NationStates Jolt Archive

The Steel Butterfly seems to think his declaring war on the world thread was so good that it deserved posting twice, II, and NS. Its stereotyping IIers, and I for one take offence to it. He just posted it in order to get angry responses, and it serves no merit other than to annoy IIers. Could a mod please look into this and take the appropriate action?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9214621 - NS
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=430692&page=1&pp=15 - II

Eh...I expected this...

Defense coming soon

You beat me to it Nightfox, in spite of my asking Steel Butterfly not to go there with the whole NS vs. II debate.

Steel, I take great offense to your stereotyping.

You may be my buddy Steel, but this comment upsets me.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9214662&postcount=12

To be perfectly honest, out side of the vulgarity it is actually quite comical.

Flaming, spam, and trolling all in one? Wow, where do I start? *roll eyes*

He just posted it in order to get angry responses

First of all if you read the threads you can easily come to the conclusion that this statement is completely wrong. The thread was a parody on all sorts of things. AMF's thread about n00b hating, n00bs themselves, newsmedia, and yes, the International Incidents forum. I was looking for happy responses, people laughing, etc., as some of them were. I am in no means, however, so arrogant as to imagine that everyone would adore my posts. I'm completely open to upset, or angry responses as well. If that was all that I wanted, why would I take all that time and not just say something like "n00bs suck" or "II sucks." Those take far less energy and brainpower.

The Steel Butterfly seems to think his declaring war on the world thread was so good that it deserved posting twice

The Steel Butterfly? Am I an item now? Anyhow, as I said previously, I was interested in responses. I wanted to see the different responses in the different forums. In fact, I was surprised that they weren't more lopsided. Both thread's responses were pretty even good/bad. Would it have been better if I just posted it once and then threw a link in on the II forums? No. I didn't want anyone to miss it, because a good number of people stick to their own forum.

Its stereotyping IIers, and I for one take offence to it.

I take offence to all sorts of things. I take offence to all the anti-american threads in General. I take offence to whoever it was in my II thread making fun of me for working may way though college. Do I whine about it and try to get everyone else to conform to my standards? No.

As for stereotyping IIers, if you are one of the ones that I "stereotyped" that I'm not apologizing. That's just bad RP/writing...and I hope that such examples aren't as widespread as my parody portrays them. I also made a point to say that there are good RPers in II, but that they are often overlooked because of the mess of bad ones in the forum. In my parody, in fact, I was making fun of the fact they were overlooked by only including a small paragraph about them and only one example: AMF.

it serves no merit other than to annoy IIers

Then why did a group of them laugh at it and join in on the fun? That's its purpose: fun. Sure all parody is rooted in truth and carries some sort of message, but with all the threads regarding n00bs and n00b-haters, this is a more lighthearted way to look at it.

Could a mod please look into this and take the appropriate action?

The appropriate action is to either laugh or not find it funny. If you don't find it amusing, either say so, which I accept, or don't post. There's no reason to whine to the mods because you got your feelings hurt. Make a parody of NSers. Don't tell me the sterotypes aren't out there. I could list a handful right now.

You beat me to it Nightfox, in spite of my asking Steel Butterfly not to go there with the whole NS vs. II debate.

Steel, I take great offense to your stereotyping.

Did I try to start a great debate? No. It was a joke thread.

Oh, and I'm sorry if I didn't listen to you, I'm sure you'll understand...

You may be my buddy Steel, but this comment upsets me.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9214662&postcount=12

Yeah...I guess that was kinda childish. Still, I was responding to his stereotype with a stereotype of my own. I couldn't tell you if he thinks all NSers are elitists, but I don't think all IIers are morons. You're a prime example and there are others.

To be perfectly honest, out side of the vulgarity it is actually quite comical.

Thank you first of all...

But to be perfectly honest, the word vagina isn't all that vulgar. It's said in school, on the news, etc. I refrained for using more...slang terms because I didn't want to have to put an "R" rating on the thread.

heh...and you guys think I'm flaming...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9214811&postcount=16

Vagina is slang. Next time use female reproductive organ. And it adds more text which increases the length of your oh-my-God stories.

Take your bashing elsewhere. Let the mods sort it out, I'm sure this goes beyond a simple satire, especially when you look at his replies. Oh and I'm doing the same as you, except I target you instead of a group.

Vagina is slang. Next time use female reproductive organ. And it adds more text which increases the length of your oh-my-God stories.

Take your bashing elsewhere. Let the mods sort it out, I'm sure this goes beyond a simple satire, especially when you look at his replies. Oh and I'm doing the same as you, except I target you instead of a group.

Nope. You flame, I don't.

...and vagina is not slang...its the actual medical word used...

Nope. You flame, I don't.

...and vagina is not slang...its the actual medical word used...Who cares if its the correct medical word? So tell me where did I flame you? Parody is still the best form of humour. And you shouldn't have made the impression all II players are morons. I think making a totally absurd parody of your "satire" is a bit more innocent than the blunt lack of respect you have shown to II directed to many people you don't even know.

Who cares if its the correct medical word? So tell me where did I flame you? Parody is still the best form of humour. And you shouldn't have made the impression all II players are morons. I think making a totally absurd parody of your "satire" is a bit more innocent than the blunt lack of respect you have shown to II directed to many people you don't even know.

Because outside of "My Name is Steel Butterfly" you just rant on about things that you could not possibly know one way or the other. My parody is pretty damn close to reality...and well...your's is as you said, totally absurd. As for lack of respect to people I don't know, I'm glad to see that from your post you know me so well.

Yeah...I guess that was kinda childish. Still, I was responding to his stereotype with a stereotype of my own. I couldn't tell you if he thinks all NSers are elitists, but I don't think all IIers are morons. You're a prime example and there are others.
No, I don't think all NSers are elitists, I've met some very nice NSers, DFD, Gael, Euro, the list goes on. However I think that threads like yours are what give the stereotype of the NS RPers.
-Nightfox-

eh...waiting for a mod I guess

Because outside of "My Name is Steel Butterfly" you just rant on about things that you could not possibly know one way or the other. My parody is pretty damn close to reality...and well...your's is as you said, totally absurd. As for lack of respect to people I don't know, I'm glad to see that from your post you know me so well.Guess what? I don't want to know you, but God help me, I know you well enough to be certain about your arrogance and sense of superiority over II players. Your parody is close to reality in several cases. That's true, but since you have written it in a way that can only be explained the whole of II is like that. Read some of my work you'll probably label as pulp, or Praetonia, Automagfreek or any other good writer who frequents II. It's untrue, and I at least admit my parody is totally absurd. That's the meaning of parody: an absurd exaggeration of a situation or a group of persons/objects whatever.

This request will get addressed in detail once a moderator has time to sit down and analyze it in detail (and that's not me, not right now). In the meantime, KNOCK OFF THS BICKERING. That means from ALL sides. RIGHT NOW.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
Forum and Game Rules (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023)

This request will get addressed in detail once a moderator has time to sit down and analyze it in detail (and that's not me, not right now). In the meantime, KNOCK OFF THS BICKERING. That means from ALL sides. RIGHT NOW.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
Forum and Game Rules (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023)

/salute

I must state that, in my opinion, this parody is unjustified, rude, and offensive. Sure, there are the people you described on II, but there are many quality RPs that you can find by many talented writers. There might be quite a lot of junk RP, but there is certainly enough good stuff. Just because there are people who consider realism or technology more important than NS rpers doesnt mean anything, other than they are a bit more interesting.

Though to be truthful I don't think this does need some sort of official moderator action, I am extremely disappointed in this mockery of International Incidents, and the exclusion that it blatantly displays. I myself, though I don't - as said before - see why moderator action should be necessary at all, it would be a responsible action if Steel Butterfly accepts the fact that it /is/ an unfair stereotype, and adjusts it accordingly so that it longer displays the same message against IIers.

it would be a responsible action if Steel Butterfly accepts the fact that it /is/ an unfair stereotype, and adjusts it accordingly so that it longer displays the same message against IIers.

This is not bickering

Omz, it is MEANT to be a stereotype. It would not be funny (hell...or accurate) if it was adjusted.

Omz, it is MEANT to be a stereotype. It would not be funny (hell...or accurate) if it was adjusted.
No and I'll agree, but at the same time, the perseverance of the stereotype in its original state would mean that many people would still take such depiction offensively, thus generating more controversy for many while generating laughters for others. It's a dilemma definately; but I think that the responsible choice would be adjusting it so that a majority of the II population would not be offended as a result of such mockery, despite at the cost of humour and amusement (which, quite frankly, is not as quite important).

No and I'll agree, but at the same time, the perseverance of the stereotype in its original state would mean that many people would still take such depiction offensively, thus generating more controversy for many while generating laughters for others. It's a dilemma definately; but I think that the responsible choice would be adjusting it so that a majority of the II population would not be offended as a result of such mockery, despite at the cost of humour and amusement (which, quite frankly, is not as quite important).

I see what you're saying, Omz, but as I'm maintained for over two years now, no where does it say that I have to be happy-go-lucky, or even nice, on these forums, as long as I stay within the rules. Everything you ever do could potentially offend someone. While the PC world says that the answer is to not offend anyone, this cannot be done.

I'm not changing the post because I believe that I've not done anything wrong. My attitude, arrogance, elitism, or whatever else does not sway the concept of right and wrong one way or the other, and it shouldn't have anything to do with the mod's decision.

The post is on trial here, not the poster...at least I hope.

No one is taking this one? I hope that means there is nothing wrong with what I did.

It could still be under discussion.

It could still be under discussion.

Undoubtedly...just hopeful thinking on my part and surprise that I haven't been praised or slapped yet.

Having read the matter at hand and consulted with other Moderators, I am able to render the following judgement;

Guffingford - official warning for flaming; specifically post number 16 of the thread in NS. I shouldn't have to state it, but this sort of thing is absolutely unacceptable.

Steel Butterfly - official warning for trolling. This goes beyond satire and into malice.

~ Tsar the Mod.

Steel Butterfly - official warning for trolling. This goes beyond satire and into malice.

May I get some sort of explanation on this, please? Exactly which points were over the top? On which groups did it hit home a little too hard? Has my explanation been taken into account? Which points did you disregard and/or disagree with?

I want to fully understand what I did wrong here. I understand the concept of trolling, and why I could be accused of such a thing, however, if this is trolling, then nearly all of General is full of trolls. Is it alright to make fun of living and breathing people such as politicians and their government plans but not a forum, something as inanimate as they come?

The problem here is that a forum is not "something as inanimate as they come" - it has posters in it, and you are not insulting the forum but the culture that has developed on that forum, and by extension the people who take part in it.

You label people "tech-whores" and say they "are often pale from spending too much time poking at their calculator, and were losers in high school". Or "reality nazi’s, nations and leaders who write stories so real, that they have absolutely no value to them and are not interesting in the least." You label International Incidents "the unshaved and disease-ridden vagina of NationStates".

Can you understand that people take offence at these things? If someone were to similarly label American citizens and refer to the United States as "the unshaved and disease-ridden vagina of the Earth", that would clearly be trolling. So is this.

I hope that the above adequately explains my reasoning for you; if you disagree you are of course perfectly entitled to request a review.

Sincerely,

~ Tsar the Mod.

*cheers Tsaraine on* its about time a mod said some thing about that disgusting thread

Can you understand that people take offence at these things? If someone were to similarly label American citizens and refer to the United States as "the unshaved and disease-ridden vagina of the Earth", that would clearly be trolling. So is this.

I hope that the above adequately explains my reasoning for you; if you disagree you are of course perfectly entitled to request a review.

Sincerely,

~ Tsar the Mod.

My point is that they do. The General Forums is ridden with such filth and nothing is done. It appears that putting George Bush in the same catagory as Hitler is not trolling, and yet me laughing at a forum is. It was a parody, not something intended to just piss people off. It was meant to get laughs and get others involved in making fun of whomever and for the most part it did. The fact that I chose n00bs or the II forums is just one of many different things that I could have chosen. The sad thing is that a few people who took themselves too damn seriously to even crack a smile at their "style" decided that instead of having the least bit of maturity, or even just try the same type of thing in response, they'd just report it and "get back at that arrogant SB."

Right above this post is one from someone (TFU) who celebrates me getting an official mod warning and insults my thread, something I spent time and energy on. Now, should I take the high road and just be content with being above them, or should I point out how both celebrating another player getting a mod action is illegal, and how insulting my thread insults me as a writer?

"Damascus-" in his post a few posts back, thought he was witty and reversed my statement in his last line. He claimed that "tech-whores" or "realizm nazi's" are "more interesting" than my style of writing, and above that, he wasn't writing a parody, he was stating a blatant opinion. Should I be offended by his opinion on what is or isn't good RP? Should I bring in droves of others who claim to be offended by his ripping on the NS forum?

You, Tsaraine, and whatever other mods helped with this decision, have started down a dangerous path, preaching politically correct gospel and injecting it into NationStates, a message board that is controversial by default due to the fact that it is about politics. You chose to strike down a joke thread because it hits certain people a little too close to home and therefore may offend them.

From now on, should we not teach n00bs how to play, just in case our instructions go against how they want to play the game? Perhaps we should not report spammers either, for deleting their threads may upset them. Why, lets allow smilie wars and all other sorts of "fun" activities. We wouldn't want to insult anyone by taking them away, would we?

I hate to be the thorn in the modsquad's side here, because I've always understood the difficult job the lot of you have, but while you went above and beyond your duties as a mod by explaning your reasoning to me, and I thank you for it, I cannot agree with your decision. I understand that people can take offense to what I say, but everything you, or anyone else, says could potentially offend someone. You giving me a mod warning could offend me in some way, should you be punished?

I don't think so...and yes, I do request a review. I invite any mod to read over the entirety of this thread and the two in question, and try to form their decision from there, taking into accout my replies and explanations in regards to the original post and those who flamed me following it. You will find that I was jovial, civil, and more than forthcoming about my motives and opinions throughout the entire process. I thank you all for your time.

-Steel Butterfly

*cheers Tsaraine on* its about time a mod said some thing about that disgusting thread

You, sir, as I have stated, are flaming my thread, and therefore me, in the moderation forum, as well as celebrating another player recieving a mod warning, which is grounds for a warning yourself. I would suggest you cease this type of posting, especially here of all places.

I must state that, in my opinion, this parody is unjustified, rude, and offensive. Sure, there are the people you described on II, but there are many quality RPs that you can find by many talented writers. There might be quite a lot of junk RP, but there is certainly enough good stuff. Just because there are people who consider realism or technology more important than NS rpers doesnt mean anything, other than they are a bit more interesting.

Once again, as I have stated, how is your last line of this post any better than my parody itself. Both target and rip on a certain group of NSers. Granted I think neither are wrong, but if I get slapped for it....

Cool down SB, getting a warning isn't the end of everything. Anyway, calling a forum with actual people on it a disease ridden unshaven vagina of a greater being ie the whole forums is quite offensive to many players. There are some things you cannot say here, just accept it. I accept the warning on my reputed flaming. In my opinion it isn't, but according to the mods it is and I respect that. If you are as jovial and so on you shouldn't have written such grave insults in the first place. Calling people morons isn't civil.

I am not gonna ask for another review, unless people say I should.

I would also, Tsaraine, like to add the following as proof that this was intended as a joke, not a flowery troll post:

OOC: HAHA! God, Steel, that's hilarious.

THen again, it's true....

Classic, hilarious, and slightly odd.

Ah that has to be the best line to describe the state of II. This si why I opperate on both NS and II.
Anyways SB you are one funny bastard. Please do something like this again soon.

In all out seriousness this thread made my day.

So let me get this straight..SB makes a witty and accurate thread about what is WRONG with International Incidents and a bunch of n00blits come on and 'OMFGLOL i am so not lik taht ur a n0b SB i wil pwn u haha lawyer 4' etc flame him. You're only proving him right and butchering my beloved language! DOES THIS NOT OCCUR TO YOU? [/rawr]

Yes I am guilty of spending a majority of my time in International I, but still, SB has alot of good points.

I agree that it might be a little distasteful in its presentation, and a tad harsh, but guess what, it's SATIRE. If you don't like it, grow a skin. If you are feeling affected by what Steel is saying, it's probably true. You probably are a realism wanker, or a one googleplex army owner, or a OMG I BLAST WORLD player, and ya know what, changing might be a good thing. People are probably saying this behind your back anyways in TGs or in chat channels (I should know!) and you just don't hear it.

Pretty funny

Still, that was very, very funny. A nice thing to see when I log on.

Though it was a hilarious post.

OOC: That was absolutely great. Funniest thing I've seen on here in a long time.

*Assington salutes you...*

Lil bit nasty, but rather well written and funny,

Most of what you find in this thread is people complaining about it, I figured I should show some people who loved it, or at least got a good laugh from it.

Cool down SB, getting a warning isn't the end of everything.

...

In the meantime, KNOCK OFF THS BICKERING. RIGHT NOW.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
Forum and Game Rules (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bickering

To engage in a petty, bad-tempered quarrel; squabble. See Synonyms at argue.
To flicker; quiver: “and bicker like a flame” (Robert Browning).

I don't want to argue with you, I'm simply saying that a warning isn't the end of the world and the warning is justified irregardless of the people who find it funny. Other people didn't find it funny at all. It's not a one way street: people find it funny so it is funny. The others can get the hell out.

I don't want to argue with you, I'm simply saying that a warning isn't the end of the world and the warning is justified irregardless of the people who find it funny. Other people didn't find it funny at all. It's not a one way street: people find it funny so it is funny. The others can get the hell out.

No, a warning is not the end of the world, but what you chose to do with your's whether fight it or accept it, is your business and your's alone. Same with me. Your opinion regarding if it is justified or not is irrelavent. I'll leave that for the mod reviewing Tsar's decision to decide.

Aye, just don't be too surprised if the warning stands after a review done by another mod.

Good luck.

Aye, just don't be too surprised if the warning stands after a review done by another mod.

Good luck.

Thanks for the wish of luck, and yes, I know mods nearly always stick together.

Sometimes it takes more guts to go against the majority though...and how's the cliche go? Yeah...and do what's right.

In my NS life I've only seen a mod being overruled once, and that only because [violet] was contacted directly. The rest of the time, the mods decision is final and dare I say it, I live with it. If I get deleted that's the end of the NationStates II story I follow. The rivalry between II and NS began the day it was created and frankly, and I know this empowers your argument, II does suck. Only a few good players still wander around, only because the NS forum doesn't cut it. It's mostly future tech, fantasy or very deep story writing - or that's how we look at it. Personal experience tells me there's a lot more, but why waste time explaining it. Luckily I'm not the first halfwit around so I started making my own NS forum nation some months ago and it's doing fine.

If I remember how many attemps I have done to make it better, all the guides written by players (including me) to make it better. What a waste of time. Hell, even AMF tried to do something about by reviving the WMNK alliance... Not really the thing you'd like to see as a new clueless player. But I'm drifting off-topic...

Bear in mind this is coming from a Generalite:

I loved Steel's post. It spot on pointed out many of the reasons I don't RP. It was funny and well written satire - exactly the type of discourse I'd want on NS. If it ruffles your feathers, come up with a defense of your actions. It's not like I ask for every thread that disagrees with me on General to be locked.

Thanks for the wish of luck, and yes, I know mods nearly always stick together.

Sometimes it takes more guts to go against the majority though...and how's the cliche go? Yeah...and do what's right.
Well, not in this case. Four of us signed off that the original thread was trolling, or at best borderline. Your continued antics in the thread gave us full justification for the warning. If Tsaraine wants to respond further, he's welcome to reopen this for discussion, but for now it's closed.

Your appeal to popularity is denied.
Your appeal against mod bias is denied.
Your comparisons to other posters were considered and denied.

The ruling stands.

Steel Butterfly emailed admin (and Max Barry!) to appeal this decision.

I have reviewed it, and agree with the mod decision. SB's post could have been valid satire, but, as Tsaraine said, instead it strayed into malicious personal attacks, which deserve a warning.

In fact, Tsaraine's earlier post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9219438) in this thread provides an extremely clear and informative analysis, and I would encourage anyone confused about this ruling to re-read it.

']Steel Butterfly emailed admin (and Max Barry!) to appeal this decision.

I have reviewed it, and agree with the mod decision. SB's post could have been valid satire, but, as Tsarine said, instead it strayed into malicious personal attacks, which deserve a warning.

In fact, Tsarine's earlier post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9219438) in this thread provides an extremely clear and informative analysis, and I would encourage anyone confused about this ruling to re-read it.
"Tsaraine," boss.

"Tsaraine," boss.
That's what I said!

(And all evidence to the contrary will be expunged.)