy Land invasions. Your region is part of the problem, but not all of it. This has been going on since at least July 05, and we're tired of the multiple daily complaints about the region.

Mod founder remains. Regional controls are off. If you want to battle for bragging rights to the region, go right ahead, but you can forget this colony of [whatever region] stuff. This case is closed.

This is just getting stupid at this point. Look, we all know what happened here, lets just prevent it from happening again:

You have a telegram or RMB post you need saved? Take a screen shot of your computer. Hit the "Print Screen or PrtScr" key, create a new BMP or JPG file, open it to "edit" and paste. Than upload it, maybe to www.imageshack.us, so you can PROVE that it actually heppened without having to go through all this crap....

Since when is "Conspiricy to Grief" a crime!? I think the mods need to put forth some PROOF of this charge! Is NS becoming a Police State, or more accuratly, a Mod State!?

Reguarding the TCG-Holy Land situation, if the mods didn't want to deal with the problems, they shouldn't be mods. The mods job is to uphold the TOS, not be worshiped as the gods of NS and complain when regions are having fights, and bend the rules to end the fights. In a game of.... how many players, 100,000 or so? In a game this large you shouldn't expect an easy day as a game mod. End of Story.

Ooh, and which mod was an RLA member!? Please, tell me. That would explain SO much.....

You have a telegram or RMB post you need saved? Take a screen shot of your computer. Hit the "Print Screen or PrtScr" key, create a new BMP or JPG file, open it to "edit" and paste. Than upload it, maybe to www.imageshack.us, so you can PROVE that it actually heppened without having to go through all this crap....Screen captures are not evidence. Ever heard of Photoshop?

The Getting Help Page has a capture feature that can be used for Regional Message Boards. It's there for a reason. Use it.

Reguarding the TCG-Holy Land situation, if the mods didn't want to deal with the problems, they shouldn't be mods.We don't want to deal with frivolous complaints or continued problems. If players can't be bothered to follow the rules, we take more extreme measures.

In a game of.... how many players, 100,000 or so? In a game this large you shouldn't expect an easy day as a game mod. End of Story.Yes. Far be it from us to expect the players to FOLLOW THE BLOODY RULES.

Ooh, and which mod was an RLA member!? Please, tell me. That would explain SO much.....That's a damn good question. Along with "What the hell is the RLA?"

Sarcasm never got anyone anywhere.

Oh, and now even some fendas are up in arms Pax Britannica has stated they are with the Invaders at this point.

Get your policy straight!

Is it legal or not? Why is Holy Land being protected by a Mod? It has not been griefed and there is nothing in the rules capping the amount of invasions. If the Mods are too lazy to address issues presented to them, then I agree, they SHOULDN'T BE MODS!

I call for the deletion of both new founders and a return to the normal way Invasion is fought or make Invading illegal, just get your story straight!

PS.

Why is that "up-yours" emoticon in ther? Wouldn't that just be inviting rule breaking?

Screen captures are not evidence. Ever heard of Photoshop?

The Getting Help Page has a capture feature that can be used for Regional Message Boards. It's there for a reason. Use it.

We don't want to deal with frivolous complaints or continued problems. If players can't be bothered to follow the rules, we take more extreme measures.

Yes. Far be it from us to expect the players to FOLLOW THE BLOODY RULES.

That's a damn good question. Along with "What the hell is the RLA?"


Ummmm...could you define the rules that have been broken? And I don't know exactly which Mod was RLA, the newest one. And the RLA is the Red Liberty Alliance. A fenda organisation.

Ooh, and which mod was an RLA member!? Please, tell me. That would explain SO much.....

You know, WE'VE been asking that too -- and no answers.

Yes, we kept reporting it, and we were threatend to be chastised for spamming the Getting Help page, I believe I made a thread on the forum about it as well.

You reported that a moderator puppet was involved in breaking the invasion?

And I don't know exactly which Mod was RLA, the newest one. And the RLA is the Red Liberty Alliance. A fenda organisation.

You repeatedly accused a moderator of being biased and a defender -- and refused to elaborate when asked -- and now you cannot tell us who it is because in your OWN words, you don't know.

You are stating that we censor telegrams, and then cannot tell what telegrams were censored.

You have stated that the specific instances that happened in these particular cases were announced to be the norm, which they most certainly were not.

You have accused a moderator of reading telegrams and feeding information to defenders, but have provided no proof of that either. That belief is apparently based on a cryptic message left by a puppet which leads us to:

You have accused a moderator of using a puppet to spill information about the invasions -- and it is NOT a moderator's nation.

You have claimed that there was proof on the RMB that Great-Biltain claims was never there and is, in fact, not there.


Please take a step back and consider who else has been telling you some of your information, because your sources seem less than accurate.

Screen captures are not evidence. Ever heard of Photoshop?

The Getting Help Page has a capture feature that can be used for Regional Message Boards. It's there for a reason. Use it.

Maybe a saved telegram box would help? Maybe marking a telegram could keep it from being pushed out of your box?

We don't want to deal with frivolous complaints or continued problems. If players can't be bothered to follow the rules, we take more extreme measures.

But WHO has broken the rules here? WHO!? What seems to have happened is you mods got tired of listening to the complaints, so you basically abused your powers to end the fighting. If i'm missing an event in my little timeline here, please fill me in.

I understand that you don't want to have to deal with peoples crap, but I think thats part of the job... like I said before, maybe making abuse of the GHP a TOS voilation would help you out a bit...

Yes. Far be it from us to expect the players to FOLLOW THE BLOODY RULES.

Far be it indeed. Welcome to the world of free internet gaming. Theres a reason for game mods: to deal with this kind of crap.... I'm sorry to say that if you don't like it, you can retire, because as long as NS is free and open to everyone this is going to happen again and again and again.

That's a damn good question. Along with "What the hell is the RLA?"

RLA = Red Liberty Alliance, defenders. If there really is an RLA member who is a mod, i'd LOVE to know about it, it would explain everything, but until I see a name its all just speculation.

Now, my only problem with this situaton is that the invaders did NOT seem to be breaking any rules. Were they? If so, please explain when and how.

If they are indeed innocent of rulebreaking, than this decision was a terrible one.

Christ, here I am, AGAIN, in the mod section debating with you mods about the TOS. If you can't even follow it, why the HELL should we!? Invasions are either allowed or disallowed, I see nothing, nowhere that explains certian parameters of who is and isn't allowed to invade, where and when....

So please, enlighten us all: What rules were broken by the TCG invaders? Will the TCG "Mod Puppet" remain forever? Are invasions still allowed? Will the mods begin to give into mass bitching by everyone not associated with the invaders?

I'd love to hear the Mod's explainations. But apparently they aren't going to answer, isn't that great? Perhaps we have uncovered the biggest cover-up of NationStates' history...:confused:

Not really, your charges have no basis. Although as Pirates Roost said, the Mods tend to have some defneder bias. (I am a raider not a defender or neutral.)

I'd love to hear the Mod's explainations. But apparently they aren't going to answer, isn't that great? Perhaps we have uncovered the biggest cover-up of NationStates' history...:confused:
15 of the 48 responses in this thread have been from mods. Many of them have asked for clarification of whatever the hell it is you seem to think we're covering up. You've thrown out vague suppositions and random comments with absolutely nothing to back them up.

For the final time before this thread is locked:

1) What is your accusation?

2) Where is your proof?

Accusation:

Unfare Treatment

Proof: You must have recieved hundreds of complaints during the TNP invasion. No Mods set there. Why Holy Land? Is complaining a crime?

Where and how do you go about doing that?

Also, a nation who you banned from posting on RMB's is asking me to be his voice, Is that against the rules? I didnt see it anywhere - but just checking - dont wanna be silenced like some other people involved.

Try reading the One Stop Rules Shop, and using it, if you really must ? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9530191&postcount=9)

Regarding The Che Guerillas, if some nations were breaking the rules they should be warned or punished by the mods in an appropriate manner; that is the purpose of having mods isn't it? For the mods to simply throw up their hands in frustration and take over the whole region appears to be both a dereliction of their duty as mods, and collective punishment.

There needs to be clear defined regulation about something of this nature. "to many complaints" isnt against the rules, just means a lot of people dont like something. Many people dont like invasion, so what, it is built into the game. If they dont like it, they can complain or move out, apparently, the complainers won this one. A simple Mod Telegram to them stating that their complaints would have been a bit easier than this, I think. Even though Invaders cannot have UN Delegate settings in Holy Land, can they still invade ;) Perhaps that is something to do. I mean, if People have complained about Holy Land for five months, then if we complain about the Mods for five months, will they just throw their hands up again, and let us have it back?! - I dont advocate compaining, but I do advocate playing this game properly, and invasion being part of the game, why not keep invading HL? It wouldnt prove much, but hey, nether does any normal invasion. One thing I have learned from all this is to not use the Game Telegrams. Deleate them immediatly after reading, and save EVERYTHING, If the only way to save messages is to report them through Getting Help, then I guess I will be using it a bit more. There is no other option after all, No screenshots, and ya cant keep messages if you are bombarded by more than 10 (or is it 15?).

Ah, hypocrisy ... gotta love it. As well as using someone elses problem to forward your own agendas. Not to mention weak 'arguments' and appeals to pity or emotions rather than fact, namecalling, insults, etc. No really, bravo.

I think many of us are still waiting for the specific charges and solid proof that have been asked for repeatedly through this thread, rather than the rhetoric and ranting so many of you seem fond of. I know I'm curious.

So where is it?

---------------------------------------

As for folks complaining about continued invasion - lock your region. No more problems. It isn't as though people who might like to join can't make use of the TG feature to ask for admission. You don't want invaders? Lock them out. Problem solved. Need for whining eliminated. Amazing how that works.

Moderator use of temp founder? I don't see a problem with doing that to stifle an obviously out of control situation til facts can be sorted out and a solution arrived at. It's a lose/lose situation for the mods anyway. They do something, they get yelled at. They do nothing, they get yelled at. They solve it, they get yelled at. Thankless job, boys and girls - and there is no way they're going to keep everyone happy about it.

Do you have a right to make complaints? Of course - I don't see them denying you that. There's been things done I haven't agreed with, and still don't. Go ahead - make yourself heard on it. They may not like what you have to say all the time, but they do listen.

Do you have a right to turn that expression of opinion into outright harrassment? Hell no. Perhaps if some of you learned more effective ways of a) expressing yourselves, b) presenting your evidence, c) taking some accountability for your own actions and words, you might not be having some of the troubles you are. They do after all, make mistakes - and I've seen them both admit it and take steps to rectify it when they have. Documented in threads right here in Moderation, that.

And lastly, to those yapping about 'if you can't sit there and enjoy having shit thrown at you, get out of the mod biz' - I don't see you handling having a bit tossed back your way very well. It is your responsibility to read up on the rules and TOS and to uphold them. If more people did, we wouldn't have to have mods to take care of things. And if you can't be arsed to show some measure of maturity and handle that, perhaps this isn't the right game for you.

It isn't the mod's responsibility to make us behave - it's ours. It's just their sorry task to give us a nudge when we choose not to do so.

First no I'm not, I know both of them.
Unless you have another nation I'm familiar with, no, we do not know each other.


For the record, I have never been involved in the "RLA". I don't even know what the RLA is.

I'm speechless, the amount of hypocracy in the Moderating Team is truely outstanding. Pity, I once actualy thoguht the Mods had some integrity, but this generation of Mods is just what shall destroy NationStates, Defenders NEED Invaders to exist, Invaders would THRIVE without Defenders, once you take away the Invaders, you wont have War, it just takes anythign interesting out of the game.

Its stupid and only can be the product of a corrupt Mod, I believe its Fris and a few helpers.

If you want to be worshiped as the Gods of NationStates, try doing some useful work for once. Is that so much to ask for?

Ah, hypocrisy ... gotta love it. As well as using someone elses problem to forward your own agendas. Not to mention weak 'arguments' and appeals to pity or emotions rather than fact, namecalling, insults, etc. No really, bravo.

I think many of us are still waiting for the specific charges and solid proof that have been asked for repeatedly through this thread, rather than the rhetoric and ranting so many of you seem fond of. I know I'm curious.

So where is it?

---------------------------------------

As for folks complaining about continued invasion - lock your region. No more problems. It isn't as though people who might like to join can't make use of the TG feature to ask for admission. You don't want invaders? Lock them out. Problem solved. Need for whining eliminated. Amazing how that works.

Moderator use of temp founder? I don't see a problem with doing that to stifle an obviously out of control situation til facts can be sorted out and a solution arrived at. It's a lose/lose situation for the mods anyway. They do something, they get yelled at. They do nothing, they get yelled at. They solve it, they get yelled at. Thankless job, boys and girls - and there is no way they're going to keep everyone happy about it.

Do you have a right to make complaints? Of course - I don't see them denying you that. There's been things done I haven't agreed with, and still don't. Go ahead - make yourself heard on it. They may not like what you have to say all the time, but they do listen.

Do you have a right to turn that expression of opinion into outright harrassment? Hell no. Perhaps if some of you learned more effective ways of a) expressing yourselves, b) presenting your evidence, c) taking some accountability for your own actions and words, you might not be having some of the troubles you are. They do after all, make mistakes - and I've seen them both admit it and take steps to rectify it when they have. Documented in threads right here in Moderation, that.

And lastly, to those yapping about 'if you can't sit there and enjoy having shit thrown at you, get out of the mod biz' - I don't see you handling having a bit tossed back your way very well. It is your responsibility to read up on the rules and TOS and to uphold them. If more people did, we wouldn't have to have mods to take care of things. And if you can't be arsed to show some measure of maturity and handle that, perhaps this isn't the right game for you.

It isn't the mod's responsibility to make us behave - it's ours. It's just their sorry task to give us a nudge when we choose not to do so.


They got to you too? Horrible how they work, it really is. You sir are brainwashed.

I'm speechless, the amount of hypocracy in the Moderating Team is truely outstanding. Pity, I once actualy thoguht the Mods had some integrity, but this generation of Mods is just what shall destroy NationStates, Defenders NEED Invaders to exist, Invaders would THRIVE without Defenders, once you take away the Invaders, you wont have War, it just takes anythign interesting out of the game.

Its stupid and only can be the product of a corrupt Mod, I believe its Fris and a few helpers.

If you want to be worshiped as the Gods of NationStates, try doing some useful work for once. Is that so much to ask for?
Please take a step back and think before you throw such accusations around. You have provided no concrete evidence to support your claims, so how can you expect to receive the justice that you believe you're entitled to?

The moderators are volunteers who perform countless tasks for us players that are most definitely 'useful'. Get some perspective, for heaven's sake.

I'm speechless, the amount of hypocracy in the Moderating Team is truely outstanding. Pity, I once actualy thoguht the Mods had some integrity, but this generation of Mods is just what shall destroy NationStates, Defenders NEED Invaders to exist, Invaders would THRIVE without Defenders, once you take away the Invaders, you wont have War, it just takes anythign interesting out of the game.
Yet you've provided absolutely no proof or evidence of such bias. Katganistan politely asked you to provide some, and I ask you again, please provide something for us. Continuing to make accusations against us with nothing to hold them up is pointless.

Its stupid and only can be the product of a corrupt Mod, I believe its Fris and a few helpers.
Nice job at accusing my colleague, Frisbeeteria, of being involved in something that he isn't involved in, along with absolutely no evidence pointing towards it (Not that there would be any evidence in the first place).

If you want to be worshiped as the Gods of NationStates, try doing some useful work for once. Is that so much to ask for?

Yes, because apparently 104,345 actions isn't good enough for you, especially with 44457 by yours truly, Frisbeeteria, not even counting all of the forum moderator actions done as well, such as the compilation of The One-Stop Rules Shop, and the compression of stickies in every forum, the work we dealt with when the game crashed not too long ago, and every other situation we've been given.

--- All Moderator Actions ---
44457 : Frisbeeteria
23586 : Katganistan
11695 : Sirocco
6551 : Scolopendra
5641 : Cogitation
3639 : The Most Glorious Hack
2900 : GMC Military Arms
2006 : SalusaSecondus
1970 : Reploid Productions
741 : Melkor Unchained
617 : Myrth
417 : Karmabaijan
98 : [violet]
27 : Menelmacar

They got to you too? Horrible how they work, it really is. You sir are brainwashed.
Note to Federal Imperialists: Dread Lady Nathicana.

They got to you too? Horrible how they work, it really is. You sir are brainwashed.

And you 'sir', are acting like the NS Villiage Idiot of the Week. No winner today, folks. Thank you for playing - please try again, have a nice day.



(And please note, those of you who are following the score here, our dear Feddies has yet to offer anything of content. Just more bluster, flames, and gloating over his own 'wit'. Rather telling, that.

Please also note this 'invader/defender' thing was never something the game started with - it was developed by players, not the site developer/owner. While I wouldn't wish to take away other's ideas of 'in game fun' within the bounds of rules, we did just fine without it before. I imagine, if we had to, we'd do just fine without it again. Would just be a pity to ruin it over a few bad apples. Don't flatter yourself with delusions of grandeur and overinflated ideas on your own importance. Many more formidable mod-haters than yourself have come and gone, and the game is still here, going strong.

Oh, and yes. I'm anything but a 'sir'. Grazie, Euro.

Proof ... proof ... where the devil is that elusive proof ... enquiring minds want to know ...)

A request: Can we have less..... whats the word..... "Mod Groupies" posting here, and more mods? I understand you folks want to look good in front of the mods in hopes that you will be noticed one day, but this isn't the time or the place. Were trying to get things done here.....

A request: Can we have less..... whats the word..... "Mod Groupies" posting here, and more mods? I understand you folks want to look good in front of the mods in hopes that you will be noticed one day, but this isn't the time or the place. Were trying to get things done here.....
You are? Then for Odin's sake DO SO!

Jesh. The arguments presented have all boiled down to "You did it! You know you did!"

You are? Then for Odin's sake DO SO!

Jesh. The arguments presented have all boiled down to "You did it! You know you did!"

I cannot do anything until the mods read my last post, the long one on page 4 which is being ignored.

For "Odin's sake" please go read it.....

Were trying to get things done here.....
We have been asking for two days exactly what you're 'trying to get done here', and the clearest answer so far has been Unfare TreatmentWe have given ample opportunity for response from any interested party. I posted a detailed and complete answer on why Holy Land was Modfounded, and why the invader delegate was ejected. Nobody has disputed my account with any facts that alter the ruling, or any clear evidence of any sort that there was 'unfare' treatment.

The one pointed accusation about "Euroslavia" being a member of RLA, when in fact it's EuroSoviets, a totally unrelated player, has been proven false. Accusations have been made that mods released information to defenders, but absolutely no one has given any indication of how that happened to come about. It's unlikely any such evidence will ever be found, as it didn't happen.

In fact, the trigger of this whole chain of events was a task posted by some nation wondering if it was legal for an invader delegate to spam-clear the Regional Happenings. (It's not.) Whether that reporting nation was native, invader, defender, or simply a passerby wasn't even investigated, much less a factor.

Since nobody seems to be able to come up with anything further apart from generalisations and unsupported accusations, I'm closing this.

There were responses made while I was typing, so I'll reopen this for additional comment.

A request: Can we have less..... whats the word..... "Mod Groupies" posting here, and more mods? I understand you folks want to look good in front of the mods in hopes that you will be noticed one day, but this isn't the time or the place. Were trying to get things done here.....

Here's a return request: Can we have less pointless rants, baseless accusations, and misdirection and more actual content? I'm a player who has as much right to post here as anyone else using the game. You think I'm hoping to get noticed? Check yourself, and check the sig. Or at least stop displacing your angst over having blown whatever hopes you'd secretly harbored with your less than stellar attitudes.

You say you're trying to get things done? Fine and well. Stop 'trying' and 'do' it already. Those of us curious to see this 'proof' are still waiting. You don't have to be a 'mod groupie' to have some concern over how things are being run.

So please, enlighten us all: What rules were broken by the TCG invaders? Will the TCG "Mod Puppet" remain forever? Are invasions still allowed? Will the mods begin to give into mass bitching by everyone not associated with the invaders?

Can I get answered? If your going to simpally IGNORE my posts, don't sit there and say that I haven't said anything...

And please, don't close this. This situation is obviously not over, closing this will just further piss some folks off....

Hello, I have nothing to do with the Holy Land, but I was involved in the rather... erm... unsuccessful... liberation of The Che Guerillas. Immediately after we got schooled by the invader delegate we began making plans for a second attempt.

It was quite a shock to come on the next day and discover that the highly-contested region had simply been taken over by a mod. The official explaination on the WFE is this: "We're tired of the constant fighting. Live in peace or leave; it's all the same to us."

The follow-up RMB post was this: "No, you misunderstand. We're tired of the hundreds of complaints from this region: now there's nothing to argue over."

My question is, what does it matter if spoil-sports complain a lot? Even if someone broke the rules, the nation should be punished, not the region and everyone involved.

My position would be different if there was widespread cheating/rulebreaking, but this has not even been suggested by the mods. Instead, the rationale is the simple volume of complaints.

I'm not accusing the mods of any wide-spread "conspiracy" or anything like that, I just want to know what happened in this particular situation.

This was far and away the most interesting invasion/liberation I've ever been involved in, and I was rather upset to see it settled in this way.

Can I get answered? If your going to simpally IGNORE my posts, don't sit there and say that I haven't said anything...Terribly sorry about that. I'll quit my job, kick my fiancee out of the apartment and stop sleeping so that I can get rid of all those distractions to dealing with your complaints.

Its stupid and only can be the product of a corrupt Mod, I believe its Fris and a few helpers.I'm only going to say this once: YOU WILL PROVIDE EVIDENCE WHEN MAKING COMPLAINTS OF MODERATOR CORRUPTION.

Do you understand that? Can I make it any more crystal clear? I'm sick to death of baseless accusations of Moderator corruption. This is not something we take lightly, and we do not tolerate players who make claims like this and refuse to provide evidence. Just ask Sheol.

Oh, wait... [violet] IP Banned him for his continued attacks.

If I see any more accusations in this thread of Moderator corruption without hard evidence, I will request an Administrator to issue a ban.

And in case anybody missed it: vague assertations, non-existant regional messages, non-existant telegrams, and circumstantial evidence are not sufficient. Moderator corruption is a serious charge, and requires solid evidence. To borrow from the late Carl Sagan: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

-----

Now then, I'm going to do something that nobody has bothered to do, despite all the bitching: I'm forwarding this for a Final Appeal. For those unfamiliar, this procedure was created by Salusa:

If you feel that the first appeal was unjust, you may post a final appeal via the Getting Help page. Please be sure to note in your request that this is a final appeal. The appeal will be logged where all mods and admins may see it, and it will be judged by a panel of four or more mods, including at least one Senior Game Mod or Admin. The original ruling moderator will recuse himself from this appeal, but may be the one who posts the response. Be aware that frivolous appeals may result in warnings to your nation. Most forum warnings and minor forumbans are likely to be considered frivolous. Final appeals may take several days, so be patient.

Admins may at any time overrule the combined decision of the moderators. There will be no need to email [violet], SalusaSecondus, or Max Barry, as they will have full access to the complaint, discussion, and final ruling.The two regions in question (Che and Holy Land) were handled by two different Moderators, and they will both recuse themselves from this process.

The floorshow is over.

This topic will remain unlocked in case anyone has any evidence to add for the review. Any posts that contain anything other than evidence will be deleted and the poster forumbanned for at least a day. The bitching is going to stop, and I don't care which side you're on.

Now then, please understand that the vast majority of the staff is American, consequently, most of us will have spotty attendance until Monday or so, because of the Thanksgiving weekend. Chances are that this won't even be looked at until Monday. Considering the amount of time Final Appeals take, it may be awhile before we're done reviewing. Please be patient. If a week goes by (November 28th or so) and there's no reply, a single bump is fine. We aren't about to forget about this, but such a gentle reminder is acceptable.

I really hope this is perfectly clear to everyone involved.

-The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game Moderator

Thanks for the Appeal

Heh, wow, glad I came back and saw the above deletion....

Still never answered my question though, but I guess asking again would be against the rules....

Bumping for interested parties.

We haven't forgotten about this, we're just still reviewing. Final appeals take awhile, especially when two Game Mods are sitting it out, and even more so over holidays.

Thank you for your patience.