NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been dealing with this situation for several days now, here it is compiled:

My latest TG to the mods:

I'm again requesting the restoral of my nation, The New Soviet State. It was deleted by a moderator action under circumstances which do not seem to have broken any stated rule. Also, I am unable to access the Jolt forums to discuss this problem, I get an error which reads "VB_AREA or THIS_SCRIPT must be defined to continue".

To give some background on this situation, as of a few days ago another user, who has since been deleted, spammed my regions RMB, calling my mother a "slag" and saying that we (my mother and myself) should be tested for AIDS. I responded by kicking and reporting his nation, and stating on the RMB that he was soon to be deleted for what he said (flaming is a clear breach of NS rules).

A few hours later I return to find that his nation is not deleted, but MINE is. On the RMB a moderator posted "It is up to MODERATORS and ADMINISTRATORS who gets deleted and who desen't!" (Exact wording is lost due to RMB movement, but this was the point of what was posted). I responded to the mod using this form, citing the other users use of the flames. The moderator responded with the following Telegram:

"Requesting? No, you STATED on the RMB that *The Other Person* WAS soon to be deleted... and funny enough, when I saw his telegrams, YOU sent him one that said he just needed to die.

This is not an overreaction. This is what happens when you try to use us as weapons to get rid of people you do not like, and when you act as if you have the authority to decide what nations are deleted and which aren't."

I responded admitting to sending the telegram (I said something to the affect that he needed to crawl up into a ball and die, only after he telegramed some other flame to me) and citing that he was not deleted for flaming, yet, appeareltny, I was deleted for making a prediction. As i've stated above, I reported him for flaming, and as a veteran user of Nationstates I was 100% sure he would be deleted for making such a comment as he did on the RMB, so naturally I reassured the rest of the region that he WAS soon to be deleted, as he eventually was (only after my responce to the moderator cited what he said, by the way). I was not in any way trying to use the mod as a weapon to get rid of someone I "Didn't like", the only thing i'm guilty of is filing a report against a flamer. I don't think I should be deleted for this, or for stating something that DID end up being true.

Again, I request the restoration of my nation, The New Soviet State, as I feel it was unfairly deleted for a reason that is not against the NS TOS or any other stated or implied rule.

**Mod TGed me**

"You do not need to keep sending this appeal. There are about 5 or 6 of these accumulating in our "In Progress" bins while we try to get to reviewing it. In case you hadn't noticed, the forums are down and we're rather busy with the other 300 tasks per day we're getting wondering why.

We WILL review your deletion. It just may take a few days."

Ok, Its just that yesterday the moderator was very quick to act in deleting me, so I assumed that the review would be equally as quick. I noticed the forums are down, i've been trying to get on for several days now. Good to know its not just me or my computer thats not able to access them.....

Sorry for the amount of reports i've filed for this, I am just concerned about regional invaders/crashers and such. I will now await moderator rewiew of my situation.

***

Anyway, now that i'm able to get on the forums, i'd like to discuss this with someone directly.

An intresting rule I found:

"Mods as a Weapon: Threatening another nation with moderation action if they don't do "action" is not allowed. Representing yourself as a moderator is considered impersonation, and is not allowed. Reporting rule-breakers through the Getting Help page or the Moderation forum is not only allowed, but encouraged. Doing so maliciously or spamming Moderation with questionable requests may invoke a penalty, at the Mod's discretion."

I belive this is what I was accused of. If a moderator will look at the post I made in the region "Peoples Revolutionary Party" I did NOT threaten the person with moderation, I simpally stated that he would be moderated for flaming, which he was. I belive my exact term was that he "Will be deleted", which he was, but I only said this because I recognised the severe TOS voilation his post was.

Hmmm, well you should not have presumed that the mods would take action. You should have just reported it in the getting help page and leave it at that.

//not a mod at all

Maybe I shouldn't have, but the fact is that by doing so I didn't break any rules. The guy WAS deleted for what he said, so its not like I was just blowing smoke....

I'm just saying that I don't think its fair that my nation is deleted and my region thrown into turmiol over something so stupid thats not even a TOS violation.

Can I suggest you at least edit out the names from your account? Also, I would have thought a GHR might be a better way of dealing with your problem, simply because it will help the mods deal with your case in confidentiality.

Not exactally what GHR is, but i've edited out the other persons name.

Not exactally what GHR is, but i've edited out the other persons name.

Getting Help Request. On the Getting Help Page (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help), linked from the FAQ. Just a suggestion.

Already done, thats how I got thoose mod responces, but that seems to be taking quite awhile and I don't know who the hell i'm talking to when I have to go through a form.

Multiple moderators have reviewed the situation and the requests you have made, Communist Italy. Here's how it stands.

Had you reported the other nation for flaming, asked us to do something about it, and left it at that, the rest of the events which upset you would not have happened.

You wrote that the flaming nation and all others held by that player should be deleted for flaming you in telegrams and on the RMB, and stated that you know the person in real life. However, given the history we had on the nation that made the remarks on the RMB, they were not at that time worthy of deletion. The nation had been warned, and the RMB was being cleaned of the flame.

I direct you to your statements here:
I simpally stated that he would be moderated for flaming, which he was. I belive my exact term was that he "Will be deleted", which he was, but I only said this because I recognised the severe TOS voilation his post was.

You decided to act as an authority and announce only a short time after your GHP request was made that the player, whom you also flamed by calling a moron, was soon to be deleted from the game -- a call you did not have the authority to make, which was incorrect at the time that you made it, which certainly had not been confirmed from anyone on the moderation team, and which coupled with your telegram telling him he needed to die added up to a deletion.

You attempt to justify yourself by saying that you broke no rules. Speaking as if you have the authority of a moderator is an infraction that others have been deleted for, as the regular readers of the moderation forum know well.

You also say, "The guy WAS deleted for what he said, so its not like I was just blowing smoke...." This is, in fact, incorrect. Ironically, his deletion later that day was for a flaming telegram later reported by another nation, coupled with his gloating over your nation's demise on the RMB of your region.

You claim we have not moved quickly on this. How so? The New soviet State was deleted 20 October 2005. It is now 22 October 2005, and only just at 1:48am where I sit. 'Several days' is something of an exaggeration.

After discussion with a number of the team members, the decision to delete The New Soviet State has been decided to have been justified. It will stand.

To the Mods:

"You attempt to justify yourself by saying that you broke no rules. Speaking as if you have the authority of a moderator is an infraction that others have been deleted for, as the regular readers of the moderation forum know well."

Why is it that nobody else read the post in the same way that the moderators did!? I was NOT acting as I had moderator powers, I was simpally stating something that DID TURN OUT TO BE TRUE!!!

"You also say, "The guy WAS deleted for what he said, so its not like I was just blowing smoke...." This is, in fact, incorrect. Ironically, his deletion later that day was for a flaming telegram later reported by another nation, coupled with his gloating over your nation's demise on the RMB of your region."

So.... I WAS RIGHT WHEN I SAID HE SHOULD HAVE JUST BEEN DELETED IN THE FIRST PLACE, WASN'T I!?

And when I say you "Didn't move quickly" I ment in comparison to to the time it took you to make the innital decidion, a period of maybe 2 hours after theese events took place my nation was deleted, while its taken 2 DAYS to get the responce i'm again having to respond to.

I'm sorry, I know you guys are busy over there as NS is a big community, but I refuse to accept this deletion, Its simpally unfair and the eventual deletion of the person I reported LATER THAT DAY only tells me that I was right.

If you'll look at my history, i've been an NS player for around a year and a half now. The only times i've required moderation were in my first few months here, when I had UN multis, and a few times for spamming (before I knew the rules about recruitment).

My point is that a situation where the TOS voilation was minimal, or nonexistant, should NOT result in the deletion of my main nation, a nation which is the founder of a region of 60 people!

Look, all I want is for my region to be safe really. Do you think you could make either this nation, Marturia Centrale, or New Al Sahla the founder of Peoples Revolutionary Party? If you can do that i'll accept this moderation, although in the future I'm not going to be so quick as to file reports for TOS voilations...

" However, given the history we had on the nation that made the remarks on the RMB, they were not at that time worthy of deletion. "

Ok, He called my mother a name and said that me and her needed AIDS testing, and I called him a moron and told him to drop dead. According to you theese are not what caused the deletions, as the context of a flame is appearently unimportant, so fine, lets just forget that.

My argument here pretty much stands as I was right when I said that the guy WAS going to be deleted, as he WAS deleted, and I was also right when I said in my innital report that that player has nothing more to add to the game and you might aswell just delete him.

Later that day he was deleted, proving me right.

Am I psychic? No. Did I hack NS and delete him? No. I just said what I was sure would happen and was right about it.

As I understand it...

The nation wasn't deleted just because of your report, but for other actions added to it. Flaming does not always result in deletion. Mods can also give a player an official or unofficial warning. As you are not a mod, you can't say a certain player will get a certain punishment, because it entirely depends on te context, the players history, and sometimes even the mod's mood :p

If you report a nation, leave it at that. Don't go threaten them, don't say they will get a certain punishment (because only a mod would know which punishment that player will get, and saying he will get said punishment could imply you are a mod. And definatly don't flame them back.

edit:

Speaking as if you have the authority of a moderator is an infraction that others have been deleted for, as the regular readers of the moderation forum know well.

Not that Kat needs any back up, but..yeah, seen it happen before.

I understand that you are upset, Communist Italy, but that is the way it is. This situation was discussed among six of us already, and your multiple reports happen to have been answered by different moderators.

Your nation's longtime membership as well as its own history were taken into account before the deletion was made.

It seems to me that you believe making multiple reports, appealing to the masses here in moderation and on your RMB, and mass petitions will somehow change the decision against you, but that's not the way it works.

You know that we do not install founders, especially when one has been deleted for rulebreaking.

Play your current nation. Have it join the UN. Since it seemed from your RMB that there are plans to start a new region, this should not interfere with that one bit.

Peace.

I understand that you are upset, Communist Italy, but that is the way it is. This situation was discussed among six of us already, and your multiple reports happen to have been answered by different moderators.

Your nation's longtime membership as well as its own history were taken into account before the deletion was made.

It seems to me that you believe making multiple reports, appealing to the masses here in moderation and on your RMB, and mass petitions will somehow change the decision against you, but that's not the way it works.

You know that we do not install founders, especially when one has been deleted for rulebreaking.

Play your current nation. Have it join the UN. Since it seemed from your RMB that there are plans to start a new region, this should not interfere with that one bit.

Peace.


Ugh... fine, whatever. Another load of BS, but at least you TRIED to be nice about it.... although I still continue to disagree with and dispute this claim I seem to be forced to accept it.

I belived that stating my case here, pubically, would assure me that EVERYONE, including every mod, could take note of exactally what happened. Unfortunatly I am but a lowly NS player. It seems like no matter what the community says/wants the mods rulings are final. I used to think this game was about the community, but i'm starting to see that its not...

And I know for a fact that you DO install new founders, as can be noted by the situation that occured in the region "Soviet Union".

Just note that my previously cooperative stance with moderators has taken a back seat to the lessons i've learned from this situation: don't expect to see anymore abuse reports from me.

It looks to me like you're grasping at straws with regards to the whole 'representation as a mod' thing, CI. Perhaps you should just accept it?

Not a moderator

CI, please calm down, its just a game.

Ugh... fine, whatever. Another load of BS, but at least you TRIED to be nice about it.... although I still continue to disagree with and dispute this claim I seem to be forced to accept it.
The moderators that have looked into the situation have agreed that this punishment was fair. It's probably best that you move on with NS, knowing your mistake and what you shouldn't do in the future, and have some fun here. If you're discussing making a new region, you won't have a problem with not having a Founder, and you all can continue spending a great time here.

I belived that stating my case here, pubically, would assure me that EVERYONE, including every mod, could take note of exactally what happened. Unfortunatly I am but a lowly NS player. It seems like no matter what the community says/wants the mods rulings are final. I used to think this game was about the community, but i'm starting to see that its not...
We took note in what happened, and we all agreed on it. We go by the rules, not what the community thinks, though their opinions are taken into account, if put forth respectfully. We have many ways of judging things on our own, along with past precedents, player history, etc, in which the community doesn't know anything about. This site certainly is not a democracy, as the moderators are here to maintain a private site (Max Barry's).

And I know for a fact that you DO install new founders, as can be noted by the situation that occured in the region "Soviet Union".
We install Founders on extreme cases, mostly if the region in question was griefed. Your case isn't one of those extreme cases.

Just note that my previously cooperative stance with moderators has taken a back seat to the lessons i've learned from this situation: don't expect to see anymore abuse reports from me.
That's your choice.

I guess my message wasn't clear: i'm dropping my active persual of my restoration.

I never said this was a democracy, but I did assume that the TOS was an actual set of rules, not an example of rules. From what I now understand its up to the mods to do basically whatever they want to maintain order, even if their actions do punish someone who has not in violation of the TOS. To quote Crazy Girl who posted here a day or so ago, the exact decision can even boil down to the mood of the mod who makes it.

We have many ways of judging things on our own, along with past precedents, player history, etc, in which the community doesn't know anything about.

I can only imagine, but I assume you guys track each person by IP, thus you take into account not only their actions, but the actions of their puppets and such. I kind of figured this, which is why I keep most of my activities either searious, or funny. Trust me, a VERY large part of the NS community is not based on NS, and if we were judged by our actions in not only NS, but our regional forums and instant messangers, SO many more people would be banned from this game, me included. Theres a reason I don't do much flaming on the RMBs or through telegrams: its all done on forums or instant messangers.

But i'm ranting now. My region is moving on and hopefully this deletion will allow me to finally retire from this game in peace, without having to return to keep my nation and region alive....

Still, I advise that this situation be taken into account when re-writing the TOS, if thats ever done, to prevent this from happening in the future. Make sure people know that stating things that are to happen in the future IS witchcraft, and will result in deletion..... at least, thats what I think happened...

I guess my message wasn't clear: i'm dropping my active persual of my restoration.

I never said this was a democracy, but I did assume that the TOS was an actual set of rules, not an example of rules. From what I now understand its up to the mods to do basically whatever they want to maintain order, even if their actions do punish someone who has not in violation of the TOS. To quote Crazy Girl who posted here a day or so ago, the exact decision can even boil down to the mood of the mod who makes it.
You were judged to be in violation of the TOS by multiple moderators. Despite the fact that you don't believe so, you did violate the TOS. End of story. We don't punish people for the fun of it. *shock and awe*

Apparently, you missed the smiley after Crazy Girl said that. Check again.



I can only imagine, but I assume you guys track each person by IP, thus you take into account not only their actions, but the actions of their puppets and such. I kind of figured this, which is why I keep most of my activities either searious, or funny. Trust me, a VERY large part of the NS community is not based on NS, and if we were judged by our actions in not only NS, but our regional forums and instant messangers, SO many more people would be banned from this game, me included. Theres a reason I don't do much flaming on the RMBs or through telegrams: its all done on forums or instant messangers.
You don't do much flaming? Correction: You shouldn't be flaming at all.

till, I advise that this situation be taken into account when re-writing the TOS, if thats ever done, to prevent this from happening in the future. Make sure people know that stating things that are to happen in the future IS witchcraft, and will result in deletion..... at least, thats what I think happened...
Our TOS is fine as it is. It's been the same for quite some time now, and I don't seen any reason to change it. It's all about the tone of voice used, in your case. Your tone of voice was one seen as very authoritative, which could be taken as you impersonating a moderator. We carried out the same punishment as anyone who has imitated a authority figure. You may continue to deny it, but you've been judged to be in violation of our rules. That's it.

Tone of voice? So if I just put a smiley at the end of everything (Like Crazy Girl did in her post) its ok?

" STFU J3RKFAC3 U GO D!3 N0\/\/!!!!1 LOL J/K ASL :) " <--------- so would that be considered a flame? How about without the "lol jk asl" part?

Sorry, i'm not actually telling you to stfu, just trying to clarify theese rules....

And i'll state this again: I don't see any proof that I was in voilation of the TOS, as i've read the TOS and wouldn't be wasting my time arguing this if I saw that I was in violation, but I have ACCEPTED THE FACT that I will NOT be restored, and am no longer attempting to do so.

You don't do much flaming? Correction: You shouldn't be flaming at all.

If flaming on isolated occasions is a deletable offence theres about 200 people I know of in my part of the NS community alone that need to be IP banned from this game....

WOAH! Wait a second here!

I found this on NSwiki about my deletion....

"The new soviet state - spamming RKKA-related messages in numerous communist and socialist regions "

Was this a factor in my deletion? Because if this incident was taken into account I'd like you to know that the regions where that message was posted all had the message "Member of the RKKA" in their world factbook and were infact RKKA members.

Tone of voice? So if I just put a smiley at the end of everything (Like Crazy Girl did in her post) its ok?

" STFU J3RKFAC3 U GO D!3 N0\/\/!!!!1 LOL J/K ASL :) " <--------- so would that be considered a flame? How about without the "lol jk asl" part?False analogy and red herring. Crazy Girl wasn't flaming, and her comments have no bearing on your breaking of the rules.

I have ACCEPTED THE FACT that I will NOT be restored, and am no longer attempting to do so.Your continued arguing belies this claim.

Edit: NSWiki is not an official organ of NationStates. Things written there do not necessarily represent the views of any NationStates official or official policy.

And the Hall of Ex-Nations is often dependent upon the "best guess" of non-moderators. It is NOT an official page of NationStates

NSwiki Founder

I know its unoffical, I was just wondering why that would be stated...

Unoffical or not, the real reason for deletions are usually listed there.

Anyway, The Most Glorious Hack, i'm not arguing for my restoral anymore. I'm arguing that what I was deleted for does not line up with the stated TOS. I'm asking that you clarify it, as to prevent from this happening in the future, as, according to what was said here, it looks like this isn't the first time this has happened.

....it has been explained.....more than once....and considering the amount of people on this site, it hasn't really happened all that often. And people usually understand after they've been explained...

I know its unoffical, I was just wondering why that would be stated...

Unoffical or not, the real reason for deletions are usually listed there.

Anyway, The Most Glorious Hack, i'm not arguing for my restoral anymore. I'm arguing that what I was deleted for does not line up with the stated TOS. I'm asking that you clarify it, as to prevent from this happening in the future, as, according to what was said here, it looks like this isn't the first time this has happened.

Not that I'm an expert on this site but I have to agree with you. It seems the mods misunderstood what you posted and took action without understanding your intentions. On sites I do moderate I at least get both sides and assume the best intentions of everyone.

I don't feel you ever intended to present yourself as a moderator. Are the mods here really that tough that they assume the worst?

Not that I'm an expert on this site but I have to agree with you. It seems the mods misunderstood what you posted and took action without understanding your intentions. On sites I do moderate I at least get both sides and assume the best intentions of everyone.

I don't feel you ever intended to present yourself as a moderator. Are the mods here really that tough that they assume the worst?You misunderstand. What I think the mods here rule on is effect and not intention of actions. If people can get offended by what you said because of a poor choice of wording, then it's your fault, not theirs.

You misunderstand. What I think the mods here rule on is effect and not intention of actions. If people can get offended by what you said because of a poor choice of wording, then it's your fault, not theirs.

But nobody was offended, nor did anyone think I was a mod!

Ok, final words, because apparently the same things keep getting repeated.

1. You TOLD the moderation team -- not asked, TOLD -- to delete all nations held by the player in question. Fact.

2. You then ANNOUNCED to your region that the nation in question was about to be deleted because of the nasty message left on your RMB. Fact.

3. You DID NOT get this information from a moderator, nor do you have access to the records we have of the nation in question. Fact. Therefore, you misrepresented what would happen while speaking as if you had the authority to know what action would be taken.

4. You have misrepresented things here. You say you'd been dealing with the deletion for "several days" when in fact it was just barely over ONE day. Fact.

5. You have your own past history, which you have alluded to yourself. Fact.

6. You justify yourself by saying, "Well, I was right, he DID get deleted." Irrelevant. The action which the player was deleted for happened for actions taken after the one you reported. To make an analogy, I could say that someone was going to die when I hear that they have a bad head cold; it doesn't make me right if a day later when she dies in a car accident I say, "You see!? I was right!"

This thread is now closed. If you wish to appeal, go ahead -- on the Getting Help Page.

If you wish to appeal, go ahead -- on the Getting Help Page.
Or not, since we've already done the first appeal and the final appeal. Stick a fork in it - it's done.