NationStates Jolt Archive

Recently there was an incident wherein a moderator failed to follow correct protocol. Because we believe in an open and accountable system of moderation, this incident is being reported here.

What Happened: A Help Request was filed alleging that the nation Myrth had engaged in spamming in the Pacific. Myrth, who is a Game Moderator, responded to this complaint via telegram, and closed the Request in our moderation system.

Why This Was Wrong: Myrth's error was not that he dimissed the complaint (for any moderator would probably have acted similarly), but that he dealt with it at all. Moderators must keep their in-game nations and moderation duties separate, and as such he should have simply left the help Request for another mod to deal with. This mod could then have made an independent and disinterested decision.

It is important that players have confidence in our system of moderation. You should all know that we have a correct protocol in place to prevent abuse of moderator power, and be able to trust that this protocol is followed. For this reason, I believe significant breaches of protocol, such as this one, should be made public.

Myrth is a very good and hard-working Game Moderator (witness the most recent Mod Olympics), and over the past several months he has made literally thousands of moderation decisions. It is a great shame to have to isolate a single bad one like this, and I only do so because I feel so strongly that it is necessary to uphold the integrity of our entire moderation system.

I stand by my actions.

Just out of curiousity, once this breach was discovered, did another moderator reopen the complaint to look over it?

Been here a year (well, almost) and have seen one of these...

You folks are better then the Post Office. :)

I refuse to believe that mods can make mistakes. They are, after all, cron jobs

Just out of curiousity, once this breach was discovered, did another moderator reopen the complaint to look over it?
Yes, of course. The issue isn't that we think Myrth made an incorrect judgement, but that he should have stepped back and left it to another mod to make.

As one of the administrators of this site, and thus responsible for the moderation processes: I too wish to apologize for the breach in protocol.

It is my responsibility to ensure that correct protocols are followed so that the moderators earn the trust of the players, hold the trust of the players, and deserve the trust of the players. This situation should never have occured, and the fact that it did on my watch speaks poorly of me.

I apologize to the players and officials of NationStates and will strive to never permit it to happen again.

"It is not enough that justice be done, justice must be seen being done."

As a member new to these boards, but far, far from new to the world, I am glad to see you have taken this old proverb to heart (or its spirit, if you have never heard it before).

The openness of this admission of error, and the way you have taken the lesson to heart, encourages me. I feel the moderators here are willing to admit to being "mere human beings," and will be willing to reverse or alter decisions they have made.

I'm very impressed and heartened. :)

Quick question, I'm assuming no action was taken?

Everyone makes mistakes. Glad to see that the MODs have tried to correct theirs. Hope it was nothing too big and that it could be fixed. Sometimes we all tend to forget to step back once in awhile once we get in too deep to realize that we are getting too personal. Not that I know what really happened, nor do I need to know.

I understand that Myrth dealt with it, but was there still proof when he did? Normally there will be no issue, when there is no proof. No warnings and no measures taken, as usual. I don't see why a moderator should get other treatment as a normal player, if no proof of the spam is found.
I understand that he admitted the spam, but still.......

I believe this was a case where he bumped once to many :P

The issue was not in his posts or his "spam" (which wasn't really) but in how he handled the report of the spam and how he handled moderator protocols.

You moderators are very honest and the least corrupt.

Quick question, I'm assuming no action was taken?

I'd still appreciate an answer.

Quick question, I'm assuming no action was taken?

Actions have been taken and discussion/evaluation is ongoing.

Actions have been taken and discussion/evaluation is ongoing.
Wil we be informed of the outcome?

Most of the outcome will likely be in the form of internal moderation protocols and standards specifically to prevent any future problems

I must say I am impressed. I'm glad to know there is a system of checks and balances. It makes me have even more respect for this place. :)

Now ... can we give Myrth spankies? ;)

I'm assuming no action was taken?This bothers me. First, the assumption, and second, the follow-through requests for more details.

I don't see morbid curiousity as sufficient reason to want to know the outcome. In other cases that we moderate, there are sometimes public problems with public solutions; and other times the problem and solution are private. The fact that this has been made public by [violet] is a sign of the standard by which moderators must abide.

As for the rest of it, frankly ... what business is it of yours? For that matter, what business is it of mine? I wasn't party to the original complaint, nor to any interaction between Admin and the accused, and I haven't been approached by any of the involved parties, whomever they might be. It's not my affair, and I'm in no position to judge what the Admins think is an appropriate punishment / limitation / follow-thorough. However, I do trust [violet] and Salusa to do what's best in the case, and what's best for the site.

Moderators are held to a higher standard, and our mistakes are rightfully publicized. That doesn't mean that offenders must be put in stocks in the public square while villagers pelt them with rocks and rotten food. There has been a public judgement. I see no need for the flogging to be public as well.

This bothers me. First, the assumption, and second, the follow-through requests for more details.

I don't see morbid curiousity as sufficient reason to want to know the outcome. In other cases that we moderate, there are sometimes public problems with public solutions; and other times the problem and solution are private. The fact that this has been made public by [violet] is a sign of the standard by which moderators must abide.

As for the rest of it, frankly ... what business is it of yours? For that matter, what business is it of mine? I wasn't party to the original complaint, nor to any interaction between Admin and the accused, and I haven't been approached by any of the involved parties, whomever they might be. It's not my affair, and I'm in no position to judge what the Admins think is an appropriate punishment / limitation / follow-thorough. However, I do trust [violet] and Salusa to do what's best in the case, and what's best for the site.

Moderators are held to a higher standard, and our mistakes are rightfully publicized. That doesn't mean that offenders must be put in stocks in the public square while villagers pelt them with rocks and rotten food. There has been a public judgement. I see no need for the flogging to be public as well.
I see...

I don't think we want any moderator to be publicly humiliated because of a small mistake they made. We are just interested in what will happen in a friendly way. We are simply requesting it. The decision is of course in your(mod and amin) hands. We would just like to know.

Fris, most would probably like to know because this is not the first time Myrth's actions have been called into question in terms of his in-game bias.

I sincerely appreciate the Admin coming forward in this manner and will try to remain as factual and unemotional as possible about something I and many others have sincerely fretted over for the last few months.

I however do not believe Myrth's apology to be sincere, considering the three telegrams he sent to the nation involved in the report, one including what he inferred to be the name of the actual individual behind the nation...how would that make you feel, if you filed a report and a moderator wrote you telling you to "get a life," using your real name, then basically in a subsequent telegram implies that he will never be dismissed because he sits at his computer and performs so many mod actions a day, making him invaluable despite how he treats the players? If he was truly sorry he would have apologized from the start, instead of sending three different messages up to a day or two after his actions had been reported to the other moderation staff.

The original report was filed asking about the appropriateness of a certain post made in the Pacific, where Myrth is heavily involved in gameplay. It also pointed out the bumping spam that Myrth and Unlimited (via his puppet 1nept) were committing. The transcript of this post and bumping can be seen here:

http://s2.invisionfree.com/nasicournia/index.php?showtopic=1533

It was recorded by numerous witnesses, as there was a complaint filed against Myrth concerning this before (don't have the link), and it was dismissed because the screenshot contained only two-three posts by him bumping something (at least this is the way I believe it went, please correct me if I'm wrong, perhaps someone has a link?).

I told myself I wouldn't bring all of this up, but because of this incident, combined with a number of others which can also be laid out if necessary, I nearly quit playing this game, most seriously. Crazygirl has quit active gameplay and one of the reasons was another such incident. Others have considered and seriously discussed the same.

I recognize and appreciate the fact that this incident is still being investigated. I am extremely surprised to see this brought to light and see this as a very positive step. I hope that the issue does not drop to the wayside, as there are a few rather large groups of players that have been affected by what most perceive as demonstrated bias, not only through NS, but trickling over into NS IRC channels. It's hard to play the game the way a lot of people play it when you know that the opposition includes a moderator who doesn't seem to be able to seperate his moderation duties and his interest in gameplay.

Thanks for listening.

This bothers me. First, the assumption, and second, the follow-through requests for more details.

I don't see morbid curiousity as sufficient reason to want to know the outcome. In other cases that we moderate, there are sometimes public problems with public solutions; and other times the problem and solution are private. The fact that this has been made public by [violet] is a sign of the standard by which moderators must abide.

As for the rest of it, frankly ... what business is it of yours? For that matter, what business is it of mine? I wasn't party to the original complaint, nor to any interaction between Admin and the accused, and I haven't been approached by any of the involved parties, whomever they might be. It's not my affair, and I'm in no position to judge what the Admins think is an appropriate punishment / limitation / follow-thorough. However, I do trust [violet] and Salusa to do what's best in the case, and what's best for the site.

Moderators are held to a higher standard, and our mistakes are rightfully publicized. That doesn't mean that offenders must be put in stocks in the public square while villagers pelt them with rocks and rotten food. There has been a public judgement. I see no need for the flogging to be public as well.


Fris, if I may:

This is not your thread to be responding in this manner. At this point, this thread, and the queries presented, are for Sal and [violet] and Max. As the admin have started this thread, and continued with it, it most definatly appears that your response here is nothing less than unneeded and most definatly out of your particular jurisdiction. You do not know the circumstances, as you stated. Why post in the thread as a moderator?

I think it's safe to say every mod has made a mistake or two since they became a mod. The mods must deal with tons of complaints and people asking for this and for that. I can understand how a mod could get upset and perhaps maybe not act quite themselves from being tired or who knows the reason. Myrth said he was sorry and that is good enough, at least for me.

I think it's safe to say every mod has made a mistake or two since they became a mod. The mods must deal with tons of complaints and people asking for this and for that. I can understand how a mod could get upset and perhaps maybe not act quite themselves from being tired or who knows the reason. Myrth said he was sorry and that is good enough, at least for me.


Mistake, sure.

But giving out information that was for mods only, messing up plans of his ingame opposition, and not only once?
Mocking the fact that I was hurt because of a friend's death?
How he dealt with the deletion of one of my friend's nations, which had to be turned around and his ruling made invalid?

And now this situation again?

And we suspect more situations we can't prove because of lack of access and because mods all protect their own...

All these "mistakes" and also what Pope Hope said, make it that Myrth's credibility has gone below zero, into the negative with a big group of players.

He's got it so far, finally, that I don't even actively want to play the game, because I don't want to spend time into setting something up, just to have some corrupt mod play it on to the other side, ruining it all again.

For you it is easy to say it's enough, why? Because nothing wrong was done to you. But to us, there was, time and time again.

For you it is easy to say it's enough, why? Because nothing wrong was done to you.

No, I say this because I know Myrth pretty well, probably better than most in fact and I know Myrth would never on purpose abuse his mod powers. He's not like that. He must of been upset. I've seen just about every mod lose it once or twice with people. The mistake was made public and Myrth has said sorry. What more do you want? His head on a stick? I just think perhaps Myrth was having a bad day. I don't know the story, but I do know Myrth and he would never do that with malice.

This mistake was made public. There were more though. And they all just happened to be against the same group of players every freaking time. And that comment of his was way out of line. And a few days ago, he had that particular comment as motto. Out of context, nothing wrong with it, but put in the context of the IRC chat, very hurtful. That was no mistake.

But, of course, you know Myrth, and he'd never do that. Are you really that naive? :rolleyes:

We are just interested in what will happen in a friendly way.
There are interested parties with legitimate grievances, and those people deserve a response. As I understand it, that has been at least partially done in private. It does not have to made public for those who are interested "in a friendly way", whom I see in the same light as people who slow for a traffic accident to see if they can get vicarious thrills from viewing the carnage. There is nothing "friendly" about wanting to see someone punished.

This post and my prior post were mild thread-jacking to address posters who had no reason other than morbid curiousity to know this outcome. I apologize for the thread-jack, but not the sentiment. As a forum mod, it's part of my job to keep things on topic. If you're not a party to a moderation issue (especially one that has been repeatedly addressed by admins), you should stay out of the thread.

No, I say this because I know Myrth pretty well, probably better than most in fact and I know Myrth would never on purpose abuse his mod powers. He's not like that. He must of been upset. I've seen just about every mod lose it once or twice with people. The mistake was made public and Myrth has said sorry. What more do you want? His head on a stick? I just think perhaps Myrth was having a bad day. I don't know the story, but I do know Myrth and he would never do that with malice.


Also, maybe you'd have a tiny bit more credibilty posting with your main nation, rather than hiding behind a puppet.

Is flamebaiting really necessary, CG?

Also, maybe you'd have a tiny bit more credibilty posting with your main nation, rather than hiding behind a puppet.

This is the only nation I have.

Moldavi, wondered when you'd show up defending your pet mod.

And Xanaz, I looked up your nation's history, which makes that very unlikely, but fine, if you want to play it that way.

I believe this thread was started simply to point out that Myrth should not have warned himself about a possible spamming occurance.

I fail to see the point at which it became an official Devader witchhunt and became a thread for you to post your false complaints against him. If Myrth has violated Rules then point it out otherwise, please stop this, it does no one any good for you to continue to post flamebait in an attempt to start an arguement or get other players into possible trouble.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023
Mod Oppression and Mod Bias: NationStates moderation is based on acting against rule-breaking in the games and the forums. Political opinions do not factor into official decisions by moderators. We make our rulings and interpretations as official representatives of NationStates, and are acting in the name of Max Barry. Our only agenda is RULES ENFORCEMENT. It's often the case that posters who lack the control to post within the rules also hold strong opinions on other matters, and it may appear that the mods are suppressing a particular viewpoint. This is NOT the case. Anyone who shares that viewpoint and manages to post within the rules is welcome to express their opinion.

What you see as bias may not be so.

And Xanaz, I looked up your nation's history, which makes that very unlikely, but fine, if you want to play it that way.

I never said I didn't have a nation other than this one in the past. What I said was this is the only nation I have. Which right now it is. All of my other nations died from lack of activity.

Listen up, people: I want everyone to back off from this topic and chill. Everyone.

If anyone has evidence to present, they can file it through the Getting Help page or E-mail it to salusa@nationstates.net

Otherwise, I will repeat what Salusa said:Actions have been taken and discussion/evaluation is ongoing.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

If anyone has evidence to present, they can file it through the Getting Help page or E-mail it to salusa@nationstates.net

I would suggest only reporting it via e-mail, as we all now know the GHP is compromised.

I would suggest only reporting it via e-mail, as we all now know the GHP is compromised.Myrth has been told not to touch "Getting Help" requests that pertain to him. That's the whole point of this topic.

That said, people may still submit their evidence by E-mail.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Myrth has been told not to touch "Getting Help" requests that pertain to him. That's the whole point of this topic.

I understand that very point, but the fact that this was even an issue is and is being discussed is not going to ease the minds of the majority of us who have seen/presented evidence in this particular case. The safest way for us to ensure that Myrth truly does not mess with what we present is to send it to Sal, and I was just reminding those who hadn't already done so, that this is the way it should be done.

I would suggest only reporting it via e-mail, as we all now know the GHP is compromised.

The GHP is not compromised. I can assure you of that.

I refuse to believe that mods can make mistakes. They are, after all, cron jobs
No, they're actually a daemon. modd.
But they're written in Perl, so they're buggy and unmaintainable, so they make mistakes.

Had they been written in Python, though... :P

The GHP is not compromised. I can assure you of that.

Unfortunately, as long as Myrth is part of the moderation team in any capacity as a game moderator, I will never again (I can't speak for anybody else in NS) think that the GHP is secure or any moderation requests I personally make are going to even be seen through an objective eye if dealt with by him.

It's unfortunate that this event has to happened, I like to think of the good in people, and I have no doubt that Myrth is a good person in real life, but when it comes to NationStates, I have seen time-and-time again that he gives wreckless disregard to the rules when they apply to himself, his interests and the regions he populates.

Many of us have come forward, presented evidence, and so far this is the only thing that can be shown for our efforts to present facts. This is why several have practically left the game, others have seriously contemplated leaving and the rest laugh at us because as long as Myrth is around, they are on the "winning" side of everything when it comes to what rules they violate and what help they get from the inside.

Myrth has ruined the game for many of us and the day he was named a Game Moderator was the day that cemented in stone that there was no way a level playing field was ever going to be part of our NationStates experience.

I trust Myrth 100 percent, and that is more than I can say of most people posting here in this thread!

Is there not any way to put a stop to these baseless accusations?

It is getting absurd.

If Myrth has destroyed gameplay for you then why are you still here?

If Myrth has broken rules then he would have already been dealt with. The fact that some people don't like that he doesn't give preferential treatment to a certain group that has grown accustomed to it doesn't mean he is cheating or violating any code of ethics.

If I started posting that I think Mod-X (name kept from the post because I do not care to stoop to the same level as some others) is a supporter of the ADN because he frequents their forum and posts in secure areas does that make it correct? If I start threads saying that he gives preferential treatment to requests made by members of that organization over and above requests made by others does that make it true?

If you don't have hard, NS-based facts, then it is just opinion, everyone has one, not everyone cares about yours or mine.

It's truly humorous to see the only people angry that some of us are confronting this topic are the ones that have been favored by Myrth.

It's truly humorous to see the only people angry that some of us are confronting this topic are the ones that have been favored by Myrth.

Geez, you over blow everything TH! It's a game!

Why don't we take Cog's ruling to leave this thread alone and let the people in charge deal with it.

I will not post again in this thread because we've been asked not to by a moderator. *hint*

Actually, I only started posting when Crazy Girl began flamebaiting, as you are doing now.

It's humorous that the only people crying about the supposed bias are the ones that have the most to loose by someone acting in a fair and equal manner. (See how that works? That isn't a fair statement but is on par with the drivel you and yours seem to be posting here.)

Why don't we take Cog's ruling to leave this thread alone and let the people in charge deal with it.

So be it. Can't fight injustice with injustice, now can we? :rolleyes:

However, I do trust [violet] and Salusa to do what's best in the case, and what's best for the site.

That's nice, I would not expect otherwise from a mod. I regard it even to be part of the requirements to be a mod ;)

Personally I also think it's best for the site when players know they can trust the mod/admin team. Showing there is accountability in this manner has two sides: on the one hand it shows there is active oversight. On the other side it focusses on errors made, which could actually reduce player trust. Which way this will go, only time will tell.

Also new is the mod in the wrong appologizing. Myrth has priorly been overruled twice while using mod-only information to infringe on my gameplay position and didn't bother to appologize in either case. Still, I welcome this change in posture taken now and hope it will last. Mods are human and make mistakes just like everybody else, and so freely admitting falibility will hopefully make players realize the mods' humanity and allow for more patience and understanding in the future.

Ballotonia

[... lots of stuff I won't quote...]

Moldavi... since you were the person Myrth was giving inside information straight from the mod-center (as admitted by Myrth, and verified by [violet], and also handled priorly, so this is not a new complaint... I'm speaking about past tense here), I'm really wondering what you were thinking as you jumped into this thread in defense of Myrth... You've experience at least one of his prior officially recorded errors as you first-hand benefitted from it at the time.

I strongly suggest you consider your own involvement before continuing to post here in the manner you're doing now...

Ballotonia

I have no idea what you are referring to.

The item you reference was mentioned to me one other time by Crazy Girl but I have never seen any such evidence or been enlightened as to what I was told by Myrth from the mod center.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I'm not saying that "The GHP is not compromised" simply as an assertion. I'm saying that I personally am ensuring (as are several others) that it is not compromised. The system is designed specifically to encourage us to watch and moderate each other. Logs are kept of every action that a moderator takes and these cannot be modified. This means that should $moderator choose to do something, every other moderator (and myself) can easily discover this and remedy it.

So, in conclusion: The GHP is not compromised because no moderator can take any permanent action related to it AND all actions by all moderators are carefully logged so should a mod take innapropriate action we can remedy it and discipline the moderator appropriately.

Moldavi: we have shown our evidence to admin, no need to show you.

As for the rest:

Sal said evaluation and discussion is still going on, let's wait for that. No more posts from our side until that, please.

If you have any complaints about Myrth, email them to Sal.
For other problems, I trust the GHP is safe enough.

Moldavi: we have shown our evidence to admin, no need to show you.

Then I would kindly ask that you and your associates stop referencing actions supposedly taken by me or on my behalf of which I have no direct knowledge.

EDIT: For the record, I too believe the Getting Help Page to be safe and effective and would suggest everyone continue to make use of it. It is the quickest and most reliable method of reporting possible rules violations.

Okay guys... I am obviously not a mod, but I am tired of seeing this bickering...

Have some of the mods done things wrong? Possibly.
Will they eventually have it brough to light? Probably.
Should we all whine and complain when a ruling goes agaist us? No.
Should we flame the members of the other side should the ruling go to them? Absolutely not!

There are many accusations against Myrth... some possibly real, some possibly baseless.

These complaints/accusations should be stated in a GHR or an email to Admin as Cogitation has said in Post #34 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8920790&postcount=34).

So please, can we all stop this flaming/counterflaming and just let the mods and admin do their jobs?

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation][The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation Semi-Official Stamp-Of-Approval.][/modedit]

If I started posting that I think Mod-X (name kept from the post because I do not care to stoop to the same level as some others) is a supporter of the ADN because he frequents their forum and posts in secure areas does that make it correct?

For the record, I haven't seen a post from a NationStates Moderator on the ADN forum in months, whether in secure forums or non-secure forums.

Goobergunchia II
ADN Global Moderator

So please, can we all stop this flaming/counterflaming and just let the mods and admin do their jobs?

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation][The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation Semi-Official Stamp-Of-Approval.][/modedit]Yes, it'd be nice if the bickering were to stop.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

For the record, I haven't seen a post from a NationStates Moderator on the ADN forum in months, whether in secure forums or non-secure forums.

Goobergunchia II
ADN Global Moderator

Well I wouldn't know about the current ADN forum. I have been IP banned there for about 6 months now. :)

Let me make something clear to everyone. I'm starting to get really pissed. We are trying to do this openly and fairly, yet whenever I visit this thread and read the barbs being thrown in all direction, I almost start regretting it.

I don't want any apologies, or last words, or excuses. It will all stop now. If you have something important and reasonable to say, then say it reasonably. If I even suspect that you're trying to cause trouble, I'll just forum ban you.

I'm not even going to ask "Understood?" because I don't want another mention of this post, or any of the problems that led to this post in the thread. I'm going to assume that you understand. If you post responding to this post, I'll ban you.

Sal, would it be okay to tell us some possible consequences Myrth faces (or consequences resulting in changes to the system) from this matter? I'd understand if it were not, but, I'd like to know.

Sal, would it be okay to tell us some possible consequences Myrth faces (or consequences resulting in changes to the system) from this matter? I'd understand if it were not, but, I'd like to know.

For questions such as this (for now at least), I direct you to my earlier post:

Actions have been taken and discussion/evaluation is ongoing.

Let me make something clear to everyone. I'm starting to get really pissed. We are trying to do this openly and fairly, yet whenever I visit this thread and read the barbs being thrown in all direction, I almost start regretting it.

I don't want any apologies, or last words, or excuses. It will all stop now. If you have something important and reasonable to say, then say it reasonably. If I even suspect that you're trying to cause trouble, I'll just forum ban you.

I'm not even going to ask "Understood?" because I don't want another mention of this post, or any of the problems that led to this post in the thread. I'm going to assume that you understand. If you post responding to this post, I'll ban you.

Sal, ban me if you must...but I think this needs to be said, and I'll try to keep it simple and to the point:

This thread did deteriorate rather quickly; however, a number of people were trying to publicly voice their concerns because they feel that they have not been dealt with properly when sent directly / privately to [violet], max, and yourself.

In addition to that, what they see is a response to ONE single incident they reported to [violet], Max, and yourself and yet they have reported quite a few more. Pope and Crazy's first posts were stating that they appreciate the investigation, but they want to see more than just an apology for a single incident that isnt even the worst that Myrth has allegedly been involved in.

In response to this, a few of Myrth's supporters came in and started talking crap to Crazy. Granted, she should not have responded in kind...but it happened.

Locking down discussion on the thread hardly seems like what needs to be done. People are offering / asking for help with a situation.


That's just my 2 cents.

-Neut

Sal, ban me if you must...but I think this needs to be said, and I'll try to keep it simple and to the point:

This thread did deteriorate rather quickly; however, a number of people were trying to publicly voice their concerns because they feel that they have not been dealt with properly when sent directly / privately to [violet], max, and yourself.

In addition to that, what they see is a response to ONE single incident they reported to [violet], Max, and yourself and yet they have reported quite a few more. Pope and Crazy's first posts were stating that they appreciate the investigation, but they want to see more than just an apology for a single incident that isnt even the worst that Myrth has allegedly been involved in.

In response to this, a few of Myrth's supporters came in and started talking crap to Crazy. Granted, she should not have responded in kind...but it happened.

Locking down discussion on the thread hardly seems like what needs to be done. People are offering / asking for help with a situation.


That's just my 2 cents.

-Neut

For the sole reasons that you are both an ex-moderator and are demonstrating a need for clarification, I will not ban you.

I am not banning discussion, posts, etc, to this thread. I am simply requiring civility. If people are not civil and start sniping at each other, they will quickly find themselves without forum access for a bit. As long as people are civil, discussion may continue.

I am not banning discussion, posts, etc, to this thread. I am simply requiring civility. If people are not civil and start sniping at each other, they will quickly find themselves without forum access for a bit. As long as people are civil, discussion may continue.

Thanks...that's all I was asking for.

I'm also very disappointed in some of the responses I see here. In particular, it's disappointing to see more evidence-free accusations about Myrth.

We have a moderator protocol and an appeal process, which allow all complaints against moderators to be investigated. When there is substance to them, action is taken. The mod may be spoken to, or the action corrected, or overruled, or, as in this case, a formal report made.

For unknown reasons, though, some of Myrth's in-game opponents seem to think it's more effective to throw around vague, evidence-free accusations of "bias" and "corruption"--even in this thread--while refraining from pointing out any particular thing he did wrong.

I am astounded to see Tuesday Heights referring to "many" occasions when complaints "with evidence" have been lodged against Myrth. I'll tell you what I've seen: a great deal of unsubstantiated slander. There's plenty in this thread alone: attacks on Myrth without mentioning anything specific, the implication that there is a conspiracy to hide moderator misdeeds, and a warning to not use the "Getting Help" page because it cannot be trusted. This is all highly inflammatory and totally useless.

It's useless because if a moderator is breaking protocol, it's the simplest thing in the world to prove. Every single thing a mod does is logged. If you think they did something wrong, we can check. So if a mod acts incorrectly, you simply need to query it. It is an open and accountable system of moderation.

But there is nothing I can do with, "This moderator is corrupt." You can't just say you don't like him. Lots of players say that about lots of mods, but it's not actionable. You have to allege something specific: something that can be checked, to see if you're right. That's what happened in the incident this thread was created for.

The system works. If you have a problem with a moderator, use it. Don't just throw dirt around, because it gets you nowhere and helps no-one.

While I don't know if it is right to to take upon myself the responsibility to do so, " so drown me then ", I have thus resolved in that regard ... and so :

I'd myself like to thank both the Administrators and Moderation Staff for their continued concern and effort to provide us with an enjoyable gaming environment, ( Of which this process has been just one facet of, you know ! ), with as much transparency and accountability in moderating actions as they can provide without risking over-all operation security of the game itself in cases of disclosure.

It is this degree of consideration, despite the risk of ... personal adversity which they sometimes do face, that greatly contributes to my, our, continued enjoyment of NationStates.

I would like to say that I have no personal opinion on what brought this thread to be created to state here, other than to say that I have trust that both the Administrators and Moderation Staff will see to exactly what Salusa said being done,

" Actions have been taken and discussion/evaluation is ongoing. "

Because I have every expectation that this is what they will do.

Also, nice to see you do still post here, [violet] despite any other distractions :p

Hey, I have played this game for not so long time but I have something to share with you and hoping I won't be banned.

So, first please let me start by saying I do not know how the mods are accesing the Getting Help Page.
I am thinking of a page where a number of requests are stored every hour/day/week. So, wouldnt be easy for mod. X to access this page (this was logged and can be seen by the other mods) and he reads one complain. He doesnt need to do something ingame to be recorded, the mod. X can just go to IRC and tell someone what he did.

But as I said, I do not know how the mods are accesing the Getting Help Page. Thanks!

']I'm also very disappointed in some of the responses I see here. In particular, it's disappointing to see more evidence-free accusations about Myrth.

We have a moderator protocol and an appeal process, which allow all complaints against moderators to be investigated. When there is substance to them, action is taken. The mod may be spoken to, or the action corrected, or overruled, or, as in this case, a formal report made.

For unknown reasons, though, some of Myrth's in-game opponents seem to think it's more effective to throw around vague, evidence-free accusations of "bias" and "corruption"--even in this thread--while refraining from pointing out any particular thing he did wrong.

I am astounded to see Tuesday Heights referring to "many" occasions when complaints "with evidence" have been lodged against Myrth. I'll tell you what I've seen: a great deal of unsubstantiated slander. There's plenty in this thread alone: attacks on Myrth without mentioning anything specific, the implication that there is a conspiracy to hide moderator misdeeds, and a warning to not use the "Getting Help" page because it cannot be trusted. This is all highly inflammatory and totally useless.

It's useless because if a moderator is breaking protocol, it's the simplest thing in the world to prove. Every single thing a mod does is logged. If you think they did something wrong, we can check. So if a mod acts incorrectly, you simply need to query it. It is an open and accountable system of moderation.

But there is nothing I can do with, "This moderator is corrupt." You can't just say you don't like him. Lots of players say that about lots of mods, but it's not actionable. You have to allege something specific: something that can be checked, to see if you're right. That's what happened in the incident this thread was created for.

The system works. If you have a problem with a moderator, use it. Don't just throw dirt around, because it gets you nowhere and helps no-one.

I've seen some of the evidence...in my opinion, it's been pretty cut and dry. I'm not sure what has been sent your way, though.

The problem is that people are currently afraid the system has been abused, and that posting their problems on the getting help page causes more in-game problems because, lets be honest, no one has time to look at every single moderator action taken by Myrth to verify that he didnt do something directly to his benefit.

They've also sent reports / evidence (granted, I dont know the scope of what was sent) to admin@nationstates.net and in response were told that there was nothing that could be done because by the time it was investigated, the evidence had disappeared off the regional HQ, etc.

The people accused of throwing baseless accusations are some of the oldest, highest respected nations around here. Having discussed the situation with a number of them in IRC before becoming involved, I can assure you that this is not a situation in which they decided to have a Mod thrown off the squad just because he's an invader. This has been growing for some time, and these same people have become frustrated with your system and are now starting to bring their problems public hoping that might cause them to be, in their opinion, properly addressed.

First, I hope I don't get banned either.

I don't think anyone save a small group that belong to one group are saying that Myrth is corrupt in anyway. Also the system may have changed since you were a mod Neut, as in Max or Salusa might of updated the way mod actions can be tracked in the mod center.

Myrth may have made a mistake. What mod hasn't? However, over all Myrth takes being a mod very serious and does a damn good job at it. (Note: mod olympics) Myrth has a good sense of humor and I have found at times it is lost on some. I have known Myrth a long time and there is no way he is abusing his mod powers with malice. I don't believe it for a second. Perhaps he may have done some thing that a mod should not of done without thinking first. But to say that Myrth did some thing using his mod powers for personal gain in the game I believe to be baseless.

If I may:

There was mention that this was not the first instance where Myrth has been reprimanded for supposed conflict of interest. Can anyone provide the links to those instances, if they do in fact exist? My searches were very ineffectual.

Thanks.

I guess I will echo the general sentiment of Sal, please don't ban me for this.

I believe that the post by Cogitation (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6682531&postcount=36) in the Regarding the North Pacific delegate change... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343747) thread of 28 July - 1 August 2004 is applicable as a response to Sdaeriji's question.

']It's useless because if a moderator is breaking protocol, it's the simplest thing in the world to prove. Every single thing a mod does is logged. If you think they did something wrong, we can check. So if a mod acts incorrectly, you simply need to query it. It is an open and accountable system of moderation.


Maybe it would ease the mind of some if those logs were made public? After all, isn't it just a matter of setting up a web page, a script to copy the logs to it and providing a link to it?

despite this i belive NS has some of the best mods around, not like those airsoft forums :mad:

Maybe it would ease the mind of some if those logs were made public? After all, isn't it just a matter of setting up a web page, a script to copy the logs to it and providing a link to it?

I would think this would be impossible, simply because it would violate the privacy of players by revealing to everyone that their nations were being reviewed for possible wrongdoing.

I believe that the post by Cogitation (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6682531&postcount=36) in the Regarding the North Pacific delegate change... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343747) thread of 28 July - 1 August 2004 is applicable as a response to Sdaeriji's question.

Since the mods had to lock the topic to discuss the merits of it. Any mod could of made this mistake. This is not evidence of any wrong doing by Myrth. It seems perfectly innocent to me.

I've seen some of the evidence...in my opinion, it's been pretty cut and dry. I'm not sure what has been sent your way, though.
This is precisely what I object to: again, non-specific allegations without any substantiation. I have seen about as much second-hand hearsay as I am prepared to tolerate. As I've said before, I am prepared to look at any complaint about a mod breaching protocol. But this stream of dark mutterings without any specific allegations is harrassment.

The problem is that people are currently afraid the system has been abused, and that posting their problems on the getting help page causes more in-game problems
If you think the system is being abused, you must think every Game Moderator is conspiring--because any of them can see what all the others are doing, and could object to it. This is madness.

When you see that complaints filed through the system get results--this very thread, for example--I really am at a loss as to how you can claim there is abuse going on.

because, lets be honest, no one has time to look at every single moderator action taken by Myrth to verify that he didnt do something directly to his benefit.
Of course not. Nor am I prepared to action a complaint like, "Please review every single action Myrth has ever taken, because he's biased."

If anyone here is convinced that a moderator has been abusing his power, it should be a simple matter to point out some specific incidents. Report it through the system and we can check. It's that easy.

They've also sent reports / evidence (granted, I dont know the scope of what was sent) to admin@nationstates.net and in response were told that there was nothing that could be done because by the time it was investigated, the evidence had disappeared off the regional HQ, etc.
First, I can do without allegations that you heard that Myrth did something bad and you don't know what but it must have been covered up. I've already said such talk is unproductive and inflammatory.

Second, I believe you're talking about this earlier incident (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=403476), where it was alleged that Myrth spammed a regional board with his in-game nation. Crazy Girl decided to start a public thread about it, rather than use the "Getting Help" page. If it had been, the evidence would have been preserved--instead, we had to trust that the player was posting a true copy of what they saw. Even so, the allegation was that Myrth made two "bump" posts on a Pacific board. As I said in that thread, we wouldn't punish a regular player for two bump posts on a Pacific board, and neither would we punish Myrth.

No breach of moderator protocol was alleged: it was all about Myrth's in-game nation. And the allegation wasn't filed through the system, but made in a public thread! You cannot say the system doesn't work and use as evidence a case in which the system wasn't even used.

these same people have become frustrated with your system and are now starting to bring their problems public hoping that might cause them to be, in their opinion, properly addressed.
This is ridiculous. As I have already made perfectly clear, we have an open and effective system for reviewing mod actions. The very fact that this thread exists is evidence that it works.

If players elect not to use this system--if instead they cast unsubstantiated slurs on a moderator in public threads--then I can't help them. I can't make it any plainer: this is the worst possible way of getting your concerns addressed.

If there's a problem, use the system and we can deal with it. If you don't file complaints through the system, then don't expect results.

[violet]

I was not attempting to make accusations. Rather, I was attempting to convince yourself to not take such a hard line against the people complaining about Myrth.

However, as you feel it is necessary to respond with the same arguments used before, I shall retire permanently from NationStates. This is no longer the enjoyable forum it was years ago when I first joined, and the concerns of the people are being disregarded time and again.


-Neut out.

If I may butt in here, and I do hope that that is permitted:

I know nothing of this whole situation other than what I have read in this thread. I can't very well say if Myrth has broken rules before or not.

However, it seems that people are complaining about [violet]'s stance on the issue being too hardline or something.

Is there a part which I am missing? From what I see, it appears that [violet] is simply saying that proof must be given before action is taken. Is that not simply the rules in action?

Of course, I know nothing about the other incidents referred to, so it may be that there are other things which pertain to this that I do not know of.

Bye Neut, keep in touch. You're not the only one. :(

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=421272

Is there a part which I am missing? From what I see, it appears that [violet] is simply saying that proof must be given before action is taken.
Actually, in most cases I don't need proof. I can get that myself. I just need a specific allegation.

I have a lot of respect for many of the people on the other side of this debate, but why they think that tendering resignations, carping in public threads, etc, is the way to get what they want is a mystery to me.

As much as speculation and hearsay is fun....


The details of this are still being worked out. Please everyone take a step back for a bit. If you have something to present either email it to admin, or myself at karmathemod@gmail.com and we will take a look. If you send us something it will be given a fair look and action will be taken if necessary. Now please stop judging us on actions that we have yet to take.


If you need to talk anything over, feel free to contact me on IRC.

Let me clear something up:

What [violet] is say is that we need an itemized list of details.
"On September 16, 2004, Myrth did this...."
"On October 3, 2004, Myrth did that...."
"On Octboer 22, 2004, Myrth did the other thing...."
"On November 1, 2004, Myrth took this action...."

All of the allegations against Myrth, every single little detail, needs to be compiled into a single, itemized list. [violet] and the Mods can then examine the official records, knowing what to look for.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

']Actually, in most cases I don't need proof. I can get that myself. I just need a specific allegation.
Aha! I had temporarily forgotten about the whole "The admins have the game records" stuff.
Sorry about the temporary breach of logic there.

Let me clear something up:

What [violet] is say is that we need an itemized list of details.
No, I don't need an itemized list. I just need something specific.

This thread is an example: Myrth, as moderator, responded to a complaint about his in-game nation. That's one incident, reported, and verified. It's a significant breach of mod protocol, and has been treated extremely seriously. The resolution determined was to make a public report, including an apology from Myrth to the people involved. I don't take the decision to embarass a mod in public lightly, and consider it a serious punishment.

As much as speculation and hearsay is fun....

*drops his pitchfork and burning torch* Fine!

Seriously though, and without sounding to soppy, I would just like to say that holding this matter in public, reinforces my and I’m sure many other players somewhat shaken confidence in the moderation system, I can only say that honest proceedings such as these can only be good for nationstates players and its moderators.

However, (and I have nothing to do with this Myrth thing, but I feel I should post this anyway) I do believe that an abuse of the moderation system is perhaps a most disappointing and unfortunate occurrence. Let us not forget that Moderators volunteer to make the game enjoyable for all players by enforcing and insuring that Admins rules are met, and by purposefully abusing their moderator powers, (If they have done!) then why should, and why would they wish to remain a moderator if the running and happiness of the game is no longer in their vested interests. (Think about it for a second)

I personally feel that a moderators responsibility to the rules of Nationstates and to the players can sometimes be lost in this game, Moderators are here for the Players as well as the rules, and respecting and attempting to achieve a balance between the two makes a good and well liked moderator, as well as insuring confidence in the system.

']Actually, in most cases I don't need proof. I can get that myself. I just need a specific allegation.

I have a lot of respect for many of the people on the other side of this debate, but why they think that tendering resignations, carping in public threads, etc, is the way to get what they want is a mystery to me.
(fat is mine)

[violet] takes sides? :eek:

One would expect that being an Administrator, they'd have to take a side, as they would make a decision, thus placing them in some camp or another of thought. In theory. Or something.

People make mistakes and mods included. Being a Programmer and back-up System Administrator in real life, these things happens.

Just assume [violet] to be on the right side and everything will be fine. :)

I think I'm gonna quit because I didn't get me way too. Everyone feel sorry for me.







No, wait. Scratch that.

No need to be snide.

I cannot understand this.
Violet stated the Message, and reported to the masses what happened,
The Punishment is not our domain, only persons who need to know what was meted out and how are the Meter and the metee no one else.

I also cannot understand why this topic is even still alive.
It has to be some personal vendetta toward Myrth because he didnt side with some stupid in game faction.
I of all people still playing should have a score to settle with him because
when I first arrived Myrth was the one leading the Ban all the persons who arrived via the Link on Fark Sentiment that was running rampant through Europe, But I dont, Im perfectly fine with him.
I think that his performance has been pretty well so far in game for two main reasons, one the volume of work he does and one little thing he hasnt,

Everyone who is here just to cast stones at him is just stroking up their own Childish ego's. and That is really annoying.

Just a Loop thought®

It has to be some personal vendetta toward Myrth because he didnt side with some stupid in game faction.

Surprisingly, this has nothing to do with in-game factions.

It has to be some personal vendetta toward Myrth because he didnt side with some stupid in game faction.

I think that's just the problem, he did side with some game faction. The whole discussion is if he mixed his own gameplay with his tasks as moderator.

The same people that are complaining about this are the same ones that were perfectly happy when it happened in their favor. You could cut the hipocrisy with a knife.

The same people that are complaining about this are the same ones that were perfectly happy when it happened in their favor. You could cut the hipocrisy with a knife.It sounds like you're claiming that there have been other breaches of Moderator protocol. If this is what you mean, then I'm very interested in hearing specific allegations. When, precisely, did "it happen in their favor"?

"Getting Help" page, salusa@nationstates.net, or cogitationthemod@yahoo.com, please.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

I think I'm gonna quit because I didn't get me way too. Everyone feel sorry for me.







No, wait. Scratch that.

ROFL @ all the people that missed the point. I did not throw a tantrum because I didnt get my way. Rather, I stated that I was quiting because I felt that player concerns were no longer being fairly addressed and too easily dismissed.

Now, if that sounds like a tantrum...well...dont have kids because you're in for a surprise...

ROFL @ all the people that missed the point. I did not throw a tantrum because I didnt get my way. Rather, I stated that I was quiting because I felt that player concerns were no longer being fairly addressed and too easily dismissed.

Now, if that sounds like a tantrum...well...dont have kids because you're in for a surprise...

I dont think he was refering to you Neut, but to someone else who has quit like three times in the last few weeks in that manner.

WFlanders, perhaps what the persons griping here are mad about is that he didnt Side with Their Orginization.

and lastly, Cog, I think what Nothingg means is a reference to the fact that you are a registered member of the ADN Forums and their people have often let slip that you advised them in various Devading missions.

and lastly, Cog, I think what Nothingg means is a reference to the fact that you are a registered member of the ADN Forums and their people have often let slip that you advised them in various Devading missions.


The only thing Cogitation did with the ADN is determine legality of a move, to prevent accidental rule breaking.

The only thing Cogitation did with the ADN is determine legality of a move, to prevent accidental rule breaking.That is correct. They let me see their plans and I inform them of whether or not their plans have any problems with NationStates rules. I do not inform them of what plans their enemies are using, nor do I give them information about which puppets belong to which puppetmasters, who has invisible endorsements from whom, who had their invisible endorsements wiped by a regional update, or anything else that falls under the aegis of Moderator secrecy or neutrality. I'm just giving examples; I'm implying nothing about what breaches any other Moderator has or has not committed.

Does that adequately address your concerns, Nothingg? ...or were you thinking of something other than what 1 Infinite Loop described?

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

That is correct. They let me see their plans and I inform them of whether or not their plans have any problems with NationStates rules. I do not inform them of what plans their enemies are using, nor do I give them information about which puppets belong to which puppetmasters, who has invisible endorsements from whom, who had their invisible endorsements wiped by a regional update, or anything else that falls under the aegis of Moderator secrecy or neutrality. I'm just giving examples; I'm implying nothing about what breaches any other Moderator has or has not committed.

Does that adequately address your concerns, Nothingg? ...or were you thinking of something other than what 1 Infinite Loop described?

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

However, Cog, the point remains that regardless of who contacts you about invasions - you are not actively involved in that aspect of gameplay. Myrth, however, is. Claiming that Myrth can work an invasion because his group is not actively involved does not address the information Myrth gains by becoming involved (information such as underlying tactics, etc. that could be used to his advantage when he chooses to invade a region).

A number of respected individuals have come forward to say that they've seen Myrth abusing his powers as GM to uncover puppets.

ROFL @ all the people that missed the point. I did not throw a tantrum because I didnt get my way. Rather, I stated that I was quiting because I felt that player concerns were no longer being fairly addressed and too easily dismissed.

Now, if that sounds like a tantrum...well...dont have kids because you're in for a surprise...

Huh? The things I miss...

Actually Cog, I had no idea you were in the ADN and I wasn't refering to you.

Most of the rulings against our group have been well documented in the past and I don't really care to dig up ancient history. I just think it's funny that certain players, who took it upon themselves to gloat when we felt we were unfairly ruled against, are now experiancing the same thing. I'm just sitting back enjoying myself. After all, this is still just a game.





P.S. I miss invading. I hope Max brings it back.

P.S. I miss invading. I hope Max brings it back.

My god...I take two weeks off and what happens...my dreams come true as well?

Actually Cog, I had no idea you were in the ADN and I wasn't refering to you.

Cog is not in the ADN. He was asked to help ascertain whether or not certain tactical endeavors were legal/illegal; he never was, nor is he now, an ADN Member. More like an objective bystander.

P.S. I miss invading. I hope Max brings it back.

Um... you can still invade here...

you are not actively involved in that aspect of gameplay. Myrth, however, is.

Do you have proof of what you state? First hand knowledge? If not, you really should stop making accusation against Myrth that you have no first hand knowledge of. If I recall correctly when people did it to you when you were a mod you didn't like it very much!

Hey - didn't you quit yesterday?

Do you have proof of what you state? First hand knowledge? If not, you really should stop making accusation against Myrth that you have no first hand knowledge of. If I recall correctly when people did it to you when you were a mod you didn't like it very much!

Hey - didn't you quit yesterday?


yeah nuterd ;-) anyways invading is legal anyway and not agianst the rules

This is just a friendly reminder to keep it civil.

Do you have proof of what you state? First hand knowledge? If not, you really should stop making accusation against Myrth that you have no first hand knowledge of. If I recall correctly when people did it to you when you were a mod you didn't like it very much!

Hey - didn't you quit yesterday?

I see no good in you putting Neut on the 'chopping block', when you yourself are making accusations against him without any solid proof.

It isn't very classy to rub something like that in his face. Neut is probably still interested, as a player, as to how this situation is going to turn out, and has every right to stick around to do so.

However, Cog, the point remains that regardless of who contacts you about invasions - you are not actively involved in that aspect of gameplay. Myrth, however, is. Claiming that Myrth can work an invasion because his group is not actively involved does not address the information Myrth gains by becoming involved (information such as underlying tactics, etc. that could be used to his advantage when he chooses to invade a region).

A number of respected individuals have come forward to say that they've seen Myrth abusing his powers as GM to uncover puppets.

Sal himself admits to participating in a few invasions in his early modding days, yet I dont see his carcass hung from this shed for all to throw salt at it.

this whole thread is silly, [Violet] who is the ruler here has punished Myrth,
the punishment was accepted, you people out there attempting to flay his hide are just being silly.

Neut you yourself as a mod once made yourself founder of a region in order to stop an invasion and you were not trussed up like this,
Cog, I am not trying to hurt your feelings but a few of the less tight lipped ADN types have told my puppets and my acounts on other places that you assist them in just the manners you have mentioned.

I suggest just closing this thread, it is turning into a liscense to Flame Myrth
Last I heard Mods were players too and we were supposed to respect that,
but I guess that he isnt allowed to be a player as he wants to he has to follow some external societys demands or they demand his resignation.

like I said, violet punished him, and it is her job, Not ours.

I'm not going to get involved in this argument beyond this post for the simple reason that I'll probably end up getting linked to JFK or a fake moon landing somehow. However, I will state that Myrth is not a member of the PRP (the Pacific off-site government), and as far as I am aware has never broken any rules in our favour. Indeed, I have a feeling the only reason he was ever in the Pacific is because a certain other forum moderator (who was also the founder of our IRC chat room) is.

From the very day Myrth was made a mod I have seen threads on certain regional forums asking all of their members to e-mail the admins in order that he be removed. Reasoning that it was because he was "an invader", or he "supported the tyrant Francos Spain", or any other number of silly and/or false reasons. Whilst I do not know every detail of Myrth's virtual life, and so cannot tell you what is true and what is not when it does not involve me, I do know that most of the people attacking him never needed a valid reason to do so other than he chose to socialise with the "wrong type" of people.

I can only tell you that all of the accusations I've seen that have been linked to myself or the Pacific regional government have been wrong. To give an example of the things that are being leapt on, last month there were nations of 5 million population posting on the Pacific civil HQ, and I said simply "Go back to Nasicournia", as it is usually Nasicournians who attack us, and this was met with "Did your pet mod tell you that?". Now, other than being handy for confirming who they were, I think this incident demonstrates the kind of thing we're talking about here.

If there are 'genuine concerns', they can be sent to the admins and I'm sure they will deal with them as soon as they can. But the constant harassment of myself, my comrades and Myrth grows tiresome. Gameplay should not be spilling over into moderation forums like this.

Sal himself admits to participating in a few invasions in his early modding days, yet I dont see his carcass hung from this shed for all to throw salt at it.

this whole thread is silly, [Violet] who is the ruler here has punished Myrth,
the punishment was accepted, you people out there attempting to flay his hide are just being silly.

Neut you yourself as a mod once made yourself founder of a region in order to stop an invasion and you were not trussed up like this,
Cog, I am not trying to hurt your feelings but a few of the less tight lipped ADN types have told my puppets and my acounts on other places that you assist them in just the manners you have mentioned.

I suggest just closing this thread, it is turning into a liscense to Flame Myrth
Last I heard Mods were players too and we were supposed to respect that,
but I guess that he isnt allowed to be a player as he wants to he has to follow some external societys demands or they demand his resignation.

like I said, violet punished him, and it is her job, Not ours.
Sal didnt use knowledge gained to his advantage.

I made myself founder of many regions, as did many mods, to stop illegal / griefing invasions. How else would you expect that the griefing would've been halted? I gained no advantage to my gameplay by doing so.

Loop, people are not asking that Myrth not be able to play. What they want is to know that the Mods that are dealing with invasions as moderators are not involving themselves in invasions as players as well.

Regardless of whether it's intentional or not, Myrth has gained an advantage. Personally, I'm not out for Myrth's head. I am, however, interested in seeing that the Mods are not using their GM powers to gain an advantage - whether intentional or not.

There are, however, other things I have seen written by Myrth that do cause me some concern outside of the invasion aspect. Being as I am not the person directly affected by Myrth's actions, I havent sent the evidence I've seen to [violet]. However, if need by, I will do so.

You know Neut, that is the exact reason I once long long ago in a forum far far away said.
"the Moderators should have seperate accounts not tied to their Play nations or even to any nations, so as to prevent accusations of cheating when one side decides that an unfair advantage is levvyed"

(not completely exact but it is something I have oft said)

my main complaint about this thread is is should have been a locked announcement and not a discussion and flaming session.

You know Neut, that is the exact reason I once long long ago in a forum far far away said.
"the Moderators should have seperate accounts not tied to their Play nations or even to any nations, so as to prevent accusations of cheating when one side decides that an unfair advantage is levvyed"

(not completely exact but it is something I have oft said)

my main complaint about this thread is is should have been a locked announcement and not a discussion and flaming session.

We feel that there is great value in openly discussing issues,etc. Had we posted this as a locked thread, we would have been attacked for suppressing conversation/debate. As long as this remains civil (and avoiding slander/etc) we're willing to leave this open.

Well, for a little longer at least.

You know Neut, that is the exact reason I once long long ago in a forum far far away said.
"the Moderators should have seperate accounts not tied to their Play nations or even to any nations, so as to prevent accusations of cheating when one side decides that an unfair advantage is levvyed"


Ahhh, but that doesnt keep the Mod from acquiring an advantage while carrying out his duties - it simply keeps the public from suspecting it. Unlike what most Governments practice, a cover-up is not a solution... ;)

Um... you can still invade here...

Sure invading is legal, you're just not allowed to do it any more.

You know, it's times like this I can't help but wish I actually DID have the 'inside information' certain persons have accused me of, because then this would all seem so much clearer.

As it stands, I've been sitting back and watching all of this, and getting rather disappointed in a number of folks here I thought better of. Lemme 'splain.

People want invasions to remain a legal and active part of the game, even though they are a product of how players created things, not an original vision.
They get it just so.
They grouch, and create more problems on account.

People grouch because they want a mod who's active in gameplay.
They get one.
They grouch more.

People grouch because they want more transparancy in moderator actions.
They get it.
They also get apologies.
They grouch more. Loudly, and at length. Which I could do with several more examples if I really wanted to, which I don't. Have I mentioned the baseless accusations all around and the 'omg hysterics and drama'?

You know what I've learned from this little exercise, boys and girls?











No matter what the admins do or don't do, SOMEONE is going to grouch. As usual. Regardless of right or wrong or intent or casuality, it's gonna piss someone out there right the hell off. Current players, past mods, folks who're still around but mostly inactive due to $reason, people who just sit on the sidelines and casually bat things around when the spirit moves them, you name it ... so yeah. Just going to sit back, and continue to enjoy the ride, because life is too short, and too busy, to sit and make such a fuss over a FREE GAME that we're all playing VOLUNTARILY. Time invested here does not give us inalienable rights - not a damn one of us. I don't care how long we've been around, or who we think we are on these forums or elsewhere.

Peace out, folks. Good luck with it all - seems yer gonna need it.

Cog, I am not trying to hurt your feelings but a few of the less tight lipped ADN types have told my puppets and my acounts on other places that you assist them in just the manners you have mentioned./me arches his eyebrows while drinking his iced tea, puts his tea down, and grins wryly.

Hmmm.... THAT'S an interesting claim.

Seriously, though, it is not a trivial accusation. Anyone who wants to make a specific allegation should submit a Getting Help request or an E-mail to salusa@nationstates.net. Be sure to include the names of the puppets that were supposedly exposed by me (or whatever specifics are applicable to the allegations being made) and the time at which the exposure was committed. There are ways for the Admins to determine whether or not the charges are true.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

A number of respected individuals have come forward to say that they've seen Myrth abusing his powers as GM to uncover puppets.I'm terribly reminded of Sheol and his 'I have evidence!'

It's odd, how he never managed to show it.

It's odd, how you or the others rallying against Myrth, go on about their evidence while never managing to show it.

And by god, I love the irony. Really, I do.

I havent sent the evidence I've seen to [violet]. However, if need by, I will do so....

...

One hundred and nine posts, a good number of which (some of them written by either [violet] or Salusa), state that this is exactly what is required to verify your so far baseless (For us innocent bystanders, anyway) accusations, thus eventually allowing to finally get a result out of this whole matter, and you ask if it is needed?

Instead of, ya'know, sending it, well, immediately?

Dare I ask why you took this course of action, or...?

Well, you don't seem to be especially fond of efficiency...

Having reread this thread yet again....


:headbang:


If y'all have proof - send it to Sal and [violet]. If you don't - shut up about it already, its hearsay and inadmissable.

If you hate the game - leave. Simple. It's free, you're here voluntarilly, and if you believe in the "Great Mod Conspiracy" - ok, why are you here again?

Enough already with all the allusions and proofless accusations! Really!

Myrth did wrong. Ok.
[violet] adjudicated the matter.
Myrth was given punishment for his part in things.

Case closed.

If there is evidence - as they say in poker, put up or shut up. Enough already of the torches and lynchmobs. If it exists, Sal and [violet] will show their hands in due time. I trust them - why don't you?

Move along people, nothing to see here.

Sure invading is legal, you're just not allowed to do it any more.

Yes, you are still allowed to do it.

It's odd, how you or the others rallying against Myrth, go on about their evidence while never managing to show it.

Many of us, unless everybody I know in this game is lying (which I highly doubt), have submitted our evidence in this matter; the problem lies in the fact that it doesn't appear other than a little slap on the wrist that anything we've submitted has been taken seriously.

So, before everybody starts calling "us" - as this has become a defender vs. everybody else matter for no reason other than that's all people see it as - I'd like to remind everyone, no matter where you stand, that just because you don't see any "evidence" splashed around this thread doesn't mean that we aren't justified in saying what we have said. We have submitted our evidence; this single incident is one piece of the puzzle. However, I will agree that many of us, myself included, have gone overboard. This isn't the thread for that, and I apologize, but you must understand that a lot of my personal feelings on this matter are emotionally-charged; that's not a good combination when posting or dealing with any situation.

I'd ask everybody in the thread to do as Vastiva suggests: "Put up or shut up" at this point. Nothing is being accomplished by waving around signs of discontent, and that's obvious by the way the thread has degenerated. I'd even go so far as to suggest if you previously submitted anything, send it again, via e-mail to Sal. Otherwise, we're just feeding bystanders - who know nothing of the situation - in their malcontent as well.

I trust them - why don't you?

This has nothing to do with trusting Sal or [violet]. It has to do with the fact that several of us, myself included, feel that our claims were ignored and this is all that came from them. If so, if this is really all that came of it, well then, it's disconcerting, but alas, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

This thread is officially over. Der Angst invoked the NS version of the Godwin Rule by mentioning Sheol.




Nothing to see here. Please move along.

It's odd, how you or the others rallying against Myrth, go on about their evidence while never managing to show it.

While I do not regard myself to be amongst those 'rallying' against Myrth, I do think that in the course of this thread the context is getting a tad blurred. This is not a public admission of Myrth making his first judgment error as moderator. There have been incidents before involving Myrth, and I know for certain the ones I called to the attention of [violet] have been handled. I regard those incidents being handled a good thing, as they indicate to me that verifications of mod activity are taking place as promised and I personally see no problem in the functioning of that system.

In addition to there being valid complaints there apparently has also been a large number of invalid or unsupported complaints which really do not help the system which checks mod activities. Pointing out repeatedly there have been these useless type of complaints should not take away from valid concerns people may have based on those incidents which were submitted with evidence, investigated, and shown to be valid complaints. Looking at the direction of this thread I fear this may be happening, so I felt the need to point this out specifically. Concerns expressed are not entirely based on vapor, there's a history of incidents here which players inform one another of in the course of regular gameplay. The facts of those incidents do fuel the mistrust towards Myrth functioning as a moderator. Ofcourse there are also unverified claims, rumours, and various falsehoods which are added to that mistrust, which isn't fair to Myrth. Players, admins, and mods hence have a solid interests in separating facts from fiction when evaluating moderator actions, and we should all participate in doing that as best as possible.

So, where does this leave us? Basically the system seems to be working as designed, and as such I would like to request Neutered Sputniks to submit any and all of the evidence he has alluded to regarding any abuse of power by any moderator. I'm not sure what you mean by "if need be" as for the admins to investigate a possible abuse of mod power there is a clear need to have the evidence in question submitted to them in the first place.

Ballotonia