NationStates Jolt Archive

Could a different moderator please review the case of the Bayern Celtic deletion? It would be unfair for the person who deleted him review his own decision in the matter. All we're asking is for someone to say "Yes, he broke the rules, here is the rule he directly broke" or reinstate the nation.

" Katganistan
NationStates Moderator Team

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: A wonderful town... the Bronx is up and the Battery's down...
Posts: 6,102

It bothers me that you're making this a thread for debate, and for mod bashing. Closing it until the moderator who handled this case reviews it."


Example of the mistake made:

After a review of the rules, Bayern Celtic should be revived. Which mod(s) did this action, as it was seemingly arbitrary according to the rules laid down. All BC did was move spam off the regional board, and this was the reason given for deletion. Below that we see what BC did to get the deletion was not illegal.

Please revive Bayern Celtic in Celtic now.

Apparently the founder DOES have the right to clear his region board of spam by spamming the boards with soccer/football scores like Bayern Celtic did. Read below:

"NationStates Moderators
Received: 2 days ago Bayern Celtic was deleted for spamming the Celtic RMB. Being founder does not give you the right to do so. It was not your first warning, either, thus the deletion.
As for your two requests within 30 minutes of each other - we don't monitor the tasklist in realtime. We'll get to your requests when we get to them.

"29-10-2005, 10:31 PM #14
Scolopendra
NationStates Moderator Team


Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wherever my feet are planted
Posts: 12,027 Quote:
Originally Posted by The Noble Men
From this, combined with the Mod decisions of this thread, would I be wrong in saying a Founder can grief all (s)he wants, but cannot be griefed even with his/her permission?

The Founder made the region; it's the Founder's region to do with what she pleases. The Founder cannot be griefed (even with his/her permission) because we don't have the time to ascertain permission issues in every single griefing case, oftentimes the "evidence" of "permission" (such as telegrams) ends up getting deleted by users, and I can say without hesitation that the "we had permission" excuse has been used before when it was just a bold-faced lie.

So, yes, that's pretty much what we've been saying from the start. Good job.


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29-10-2005, 10:33 PM #15
Crazy girl
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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Yup, getting there Noble, founder nation can grief his own region, but can't give others permission to do so.

They know. Just give them time.

Spamming moderation (in your case, starting a thread that had been closed) is also a bad idea.

Bad idea restarting the thread.

Thanks for the advice. The thread was closed because of what the other person in the thread wrote, not me.

I tried to message a moderator on here but it didn't work. I wanted to get the point across that it didn't make sense that the moderator that made the initial ruling, which the game rules turn out to show as a mistake, be the one to make the final decision on this as we are all human. That's the only reason for this post :)

Bad idea restarting the thread.

Why? The last thread was not closed due to anything I wrote, due to the other person's comments. Please read my comments regarding re-starting the thread, thanks :)

"Thanks for the advice. The thread was closed because of what the other person in the thread wrote, not me.

I tried to message a moderator on here but it didn't work. I wanted to get the point across that it didn't make sense that the moderator that made the initial ruling, which the game rules turn out to show as a mistake, be the one to make the final decision on this as we are all human. That's the only reason for this post "

Restarting the thread is just going to annoy the mods and it won't get this mess sorted any faster. The mods do have real lifes and it could be that the mod in question is currently offline and will read the other thread when they get the chance.

Thanks for the advice. The thread was closed because of what the other person in the thread wrote, not me.

I tried to message a moderator on here but it didn't work. I wanted to get the point across that it didn't make sense that the moderator that made the initial ruling, which the game rules turn out to show as a mistake, be the one to make the final decision on this as we are all human. That's the only reason for this post :)
You just have to wait. The starting of this new thread doesn't help your case, since the moderators already stated that they are reviewing it. Just cool down, okay?!

I am new to this type of thing so didn't know, all apologies. :)

Thanks for the advice. The thread was closed because of what the other person in the thread wrote, not me.

The other thread was closed to stop the discussion while the moderators consider the case. I don't think that Katganistan was saying that a decision had been made - just that further discussion would serve no point at this time and could cause people to say things they might later regret.

From my reading, the "you" in her message referred to another poster in that thread, not you.

Give them some time to look at the case.

For heaven's sake, would you give us a chance to deal with this?

You've made a Getting Help Request.
You've made multiple threads.
You've encouraged your region to make multiple petitions.
You've posted past lock which in itself is warnable.
Seriously, we get the idea. Chill out.

I have been contacted in response to this request to deliver a ruling. I had nothing to do with the original handling of the Bayern Celtic case, and I feel I've reviewed it sufficiently so as to deliver a ruling. Being that the appeals process has changed somewhat (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9530191&postcount=9), this is a final appeal and the ruling delivered here should end this dicussion.

So take a deep breath and sit your ass down, because this is the last time we will discuss this issue on-site. Don't post about it here or file any new GHR's about it: doing so will be considered an actionable offense.

Now, on to business. Bayern Celtic had a good case, being that we don't generally delete or warn Founders for spamming up their own RMB. This, (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=288255) however, seems to indicate that we may reserve the right to do so unless the Founder's clearing posts consist of nothing more than "---clearing spam---" or "Founder Clearing Spam" or some such equivalent.

However, I feel that Bayern Celtic has done a few things to damage and eventually destroy his chances. Appealing a moderator decision is okay, but doing so repeatedly when we're not even being paid to put up with this shit is not. As has already been pointed out, we don't review the Tasklist in real-time, so it's often difficult to dispense with the rulings fast enough. Given the degree to which BC has pushed this issue, I am forced to rule against his reinstatement, on the grounds that he felt it necessary to harass us in the process of attempting to do so. Reinstating his nation now would be like letting a crying dog out of his cage: he [and those around him] will quickly come to learn that if they whine loud enough, frequently enough, that those in power will acquiesce to their demands.

As far as I'm concerned, this deletion will stand for the time being. If BC's warning tag weren't already so long, I may not have a problem reversing this ruling, but that coupled with his....er... persistence in attempting to resolve this issue is of no help to his case.

Just to update Melkor's link to the old Rules Sticky, here's the content from the One Stop Rules Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8784627&postcount=2) that captures the same text. That ruling has been in place since long before the OSRS thread was created in April of this year.
Regional Messageboard Spam: Spamming a regional messageboard. Only Founder nations may clear the spam. It helps if you clear it with messages saying '--clearing spam--' or something to avoid being accused of spamming yourself. (Delegates and other nations controlled by the Founder MAY NOT substitute for the founder. If your region has no active founder, you may NOT clear spam.) Nations who keep spamming a particular region are Griefers which is far more serious. Report RMS using the Getting Help Page (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=help).

For the record, the post used multiple times to clear / spam the messageboard was Celtic 2- Rangers 0!
CIS Insurance Cup Win

Maloney and Klos (Own goal haha) score for Celtic

November 19th, the Old Firm square off again... Celtic vs Rangers Scottish Premier League match.

http://s14.invisionfree.com/Celtic/

Let's review:

BC was wrongfully deleted, even by mods admission. Righteous indignation provokes a response.

I apologized here for writing another thread, and going overboard, then am compared to a dog yelping trying to get out of a cage?

The analogy alone was disgusting, as well as the over-reaction. I asked others in my review for help, and I lodge requests with a mod. All of my requests have been polite. Alaois was the one that got the other thread locked, not me. We are two different people.

I opened this thread to petition for a different mod to hear the case, and then apologized for it later. I have not petitioned the mods any further, nor have I requested in the FAQ page for more than seven hours.

This has got to be one of the most aggregious cases ever in NS. I understand you don't get paid for this "shit", but we didn't put time and energy into creating a region to leave it founderless because someone made a mistake.

As for the "warning tags", almost every founder of a region that is griefed repeatedly gets those. You get one every time you eject more than one person, and this does not indicate BC did anything wrong.

In closing, this ruling makes no sense. Because I attempted to get some help and attention for being wronged I am the one that gets doubly screwed? Again, I appreciate your time, but this is simply crazy.

There is no reason BC should not be revived. I am no longer going to lodge complaints on the FAQ page, or do anything to further upset you, but there needs to be justice.

If you were convicted of killing someone you didn't kill, then you were sent to death row, would the judge keep you on death row if the evidence you present turns out to be correct, just because you were too persistent... or in this case a DOG IN A CAGE.

Sorry, but I am a person, and I was wronged, along with my entire region. People get upset, and I apologized on this thread twice even before this ruling. Take this all into account, and do the right thing.

"It helps if you clear it with messages saying '--clearing spam--' or something to avoid being accused of spamming yourself. "

Thank you for further proving that Bayern Celtic should be re-instated. Note that this says, "It helps if you clear the messages saying"... this is far from a rule. However, this is the rule:

"The Founder made the region; it's the Founder's region to do with what she pleases. The Founder cannot be griefed (even with his/her permission) because we don't have the time to ascertain permission issues in every single griefing case, oftentimes the "evidence" of "permission" (such as telegrams) ends up getting deleted by users, and I can say without hesitation that the "we had permission" excuse has been used before when it was just a bold-faced lie. "

and ... "Yup, getting there Noble, founder nation can grief his own region, but can't give others permission to do so."

:)



Let's review:

BC was wrongfully deleted, even by mods admission. Righteous indignation provokes a response.

I apologized here for writing another thread, and going overboard, then am compared to a dog yelping trying to get out of a cage?

The analogy alone was disgusting, as well as the over-reaction. I asked others in my review for help, and I lodge requests with a mod. All of my requests have been polite. Alaois was the one that got the other thread locked, not me. We are two different people.

I opened this thread to petition for a different mod to hear the case, and then apologized for it later. I have not petitioned the mods any further, nor have I requested in the FAQ page for more than seven hours.

This has got to be one of the most aggregious cases ever in NS. I understand you don't get paid for this "shit", but we didn't put time and energy into creating a region to leave it founderless because someone made a mistake.

As for the "warning tags", almost every founder of a region that is griefed repeatedly gets those. You get one every time you eject more than one person, and this does not indicate BC did anything wrong.

In closing, this ruling makes no sense. Because I attempted to get some help and attention for being wronged I am the one that gets doubly screwed? Again, I appreciate your time, but this is simply crazy.

There is no reason BC should not be revived. I am no longer going to lodge complaints on the FAQ page, or do anything to further upset you, but there needs to be justice.

If you were convicted of killing someone you didn't kill, then you were sent to death row, would the judge keep you on death row if the evidence you present turns out to be correct, just because you were too persistent... or in this case a DOG IN A CAGE.

Sorry, but I am a person, and I was wronged, along with my entire region. People get upset, and I apologized on this thread twice even before this ruling. Take this all into account, and do the right thing.

C was wrongfully deleted, even by mods admission.
Wrong. I said: "Bayern Celtic had a good case, being that we don't generally delete or warn Founders for spamming up their own RMB." This is not tantamount to a "wrongful deletion" because as mentioned in my post we reserve the right to DEAT for any spam other than "clearing spam" if we have to.

I'd probably have overturned this ruling if you would have been a bit more patient about all of this in any event. My main concern here is not why you were deleted, but rather why you felt the need to harass us incessantly on account. One thread in moderation is enough, as is one GHR. You don't have to and really shouldn't enlist the aid of your friends to complain on your behalf either, as it generally only serves to badger us, which we don't like. Everyone else has to stand in line, so should you. Making two or three threads here and filing 4 or 5 GHRs is a little excessive for an appeal.

Furthermore, a ruling has been delivered and complaining about it wont bring Bayern Celtic back, and it definately won't make any of us any more sympathetic to your plight. You want my honest adivce about what you should do if you don't like it? Find something else to do with your time.