NationStates Jolt Archive

In Lew of what happened to Hogsweat, I was wondering if in addition to the One Stop Rules Shop, there should be something that shows how to go about doing things like Refounding a Nation where the Founder ceases to exsist. I'm sure Hogsweat felt he was in the right, when actually he was greifing.

sorta like a "how to thread" or something.

and is there a way to alter the warnings to point to the One Stop Rules Shop?

Comments? Suggestions?

Not sure about the former - perhaps a note pointing out that refounding by ejection by a non-founder is illegal (although this can be inferred from the link) - but I doubt the latter would happen just yet, as it's a coding change.

Not sure about the former - perhaps a note pointing out that refounding by ejection by a non-founder is illegal (although this can be inferred from the link) to speak the truth, I never understood greifing untill this Hogsweat incident. but I know it is possible for a Non-Founding nation to refound a Nation (Tinks did it) and to do it properly. but whether or not Hogsweat knew how to go about it is questionable. and, to be honest, I can see how many people will think that what Hogsweat did was right. even tho it wasn't.
- but I doubt the latter would happen just yet, as it's a coding change.yeah, but nothing wrong in asking... even if it can prevent (or postpone) another deat.

In theory? I suppose it's technically possible.

However, when nobody bothers to read the stickies, and people completely ignore hard-coded, glaring red warnings, you have to understand why we aren't exactly fired up here. Also, the OSRS is supposed to be a complilation of rules, not a "How To" guide for everything you might want to do.

In theory? I suppose it's technically possible.

However, when nobody bothers to read the stickies, and people completely ignore hard-coded, glaring red warnings, you have to understand why we aren't exactly fired up here. Also, the OSRS is supposed to be a complilation of rules, not a "How To" guide for everything you might want to do.true, but then at that point (for the ingnoring and not reading) you can say you did everything possible including informing them where to go.

as for the How to... can it be a seperate thread or resource?

true, but then at that point (for the ingnoring and not reading) you can say you did everything possible including informing them where to go.

as for the How to... can it be a seperate thread or resource?

Once more, there already are 'How To's regarding almost all aspects of Gameplay.

Once more, there already are 'How To's regarding almost all aspects of Gameplay.this is what I am talking about. you say there is a How To... but don't link it? it's not in the OSRS thread...

Please Gruenberg, where is the procedures then, on how to refound a Region when the founding Nation no longer exsists?

Where is the proper procedures on banning nations from a region and also the proper use of the Ban list?

The Gameplay Sticky (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=302256)

And no, I can't see a thread called 'How To Refound'. However, refounding is a concept that doesn't really exist in-game. It's still just moving to another region. As such, the rules on invasions apply.

The Gameplay Sticky (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=302256)

And no, I can't see a thread called 'How To Refound'. However, refounding is a concept that doesn't really exist in-game. It's still just moving to another region. As such, the rules on invasions apply.great, this helps (and some of it should be stickied with the OSRS since I dont go into Sound and Fury...)

(sorry, was typing up stuff and then I got an idea, can I beg the mod's time and patience while I try and set something up?)

Is there something that prevents people from using the Moderation or Gameplay or other appropriate forum to you know, ASK if they're not sure? I mean, it's not like anything ever gets answered here - or that there might have possibly ever been a question answered previously that might shed some light on any particular situation, neh?

No sticky or guide can possibly cover all scenarios. This is why they have forums for questions and addressing problems.

I don't see why 'it isn't in the sticky' is an excuse. There will -always- be something new pop up that hasn't been covered in perhaps just that way before. And as we've seen before in other threads, whether it is there or not, someone will invariably complain.

Don't know? Ask. Simple. Doesn't matter if it's been compiled in one spot or not.

I agree, Nathi, but I actually don't see any harm in a simple 'How To Refound' post being added to the Gameplay Sticky. As much as anything, it would give a frame of reference.

Didn't say there was harm in it, was arguing the Larger Picture there. Pardon if it wasn't more clear - I really ought to be laying down right now and sleeping off the meds. ;)

So write one.

So write one.


I don't think it's our job to interpret the words of the moderators, especially since the moderations have had a history of interpreting it differently each time.

Proposed HOW TO.

***

How to Refound a Region if the Region Founder no longer exsists.

Often times it may become necessary to "ReFound" or Recreate a Region when the Founding Nation no longer exsists. This may be necessary for the Founding Nation does have certain capabilities that Delegate Nations don't have.

One must be careful when Refounding a Region, for it appears so much like Griefing that mods can mistake the two unless proper procedures are taken.

The one thing that must be done is telegram (TG) all Nations within the region that a refounding will take place. since the refounding Region must be empty, they will need to vacate the premises. however as the delegate looses endorsements, the chance of someone else grabbing the delegation is a viable risk.

thus the following suggestion.
* Let all the Nations know. through TG as well as the runboard. here you can arrainge a time to do the refounding and give everyone who is a member of your region time to move their nations as well as know that a refounding is taking place. (can they also let the Mods know to? say a post in the mod forum or something)

* Password the Region so that no invader can enter and TG the Password to everyone... even the puppets.

* Have your Region members remove all puppets first. since they don't have UN status and thus no Endorsements, the delegate loses nothing. It also will help Identify those who haven't logged on for a while and thus everyone can help notify those people.

* at the agreed date, leave the nation (if you wish, you can gather at a new temp region) everyone except the delegate that is he should be the last to leave.

* any puppets that remain needs to be kicked off. (Query, when ejecting nations, is the placement random or can you place them in another region?)

* Wait 24 hours (How long does it take for a Region to be removed?)

* Recreate the Region and do whatever it takes to not get the founder deated.

***

I was thinking a thread with these types of procedures to allow for smoother transistions of such events.

granted I'm going by common sense and so the above may be wrong. any corrections will be welcome.

do you think a thread with things like this might help?

I am a bit amused by this I must admit. Refounding a region is something that pops up now and then in moderation. During september there were atleast one thread in moderation about it what I know. (I haven't paid to much attention to the NS forum the past 6 months but I am pretty sure there were one in september atleast).
And its not like its takes enormous intelligence to figure what would be illegal or not to do while refounding if you have atleast grasped what can happen if you are in error in ejecting a nation.

To put it bluntly, someone created region X and later on faded away. Only because a certain percentage off the active nations in the region says nation XX is a nice fellow and could refound region X doesn't mean that the inactive nations agree to it.

But then again, I don't know wich region its about, don't know anything about the scenario. But this is usually the storyline and it usually ends the same way.
Want a region? Create a new one. Keep your eyes on the old one and recreate it when it dies out.

So write one.I was... :p
me a slooow typer. :(

I don't think it's our job to interpret the words of the moderators, especially since the moderations have had a history of interpreting it differently each time.I feel that some player participation in such things also helps the players understand the rules.

Besides, the Mods have enough to do with Flamers/Trollers/and other miscreants. :D

I feel that some player participation in such things also helps the players understand the rules.

Besides, the Mods have enough to do with Flamers/Trollers/and other miscreants. :D


Unfortunately, since they're mods they have to do everything that their job entails, including writing the rules that they say they enforce. If they can't do it, then they shouldn't be moderators.

I'm sorry if this comes out as an insult. I've seen the moderators here to be very hardworking. But in my opinion, it's the truth.

I'm all for another guide giving more information about what I can and can't do as a delegate as I've been confused more then once as to exactly what I'm allowed to do in order to protect me region...

However, I don't understand why people really can't just ask because they do something major like kicking everyone out of their region... it takes just one post to say "Is it ok if I do this?" and give the big red warnings I've read when I kick invaders out of my region even I stop and ask myself if they are a native or not.

More information is always helpful, but at the end of the day there will always be cases which aren't covered by rules exactly... in this case it was making re-founding a region. As a delegate I've had people in my region look quite deeply into setting up a new founder to replace our long lost one, we asked and found out it was rare and hard to do. Thats all it took, we weren't sure so we asked and found out.

So by all means, more details can be of great use... but you really only need to ask if you aren't sure.

Proposed HOW TO.
One must be careful when Refounding a Region, for it appears so much like Griefing that mods can mistake the two unless proper procedures are taken.

Note: Depending on how it's done it actually can BE griefing, not just mistaken for it.


* any puppets that remain needs to be kicked off. (Query, when ejecting nations, is the placement random or can you place them in another region?)

And now it looks like you're recommending taking action that will get you deleted unless there are a very small number of such nations in which case you might be safe.

You can't just summarily eject all the nations that don't voluntarily move out of the region just because they didn't move out when you told them to. Warning provided or not. This was just covered in the other thread. It's their decision whether they move out or not.

As what I've gathered is that Hogsweat and Haven went to the mods originally to ask them to delete it, but the moderation apparently refused to do so for whatever reason. Wouldn't that have been a great time to tell Hogsweat that he couldn't do it himself?

As what I've gathered is that Hogsweat and Haven went to the mods originally to ask them to delete it, but the moderation apparently refused to do so for whatever reason. Wouldn't that have been a great time to tell Hogsweat that he couldn't do it himself?


don't start this argument again...

Unfortunately, since they're mods they have to do everything that their job entails, including writing the rules that they say they enforce.

Can't cover every single possibility in the rules, pretty much everyone knows what griefing is and it's been covered numberous times... the rule broken wasn't about making a new founder, it was griefing which is a well covered rule.

The fact is that we have rules and they have been rather fully been written. People know about the griefing rules and they were broken... admittedly they thought they were "re-founding" their region which hasn't been covered as well publically, but they should have relised it was griefing and at least asked if it was ok.

The moderators have quite thoughly covered the does and don't of being a delegate and a big don't was missed in their actions. The mods acted as they should have done (because it would be an outrage to all that came before if they didn't act in the same manner) and it's unfortunate that such a misunderstanding happened. It's not because of a lack of rules, but because the player didn't do enough to ask if what he was doing was allowed.

Note: Depending on how it's done it actually can BE griefing, not just mistaken for it.




And now it looks like you're recommending taking action that will get you deleted unless there are a very small number of such nations in which case you might be safe.

You can't just summarily eject all the nations that don't voluntarily move out of the region just because they didn't move out when you told them to. Warning provided or not. This was just covered in the other thread. It's their decision whether they move out or not.and this is why things like this is needed, as well as the most wanted but rarely seen feedback. :p

now, this cannot be true since delegates as well as the Founders can "kick out" nations. I believe the mods look closely when it's alot of nations being kicked out at one time.

The suggested procedure does recommend to allow time for players to remove puppets first. now if you expand that time for a month (perhaps i'll put it in the procedures), then any puppet still there has an active player. and thus they should be informed. If they still refuse... well then, what do you suggest?

don't start this argument again...

Unfortunately, this topic is directly revelent to what happened to Hogsweat, so the topic is going to remain.


Can't cover every single possibility in the rules, pretty much everyone knows what griefing is and it's been covered numberous times... the rule broken wasn't about making a new founder, it was griefing which is a well covered rule.

The fact is that we have rules and they have been rather fully been written. People know about the griefing rules and they were broken... admittedly they thought they were "re-founding" their region which hasn't been covered as well publically, but they should have relised it was griefing and at least asked if it was ok.

The moderators have quite thoughly covered the does and don't of being a delegate and a big don't was missed in their actions. The mods acted as they should have done (because it would be an outrage to all that came before if they didn't act in the same manner) and it's unfortunate that such a misunderstanding happened. It's not because of a lack of rules, but because the player didn't do enough to ask if what he was doing was allowed.


Well, as a player, I don't have the responsibility to check this board out everytime someone post, as much as the moderators have the job to well inform the people they moderate. I've also heard that moderators in this argument have specifically said the rules they followed were not written 'in stone', which I think is literally what they said.

And I think the player did do enough to ask - he contacted the modcave about what he wanted to do, and yet the moderators failed to cover all possible holes. That's not his fault, that's the fault of our moderators, who refuse to acknowledge it.

don't start this argument again...
Why not? If its been covered so many times, then I'm sure there's a good reason why the mods didn't tell him in advance even though they knew he was planning it?

Proposed HOW TO.

***

How to Refound a Region if the Region Founder no longer exsists.

Often times it may become necessary to "ReFound" or Recreate a Region when the Founding Nation no longer exsists. This may be necessary for the Founding Nation does have certain capabilities that Delegate Nations don't have.

One must be careful when Refounding a Region, for it appears so much like Griefing that mods can mistake the two unless proper procedures are taken.

The one thing that must be done is telegram (TG) all Nations within the region that a refounding will take place. since the refounding Region must be empty, they will need to vacate the premises. however as the delegate looses endorsements, the chance of someone else grabbing the delegation is a viable risk.

thus the following suggestion.
* Let all the Nations know. through TG as well as the runboard. here you can arrainge a time to do the refounding and give everyone who is a member of your region time to move their nations as well as know that a refounding is taking place. edit:I would suggest a Month to give people time to get the message as well as let any puppet die of non-use. (can they also let the Mods know to? say a post in the mod forum or something)

* Password the Region so that no invader can enter and TG the Password to everyone... even the puppets.

* Have your Region members remove all puppets first. since they don't have UN status and thus no Endorsements, the delegate loses nothing. It also will help Identify those who haven't logged on for a while and thus everyone can help notify those people.

* at the agreed date, leave the nation (if you wish, you can gather at a new temp region) everyone except the delegate that is, he should be the last to leave.

* any puppets that remain needs to be kicked off. (Query, when ejecting nations, is the placement random or can you place them in another region?)

* Wait 24 hours (How long does it take for a Region to be removed?)

* Recreate the Region and do whatever it takes to not get the founder deated.

***

I was thinking a thread with these types of procedures to allow for smoother transistions of such events.

granted I'm going by common sense and so the above may be wrong. any corrections will be welcome.

do you think a thread with things like this might help? made some changes to the proposed procedures.

Why not? If its been covered so many times, then I'm sure there's a good reason why the mods didn't tell him in advance even though they knew he was planning it?please drop it Sanct and Macabees. I want this thread to prevent another Hogsweat, not rehash what happened.

If you want to continue with Hogsweat's fate, please do so somewhere else.

Well, as a player, I don't have the responsibility to check this board out everytime someone post, as much as the moderators have the job to well inform the people they moderate. I've also heard that moderators in this argument have specifically said the rules they followed were not written 'in stone', which I think is literally what they said.

They have informed the people of the rules as far and when you start ejecting people they warn you that griefing isn't allowed... so you either pay heed to it and ask the moderators (or just check the forums out to see what you can do) or you ignore the warning at your peril.

The rules on griefing have been covered and if you follow them you will not be deleted for it, the moderators aren't changing these rules to delete people specifically, but they do judge each case by it's merits so their reactions aren't set in stone. In this case it was clear and it as been checked out by the game admins themselves.

The point is that there are warnings and as a player it's up to us as to whether we ignore them or not.

And I think the player did do enough to ask - he contacted the modcave about what he wanted to do, and yet the moderators failed to cover all possible holes. That's not his fault, that's the fault of our moderators, who refuse to acknowledge it.

I wouldn't know about that, but I would have to say that I don't think the moderators would have said anything or not said anything with the express perpose of getting him deleted.

In anycase, I've said my bit on that subject, sorry to stir away further from the point of this thread. Personally I feel that re-founding a region is a rather touchy subject in the first place because it requires 100% support from the region and would probably require full moderator co-operation each time in order to be done properly because the way we're talking about it here is griefing, there is no way around it. It's just griefing with permision of everyone in the region and if you have that permission why can't you just spend a week-month getting them to leave themselves?

and this is why things like this is needed, as well as the most wanted but rarely seen feedback. :p

now, this cannot be true since delegates as well as the Founders can "kick out" nations.

Founders can kick out unlimitted numbers of nations indiscriminately. Delegates can kick out a limitted number of nations, ideally for cause... which I don't think "They wouldn't get out of the region when I asked them to let me refound it" qualifies as. Hence the "unless it's a small number of nations" and "might be safe" qualifiers in my first comment.

I believe the mods look closely when it's alot of nations being kicked out at one time.

Almost certainly.

The suggested procedure does recommend to allow time for players to remove puppets first. now if you expand that time for a month (perhaps i'll put it in the procedures), then any puppet still there has an active player. and thus they should be informed. If they still refuse... well then, what do you suggest?

I would suggest you make your own different region or get real, real patient because this region probably isn't going anywhere for a while. But that's me...

please drop it Sanct and Macabees. I want this thread to prevent another Hogsweat, not rehash what happened.

If you want to continue with Hogsweat's fate, please do so somewhere else.

So, you want to solve the problem by ignoring it?


They have informed the people of the rules as far and when you start ejecting people they warn you that griefing isn't allowed... so you either pay heed to it and ask the moderators (or just check the forums out to see what you can do) or you ignore the warning at your peril.


Funny thing is, Hogsweat wasn't given a warning. Furthermore, it's a special case, since Haven doesn't have a founder, and for some reason, the mods refused to delete it themselves.


The rules on griefing have been covered and if you follow them you will not be deleted for it, the moderators aren't changing these rules to delete people specifically, but they do judge each case by it's merits so their reactions aren't set in stone. In this case it was clear and it as been checked out by the game admins themselves.


Apparently, as the mods themselves have said, there are certain rules not set in stone. And, moreover, this case wasn't judgded by its 'merits'. Perhaps the game admins based their decision on what the mods said, which could have or couldn't have been all there was to say.

when the game's up i'll telegram a friend who has assisted an a bunch of legal refoundings to look over this :)

when the game's up i'll telegram a friend who has assisted an a bunch of legal refoundings to look over this :)


Thank you for this revelent and insightful opinion. Remind me to give you a star for your effort. :rolleyes:

So, you want to solve the problem by ignoring it?no but by putting something up that will help prevent it. and bringing up past arguments that will do nothing else but hijack this thread as well as possibly getting it locked really, REALLY doesn't help anyone, not Hogsweat, not Sanct, Not you, Not me and definately not the next poor nation that does the same thing out of Ignorance.

no but by putting something up that will help prevent it. and bringing up past arguments that will do nothing else but hijack this thread as well as possibly getting it locked really, REALLY doesn't help anyone, not Hogsweat, not Sanct, Not you, Not me and definately not the next poor nation that does the same thing out of Ignorance.


Yes, but to define the rules for griefing and region reforming, you must look at past example, and by looking at past examples you must analyze them and question them - obviously, people are going to have opinions.

If the mods lock this thread, it will just be one more piece of evidence that they can't handle someone giving them a little heat, and that someone is doing it in a fully legal matter.

But, alas, because you requested it, I'll stop arguing.

So, you want to solve the problem by ignoring it?

It's his thread, dealing with rules on refounding in general. what happened to Hog is sorta..irrelevant in here.



Funny thing is, Hogsweat wasn't given a warning. Furthermore, it's a special case, since Haven doesn't have a founder, and for some reason, the mods refused to delete it themselves.

30 bright red warnings.
there's numerous founderless regions, nothing special here.
they have refused in the past, have done so now, and will probably refuse in the future, i'm guessing because it is impossible to poll all natives in such regions if they agree....they have better things to do.



Apparently, as the mods themselves have said, there are certain rules not set in stone. And, moreover, this case wasn't judgded by its 'merits'. Perhaps the game admins based their decision on what the mods said, which could have or couldn't have been all there was to say.
This rule is set in stone. A delegate can't kick out all natios from a region. I've seen it happen before. Same puishment in each case.

Maybe you should bother actually reading the posts of other people in that other thread.

Now...split please?

Thank you for this revelent and insightful opinion. Remind me to give you a star for your effort. :rolleyes:


thank you for running around in circles over a dead topic:rolleyes:

I believe you got owned by someone with the rather awesome name of "Crazy Girl". Quit it Mac, you can't compete. ;)

The applicable precedent is In re Mercia, in which Spoffin was denied his request to eject the one remaining nation in the region. I'm not going to link it because the vBulletin upgrade (which has made the skin uglier) means I no longer know how to trawl through 200 threads at a time, but it dates to early 2004 (IIRC).

As a fairly experienced Moderation reader, I'm willing to help if any RPers have any questions about Moderation precedents; just send me an e-mail or drop me a query on IRC. I can't say anything official, but I am willing to help; any Gameplayer would have known this to be a violation of the rules in about ten seconds, and the sticky really should have been more clear on that point. In fact, the OSRS doesn't really have much on Gameplay rules - the link provided is to the Garrison II thread, which I don't feel to be a particularly up-to-date thread on these matters.

Funny thing is, Hogsweat wasn't given a warning. Furthermore, it's a special case, since Haven doesn't have a founder, and for some reason, the mods refused to delete it themselves.

The red writing you get while kicking people out of the region (and don't say it doesn't exist, I'm a delegate who has kicked out alot of invaders in the past) is a warning and it more or less says that it's against the rules to kick a large number of people out of your region at once. That should raise alarm bells.

As for a special case? My region doesn't have a founder either, we asked moderation to allow us to set up a new one and we were told exactly how hard it is to actually do... we asked and they didn't do it for us either, the truth is that it needs 100% support from your region and it's hard to prove you have it.

So assuming he didn't have 100% support and hadn't informed the moderators and hadn't got the go-ahead then yeah, it's not a special case, it's griefing. Griefing is always deletable.

Apparently, as the mods themselves have said, there are certain rules not set in stone. And, moreover, this case wasn't judgded by its 'merits'. Perhaps the game admins based their decision on what the mods said, which could have or couldn't have been all there was to say.

The game admin will have looked at all relevent information and likely trusts his moderators. Had something happened in IRC then perhaps he didn't know, he probably couldn't check up on it, but then alot of the moderators who couldn't all be corrupt like you suggest could have looked into it. Reguardless he basic judgement of the case is clear cut... the moderators were right to act like they did and anything else outside of the forums is Hogsweat's word against theirs.

Personally, I don't think the guy has a leg to stand on, something this big should have taken time to organise properly to avoid the lable of griefing. We all know about it, it's been discussed enough and it's well covered. I like Hogsweat, I've had a few laughs with him and he's on my MSN (feel free to bitch at me there if you like fuzzy_wuzzy_fluffy_l3unny@hotmail.com) but the facts as I see them seem to support the fact that he misunderstood the rules and acted without precaution... something like kicking everyone out of your region is a heavy action, he should have known better.

can we please stop with the attacks on Macabee's points, he agreed to stop arguing what happened to Hogsweat and concentrate on preventing the next Hogsweat.

Goobergunchia, for refounding a Region, do you thing something should be in place to allow the delegate to Kick out puppets or people who don't want to leave? (granted in limited number.) especially if everyone else in the region agrees to a ReFounding?

Reposting incase anyone missed it.
Proposed HOW TO.

***

How to Refound a Region if the Region Founder no longer exsists.

Often times it may become necessary to "ReFound" or Recreate a Region when the Founding Nation no longer exsists. This may be necessary for the Founding Nation does have certain capabilities that Delegate Nations don't have.

One must be careful when Refounding a Region, for it appears so much like Griefing that mods can mistake the two unless proper procedures are taken.

The one thing that must be done is telegram (TG) all Nations within the region that a refounding will take place. since the refounding Region must be empty, they will need to vacate the premises. however as the delegate looses endorsements, the chance of someone else grabbing the delegation is a viable risk.

thus the following suggestion.
* Let all the Nations know. through TG as well as the runboard. here you can arrainge a time to do the refounding and give everyone who is a member of your region time to move their nations as well as know that a refounding is taking place. it is also suggested that all recipients of such TG's hold on to them incase of any questions from the mods. I would suggest letting at least a month between the announcement and the date of Re-founding. to allow the nations with defunct players to fade away. (can they also let the Mods know to? say a post in the mod forum or something)

* Password the Region so that no invader can enter and TG the Password to everyone... even the puppets.

* Have your Region members remove all puppets first. since they don't have UN status and thus no Endorsements, the delegate loses nothing. It also will help Identify those who haven't logged on for a while and thus everyone can help notify those people.

* any puppets/nation that remain needs to be kicked off and a telegram sent to explain what happened.

* at the agreed date, leave the nation (if you wish, you can gather at a new temp region) everyone except the delegate that is, he should be the last to leave.

* Wait 12-24 hours (How long does it take for a Region to be removed?)

* Recreate the Region and do whatever it takes to not get the founder deated.

***

I was thinking a thread with these types of procedures to allow for smoother transistions of such events.

granted I'm going by common sense and so the above may be wrong. any corrections will be welcome.

do you think a thread with things like this might help?

Reformentia, leaving the "Kicking out who's left" in there untill a solution can be thought up... maybe the Mods have a suggestion?

Edited: to switch around some procedures. addtions in RED

can we please stop with the attacks on Macabee's points, he agreed to stop arguing what happened to Hogsweat and concentrate on preventing the next Hogsweat.

I was typing the post before you guys quit arguing. But I agree that I should stop replying to his continued cries of injustice, it's not getting anywhere.

As I said before and continue to say now, I feel that it's not really feasible to re-found a region by forcably kicking everyone out of the region yourself. You need to have the support of everyone in the region in such a way that you are certain and can prove it. You will also need to fully inform the moderators of your intentions so that they will not interpret the action as griefing, because however you try and explain the fact after you have done it, you will not be able to escape that it is basically the same thing, only with permission. This is why they need to know before hand that you have everyones backing, perhaps through telegram, though that would be limited, so maybe the forum?

In anycase, if you managed to get everyone in the region to agree to this re-founding method and made a new region for it, would it not be more suitable to save time and have just asked them to change region in the first place? Instead of getting a reply from everyone saying it's ok, you can just get them to move to the new region at their own pace. You will have needed to wait for them to be all on at one point anyways, so why not just get it done then?

This is why I disagree with this method... it's not effiecent and it's just too dangerous. Without taking alot of effort to prove it, you are griefing. If the mods made it easier to prove then it would be easier to abuse for those who actually want to cause harm.

So perhaps the it would be better to create a new region, lock the current one and then ask people to move to the new one, when the old is empty you leave it to die, locked forever with no rules having been broken. If you incist on using the old region, you could ask for the moderators to make you founder, but that is a rare and hard process which requires the 100% support we mentioned earlier.

* any puppets that remain needs to be kicked off. (Query, when ejecting nations, is the placement random or can you place them in another region?)

Leaving aside the legality issue to just address the question... ejected nations go to the Rejected Realms. You cannot specify any other location.

Reformentia, leaving the "Kicking out who's left" in there untill a solution can be thought up... maybe the Mods have a suggestion?

I'm pretty sure their suggestion will be something along the lines of "If they dont want to leave the region your refounding plans are screwed" but I could be wrong.

I was typing the post before you guys quit arguing. But I agree that I should stop replying to his continued cries of injustice, it's not getting anywhere.I realized that, which is why I didn't name anyone specifically, (and you wern't the only one continuing the arguments.) Sorry if it sounded like I was focusing on you.

As I said before and continue to say now, I feel that it's not really feasible to re-found a region by forcably kicking everyone out of the region yourself. You need to have the support of everyone in the region in such a way that you are certain and can prove it. You will also need to fully inform the moderators of your intentions so that they will not interpret the action as griefing, because however you try and explain the fact after you have done it, you will not be able to escape that it is basically the same thing, only with permission. This is why they need to know before hand that you have everyones backing, perhaps through telegram, though that would be limited, so maybe the forum?while I admit that if there is desention within the region, Someone doesn't want the region refounded (why I'll never know since it offers better security than one without a founder.) then that is something to be handled within the region. I'm talking when it's puppets that either havent been removed due to non activity or the player hasn't gotten the word.

Oh and I am asking if its ok if they plan it with the mods, but need mod approval to see if it's ok.

In anycase, if you managed to get everyone in the region to agree to this re-founding method and made a new region for it, would it not be more suitable to save time and have just asked them to change region in the first place? Instead of getting a reply from everyone saying it's ok, you can just get them to move to the new region at their own pace. You will have needed to wait for them to be all on at one point anyways, so why not just get it done then? just like Hogsweat doesn't want to play another nation, some people like the region. it might be a really cool sounding region or (like the case of Paradise Beach) the founder was Deated and her new nation wanted to regain Founder control. we popped into another region, waited for her to refound, then went back. nice and smooth. but there has been some instances were people who were willing, were just kicked out. thus the griefing instance. having a set procedure (and everyone keeps their TG's to show that yes, they were indeed informed.) might help the mods differentiate between griefing and refounding.

This is why I disagree with this method... it's not effiecent and it's just too dangerous. Without taking alot of effort to prove it, you are griefing. If the mods made it easier to prove then it would be easier to abuse for those who actually want to cause harm.true, but as I said, I'm up for suggestions. having set procedures on HOW to do things is just as important as knowing WHAT isn't allowed.

So perhaps the it would be better to create a new region, lock the current one and then ask people to move to the new one, when the old is empty you leave it to die, locked forever with no rules having been broken. If you incist on using the old region, you could ask for the moderators to make you founder, but that is a rare and hard process which requires the 100% support we mentioned earlier.can the Mods make someone the founder without Founding a region? I thought that was not possible.

I have a couple questions/suggestions about your proposed guidelines.

* Password the Region so that no invaders can enter and TG the Password to everyone... even the puppets.
Assuming the delegate is internally elected, then they do not have to give the pw out to anyone. And not giving it out would lessen the chances of an invasion to zero.

* Any puppets that remain needs to be kicked off.
Actually, if at that point the people have already left, that would be even more a griefing than at the beginning. There was a case a little while ago, here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=446663), where Cog gave the ruling (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9722086&postcount=8) that they couldn't move natives back in to eject the inactive nations that were left. So if any kicking was to be done, it should really be done at the beginning when there are more people there. But then that kinda violates the spirit of that rule also.... :p

* Wait 24 hours It's either update, minor or major. So it should be about 12 hours at the most.

I wonder if your intent is to refound and at least 1 member objects (and objection can simply be ignoring the telegrams asking them to leave), then should a refounding be allowed to take place? I would think a refounding HAS to have ALL members of the region agree to it. If they are truly inactive, they'll die in a month or two and the refounding can occur smoothly. There shouldn't really be any need for ejections.

I think a big warning should be that this can take a long time. You can't decide one week that you want to refound your region and then just go.

Unfortunately, since they're mods they have to do everything that their job entails, including writing the rules that they say they enforce. If they can't do it, then they shouldn't be moderators.Including deleting your rule-breaking signature, or should I show that ever-evil bias by giving you a chance to do so yourself?


now, this cannot be true since delegates as well as the Founders can "kick out" nations. I believe the mods look closely when it's alot of nations being kicked out at one time.Yes, Delegates and Founders can kick out nations. However, since there are legitimate reasons for mass ejection (of, say, invaders), there can't be a hard-coded cap. Also, a region of 200 nations has a lot more leeway in ejections than a region of 5. Also, Founders can kick out whomever they want. Because of these limitations, we simply have the bright red warning when X nations are kicked out within Y time.

I have a couple questions/suggestions about your proposed guidelines.


Assuming the delegate is internally elected, then they do not have to give the pw out to anyone. And not giving it out would lessen the chances of an invasion to zero.true, but I believe it's good faith to let the members of the region know what the password is. tho if not giving the password isn't a rules violation, then that might also safeguard the region during the refounding phase.

Actually, if at that point the people have already left, that would be even more a griefing than at the beginning. There was a case a little while ago, here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=446663), where Cog gave the ruling (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9722086&postcount=8) that they couldn't move natives back in to eject the inactive nations that were left. So if any kicking was to be done, it should really be done at the beginning when there are more people there. But then that kinda violates the spirit of that rule also.... :pwhich is why I stated that the delegate should be the last one to leave.... as the delegate, he can kick out any unmanned puppets left.

It's either update, minor or major. So it should be about 12 hours at the most.oh... I put 24 cuz I didn't know the time frame.

I wonder if your intent is to refound and at least 1 member objects (and objection can simply be ignoring the telegrams asking them to leave), then should a refounding be allowed to take place? I would think a refounding HAS to have ALL members of the region agree to it. If they are truly inactive, they'll die in a month or two and the refounding can occur smoothly. There shouldn't really be any need for ejections.agreed, just trying to cover any contingencies. any disagreements needs to be resolved within that region before refounding can take place.

I think a big warning should be that this can take a long time. You can't decide one week that you want to refound your region and then just go.agreed, and to have it in the procedures will ensure that it's planned out and all region members must be in agreement.:)

can the Mods make someone the founder without Founding a region? I thought that was not possible.

Not sure, as I understand it when we asked to have a new founder put in place for reasons of security we were told that it's rare for them to do it and even then it requires 100% support of the region, which we sure as hell never could get (being a region full of Anarchists).

But there is nothing stopping everyone from leaving the region like I said before, doing it themselves, going to a temp region and then deleting and recreating the old one for purposes of making a new founder. I just figured you meant using another region to represent the old one...

I don't see why a delegate should have to kick everyone outhimself if he's just going to need their permission anyways... he could just let them move on their own accord as they will have to have been online at some point. It's just a matter of getting people to leave to the temp, delete the old, make it again and move back in. If everyone agrees like is suggested then it will work... if one person isn't playing for a month then their nation will eventually be deleted (you can't ask for it to be deleted as they could come back) from inactivity. Seeing as you can't act without all people (including inactive) responding, there is no reason why they can't all just move to the temp. If someone doesn't agree then you are basically fucked, it needs 100% or nothing as far as I know.

Setting a procedure would be understandable in a way, we could do with something dfinative... but I think it needs to be said exactly what options you have and what you can and can't do within the rules, if only to avoid misunderstandings.

Yes, Delegates and Founders can kick out nations. However, since there are legitimate reasons for mass ejection (of, say, invaders), there can't be a hard-coded cap. Also, a region of 200 nations has a lot more leeway in ejections than a region of 5. Also, Founders can kick out whomever they want. Because of these limitations, we simply have the bright red warning when X nations are kicked out within Y time.It was asked that if the mods were aware that a refounding was taking place, say Nation Blah wanted to refound Region Blah Blah, they can let the mods know (via forum) and that the official procedures were followed, yet some puppets still need to be kicked off, will it be allowed.

(reminder, need to add to procedures, any nation Kicked out for Refounding needs to have a TG sent informing them why they were kicked out.)

or is kicking out for refounding ixnayed on the ulesray.

which is why I stated that the delegate should be the last one to leave.... as the delegate, he can kick out any unmanned puppets left.
No... I don't think he can. At that point, the percentage of people getting kicked will be very, very high. And that's pretty much always been a bad thing. You're not allowed to kick (let's even use 20%) of your region as delegate. If there's only 2 inactive puppets, and it's them and the delegate left, kicking even 1 of them means he's kicking 33% of the region. If any kicking had to be done, it would be better earlier on when everyone was still there, and the percentages were lower. But like I said before, that violates the spirit of the rule. :p

I don't see why a delegate should have to kick everyone outhimself if he's just going to need their permission anyways... he could just let them move on their own accord as they will have to have been online at some point. It's just a matter of getting people to leave to the temp, delete the old, make it again and move back in. If everyone agrees like is suggested then it will work... if one person isn't playing for a month then their nation will eventually be deleted (you can't ask for it to be deleted as they could come back) from inactivity. Seeing as you can't act without all people (including inactive) responding, there is no reason why they can't all just move to the temp. If someone doesn't agree then you are basically fucked, it needs 100% or nothing as far as I know.we can make it that it MUST be 100% agreed upon... tho for puppets and such that will prove difficult. then there are those on Sabbatial or cannot log into their nations for a month so they put it on vacation mode and let it sit while they're away. I think those are more than 28 days.

Setting a procedure would be understandable in a way, we could do with something dfinative... but I think it needs to be said exactly what options you have and what you can and can't do within the rules, if only to avoid misunderstandings.which is why I want everyone's (or as much as possible) feedback. something like this will help greatly... and not just for refounding regions but for other areas of gameplay as well.

No... I don't think he can. At that point, the percentage of people getting kicked will be very, very high. And that's pretty much always been a bad thing. You're not allowed to kick (let's even use 20%) of your region as delegate. If there's only 2 inactive puppets, and it's them and the delegate left, kicking even 1 of them means he's kicking 33% of the region. If any kicking had to be done, it would be better earlier on when everyone was still there, and the percentages were lower. But like I said before, that violates the spirit of the rule. :pdidn't think of that. will re-arrainge it so that any puppets left should be removed before everyone else leaves.

we can make it that it MUST be 100% agreed upon... tho for puppets and such that will prove difficult. then there are those on Sabbatial or cannot log into their nations for a month so they put it on vacation mode and let it sit while they're away. I think those are more than 28 days.

As I understand it, thats unfortunate but rather tough on the people who want a founder... unless the moderator views change on the matter (I'm not a mod) it's all or nothing and puppets would also have to prove their agreement to the whole thing as well.

I suppose that you could simply kick them out the region several weeks before the change over as you are allowed (as far as I know) to kick one or two natives out so long as you telegram them and give them the password and what not. That way you could remove the inactive nations and then have everyone else move out... I imagine it's quasi-legal at best though.

As I understand it, thats unfortunate but rather tough on the people who want a founder... unless the moderator views change on the matter (I'm not a mod) it's all or nothing and puppets would also have to prove their agreement to the whole thing as well.

I suppose that you could simply kick them out the region several weeks before the change over as you are allowed (as far as I know) to kick one or two natives out so long as you telegram them and give them the password and what not. That way you could remove the inactive nations and then have everyone else move out... I imagine it's quasi-legal at best though.that's an idea. tging them the reasons.

FWIW, I don't see much wrong with the current rules on refounding. You can't assume that the controllers of inactive puppets would have given their consent.

FWIW, I don't see much wrong with the current rules on refounding. You can't assume that the controllers of inactive puppets would have given their consent. FWIW?

time for me to go bye bye... keep them suggestions as well as opinions coming... please.

FWIW, I don't see much wrong with the current rules on refounding. You can't assume that the controllers of inactive puppets would have given their consent.

*nods*

Like I've said above, there is nothing stopping you from getting everyone to leave of their own accord, empty the old region, remove it and replace it and then moving back. It's not easy but it's possible under the rules of the game.

Failing that you either make do with the current region or make a new one and take the active people with you. There are too many people on holiday or dealing with real life to assume they are ok with whatever you are doing. How about those who just jump right to the forums? I've done it more then enough and I've missed alot of action in my region because I'm a RPer... it's tough but thats the way it works. I admit that people willfully ignoring their TGs can be a problem, but there isn't much at the moment to help there.

FWIW?For What It's Worth.

Hack, or any mod who still read this thread...

While I know you can Deat nations, can you do the same for Regions?

since the OSRS has been updated with recommendations on refounding, if you mods think that this is now unnecessary, please feel free to lock.

Hack, or any mod who still read this thread...

While I know you can Deat nations, can you do the same for Regions?
Well... we can delete every nation in the region, password it, and let update kill it.

Or, we can "rename" the region, which essentially moves all members to a new region, tranfers the WFE and the Regional Message Board, and let the update kill the region.

Okay, this is the only thread about this guy Hogsweat still open. Then, could someone explain to me who he is and what has he done??

I mean, every place I look for there is another thing about this guy. Everybody have his name in their sigs.

Well, of course I made a research. Some say about invasion and he didn't unbanned the natives, others say abut RP and I am confused.

If someone could be able to explain to me (if possible the two sides - for and against the deletion), I would thanks.

Okay, this is the only thread about this guy Hogsweat still open. Then, could someone explain to me who he is and what has he done??

I mean, every place I look for there is another thing about this guy. Everybody have his name in their sigs.

Well, of course I made a research. Some say about invasion and he didn't unbanned the natives, others say abut RP and I am confused.

If someone could be able to explain to me (if possible the two sides - for and against the deletion), I would thanks.

Read the "Official" thread for it in Moderation.

Read the "Official" thread for it in Moderation.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=449790

Free Iuthia had a funny E-Mail addy.....haha

Free Iuthia had a funny E-Mail addy.....haha

That really wasn't needed in this thread. At all. I'm locking this.