NationStates Jolt Archive

I just received a warning for ejecting a native without giving them the password.

It was my understanding that as an Internally-Elected Delegate, I have the right to do this. I currently hold the endorsement of Ksig, who is a native, and has been residing in the region at least six months continuously. No other nation holds any native endorsements. This is supposed to entitle me to the privileges of an Internally Elected Delegate, I thought, which includes passwording the region without giving it out.

Am I misunderstanding the rules? If so, I will immediately telegram the password to the nation in question. If not, then I respectfully request that the warning given my nation be removed.

Thank you
TM

The nation actually given the warning is TropicalMontana (no space)

You are not a native, and you don't hold the majority endorsements of natives.

<--- Not a mod

I DO hold the majority of native endorsements.

Via Aurelia Vetus and Ksig are the only natives there. I hold Ksig's endorsement.

I DO hold the majority of native endorsements.

Via Aurelia Vetus and Ksig are the only natives there. I hold Ksig's endorsement.

You have one native endorsement, and one non-native endorsement. Am I missig something?

Carinthe']You have one native endorsement, and one non-native endorsement. Am I missig something?


Yes. An Internally Elected Delegate is one who could hold the position without invader endorsements, only on the merits of their native endorsements. Since Ksig is the only native who can give endorsements, and he has given it to me and no one else, he has made me an internally elected delegate.

<<It's possible for a "native" to be an "Invader Delegate" if someone else in the region has more native endorsements. It's possible for a "non-native" to be an "Internally-Elected Delegate" if that nation has more native endorsements than anyone else.>> straight from Cogitation.

...the question becomes, is an Internally Elected Delegate allowed to password a region without giving it out? An invader delegate is not. I understood that an internally elected one could. Just making sure I understand correctly.

...the question becomes, is an Internally Elected Delegate allowed to password a region without giving it out? An invader delegate is not. I understood that an internally elected one could. Just making sure I understand correctly.This is generally correct. However, there seems to be some question as to whether or not you are an Internally-Elected Delegate. The confusion is compounded by the fact that you tried to grief the region, a month ago, and will take time to sort out.

The matter is under investigation. Until then, assume that you are bound by the invasion rules.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

Thank you for looking into this. It has been rather complicated.

This whole issue could have been avoided if we would have left one of our active members behind. Roughly half of our members are the ORIGINAL natives of the region. No one knows who Ksig is or how long he has been there, but at least since before the merge. Evangaurt and South Tropical Montana were natives of the old region before the merge.

We feel that WE ARE the natives of this region. The nations that are logging on once every 30 or 60 days are the ones causing the rest of us grief. Over 40 unique players are waiting.

If we did not feel so strongly that this is our homeland, I would not be risking this nation. I have been working with the mods as best i can, and most are probably tired of this.

Please rule that my group waiting at the temporary region of A More Peacefulworld are the rightful natives of this region.

From what I can gather, it would appear two regions merged into one. After teh merger a new Delegate was elected from the new region and this Delegate has ejected a number of nations. The problem here is that the game rules donnot cover regional mergers and instead regard the incomming nations as invaders for all intents anbd purposes. This means you donot have the rights of a normal Delegate.

Rotovia, out...
Not-A-Mod
Ex-Delegate
Ex-Founder
Still sexy ;)

Before the merge, these nations all lived in the region in question:

Acarob
Ateelatay
Cerebrista
Evangaurt*
Horupolis
Luetitia
RedBaron1
Umma Gumma
Sunbird Chain
Dasigloo
Jambudvipan Envoy VIII
PresidentGeneral Krull
Soroviev
South Tropical Montana (one of mine)

It is on behalf of those nations that I attempt to reclaim our native region, bringing with us the other nations from the merge with SMS and some newcomers. We feel that we are the rightful natives of the region, and that the nations which haven't left are those who are leaving their nation inactive for the full 30 or 60 days. They were never an active part of the group.

The only remaining nations that may be considered natives are Ksig and Sivari. I am willing to bet that Sivari's player is a native elsewhere. If Ksig is ruled a non-native, then who are the natives?

My claim is that it is US.

But how can you differentiate between invaders and 'so-called' defenders?

I was serving as Foreign Affairs Officer in SMS during the alliance talks between SMS and AMPW. We operated as two autonomous regions until AMPW came under attack from the ‘Lone Wolf’ invaders. After the attack was thwarted. The members of SMS and AMPW decided to merge and create a new region with a founder and none of the security breeches of the old one, to create a bigger active community. Our intentions were to move all of the native members to the new region and let then password protect the two former regions and let them fall into history.

Once again though AMPW came under attack and those natives who were there got ejected. A few members organized a counter offensive and reclaimed the region. We then continued the process of closing down the region. Most people moved to the new region a few of the invaders died off and most new arrival also migrated to the new region. The non-actives were ejected. That’s when the mods accused us of being malicious the first time. Then there are the nations that don’t log in for 30 days (or sixty if they are on vacation) and then log on at the very last minute before dying? How is that not malicious activity? If you are going to try and delete anyone trying to defend their own region then why don't you do the same with invaders who start this whole stupid process?

Hi, I am here to support Tropical Montana's claim. Until I moved to the new region during the region merger, I was the oldest member of A More Peaceful World, with the possible exception of Acarob. What Tropical Montana and The Pine Squirrels have said is true, after we left, with the hopes of closing the region, the invaders returned and stopped the region form dying. A counter revolution was launched from our new region and the invaders were defeated and ejected. Tropical Montana (TM) was a native before the invasion, and only left A More Peaceful World for a few days before returning to reclaim the delegacy and eject the invaders.

Ateelatay ^ was the Delegate of AMPW until the merger. He had offered to stay behind until the region was empty. This would have been ideal, had he actually done so (oh how I wish...*sigh...). None of us realized that the moment we left we would lose native status in the original AMPW. We are completely inexperienced at invasion, as it goes against our region's charter.

I understand it is difficult to define a Native exactly, and I am not asking you, the Mods, to do that. It just seems to me that by ANY definition of native we would qualify. If it's continuous residence, then Ksig qualifies, and legitimizes the Delegacy. If loyalty and commitment to the region count, then Evangaurt qualifies and his endorsement legitimizes it. If overall length of residency a and commitment to the region count, then Ateelatay qualifies (If you deem that its necessary, Im sure he would move back and he could endorse me--whatever you deem necessary for a legitimate Delegate).

It comes down to who you rule are the Natives IN THIS CASE. At this point I personally would be happy if we could just password it and leave.

I apologize for the huge amount of time this must be taking to investigate, and for my inability to have handled this better from the start. I understand it will take some time to sort through such a complicated mess, and I will try to wait patiently for your answer.

Hi, I'm here for the same reason as Ateelatay was: to say that TM is indeed telling the truth. I am also a native of AMPW, though I haven't been around quite as long as he (Ateelatay) has.

Now, I won't pretend I know exactly everything about this, but I'm a little confused as to the griefing warning. What is the exact reason for the warning? Would you mind elaborating on that for me? I'm sorry for needing to ask that. But anyway, South TM, herself, is a native of the old region, and she was there before me (and I was there for a considerably long time), and the same with Evangaurt.

It is true that AMPW and SMS merged into one region (with a founder) - there were several active members left behind at this time (along with a few in vacation mode) because they did not want to move (rather, this is an assumption, because none of them voiced anything about this. But anway, they were active and knew about the merge, and were free to move - they just chose not to. That isn't the issue here) and we had no particular reason to force them to do so. One of the people who remained is ksig (who I have a vague recollection of), who is now endorsing TM, so even if people who moved out were no longer considered natives (which is a bit strange as, say, aren't Native Americans still Native Americans if they moved place? I'm sorry, that's the part that confuses me, so sorry for the perhaps unnecessary comparison), then ksig would be, right?

The other guy, however, I really don't know. I won't pretend to have known everyone in AMPW, but the name 'Sivari' draws a definite blank. However, the fact that he logged in after being 29 days inactive - just 1 day away from deletion - seems slightly suspicious to us, rather than just coincidence.

As it is, Ateelatay volunteered to stay behind to see the merge through, but he couldn't stay there forever, and it seemed obvious that some people did not wish to move -so he left.

Then came the invaders, and that's when the whole problem started.

Folks, thanks for the testimonials, but that's not what we need. We're looking at hard evidence that is acceptable in game terms - the XMLs of the region(s) in question. We have those in hand, and will be reviewing them sometime soon. In the meantime, no need for more of these posts.
It is true that AMPW and SMS merged into one region .The concept of "merged regions" is not supported by the game engine, and therefore isn't really part of our reasoning. We've given TM some latitude in this because we're aware of the griefing history in those regions, but we can't / won't discard the griefing rules, even if everyone in the region is fine with it (for a variety of reasons, not least of which is stacking the deck with puppet nations).

Refounding is HARD. It MUST be done voluntarily by ALL nations in the region. If it were made easy, anyone with the Delegacy could simply make a hard-to-verify claim of regional approval, and grief to their heart's content. Sorry if that sometimes gets in the way of probable legitimate requests, but it's what we've got.

A final decision will come along sometime soon. Patience, please.

I understand that the amount of information you have to go through to solve this dilemma is massive. I will wait patiently for it to be sorted out.

I just have one request while you are looking through the data. Could you please determine whether Sivari is truly a native of the region or whether he has a UN nation somewhere else and is therefore NOT a true native of AMPW.

Thank you.

I understand that the amount of information you have to go through to solve this dilemma is massive. I will wait patiently for it to be sorted out.

I just have one request while you are looking through the data. Could you please determine whether Sivari is truly a native of the region or whether he has a UN nation somewhere else and is therefore NOT a true native of AMPW.

Thank you.

That wouldn't be fair. You can't ask the mods to help you clean out the region. I am sure you will eject that nation, after determining that nation's status.

Could you please determine whether Sivari is truly a native of the region or whether he has a UN nation somewhere else and is therefore NOT a true native of AMPW.
That's irrelevant.

While any single player may have only a single UN nation, he can have as many other nations as he wants, each a 'native' of its chosen region. I've personally got at least half a dozen puppets that have resided in their 'native' regions for over a year each. No matter how you count nativity, they're natives.

That's irrelevant.

While any single player may have only a single UN nation, he can have as many other nations as he wants, each a 'native' of its chosen region. I've personally got at least half a dozen puppets that have resided in their 'native' regions for over a year each. No matter how you count nativity, they're natives.

With all due respect, I think there is more involved in nativity, such as INTENT. Spies are not considered natives.


First, I will try to define "native" and "non-native".

A "native" is a nation that resides in the region long-term, where the owner of that nation considers that region to be home. (I'm not sure what the judgement is for players with many puppets and who keep several puppets in several places long-term. Carinthe and Crazy Girl: I'm looking at you, here. ) If a native nation grants a UN endorsement to any nation, then the endorsement, itself, is called a "native endorsement".

A "non-native" is the catch-all designation for any nations that aren't natives. The "native" and "non-native" sets are all-inclusive and mutually-exclusive; a nation must be one or the other, not both, and not neither. Spies residing in a region long-term and working for an outside force are not natives.

That seems to mean it IS relevant if the player that controls Sivari is using the puppet for acting against the region's best interest and no other reason.

Im sorry to challenge you on this Fris, and I'll back down if you say so, but I really think there's a valid point here. If Sivari is a spy operating on behalf of another nation/region against the best interest of our region, then he wouldn't be entitled to native protections.