NationStates Jolt Archive

I am trying to close out a region that lost its founder. I have been a member of this region for several months, and have arranged for all active members to move to a new region. However, there are about ten nations left in the old region, almost all of which are inactive, and apparently some are on vacation because they have been inactive 32 days.

I received a warning because i had ejected a few nations while leaving a password in place. I understand now that i cannot do this.

I have since removed the password.

My questions are these:

Am i allowed to eject ANY nations? One per day? Inactive nations? Vacation nations?--if i take them off the ban list and don't put a password on the region?

I really don't want to get into trouble on this, so i am asking where the line is drawn so i dont cross it unintentionally.

I would appreciate any information that might help me in this matter.

thanks.

TM

Thank you.

I have already informed all the nations, both in telegram and on the main board about trying to close the region. Obviously, the inactive ones are unaware of this.

Is that 10% a day? or 10% total?

Thank you.

I have already informed all the nations, both in telegram and on the main board about trying to close the region. Obviously, the inactive ones are unaware of this.

Is that 10% a day? or 10% total?

I'd suggest waiting another moderator for this one. My knowledge of this is very limited.

~The Modified Freedom Forces of Euroslavia
Nationstates Forum Moderator~

will do.

thanks for your help and your attentive replies.

As has been explained several times on your regional messageboard, refoundings MUST be done voluntarily.

Given that you have been residing in another region for some time now, you are effectively considered an Invader delegate, so you're VERY limited with regard to your ability to eject natives. If you kick one per day, or one per week, it's still considered a slow griefing. With only ten nations left, kicking even one is edging on griefing for an invader.

Now I understand your situation, and understand that you are a former native with the best of intentions. That is irrelevant at this point. Only the Founder has the right to eject ALL remaining inactives, which is of course your problem. You cannot speed up this process. There are no shortcuts to refounding. The remaining nations will have to be persuaded to leave, and that's all there is to it.

[Strikeout this section:] If you want to put up an obnoxious password and NOT share it with the natives (but also not kick any of them), that may be permissible. We'll discuss that and post here. That way, at least you won't get new members. In the meantime, either make peace with the idea that this may take several months, or find yourself another region. Those are pretty much your only options at this point.

I recieved ONE telegram about the refounding, and nothing on the main board. but that's beside the point.

i do NOT want to refound the region, but simply have it cease. I suppose that's besides the point too.

If i set a password and leave, will the password remain? or does it reset back to no password when i leave?

Will the password remain in effect even if i lose Delegate status?

thank you for your time and your attention to my questions. I dont' mean to be a pain but really want to understand all this.

If a delegate or founder sets the password and leaves, the password remains in place until someone else gains the delegacy. If they want to reactivate the region, at least two of them will have to join the UN and become active themselves.

If you are not classified as native, you always have to pass out the password to every nation in the region, or at least to all the natives. That leaves the region always open for natives to invite other nations.

that seems to defeat the purpose of a password, but okay.

Fris said:
If you want to put up an obnoxious password and NOT share it with the natives (but also not kick any of them), that may be permissible. We'll discuss that and post here. That way, at least you won't get new members. In the meantime, either make peace with the idea that this may take several months, or find yourself another region. Those are pretty much your only options at this point.

Huh? I've been an "invader" delegate pretty often since I'm a raider and have always understood that I, as a raider delegate, had to TM the pw to all natives immediately upon activating or changing it. Has this rule changed?

Huh? I've been an "invader" delegate pretty often since I'm a raider and have always understood that I, as a raider delegate, had to TM the pw to all natives immediately upon activating or changing it. Has this rule changed?
The rule has not changed. I was wrong. The password MUST be shared.

Apologies for the confusion.

Thanks for the update.

And dang but that was quick!

What about non natives that arrive.

can i kick them out?

The invasion rules are more than a little confusing, but essentially, yeah. You can kick them unless they're returning natives. Defining nativity on a region that has been as disrupted as that one is kinda difficult, though, so better safe than sorry.

Since the only way they would have been able to get in the region would be via an invitation from a native, I'm kinda curious why you're so adamant about causing this region to be dissolved. You're not the founder, so it's not your region to dissolve. The fact that other former natives are still moving in surely indicates that there is not unanimity in the desire to empty the region. If I were you (and this is in a non-modly capacity), I'd question whether the pain is worth the end result.

I might be able to help out on this one since I have some experience being the "invader" delegate.

My understanding is that you can only kick out a "small" percentage of the natives. I'm 99% sure this is a "small" percentage TOTAL not per day or month or whatever. As for what constitutes "small", I think the Mods keep this intentional vague so that they can have some flexibility in any given situation. In your case where there are only 10 nations in the region, I'd guess booting any more than one nation would be dangerous.

---Uhh, nvermind Fris is like lightning today.

There are no natives still trying to get back in. Only when the region had been invaded by the Lone Wolves did we try to go back.

They had changed the factbook entry, taunting us. The membership was upset that someone was defacing the old region. We want it closed so that it won't be defaced by malicious invaders anymore.

I volunteered to stay there until it is closed out because i am one of the main leaders of the moved region, and its Founder. But i do not want to risk my nations over it.

a new nation has arrived in the region that i am completely unfamiliar with. He has not resided in the region, or if he has, it hasn't been since April, or i would recognize him.

He is not a native.

I have posted on the main board, and sent him a telegram notifying him of his need to move on. I will give him a chance to move by waiting for him to log in once more and receive the messages.

If he remains, i intend to eject him.

thought i would let you guys know, just to cover my rear.

thanks, and i apologize for taking up so much of your time with this.

Non-natives may be ejected at will.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

It seems that this nation has arrived perhaps with a wish to make things difficult for me.

He has logged on, has not moved his nation, and i tried to send another telegram reading:

I have sent you a previous telegram asking that you move on, we are not accepting new members in this region.

You are welcome to join the former members of this region in the new location (A More PeacefulWorld). You may move to any other region you wish.

But your nation may not remain here.

Please choose a new region now to avoid an unexpected layover in the RR.

thank you
TM

...and it bounced back. Apparently i have been blocked. I am ejecting this nation now.

i hope you don't mind that i am keeping in close touch with you folks on this project. i just figure better safe than sorry.

I am trying to notify you of my moves in advance, so that if there is anything troublesome, i can be told before i do it.

i guess i got a little scared by that telegram i got when i first ejected a couple of nations and didnt give them the password... :)

timidly,
TM

* gets out the heavy rattan sticks for the evening beatings *

Just remember: As an Invader Delegate, you cannot eject-and-ban natives. Any password must be given to all natives without them prompting you for it. Non-natives may be ejected at will. Non-natives are not entitled to the password under NationStates rules.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

* gets out the heavy rattan sticks for the evening beatings *


eep! *trembles*


uhh...i think i understand it all now.

Just one more question.--How long do i have to stay here before i'm considered a native and not an invader delegate?

Do native delegates have any more leeway with ejecting other natives?

oops, that was two questions. *looks over shoulder for Frisbeeteria*

from what i know..

Just one more question.--How long do i have to stay here before i'm considered a native and not an invader delegate?


There is no timeframe for that

Do native delegates have any more leeway with ejecting other natives?


Yes. They are allowed to kick out more natives than invader delegates (although still definatly not all, and not too much. Unoffical guidelines say 40%, but I'd stay well under that just to be safe). They are also allowed to ban natives, and don't need to share the password with anyone.

from what i know..

There is no timeframe for that



hmm. "no timeframe" ....

does that mean never, or that no time frame has been specified and it is left to judgement in individual cases?

All this is sticky business. It all depends on intent and various other reasons. If the average person would see you as a native, you've been there longer than anywhere else you've been, and would consider seeing youself there for the indeterminate future... then you are a native. I know that is really vague, but that is what I've interperted the rules to be. Mods left the definition vague to prevent rules lawyers.

Again, I may be able to provide some help from being the "invader" delegate pretty often in a career of raiding.

It is my understanding that you will be the "invader" delegate until you have enough endos from current natives to hold the delegacy by that total alone. So you may want to try to get endos from nations that were there before you took over as they will most likely be considered "natives". When you have enough support from them to hold the delegacy against any other person with "native" endorsements (probably just one native endo in this case), you will probably be considered a "native delegate". This means you can eject a larger percentage of natives, but still not all of them. As for what "larger" means, I think 40% is a guideline, but only a guideline. And this still means just 40% TOTAL, not per day or per week or per month or anything like that. Also, any "native" you eject must be removed from the banlist immediately and given passwords to the region. So they can move back in.

As for timelines to become a native, I'm pretty sure the Mods have done this before, but I seem to remember it takes a LONG time. I don't think that sort of switch in status just from elapsing time happens very often though. I know raiders have held regions like The Galactic Core for two months and doubt they would be considered to have switched to native delegate status. I'd bet others are right and intent plays into it, but it's still my guess any switch period would be fairly long.

As for nations moving in after you took the delegacy you can eject them at will and leave them on the ban list. You do not have to play nice with them as they are all "invaders". Of course griefing them or sending nasty messages might have repurcussions, but you can eject them and leave them on the banlist and not tell them the password.

Hope it helps.

If you have more native endorsements than any other person in the region, you are NOT a 'Native Delegate' unless you are a native. You are still an invader, but are called an 'internally elected delegate.'

Just an FYI.

If you have more native endorsements than any other person in the region, you are NOT a 'Native Delegate' unless you are a native. You are still an invader, but are called an 'internally elected delegate.'

Just an FYI.


so how does an internally elected delegate differ from an invader delegate or a native delegate when it comes to the ability to eject natives?

This is indeed quite the complicated tale..

An internally elected Delegate is a Delegate who holds the most native endorsements of all UN members in the region. The Delegate himself doesn't need to be native.

Native Delegate is what used to to be used to name the internally elected Delegate, until Coggy made the new term internally elected Delegate.

So an internally elected Delegate can eject and ban natives (make sure not to eject too many, keep 40% as an unofficial guideline, but best is to stay well under that. In case of doubt, ask a mod).

An internally elected Delegate can also password a region without having to give out the password to anyone.

As was said by Parvani, it is a very sticky subject. To get a rough idea of the rules for invasions, click to the Invasion Topic (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=301703) on jolt, or read the link in my sig (invader manual) which is essentially that topic compressed into a slightly humorous package.

I dont think 40% sounds crickett though, maybe a bit high, but things are determined on a case by case basis. For example, a region of 10, you'd be able to kick 4. A pacific... 2578 for the largest at present (TNP).

I think that an internal delegate must still distribute a password, as well as unban natives, but I think the difference is in the numbers of kickee's permitted. As said though by Parvani, a topic in mod (like you did) is a good way to check.

No, an internally elected Delegate doesn't have to give out the password, only invader delegates must.

Also, you mention 40% yourself in your invasion page, while it's no official number, same with the 10% for invading Delegates. I always mention it as an unofficial guideline, but also advise people to stay away from it when possible, and otherwise ask a mod about it

Another edit...skimming through your page...there's a few more mistakes on it...

I have returned to inform everyone that A More PeacefulWorld has decided to keep the former region of A More Peaceful World (founderless) as a 'feeder region' where probationers will be required to live until they qualify for entrance into the main region.

With a founderless region, it shouldn't take long to figure out if anyone is up to trouble, and it can be reinforced and protected by the main region should any of the n00bs act up.

We will no longer be seeking to close the region out.

As soon as the final bill passes the regional vote, the factbook entry will be changed to reflect that fact.

Thank you for your assistance all the way along this process. Everyone's help was useful and appreciated. We have decided to take another, more pragmatic path.

I managed to get a native endorsement to become an internally elected delegate. Ksig is a native. He was in the region before we moved, did not move with the rest of the nations, and has been in the region for many months. I hope you can verify that, so you don't have to take my word for it.

It was my understanding that as an internally elected delegate, i could eject a nation.

I have had TropicalMontana deleted.

WHAT HAPPENED, please?

Just for Reference, I am backing TM here, KSing is a native, and there is NO bloody reason to delete her nation. SHe has followed every bloody rule down to the period.

As was said by Parvani, it is a very sticky subject. To get a rough idea of the rules for invasions, click to the Invasion Topic (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=301703) on jolt, or read the link in my sig (invader manual) which is essentially that topic compressed into a slightly humorous package.

I dont think 40% sounds crickett though, maybe a bit high, but things are determined on a case by case basis. For example, a region of 10, you'd be able to kick 4. A pacific... 2578 for the largest at present (TNP).

I think that an internal delegate must still distribute a password, as well as unban natives, but I think the difference is in the numbers of kickee's permitted. As said though by Parvani, a topic in mod (like you did) is a good way to check.


I followed the link to Cogitation's definitions of Invader Delegate and Internally Elected Delegate. I gained the endorsement of one native (Ksig), making me the only nation to hold any native endorsements, and thus became an internally elected delegate.

Pirates Roost Again, I may be able to provide some help from being the "invader" delegate pretty often in a career of raiding.

It is my understanding that you will be the "invader" delegate until you have enough endos from current natives to hold the delegacy by that total alone. So you may want to try to get endos from nations that were there before you took over as they will most likely be considered "natives". When you have enough support from them to hold the delegacy against any other person with "native" endorsements (probably just one native endo in this case), you will probably be considered a "native(sic) delegate". This means you can eject a larger percentage of natives, but still not all of them. As for what "larger" means, I think 40% is a guideline, but only a guideline. And this still means just 40% TOTAL, not per day or per week or per month or anything like that. Also, any "native" you eject must be removed from the banlist immediately and given passwords to the region. So they can move back in.


Work with me here, please.

My guess TM, would be that you kicked one too many natives.

However, a mod will probably tell you what occured if you ask nicely.

I have had TropicalMontana deleted.

WHAT HAPPENED, please?


i thought that was pretty nice. wasn't it?

The two events (closing the region and being deleted) were not connected.

I would suggest NOT getting around a telegram ignore by using another nation again, as that can be considered harassment -- especially since you knew full well you were being ignored and stated so in your telegram.

Just for Reference, I am backing TM here, KSing is a native, and there is NO bloody reason to delete her nation. SHe has followed every bloody rule down to the period.

I'm afraid you're not in possession of all the facts.

Thank you, Katganistan.

I was not aware of that rule. In my own defense, it was cowardly of that nation to send me a telegram calling me names and then blocking me. That should be against the rules too.

But anyway. thank you.

I am indebted once again.

Thank you, Katganistan.

I was not aware of that rule. In my own defense, it was cowardly of that nation to send me a telegram calling me names and then blocking me. That should be against the rules too.

But anyway. thank you.

I am indebted once again.

S/he's been warned.