NationStates Jolt Archive

Groznia, someone who harassed through telegram and private message the real life fiance and friends of Dante when he was in a coma, not to mention after he died, has placed a message about Dante in his motto simply to upset the players that knew him.

Nation: Hongus

Motto: "Alas poor Dante, I knew him well."

Now while this may not be clearly be a violation of the TOS, he is doing it directly to harass players who had a friend DIE that played this game, and he is mocking the fact that this player DIED.

I think this is utterly despicable and ask you to please consider making him remove the motto. This person sent messages to Dante's fiance and others talking about how Dante would be burning in hell, and as I understand it nothing could be done or was done at the time.

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

It seems like the biggest crime of all; insulting a player who died in real life. I do not, however, see what is offensive about "I knew him well" and stuff. How is this mockery?

Because previous to this, he was unsympathetic and cruel to his family and friends while he was in the hospital. The remark is a final sting.

He can say what he wants, but this is public domain and there are rules here. The motto needs to be removed.

I agree with Antanoa. Something definately needs to be done. At the least, the motto needs to be removed. If evidence can be presented of the other offences, perhaps harsher action might be taken.

I must say I agree with the request to have him remove it. It could be possibly seen as flamebait of another nation already on it's own considering previous actions, however, considering the player is deceased, I find it to be even worse.

I agree the line needs to be drawn, and personally, I think it was crossed here.

Dilber

Groznia perpetually insulted and threatened Dante and his friends and family prior to his death. This is yet another in a long string of crimes.

first think

HE IS WRONG

But techincally you cannnot force him to do anything, you can ask politly for him to remove it, but nothing more. I Fyou do more, it is a violation of his consitution right to free speech

The right to free speech does not necessarily apply here. This server is privately owned and is free to set up rules and restrictions. The Internet is free public domain, but this server is private property. Free speech does not apply to the extent it normally would.

first think

HE IS WRONG

But techincally you cannnot force him to do anything, you can ask politly for him to remove it, but nothing more. I Fyou do more, it is a violation of his consitution right to free speech

Hah, this is a private website. That doesn't really apply here.

Having just yesterday completed an "endorsement vigil" of a former member of my region (Annie, Lebedya), this is a rather timely question and one I feel strongly about.

When a player of our game dies, our community loses part of what has made it what it is. Certainly we may not get along with each and every player. But it is fortunate that we can collectively make and share a pasttime that entertains and sometimes educates us.

I'm only aware of one other player who has died since I've started playing. (Unfortunately, there are likely more.) I never "met" Francos Spain but I really wish I had – the more I hear about him. Would we have agreed about ideology and politics? Almost definitely not. But now I've heard that some folks are starting to suggest that FS was not a real person. I find that to be the height of poor taste and (as I view NS as a community) of incivility as well.

Let's imagine some enemy nation "ceased to exist" tomorrow. In game, I'd be glad the nation had expired. But if that nation vanished because the player had died – I would never say, "Good I'm glad that bastard's dead."

There are thinking, feeling people on the other side of this game and I'm mindful of that each time I sign on. The part that confuses me are those who think and feel that player and nation and style of play are all the same thing.

I must disagree with Pope Hope on one thing; specifically, that this is not clearly a violation.

What can't I post?

Any content that is:

obscene
illegal
threatening
malicious
defamatory
spam

This applies to your nation's name, motto, and other customizable fields, any messages you write, images you post, or any other content you upload or link to NationStates. If you do, your nation will be deleted. See the site's Terms & Conditions for details.

Also prohibited is the practice of "griefing." Griefing is playing with the primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people. If you do this, the game moderators may take action against you.

Thank you Goob, I love being wrong in a good way. I hope something will now be done about this.

I'm only aware of one other player who has died since I've started playing. (Unfortunately, there are likely more.) I never "met" Francos Spain but I really wish I had – the more I hear about him. Would we have agreed about ideology and politics? Almost definitely not. But now I've heard that some folks are starting to suggest that FS was not a real person. I find that to be the height of poor taste and (as I view NS as a community) of incivility as well.

Sorry to go off topic but.... he died? when?

Sorry to go off topic but.... he died? when?I always just heard that he had to go away due to RL circumstances. Nobody would tell me why... I'm curious though.

I must throw in my support with the good Pope Hope here. Although this may not be a clear-cut infraction of the rules, I ask Max and the moderators to look to common senses of decency. Just as harassment is not allowed because it is indecent and provocative, why should this type of motto be?

If this is not enough, I would request that the NS staff take a look at Groznia's history and maybe re-evaluate some things. After all, isn't the purpose of punishment to warn the offender to refrain from making similar wrongs in the future?

This situation is under review and discussion.

I thank you sincerely.

Wow...thats horrible

first think

HE IS WRONG

But techincally you cannnot force him to do anything, you can ask politly for him to remove it, but nothing more. I Fyou do more, it is a violation of his consitution right to free speechThis isn't free speech. It's Max Barry's game and message board and he can impose whatever rules he wants.

I think it should be illegal to mock the RL death of a player. I'd consider it a deatable offense if it were up to me.

Stupid bugger. I'm sorry, but if you've got nothing better to do than antagonize people over their loved one's death, then you should be shot, hung, and pissed on, no questions asked.

Mocking the death of anyone, whether on a game or IRL, is disgusting. Grow up, dude, because some day you'll end up mocking the wrong person, and it'll come back to haunt you.

SV

I hope it is under serious review Sal. I knew Franco and I saw the bile that was printed about him. I hope to God his parents didn't see it.

I have enough trust in PH to believe what she is saying about this matter. In all likelihood the victims are too distraught to even consider complaining. This definitely enters into abusive, flaming, derogatory and just plain inhuman. This player is hurting, intentionally, a survivor. A loved one. I place this on the same level as someone taunting a rape victim. No crime's been committed but the pain is there for an event they had little to no control over.

This is clearly behaviour outlined at the very least in spirit as being forbidden. It may not be clearly spelled out but the precedent is there for the spirit of the law. Please do not fall back on the black and white. If you have to ask Max. Please. This is cruel and callous intent at its worst.


~BlackAdder

first think

HE IS WRONG

But techincally you cannnot force him to do anything, you can ask politly for him to remove it, but nothing more. I Fyou do more, it is a violation of his consitution right to free speech

Got news for you, not everyone that plays NationStates is a United States citizen. Therefore free speech rights do not exist here, because this is also a private website.

Got news for you, not everyone that plays NationStates is a United States citizen. Therefore free speech rights do not exist here, because this is also a private website.

Citizenship is irrelevant here. The owner of the website determines what is allowed and what isn't, regardless of whether the site is in the UK, the US, or some other reasonably free country (sites operated from a dictatorship might be censored by the government too, but that concern doesn't apply here).

That said, I hope that the behavior under question is ruled griefing, for reasons already enumerated by others who posted before me.

Thank you BA. I know you do understand. I'm sure one of Dante's friends or family would have felt comfortable starting the thread themselves, but after Myrth remarked "Death solves all problems - no man, no problem." in an IRC chat about it to one of them I think the comfort level for raising the subject publicly was lost.

I did not know Dante well personally, but I know his fiance and many of his friends. I know that this harassment has continued and this latest flaunting demonstration that he continues to believe his cruelty is beyond reproach simply blasted through my own personal threshold for sadists and I had to raise the subject.

BA,

I never knew what happened to Franco, but based on comments from those who did know, I figured it was something truly tragic. While I was a vehement opponent of Franco in game, it galled me to see disparaging or disrespectful comments made following his departure. I would hope that Groznia would realize the real life distress caused by his continued actions. Barring that, I hope the mods can come to a reasonable and workable solution to rectify this type of abhorrent behavior.

-Penn

Just to keep this from getting out of control, locked pending admin decision.

Dealt with.

Not sure what was done, but for what it's worth, thank you.

I really don't have anything else to say. Many know what he put me through.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Please the Moderators, Groznia is being unfairly attacked for something the Moderators and NationStates should not be involved in whatsoever!

I remember the original incident quite well because many defenders came to me (being a calmer head) asking about Groznia and trying to get him to stop his VERBAL attacks on Dante. I also remember that not one of the words he typed ever appeared on any medium having and direct connection to NationStates, these OFFICIAL forums, or in any game run TM's. Quite simply, there is simply no basis for Moderator action in this Motto question because the events that gave rise to it had no basis in the Game or on these forums. I hereby challenge the Moderators and opportunistic defenders here to provide a single shred of verifiable evidence that Groznia ever said anything derogatory about friend Dante within the auspices of NationStates. Without that evidence (and it does not exist), then the Moderators are censoring people for their activities outside of this game. The Moderators are, of couse, the final authority of this cyberworld and if they choose this path that is their prerogative. Let's be absolutely clear about what they are doing, they are censoring people for things unrelated to their official domain.

That is my first general denial and repudiation of the Moderator decision to forcibly censor my friend Groznia. Now I will address all of the accusations against him specifically.

Pope Hope said in post #1:
"Groznia, someone who harassed through telegram and private message the real life fiance and friends of Dante when he was in a coma, not to mention after he died, has placed a message about Dante in his motto simply to upset the players that knew him."

This is slight of hand at best. PH, I've already invited you to turn over any verifiable proof you may have about anything Groz may have said to Dante et al. that occured INSIDE THE GAME. You and I both know that "Private Message" refers to informal regional forums which are not part of the official game, and that the Moderation team here has absolutely no control over those forums. So, again, let's just be absolutely clear that there is no evidence inside the game upon which the Moderation team can rest any action against Groznia. The word 'telegram' appears to imply that there is some evidence of in game activity. At this point that is a mere naked allegation, if it can be supported haul some FACTS out and offer them up.

PH continued
Nation: Hongus

Motto: "Alas poor Dante, I knew him well."

A Shakespeare quotation, and not on its face offensive to anyone. In the context of offsite material maybe it is, but remember that is the point: the Mod team is making in game decisions based on out of game info. Well, if we are pulling out of game info into play, then I will play the same game. If memory serves, Groznia did indeed post a public apology for anything he may have said in reference to Dante on the Rejected Realms board. He also said this in a Messenger conversation we had about this issue and asked me to post his words here:

Groznia's response to this unfortunate matter:
Comrade Groznia says:
Greetings Defenders, It seems a little thing I did was taken the wrong way. Have any of you heard of Hamlet by Shakespeare.
Comrade Groznia says:
In one line Hamlet mourns the deceased jester Yorrick
Comrade Groznia says:
the line goes "Alas poor Yorrick, I knew him well."
Comrade Groznia says:
Its clear that your feelings towards me have pushed you to the belief that I'm constantly out to eat your children
Comrade Groznia says:
this is not the case and it never has been, you misunderstand me.


To continue with my defense,

PH #1 again:
Now while this may not be clearly be a violation of the TOS, he is doing it directly to harass players who had a friend DIE that played this game, and he is mocking the fact that this player DIED.

Indeed you are right PH, Groznia never did violate the TOS. I especially like the emphasis on death twice in all capital letters. Since when does the severity of actions outside the game affect moderation inside the game. I invite you here to take a NS vacation in the region of Isreal and hear the hatred and vitriol spewed forth by Neo-Nazis flamebaiting the Sons of David there. Yet, PH's ADN has defended Neo-Nazi regions INSIDE THE GAME. So far as I can tell the PH's logic here, the Neo-Nazis should be allowed to continue their game legal harassment of players based on the death of over three million while Groznia should be punished for a message not inflamatory on its face that deals with the unfortunate demise of just one person. This is weak reasoning at best. I sincerely hope the Moderation team only followed it because they mistook the earlier words and thought Groznia said something within the game.

finishing PH#1:
"I think this is utterly despicable and ask you to please consider making him remove the motto. This person sent messages to Dante's fiance and others talking about how Dante would be burning in hell, and as I understand it nothing could be done or was done at the time.

The line has to be drawn somewhere."

Pope Hope and I completely agree. The line has to be drawn somewhere. It has been drawn. Say anything clearly offensive INSIDE the game and face Moderator action. Groznia's motto is clearly not offensive INSIDE the game and on it's face (unless of course you find Shaekespeare offensive). The context that may or may not make it offensive occurs outside the game and is subject to interpretation by extremely biased persons. The line was already drawn and and has not been transgressed.

As to anything Groznia may have said at the time of the unfortunate incident, if it was said within the auspices of this game, I challenge you to provide verifiable proof of such evidence. Without it, the Moderators are clearly and unequivocally suppressing an individual in the game unfairly for coments outside their realm of control.

IN regards to Jjuulliiaann, Antanoa, Gasponia, and Kandarin in posts #2-6:

See the above discussion. I'm quite certain that you all feel perfectly comfortable with the Moderators being inconsistent when it favors your desire of the day. I'm also certain that many players will feel equally disturbed that our Moderation team takes malicious and censorious action directed at one player based on a benign motto and then sits idly by when huge groups of other players spread their messages of hate directly.

As a matter of fact, let's examine these same spreaders of hatred. I invite all here to take a gander at the region "Columbine", yes as in the place of the massacre. The region glories in the juvenile horror that occured in the real life place. They are unbelieveably abusive on the RMB and many nation names and mottos are offensive on their face. Our supposed villian Groznia recently tried to invade the regions within the rules of the game simply because he found it personally offensive. I have little doubt that the very same people clamoring to censor Groznia here would defend such a region claimin that these Columbine fanatics have the right to their hatred to be free from invasion. Yet, Groznia's right has no such protection. These pathetic Columbine residents vomit vitriol and foul language all day everyday and are protected. Groznia posts a Shaekesperian epitaph in honor of a player he once wronged outside the game and when under stress and is gagged immediately. I, for one, cannot grasp the mental gymnastics necessary to hold these massively inconsistent views.

In regard to Thel DRan (post #10)

As usual, I find Thel DRan to be a most sincere and kindly person. I'm sorry we have had so little chance to talk prior to this as you seem quite a wonderful person to know. The unfortunate part of Thel Dran's wonderful compassion is that it blinds him to the necessity of rules being evenly applied. As said before and reiterated now, the line has been drawn and Groznia clearly did not step over it within the auspices of NationStates. A fairly large part of the NS community Thel Dran discusses eloquently meets outsite the game in private forums and it is ludicrous to expect the Moderators to police actions that happen outside the scope of their control. The logical consequence of the Moderators agreeing to do so is that all I have to do to get Moderator action is show them a post (possibly doctored) from any old website or forum and then claim that this background makes what the victim says inside the game "offensive" and a swift Moderator reaction will be forthcoming. Not a good precedent.

In response to Goobergunchia (#11):

You bring up the rule that griefing is "playing with the primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people." Primary aim is a question of intent, and in this case malicious intent. The world of NS has closed boundaries, so again, I invite any evidence from the official world of NS that will show Groznia's intent. In the case of the despicable Neo-Nazis and Columbines mentioned above, their intent is relatively obvious from within the game. The intent you ascribe to Groznia can only be imputed from sources outside the game and sources of unknown bias as well. The Moderation team can be certain that things said inside the game have not been doctored, but their is now way they can tell the truth of any evidence brought in from private and admittedly biased forums. (Please note, I am not accusing anyone of doctoring document nor of lying, merely pointing out that since there is no way to assure evidence from private forums is truthful that it has no place in Moderation decisions).

Next,
Monte Ozarka says in post #15:
"I must throw in my support with the good Pope Hope here. Although this may not be a clear-cut infraction of the rules, I ask Max and the moderators to look to common senses of decency. Just as harassment is not allowed because it is indecent and provocative, why should this type of motto be?

If this is not enough, I would request that the NS staff take a look at Groznia's history and maybe re-evaluate some things. After all, isn't the purpose of punishment to warn the offender to refrain from making similar wrongs in the future?"[emphasis mine]

Indeed, it is not an infraction of the rules. Nothing makes Groznia's motto offensive except maybe some forum discussions from long ago which he has already and repeatedly publicly apologized for. As to the good gentleman's comments regarding Groznia's past, maybe a little real life history is indicative. In Stalinist Russia the "bluecaps", or political police, developed a method for determining guilt. The first time they questioned a person they would whip them in and about the knees with chains so as to leave clear marks. When they picked someone up they would alway check the knees. If the person had chain marks he was automatically guilty because anyone questioned twice must be doing something wrong. You seem to be applying the same reasoning (without, of course, the physical torture)

Your assumption that punishment is necessarily rehabilitative is mere conjecture. It is surely up to the Moderation team to decide if their actions are intended to rehabilitate or to punish. As the massive failure of penal systems indicates, however rehabilitation is rarely accomplished with excercises of authoritarian power. Of, course that's just my counter-conjecture. I'm happy leave the purpose of Moderator action up to them.

In regard to Super Vegeta (post #20):
Stupid bugger. I'm sorry, but if you've got nothing better to do than antagonize people over their loved one's death, then you should be shot, hung, and pissed on, no questions asked.[empahsis mine]

I thank Super Vegeta for at least being honest enough to admit this is a nasty little personal grudge between the posters here and Groznia. I merely emphasized your words to point out that what you have just said certainly constitutes direct, frontal, and personal harassment INSIDE THE GAME. Although you never clearly mention Groznia by name, it is bluntly obvious to whom you are referring. While shot and hung are relatively mild insults, the crowning bit of personal nastiness is 'pissed on'. This message is obviously inflammatory, and caps it's harrasment in the final lines:

"Mocking the death of anyone, whether on a game or IRL, is disgusting. Grow up, dude, because some day you'll end up mocking the wrong person, and it'll come back to haunt you."

Haunt you, ehhh? Sounds about as harassing as anything Groznia ever said. Well, since we're in the mood for punishing people for OUT OF GAME comentary, why not let the defense bring in a little of their own. From our friendly Nasicornian web boards here (http://s2.invisionfree.com/nasicournia/index.php?showtopic=1459)

SuperVegeta says: "Yeah. Well, I stepped a bit closer to the #!@!$!@%!%@ line. *shrugs* It's an art.

Stupid bugger. Honestly, what fun can you have mocking someone over the death of a loved one? If this guy lived nearby, I'd be after him with my brother's baseball bats."

To which friend Unistrut replies: "According to my sources he lives in Central-Western Virginia. (wink smiley)"

There was some further snide commentary, in the same 'half in jest' vein. Half-jest or not, this background makes the harassing character of Super-Vegeta's words quite clear, and even carries the threat over to real life with baseball bats. If Groznia can be punished for things said off-site, then it seems quite logical to apply punishment to Super Vegeta as well. The line drawn in the rules, however, would evaluate their in game writing and conduct and leave both alone. The rule prior to today's hasty Moderation decision (likely based on a misunderstanding of the circumstances) makes infinitely more sense and doesn't require necessarily inconsistent judgements. If however the action against Groznia stands, then I would like to hereby file formal complaint against Super Vegeta for the EXACT SAME infraction as Groznia's. And if this is the case, I also hereby plead for a Moderator explanation if one is punished and the other is not.

I also tie this harassment of Groznia to Pope Hope's comments in post #24 labelling him as a sadist. "Sadist", "baseball bats", and discussions including RL home locations? Responsive or not, I'd have to say that this just about tilts the top of the harassment scale.

(PS-Check that link quick, I suspect our open friends in Nasicournia will quickly remove the information that shows they blithely toss about threats of RL beatings. For those who come along after they remove it, ask yourselves why they would remove it unless it makes them as guilty as well?)

In post #27 SalusaSecondus says:
Dealt with
Did the Moderation staff know at the time they dealt with this complaint that none of the supposedly abusive context that raises the complaint with the motto happened within the NS framework? If they are going to punish based on unspecified material with no certain knowledge as to its veracity that is not within the ambit of this game, then I for one sincerely hope I don't offend someone enough that they'll doctor up some forum pages that make me appear to be a jerk. For that's apparently all it would take to get Moderator action.

IN CONCLUSION, we are dealing with a complaint by those who are just as guilty of the exact same infraction that they accuse. They shade their complaint language so it is not clear to the Moderators that none of the barely alleged previous remarks ever occured within the framework of NationStates. And the inconsistent result is that while true villians are allowed to spread messages of vast hatred, this one person who had a conflict with one other and later apologized to those involved has been silenced by fiat. This result is obviously inconsistent with game rules, and would necessarily lead to punishments resulting from evidence which the Moderators could not certainly say is true or not.

THEREFORE, I have strongly counseled Groznia to change his motto back to what it was. Now that the Moderators can clearly see that none of this alleged harassment occured within the purview of the game, now that the obvious results have been shown, and now that the murkiness of the original complaint has been reduced I have most sincere hopes that the Moderation staff will make a more responsible decision.

IN THE ALTERNATIVE, if the Moderation staff continues with it's persecution of Groznia, I formally denounce and complain against Super Vegeta for the exact same crime of making posts offsite and on-site that are directly and maliciously inflamatory and designed to cause Groznia fear and emotional distress and ask that the nation whose name made such commentary be deleted as a warning to all that harassment will not be tolerated even if some of the evidence is derived from OFF GAME forums.


The Pirate of Pirates Roost

(Wheh, somebody have a nice beer? That was long-winded. Especially for something that was probably :headbang: )

yeah, first he apologises, then i end up in an MSN messenger chatroom with several invaders, and he starts mocking dante again, sorry, but i don't take his apologies seriously anymore.

also, you keep talking about rules, and boo hoo, how poor groznia is being wronged here. instead of thinking for one freaking moment how we feel about this continuing harassement!!
dfd here lost the man she loves, and i lost a very dear friend i spent hours and hours of chatting with, someone i started to see as family.
then to see how someone mocks with it, mocks with the pain, the sorrow of it. then apologises, and then just turns around and does it again?

BS!

this isn't about dumb rules, this is about moral decency, and about empathy. and if you had one bout of that in your body, you wouldn't spend your energy posting here whining about rules, but yelling at groznia for being such an insensitive bastard.

disclaimer: Not a mod, not likely to become one, just a guy who spends a fair amount of time reading the moderation forum.

a few things sticks out from reading your post.
none of us have any idea idea what proof the moderators may or may not have about what Groznia may or may not have said in telegrams or in any other form on nationstates, so it is possible they have evidence which we do not have access to.
Also the fact that SalusaSecondus said it was dealt with would suggest that the moderators have seen evidence in one form or another which is suitable grounds for taking action.
Thirdly imo it would be a very good idea if Groznia does not change his motto back, if he really feels that what has been done is unfair he can lodge a complaint in the correct manner. I've seen quite a few people try and make similar protests in this way and it never seems to go well.
If you feel the moderators have acted unfairly then i think it would be better to talk about it in a sensible way instead of making accusations you could simply ask them to review the decision they made.

Yet, PH's ADN has defended Neo-Nazi regions INSIDE THE GAME. So far as I can tell the PH's logic here, the Neo-Nazis should be allowed to continue their game legal harassment of players based on the death of over three million while Groznia should be punished for a message not inflamatory on its face that deals with the unfortunate demise of just one person.


PH is a defender. If a neo-nazi region is invaded she'll defend, regardless of the ideology of the natives and how much she might disagree with it. If you have a problem with neo-nazis discuss it with those neo-nazis or go to the mods.

For the rest, see CGs excellent post :)

Blaat

So... wait... let me get this straight, Pirates Roost... I'm trying to wrap my head around this: So, it's okay that Groznia mocked and taunted Dante off-site and as soon as he comes on-site and does it, it's okay because everything else he did was off-site? I'm sorry. That's the most insane POS I have ever heard in trying to defend someone on the NS forums.

There's another quote, if we want to play semantics Groznia may want to read for himself if he wants to try and defend himself in this situation: "Abandon all hope, you who enter." I doubt there's any way out of this one.

I'm not going to read that whole long post because as far as I am concerned the moderators have closed this issue. However, a few points:

--I, personally, had never spoken nor had any direct contact with Groznia until he telegrammed me today in regards to the impression I have of him. I have already explained why I was the one that decided to start this thread. If you want proof, which no, you have not asked me for (unless you telegrammed me in the last hour in which I was at class), and feel like putting DFD and CG through having to recap and re-read all of the past harassment by providing it here for you to read, you'll have to ask them.

--I briefly saw something in there about the ADN invading Neo-Nazi regions. That's simply not true. The ADN does not participate in invasions (the gameplay definition of invading, not the technical one, before Loop jumps in here to correct me), we participate in defenses. I can't say for certain if everyone would participate in the defense of a Nazi region, however.

--Goobergunchia clearly pointed out that Groznia's actions are a violation of the TOS. It was my mistake to think otherwise, and obviously Goob was right or no action would have been taken.

Finally...nothing will be removed from the Nasicournian forum. Firstly, if you had the right to complain to the NS mods about something said on an offsite forum, Groznia would have been DOS long ago for the things he has said on invader and defender forums alike. I'm sure CG has some interesting IM logs she could produce as well. I also don't blame the people who know what Groznia has put DFD through for feeling like a baseball bat could come in handy. Real life harassment in an online game about the death of a loved one is completely terrible. If it had been me, I would have called the real life authorities long ago.

I hereby challenge the Moderators and opportunistic defenders here to provide a single shred of verifiable evidence that Groznia ever said anything derogatory about friend Dante within the auspices of NationStates. Without that evidence (and it does not exist), then the Moderators are censoring people for their activities outside of this game.


I think this was the wrong day to challenge someone for proff. I happen to have comments saved that Groznia made publically within in the game on the Rejected Realms civil headquarters, which specifically call Dante a drunk and makes fun of a car accident he was in.

I think that classifies as your derogatory remarks within the "auspices of NationStates."

Defend Groznia all you want. The kid is wrong and none of your fancy speeches or supposed "truth" is going to change the facts. I don't care if you want to defend him, but he's wrong, and everyone knows it.

And think before you start chewing out my ass, because I'm on the edge here and I'm tired of this kid getting away with his crap because he takes everything off-site......oh.....that's very mature. But as smart as he thinks he is, he has slipped up.

And CG, thanks a ton, you said it excellent. I couldn't have said it any better. Thanks girl.

Though I do not have all of the information in front of me not readily accessible, I recall (and have notes) regarding Groznia's harassment IN NATIONSTATES of Der Furer Dysel to the point where should have have continued at all definitive action would have been taken by the moderation staff. This appeared to be a continuation of prior behavior. Should he restore his motto he will be deleted and possibly banned from the site permanently. I don't advise that he do so.

In reply only to SalusaSecondus:

Obviously the Mods rule, and I will suggest the motto change to Groznia (I do not speak as his representative, he may decide to do otherwise.).

Since this is the case, however, I respectfully ask what of my formal complaint against Super Vegeta who also in the game strongly suggested that another player (Groznia) be hung, shot and pissed upon?

I believe he actually made a general statement about what he feels the punishment should be for someone who antagonizes the loved ones of someone who has died. I don't see anything that says "Groznia should be hung, shot and pissed upon."

Obviously the Mods rule, and I will suggest the motto change to Groznia (I do not speak as his representative, he may decide to do otherwise.)

In other words, you're telling us all that neither of you really care much about the moderator ruling that was handed down here in this thread for all to see.

Alas poor Yorrick, I knew not him well.


I just figured I'd make that quick clarification... the "not well" meaning he knew him as a sickly man if I recall... so I dunno what anyone else wants to take the mis-quote as

I just figured I'd make that quick clarification... the "not well" meaning he knew him as a sickly man if I recall... so I dunno what anyone else wants to take the mis-quote as

[slight hijack]The original quotation is, "Alas, poor Yorick... I knew him, Horatio. A man of infinite jest....[/slight hijack]

Yes, I'm anal about it -- I'm just beginning to teach that unit again for the bazillionth time. ;)
~Kat the English Teacher.

The motto should definitely be removed. That's not funny; it's just disturbing.

Thanks Kat... *ish a chem teach... not english*

Kat, I absolutely love you! I was just about to correct it from memory, and I saw you had done it, it made me smile. :)

yeah, first he apologises, then i end up in an MSN messenger chatroom with several invaders, and he starts mocking dante again, sorry, but i don't take his apologies seriously anymore.

also, you keep talking about rules, and boo hoo, how poor groznia is being wronged here. instead of thinking for one freaking moment how we feel about this continuing harassement!!
dfd here lost the man she loves, and i lost a very dear friend i spent hours and hours of chatting with, someone i started to see as family.
then to see how someone mocks with it, mocks with the pain, the sorrow of it. then apologises, and then just turns around and does it again?

BS!

this isn't about dumb rules, this is about moral decency, and about empathy. and if you had one bout of that in your body, you wouldn't spend your energy posting here whining about rules, but yelling at groznia for being such an insensitive bastard.

Extremely well said CG. Pirates Roost, your defense of Groznia, while understandable if he is your friend or family, is sadly misplaced here.

I stand with Pope Hope, Crazygirl, Tuesday Heights, Goobergunchia and the rest and I say that if Groznia does flaunt the moderators ruling I truly hope he is deleted as that is the very least that he deserves.

As one who knows what that kind of grief looks and feels like, I will say that I am certain God has a special place for people who speak ill of those who have passed on for no other seeming purpose than the deliberate and malicious abuse and antagonism of those who have lost their loved one regardless of whether it was said in an online game or not.

May you never have to experience that kind of loss and then be subjected to the cruelity of the type inflicted by Groznia as I find nothing redeeming in his behavior and a lot that I can only call sick.

In various replies to all else who I thank for reading my comments agree or disagree:

In regard to CG:

I think perhaps you take my defense of Groznia to be an impugnment of those he has insulted. I grasp emotional loss very well, thank you, and don't appreciate the insinuation that I am either heartless or lacking in moral fibre. You presume to know me and attack and insult me personally. Please, some civility and restraint would be appreciated.

I sincerely appreciate that this is emotionally charged for a number of people involved. I also agree entirely that your complaint is, "moral decency, and about empathy." AND I FIRMLY, POSITIVELY, AND ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT NS GAME MODERATORS DICTATING WHAT IS MORALLY DECENT.

I put that in all caps in the hope that my intent in defending Groznia would be clear. Even within the little world of NS I had hoped the Mods would show restraint and choose to dismiss this issue. While I understand your feelings of pain, I believe that pain is a small price to pay to keep game moderators out of deciding what is moral or not in this reality I enjoy.

Instead SalusaSecondus desided to base his/her decision on harassment. I'm afraid that I still think this is mere cover for the same sort of anger you expressed openly. This is why i think nothing will happen to Super Vegeta even though there are threats of real life baseball bat beatings involved whereas Groznia only used words. Nasty words, but still, "sticks and stones..."

I think perhaps CG will take the last sentence as devaluing his/her pain. It was not intended as such and really not directed at your complaint. The last paragraph is the obvious result of a situation wherein the Mods start making decisions on moral decency. Is it morally decent to physically threaten to batter a person who slanders the dead? Just as with the root question about slandering the dead, I simply don't think the game moderators should weigh in over this issue. You are hurt and angered by his motto and therefore slung some nasty insinuations at me. I feel a little hurt by them since we've spoken nicely before, but I will never support muzzling you on anything you say. Not ever, no matter how meanspirited you may choose to become. This is the responsibility that allows freedom of speech to operate. And please no guff about private servers and the rest, I'm not refering to the First Amendment, but an ideal behind it that I will never be willing to breach no matter how much pain the hateful words may cause. It seems you would prefer civilty to freedom. That is your choice and since it's merely a matter of beliefs I don't claim mine is better than yours, only that I will represent and argue for my belief to the best of my ability. (And yes, I would argue for a Neo-Nazi's right to proclaim his hate even as I sat there loathing the person I argue for).

In reply to The Yi Ta:

Thank you for your wise words of advice, and calm cool head in an otherwise hot room. In fact, apparently the Moderators do have evidence that was not previously discussed. I have yet to see any of it, but I will not challenge a Moderator to haul out evidence as I do with the biased complainants (not being mean, I'm biased too). As for motto changes, I'm sure prudence would dictate that you are correct. As for me, I've grown so tired of Moderator intervention and defenders acting like overstuffed hall-monitors whining about every little infraction that I would almost welcome being deleted from the game. The level of immaturity has grown annoying. Groz says some immature things one night, now the equally immature are getting their revenge via censorship. I think my grandpappy would have made the best Mod ever, he probably would have clouted Groz and the head and told him to stop messing with other people--then he would have grabbed all these children (overgrown or not) who make about 500 complaints a month for Mod intervention and told them that he hated tattletales and next time they came running he punish the wrongdoer AND give them a swat in the behind for tattling and wasting his time. Yeah, gramps could done the job in his sleep.

In regards to Blaatschapen (post #32):

"PH is a defender. If a neo-nazi region is invaded she'll defend, regardless of the ideology of the natives and how much she might disagree with it. If you have a problem with neo-nazis discuss it with those neo-nazis or go to the mods.

Thank you for illustrating my point perfectly. As far as I can see PH is forthrightly for freedom and specifically freedom of speech except where that speach concerns him/her and a small coterie of friends. Since this has occured she has directly asked for censorship. Regardless of idealogy or whether I agree with Groznia or not, I will not now nor ever support muzzling him, you, Pope Hope, or anyone else.

In regards to Tuesday Heights (post #33):

"So... wait... let me get this straight, Pirates Roost... I'm trying to wrap my head around this: So, it's okay that Groznia mocked and taunted Dante off-site and as soon as he comes on-site and does it, it's okay because everything else he did was off-site? I'm sorry. That's the most insane POS I have ever heard in trying to defend someone on the NS forums."

Friend Tuesday, in what way shape or form was Groznia's motto taken by itself taunting or harassing? Undeniable answer, by itself the motto could not be taunting or harassing. By themselves few utterances as short as a sentance can be taunting or harassing. It is all about the context behind the motto. The motto itself is rather meaningless, it is only if put into context by the off-game comments that it could be reasonably said to be ongoing offensive conduct. To my knowledge the Mods never before made rulings based on out of game utterances. To say the motto is offensive to the point of harassment would require relying on the out of game utterances because the motto by itself is not offensive.

Now, of course, the Moderation team and others assert there is evidence of in game utterances that give the harassing context to the motto. I doubt it, and Imma grumblin' because I think that this is really a form of moral censorship in disguise, but I still have enough respect to keep my grumbling under my breath and I will not have the presumption to ask the Moderators for evidence. If they answered it would set a bad precedent of them feeling obligated to explain themselves, that would not be a good thing in my opinion. I will not ask them for it, but not because I don't want to see it (I will ask others who claim such evidence exists later down).

And finally, as for abandoning all hope, you're talking to a raider friend Tuesday. I'm well aware that as soon as the Mods get involved my chances of success approach the infinitesimal point of zero. Winning a round would be nice, but I argue for the record. When my books are balanced in NS or RL it will be obvious I fought for some lost causes, by the ideals I fight for will be consistent as the days is long my friend.

As regards Pope Hope (post #34)

No reason you should read the whole post, I just find it easier to reply to everyone in one long post than clutter a bunch of small ones. Matter of form only.

RE: Asking for proof. I think you misunderstood me. I never asked you personally for proof, I made and open and public challenge to provide it. You have denied or refused my challenge. Okay. You're prerogative and I respect your reasons, but it still does leave the problem that I and any other non-Moderator here do not have any reason to believe that Groznia ever said anything nasty in Game.

RE: Defending Nazi regions. This is not the place to get into "invader" "defender" definition games. So, for the purposes of this thread only I'll use 'defense of Nazi regions' to alleviate the concern. The ADN has in the past 'defended' Nazi regions. You support their right to be free, and presumably their freedom of speech. Yet, you wish to (and have likely succeeded in) censoring Groznia for his offensive speech. Unlike Moderators, the ADN is an avowedly moralistic organization purporting to stand forthrightly for freedom, and yet it's Director (I still think you should have gone for Il Supremo, it has more panache) is asking for the censorship of another player. The only way this is internally consistent is if the ADN is not morally in favor of freedom of speech. If the 'liberator' ADN is not in favor of the most basic freedom, what is the point? Freedom to choose delegates freely?

RE: "Goobergunchia clearly pointed out that Groznia's actions are a violation of the TOS. It was my mistake to think otherwise, and obviously Goob was right or no action would have been taken." Very cute, but Moderators just like judges in RL make mistakes and misinterpret the rules. Let us not forget that the US Supreme Court made many rulings supporting segregation laws before the 1960's. Just because the highest court in the land ruled does not mean their ruling was right for all those years before reform. The moral dillema I brought up throughout and above will not go away just because the Mods ruled on it. Either you are for freedom of speech completely, or favor limiting that freedom to promote civility.

"Finally...nothing will be removed from the Nasicournian forum. Firstly, if you had the right to complain to the NS mods about something said on an offsite forum, Groznia would have been DOS long ago for the things he has said on invader and defender forums alike. I'm sure CG has some interesting IM logs she could produce as well."

I'm impressed and pleased. Just because I think you have an inconsistent moral dillemma above, doesn't mean I can't give credit where it is due.

"I also don't blame the people who know what Groznia has put DFD through for feeling like a baseball bat could come in handy. Real life harassment in an online game about the death of a loved one is completely terrible. If it had been me, I would have called the real life authorities long ago."

I don't necessarily blame them either. As a mildly interesting side note and largely unrelated to my arguement, calling the authorities would have accomplished nothing unless Groznia at any point made a specific threat of actual physical violence to another person (I don't know if he did or not). The crime of harassment requires actual physical acts furthering the harassment, mere words alone are not sufficient for a conviction. The civil tort of Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress (IIED) might be able to be shown weakly based on words alone, but would require intent towards the actual victim distressed, and such a case would most likely fail here because of the use of screen names. IIED tends to require that you know the victim personally (in RL). The interesting part is that most civil tort lawyers would probably say Groznia has a decent case against Super Vegeta and Unistrut for Assault. There was the threat of baseball bats followed by the furthering act of identifying Groznia's residence. Threat+furthering act=Assault if Groznia claims that thes made him fear for his personal safety. Assault is a general intent crime, unlike IIED, so personal knowledge is unnecessary. I think you know I'm a law student and this is not bs. IT IS ALSO NOT INTENDED TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE ARGUMENT AT HAND. Matter of fact I don't think IIED and Harassment laws make all that much sense. Either they should include threat by word or be chunked all together.

In regard to DFD (various posts):
First let me offer my condolences on your loss. I never knew Dante, but he must have been a heck of a person to make so many fine people so anxious to protect you and his memory. I can only guess at the loss you must feel.

If you have the proof I would like to see it. If that would be distressful to you then I absolutely do not want you to to provide it to me. If the proof exists I'm sure someone else to whom it would be less of a strain can provide it to me in a format where it does not have to be flaunted to you. I'm quite serious. You have plenty of friends here. If providing it is going to affect you, let them take care of it and stop reading any of my comments immediately. I have no interest in impugning Dante or making you uncomfortable. I make the argument because I believe fundamentally in freedom in all things including speech. That first paragraph was sincere and I do feel for you and do not want to hurt you further. If this is going to upset you, turn off this forum and let your friends do the job for you (they're doing pretty well as it is). Okay? It's impossible online to make you aware of how serious I am about this, but if repetition can do it...seriously, if showing that stuff is going to bother you, I'd really prefer not to see it.

Tell you what, I like to think I'm a man of honor, so if you promise me that you have the proof and it's better than copy and paste and could be time stamped or google cached back so as to be verifiable, I'll take your promise as the thing itself and say I was incorrect and that Groznia should indeed have been clipped by the game rules. Again I am terribly serious. I would much rather have your word of honor if going into sordid details will upset you. Really, I am not joking even a little bit.

and as for,
[quote]And think before you start chewing out my ass,

I wouldn't dare think of it under these circumstances. I may be a raider, but I have honor. That sense of honor is the only reason I'm arguing over such a distasteful subject.

Finally, in regard to PH (post#38) referring to my complaint against Super vegeta:
I believe he actually made a general statement about what he feels the punishment should be for someone who antagonizes the loved ones of someone who has died. I don't see anything that says "Groznia should be hung, shot and pissed upon."

LOL PH. No you're using my argument in your own defense. He specifically said the harassing opinion, it was directed at Groznia in a thread about Groznia, and your own forum clearly shows it was backed up by unmistakeable threats. Still, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

And to Kat regarding quotation help:

Thanks for the lesson, it has been a decade or more since I last read or saw Hamlet (I always liked the comedies better).

To everyone else, this is getting a little tiring. Being only one person makes it difficult to respond to the many of you properly (four posts just while writing this). I also think this has likely passed out of the ambit of the Moderation thread. I'll still keep up here (and publish my repudiation as per my agreement with DFD if necessary) and would appreciate comment on the counter-complaint I lodged, but won't try to keep up with all anymore. Is still welcome any comment, no matter how...er...passionate and can be reached at:

pirates_roost@hotmail.com

for e-mail or MSN messenger comment.

Thanks all for reading such an insanely long post.

The Pirate of Pirates Roost

Two clarifications:
1) We understand that people can become emotionally heated and say things that they regret. Yes several things said by other people in this thread went too far, and if they do similar things, actions will be taken.
2) We only punish actions committed on our site. That motto was harassment that was committed on our site and therefore falls under our jurisdiction. I am operating from a combination of internal and external evidence.

More still...

Tuesday Heights:
In other words, you're telling us all that neither of you really care much about the moderator ruling that was handed down here in this thread for all to see.

No I said I would suggest to Groznia that he change his motto to comport with Salusa Secondus' ruling because I am not Groznia and he is not my slave or under my military discipline in real life. He is an independent person and there is little more that I can do than make suggestions to him unless I'm willing to seek him out in real life and physically force him to do my will and then serve the inevitable jail time that would result.

And further I only respect Moderator rulings in so far as they are the final authority in the game. They are human and can make mistakes the same as the members of the Supreme Court or any other authority ever devised on this planet. In this scenario I think they have made a serious error and will not demur to them just because they have a title and game coding keys. As many have said, free speech is not gauranteed here. If civilly disagreeing with a Moderator decision and questioning its motives is a punishable offense, I'm sure the punishment will be forthcoming. My bet is that the Mods don't care overmuch if I disagree with them.

Since Salusa Secondus' reply came out while I was typing the message to Tuesday Heights, please allow me leave to amend.

I respect only the power of a Moderation on general principle. I appreciate competence and responsiveness in all people regardless of their jobs, and repsect it even more if those people are volunteers.

Great...now I sound like I'm kissing heiney.

The short version is that i don't respect a Mod just because he or she is a Mod. I do respect Mods who for the quality of job they do.

Pirates Roost, you're a Barracks Box lawyer and you have zero idea what its like to lose anyone then be taunted about it. This crosses the line and you're flexing your pre law muscles for the sake of doing so.

To quote Cog, "Think about it." I don't think you are. Take that as you will and no doubt you'll have an agonizingly long rebuttal for me. I care little.

You don't speak evil of the dead. It's even more reprehensible to torture their widows.

Pirates Roost, you're a Barracks Box lawyer and you have zero idea what its like to lose anyone then be taunted about it. This crosses the line and you're flexing your pre law muscles for the sake of doing so.

To quote Cog, "Think about it." I don't think you are. Take that as you will and no doubt you'll have an agonizingly long rebuttal for me. I care little.

You don't speak evil of the dead. It's even more reprehensible to torture their widows.

Regardless of the reason he was attempting to throw legal jargon around, let me clarify something (as a non-moderator): On this site you have only the rights and abilities as allowed by Max and his appointed moderators. Regardless of whether you feel it's legal or not, or even right for the Mods to make "moral" decisions - every time you log in to your nation, you are accepting that Max and his appointed subordinates have the right to determine what is and isn't allowed.

Neither legal jargon, nor wanna-be lawyer arguments, have any place in this discussion.

Pirate: Salusa has proof, and he's the only one that needs it.

In regards to SV, as I said, he was making a general comment about people that behave in the way Groznia has. He tends to be more open with his emotions in that regard than I am, although I subscribe to the same type of sentiment. Even if I didn't know DDR I'd think Groznia needed some help or to be turned in.

I strongly make a differentiation between in-game actions and RL attacks. I would stick up for any player should this type of thing happen to them, and have even in a time when I wasn't supposed to let on what had actually happened to the player. I don't discriminate OOC people based on IC actions, as many an invader will tell you.

There is a line to be drawn on free speech in this game, and continued harassment of a death of your fiance or good friend is far past the line of even questionable behavior.

Nuetered Sputniks,

Thank you very much. That's the point I was trying to make about respecting Moderators--I respect that I agree to their final arbitration when I play the game. I make my arguments for the record I keep with myself, others are welcome to listen or not.

IronChefsOccupiedFrance,

I have been extremely careful not to toss about personal insults while being barraged with them. I think that says something about my character friend. You presume to know me and my personal experience with losing loved ones? Well, regardless, you've offered your opinion on my argument and everyone is welcome to their opinions.

There is a line to be drawn on free speech in this game

And there's the nub of it all. I disagree that free speech should ever be infringed (even in extreme cases like this). Obviously the game and its gaurdians will do as they will.

I just thought it was important that somebody stand up for Groz and say something against the growing double standard (SV was definitely talking specifically about Groz as you know perfectly well). I agree with you that decency ought to prohibit people from saying the sorts of meanspirited things Groz and Super Vegeta have said.

It is one thing to suggest someone behave respectably, and quite another thing to censor them when they don't. If you're in favor of censorship to promote civility that's your creed, and it's just as vaid as mine. But I do hear quite a bit of rhetoric from your organization about dedication to freedom. I'll shut up, I probably made my point and and squared myself with my own conscience a long time back. I'm getting tired.

SV may have been prompted to say what he did, but after knowing him for two years I know perfectly well that he feels that way about people who treat others that poorly and he meant it the way he said it.

There's no "rhetoric" involved...in game we're all about freedom, of course. We all draw that line at out of character harassment. I understand believing in free speech, but if saying things repeatedly and going out of your way to do so is something that could be a breaking of even RL law, I doubt it's going to fly here either.

Mind you, if you have been watching that thread on the Nasi forum, both New Cimmeria and Anstan are invaders themselves, and they see it as wrong as well. It's not about in-game loyalties, it's about human decency and respect for the grief of others as well.

it was suggested. time and time again.
if someone would actually beat someone up with a baseball bat, for no reason, you'd get mad.
if someone taunts someone over the death of a loved one, it should be alright, freedom of speech?

this crosses the lines of freedom of speech. it is one thing to have an opinion, another to inflict pain on someone intentionally. and i assure you, mental pain can be as bad, if not worse, as physical pain.

as for proof inside the game, i have done some digging, and found a telegram groznia sent:

The Armed Republic of Groznia Forever
Received: 2 days ago
He was shot? Amazing. Who shot him I would love to shake their hand for a job well done.

<snips>
I just thought it was important that somebody stand up for Groz and say something against the growing double standard (SV was definitely talking specifically about Groz as you know perfectly well).

Emphasis mine. Now, am I missing something here, or does it seem Pirates Roost is putting in a lot of effort and arguing awfully hard for someone who is perfectly capable of standing up for himself, innocent of said charges or no?

Yeah, it's late, but hey. Call 'em as I see 'em. And what I see here just isn't adding up. Maybe it's lack of sleep. Who knows.

BTW: I despise rules lawyers and folks who try to play the system to get around the sorts of broad rules a site like this has to have for their own private amusement or filling up their quota of self-satisfied smugness at having 'gotten one over' on the mods or others - usually while pointing the finger at others and screaming injustice whenever it suits them. Whether or not that is the case here, I leave to those who have more info than I. Just a statement. We see it all too often, after all.

Congrats all you've done it. You insulted me so much I just don't care anymore.

PH, thanks for being the only one who held your tongue. We disagree, but we can at least have a discussion without snide insults.

CG, thanks for offering the proof. I don't really believe it without some way to verify like a cache or something, but thank you for putting in the effort.

As to why I defend Groz. He's my friend, that's what you do for friends even if they're wrong.

And since many people here have been giving me advice, I'll return the favor and tell you one a wise old man told me: Lots of times in life people are going to disagree with you on things you care deeply about. The louder you get, the less they'll listen.

I may come back and look at this tomorrow, but for the moment I'm going to exercise my inherent freedom to change the channel when I don't like what's on.

Pirates Roost, please stop acting or whatever it is you are doing. Yes, I am extremely hurt and harbor lots of unforgiveable hatred toward Groznia for the past he has done. I can't take a serious apology from a kid who has not even realized the full potential of the damage he has done; from a kid who consistently repeats acts of mockery, apologizes, and recommits them.

You are defending a kid who made a joke about me committing suicide. The moderators here are not deciding what is morally decent; they are taken care of a situation that has long since been going on where Groznia has managed to unfairly slip out of the trouble somehow. The thread exists for a reason........if anyone has the right to judge was in "morally decent" in this game, it is the players. All of the players here have shown you directly that they believe this is "morally indecent." The general public has spoken; you have yourself an answer. No one can decide what is truly "morally decent" in one person's eyes, but society and overall population does have to the right to draw the line and condemn where they believe is necessary.......it's the only way to keep society and individuals under control. It is the laws and making of society.......something you can never run. Remember "the greater good for the most amount of people."

Reread CG's post again Pirates Roost. You see that she clearly has directed the post to Groznia. Unless you are Groznia, which who knows, maybe you are, then there was no direct insinuation or attack on you. Someone must be really guilty to jump to conclusions so hastily.

I accept your condolences, although they mean absolutely nothing to me. If you had meant your sincerities, you would have made it a point to telegram me with them rather then publically posting them for which reasons, I do not know. Maybe you hope that it will make you look like the good guy; who knows, I am not about to jump to conclusions.

Also, Pirates Roost...... "And there's the nub of it all. I disagree that free speech should ever be infringed (even in extreme cases like this)." Obviously you have never taken a sociology course; none of us are truly free. The making of a society prohibits the existence of true freedom in any form. Being raised to believe that your society, it's beliefs, and its moral standards are correct, you cannot truly be free when your mind is so baised. Furthermore, society states that there is no true freedom......no true democracy. Therefore, this game has every right to judge what is "morally decent" and has the right to put limitations on the "freedom of speech." When you joined this game, you acknowledged and even accepted that the moderators and owners of this game have complete control over this site. The rules of material posted on this site are rules just like any society......and just like any society, rules can change throughout the length of time. If the words do not state clearly and precisely that what Groznia has done, then the game and the moderators have that right to question his conduct and judge his behavior. That is how NS was always run, no one changed a thing about it......did you support Marathon and the others who were deleted in like manners when they crossed the lines and broke the rules?

Now, to continue back onto the lines that Groznia is wrong. First off, bringing back where Groznia joked about me committing suicide. That is considered threatening. "Joking" that a seriously depressed person "should commit suicide" is threatening to the person. The person who is depressed feels inadequate and feels that because someone thinks they should commit suicide that their life is not worth living and are tempted to eradicate themself. You threaten and tempt a person in RL to end their life by "joking" about it. And honestly, I do not think Groznia was just "joking" about that one. The kids has serious issues with seperating RL from in game. It has gotten him in trouble before, but it was never persued, until he never got the hint to stop.

If it was my choice on the course of action that is to be taken, Groznia would not be able to utter Dante's name or my own in any fashion or speak of our situations at all. Now, it's not my choice............no, it is the moderators choice. If you have a problem with the moderators then quit the game. They were entrusted to fulfil their duties appropriately; they were not given their power because they could count how many rabbit turds were in a pile of crap. And the fact that you are disagreeing, without stating precisely that you disagree, with well known dedicated moderators who have been involved and protecting nations in this game long before you join and have been trusted to take care of business of the game, shows that you do not respect them as they should. You "claim" you respect them, but in all your posts you constantly bring up their decision. This shows that you are contradicting their ruling and disagree. I do believe the moderators deserve more respect then to have their decisions disagreed on when they have evidence to support their claims.

Also, back to Groznia, what kind of person wishes that a dying man should die, makes fun of the man, and writes posts off-site because he's too chicken to do it on NS about a dying man burning in hell? I think you better do yourself a favor and just drop your arguement. You have no real argument being that we have actual evidence in NS to support our claims. It is not like you are his lawyer and being paid to do this, so I would think it best for you to just back away now before anymore damage is done.

You are trying to act like some sort of superior marytr or something. Groznia was wrong; the people and moderators of NS has decided so. Admit he was wrong and drop it. Your keep bringing up irrelevent arguments. Trying to defend his case is like trying to defend a man who the police watched cold bloodedly killed another person.

I'm so tired of this kid getting away and making fun of Dante. He's gone and can't defend himself anymore......so the little kid does subtle mockeries to torture us even more. Groznia knew nothing about Dante.......how can he claim to know him well? Groznia stabbed the man when he was alive in the back and claims to know him well.

I hate people like this. The emotional anguish of another person means nothing to you does it? Because you keep claiming it does yet constantly defend this wrong man right in front of our faces. I'm not giving you any proof because you do not need proof; only the moderators need the proof.

Do me a favor; if you truly believe a word you claim about "understanding" our grief and anguish, do not post in this thread again. You siding with a wronged kid hurts us a lot. You pretend to understand but you do not. Your words mean nothing to us; all your actions prove otherwise. You claim to be sorry; claim this and that, but you sit here in front of our faces and quote are statements and throw them back in our faces. And you keep defending someone who has evidence to support he is wrong. If you mean an ounce of what you said, you would back away now.

Congrats all you've done it. You insulted me so much I just don't care anymore. Oh thank you! Insult! Now you know the feeling. For months we have felt insulting by Groznia and his actions; it's about time you start to feel an ounce of what we have felt.



As to why I defend Groz. He's my friend, that's what you do for friends even if they're wrong. Not always true. Friends need to show other friends their mistakes. A true friend would address a friends flaws rather then bite their tongue and support them blindly.

*scratches head* I'm afraid, I don't really get the riot over this.

*scratches head* I'm afraid, I don't really get the riot over this.

It seems trivial to you because you did not know Dante or the situation that Groznia has done. He constantly mocked and defouled Dante before death and after death.

And not only that, he does it around those who loved and cared about Dante. He hurts their feelings so much.

DFD, I sympathise with your situation. I never did know Dante, but we in The Heartland as recently as February 2005 lost one of our own (to a car accident). To hear these things being said, and to see them done, is horrible. To all those defending "free speech" - as has been said, your "free speech" here is zero.

In my opinion, the person who insulted the dead and dying should be punished in the same way as they thought Dante should.

In essence, what is being argued here is that a hypothetical player, fully cognizant that s/he is breaking the rules of a site and will be acted against, and who continues it with members of a community through other avenues, should not be censured by their peers and by the authorities of the site on which some of the harassment has occured.

If someone is harassing another person at their place of business and are told to stop -- do the authorities look the other way if it continues via phone calls, harassing mails, vandalism to property etc.? I think not.

Note that nothing has been done by moderators regarding off-site actions (though personally I would heartily recommend the persons affected contact the instant messenger services, admins of other boards, ISP(s), e-mail providers, and any other services used by this individual to launch this harassment campaign and showing proof of it). The motto was judged to be a continuance of harassment already noted on our site; it's been ruled it must be changed. No deletion, no banning, just "change it." An appropriate action.

Regarding free speech: the argument about the rights of free speech have long raged here, and has often been answered as Neutered Sputniks and others have answered it above. I would like to also provide an analogy.

NationStates is a community, much in the same way a bowling league or photography club is a community. We all meet here with varying degrees of regularity. We don't always agree, but for the most part, disagreements are short-lived and we go back to enjoying ourselves, although sometimes the 'community center director' and 'staff' need to intervene.

When someone enters the community center who continually harasses others, curses them, wishes them ill, shoves them, tries to sabotage their enjoyment of the community center, knocks over their chess game, et cetera, do you HONESTLY believe that in the real world, the friends of that person say, "Well, it is their freedom of speech...." and drop it? Do you believe that the people running the community center allow it to continue?

Harassment is not protected under freedom of speech any more than is screaming in a crowded public place, "OH MY GOD, HE HAS A GUN!!!!" without cause.

To all those defending "free speech" - as has been said, your "free speech" here is zero.
The fact that this conversation is still continuing disproves that statement, LE. Max has the right to censor anything that appears on this board, but he has limited himself and his representatives from 99.9% of censorship by the terms in the FAQ and TOS.

These forums enjoy extraordinary freedom of speech. Opposing minority or out-of-favor viewpoints have always been welcome here as long as they stayed civil. It really bugs me when somebody says that the 3 million posts on the forum were placed there because we didn't support freedom of speech.

LE, I know what you meant, and I'm not picking on you. That's just one of my hot buttons.

I don't understand your guy's argument. You say that groznia is mocking the death of an rl player is inhumane, but yet you talk about killing him. As pirate's roost says, Super Vegeta and Unistrut were naming locations of his address in the nasi cournian forum, and half joking about beating him with baseball bats. I also have certain information that says that defenders were seriously asking about his address so they could find him and kill him. I cannot confirm this with any actual proof, so you can choose to believe it or disbelieve it. Anyway, my point is is that some of you guys are no better then groznia. I would even go so far to say that you're even more sadistic. Earlier someone commented that groznia deserves to be pissed on and killed, well I say that some of you also deserve to be pissed on and killed.

not saying he should die or be killed, i don't even wish for him to feel this pain he is inflicting on us.

what i do wish, is for him to get professional help. he needs help to learn the difference between ingame and real life.

i have many enemies in this game, but i wouldn't wish them any harm in real life. some i even got to know a bit as good people who are a lot of fun to talk to, and some who have become friends.

wishing someone dies just because he is your enemy in some online game, shows you can't see the difference anymore between reality and fiction, and therefore, i hope he will get psychological help.

i don't want his apology. he apologised to us once before, and then just went on again. his word means nothing to me.

http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8813893&postcount=20Stupid bugger. I'm sorry, but if you've got nothing better to do than antagonize people over their loved one's death, then you should be shot, hung, and pissed on, no questions asked.

Mocking the death of anyone, whether on a game or IRL, is disgusting. Grow up, dude, because some day you'll end up mocking the wrong person, and it'll come back to haunt you.

SV

http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8824547&postcount=67
I don't understand your guy's argument. You say that groznia is mocking the death of an rl player is inhumane, but yet you talk about killing him. As pirate's roost says, Super Vegeta and Unistrut were naming locations of his address in the nasi cournian forum, and half joking about beating him with baseball bats. I also have certain information that says that defenders were seriously asking about his address so they could find him and kill him. I cannot confirm this with any actual proof, so you can choose to believe it or disbelieve it. Anyway, my point is is that some of you guys are no better then groznia. I would even go so far to say that you're even more sadistic. Earlier someone commented that groznia deserves to be pissed on and killed, well I say that some of you also deserve to be pissed on and killed.

"SuperVegeta" and "The Chereks": Violations of the "threatening" clause. iForumban - 2 weeks each.

iLock pending a clean sweep of this topic for any other rulebreaking comments.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

Sweep complete; no other threatening statements found. iUnlock. Carry on.

Remember to remain calm and civil. Rulebreaking does not justify rulebreaking.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

calm....you're a funny one, coggy

It seems trivial to you because you did not know Dante or the situation that Groznia has done. He constantly mocked and defouled Dante before death and after death.

And not only that, he does it around those who loved and cared about Dante. He hurts their feelings so much.

It doesn't only seem trivial to me, it is trivial to me. But well, you see, I couldn't care less. Though, you realize that you're just biting that guy's bait? He's provoking you with it and he's pretty successful with it. Why not just ignore him? Any discussion over it just pours oil into that guy's fire and he gets more and more attention (something he obviously lacks and seems to crave for (aka attention whore)).

And, sorry to say this, but how can something online hurt one's feelings? That's something I never understood. This isn't the real world.

As for threatening, lol, sorry, but that stuff is usually just funny. I dare anyone to really try it, rofl. They'd so get their butts owned. Uncreative people. That's not threatening, that's making an idiot out of themselves, those people are punished already, I mean, they have to live like that. Scary.

And, sorry to say this, but how can something online hurt one's feelings? That's something I never understood. This isn't the real world.So you wouldn't be hurt if you read a 'My point of view' comment in a newspaper, where a journalist expresses his delight and amusement over your mother, father, sister, brother, niece, grandmother and girlfriend dying in a 'Vaguely amusing and, overall speaking, considerably delightful way, even though some of them struggled in the emergency room for about, oh, five hours, suffering unbearable pain'?

... Impressive.

It doesn't only seem trivial to me, it is trivial to me. But well, you see, I couldn't care less. Though, you realize that you're just biting that guy's bait? He's provoking you with it and he's pretty successful with it. Why not just ignore him? Any discussion over it just pours oil into that guy's fire and he gets more and more attention (something he obviously lacks and seems to crave for (aka attention whore)).

This kid'sproblems are bigger than just attention seeking, i'm afraid. his understanding of real life and ingame is gone.

And, sorry to say this, but how can something online hurt one's feelings? That's something I never understood. This isn't the real world.

our friend's death is very real however, and hateful comments can hurt, even overthe internet. those comments are still very real, and so are our feelings.

As for threatening, lol, sorry, but that stuff is usually just funny. I dare anyone to really try it, rofl. They'd so get their butts owned. Uncreative people. That's not threatening, that's making an idiot out of themselves, those people are punished already, I mean, they have to live like that. Scary.

flaming. interesting.

Cogitation,

My opinion may not matter much, but at least in the end it was fair.


To everyone else,

I'm sure I said before that my arguments for Groznia were not, are not, and will never be an endorsement of his reprehensible comments. All I ever tried to argue is that if one person is going to be punished for harassing threats it should apply to all and that my personal motivation for arguing it was a hatred of censorship in any form and for any reason. And yes, I know NS rules allow censorship. That does not mean I have to like it or remain silent when it appeared that it was being applied unevenly.

As for sociology classes and the argument that societies need curbs on free speech I'll merely say that I'll take my science in four credit classes and my religion at a house of worship. I'd rather admit my beliefs straight out than try to decorate them with psuedo-science.

I believe there is never a good reason for censorship because once it is employed everyone will want to move that "line" for their own personal reasons. I believe that this will inevitably result in predjudicial censoring (it was fair today, but I don't trust tomorrow). And I believe that censorship is unnecessary because we all have the option to ignore offensive speech.

Can you repeat that for people not involved with the American education system?

Translation as I understood it: "What Groznia did stinks, but I don't believe in censorship. I don't condone his actions but I think that this represents a dangerous tendency to censor whenever we do not agree with someone. I think that if he is censored, everyone in fairness should be censored."

Point of fact, Pirates Roost: we DO punish all posters who make it their business to harass others on this site. Groznia is no martyr, nor should he be an exception.

Cogitation,

My opinion may not matter much, but at least in the end it was fair.


To everyone else,

I'm sure I said before that my arguments for Groznia were not, are not, and will never be an endorsement of his reprehensible comments. All I ever tried to argue is that if one person is going to be punished for harassing threats it should apply to all and that my personal motivation for arguing it was a hatred of censorship in any form and for any reason. And yes, I know NS rules allow censorship. That does not mean I have to like it or remain silent when it appeared that it was being applied unevenly.

As for sociology classes and the argument that societies need curbs on free speech I'll merely say that I'll take my science in four credit classes and my religion at a house of worship. I'd rather admit my beliefs straight out than try to decorate them with psuedo-science.

I believe there is never a good reason for censorship because once it is employed everyone will want to move that "line" for their own personal reasons. I believe that this will inevitably result in predjudicial censoring (it was fair today, but I don't trust tomorrow). And I believe that censorship is unnecessary because we all have the option to ignore offensive speech.


I am going to ask that you please stop talking in circles and contradicting yourself.

You claim that you do not believe in centorship, yet, you do not defend those who spoke up against Groznia. Follow through with your claims.

You used science and religion together.........that says enough.

You keep claiming that people should not be censored, but this entire site is not America. Furthermore, you are probably censoring yourself right now; carefully choosing what to say to see if it doesn't cross the lines. If it is what you believe, why not speak freely?

Translation as I understood it: "What Groznia did stinks, but I don't believe in censorship. I don't condone his actions but I think that this represents a dangerous tendency to censor whenever we do not agree with someone. I think that if he is censored, everyone in fairness should be censored."

Is there any real proof that this "Dante" fellow truly died? I seem to remember "Walten" "dying" before...

...and sorry if the proof's in this thread. I'm short on time as of now.

Is there any real proof that this "Dante" fellow truly died? I seem to remember "Walten" "dying" before...

...and sorry if the proof's in this thread. I'm short on time as of now.
I haven't checked for myself, but I presume that the sources are reliable.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder and Delegate of The Realm of Ambrosia

SB, this is twice you've insulted me by demanding proof. I'm really starting to get irritated. Keep your skepticism to yourself.

There were many people who have talked to him; many people who have made friends with. I am not about to throw his ashes in your face for further proof. I am entitled to keep some memories of him to myself.....I do not need to share everything with all of NS.

If you do not believe us, then fine, do not believe us, but please keep your skepticism to yourself.

A couple quick points and ripostes:

I did not know Dante at any point, but also presume the sources are reliable. I never asked for any proof like this at any point.

I absolutely and unhesitatingly DISAGREE with the Moderation teams decision to censor anyone, be it Groznia, SuperVegeta, or The Chereks. As I'm getting really tired of saying I COMPLETELY GRASP THAT THE GAME RULES ALLOW CENSORSHIP, BUT AM MORALLY OPPOSED TO IT. This means that I will always [politely] disagree with a Moderation decision to muzzle someone. I also made the complaint against SuperVegeta because if I can't have my moral position of no censorship, then I darn sure want that power to be used evenly and fairly. This is why I said in thanking the Mods, that 'at least it was fair'.

The line "I'll take my science in four credit classes and my religion at a house of worship" simply means that sociology is not a hard science. It's alleged conclusions cannot be proven in any empirical way. Since sociology is not a hard science, ideas based on its teachings are just beliefs. I know my belief about freedom of speech is a just a belief. Others here seem to think that their beliefs are somehow more 'right' based on sociology. I'm merel saying that a foundation based in sociology is no more empirically valuable than a foundation in the Talmud, or the Bible, or the Q'uran, or the Ninefold Path, or whatever your preference may be.

You keep claiming that people should not be censored, but this entire site is not America. Furthermore, you are probably censoring yourself right now; carefully choosing what to say to see if it doesn't cross the lines. If it is what you believe, why not speak freely?

Because I prefer to speak as rationally as possible. And because this is still a game. I got annoyed and short at some point back in this thread and did what any mature adult should do when tee-ed off at a game. I turned it off, had a beer and complained using bad words about others privately to my girlfriend. She appropriately said I was letting it get to me too much and told me to lay off the internet.

I am fundamentally opposed to censorship in any form, even those forms I agree to live with (like the censorship in the US where I live and on this game where I recreate). Being opposed to the tyrannical power to muzzle doesn't mean I really have anything to say that's worth muzzling. I try to be calm and polite (or, at least civil) for my own reasons. That's my choice. It is my choice, not something imposed upon me from some power on high. Groznia, SuperVegeta, and The Chereks don't have any choice (in motto, or for 2 weeks). That's why I disagree.

I'm no mod but, perhaps it might be time for a lock on this? Just a suggestion.

I did not know Dante at any point, but also presume the sources are reliable. I never asked for any proof like this at any point.

Yes, and thank you. Some people can be so heartless sometimes. Irritates me to no extent. Basking in other's RL pain seems to be a hobby to some people in NS.


Since sociology is not a hard science, ideas based on its teachings are just beliefs.

Yes, I understand. I will not argue it, but it must mean something if almost every college and university demand the students take it. And furthermore, the reference to religion is wrong. Religion is a sociological ideology. Religion directly relates to sociology.


Because I prefer to speak as rationally as possible. And because this is still a game. I got annoyed and short at some point back in this thread and did what any mature adult should do when tee-ed off at a game. I turned it off, had a beer and complained using bad words about others privately to my girlfriend. She appropriately said I was letting it get to me too much and told me to lay off the internet.

Ironically, I did something similiar. Except, I hate beer. Not the best tasting thing in the world, but I am rather fond of White Russians.


And the irony of it all is that we are going to argue each other despite it all.

I'm no mod but, perhaps it might be time for a lock on this? Just a suggestion.

I suggest the contrary. This thread has given me an oppurtunity to have a positive outlet to vent in. Since most of the time it has remained under control, I see no real reason to lock it.

It's a civil debate......just like a general forum thread topic. Well, somewhat civil being that threads in General aren't too civil sometimes.

Ah, but you see PR, they did have a choice. And they chose poorly. The forum ban is the consequence for said poor choice. That's not called 'censorship', that's choice and accountability, and being punished for a transgression by having posting priviledges temporarily denied.

Try looking at it from another angle, and see if you can't understand the difference there.

I'm merel saying that a foundation based in sociology is no more empirically valuable than a foundation in the Talmud, or the Bible, or the Q'uran, or the Ninefold Path, or whatever your preference may be.

its the eightfold path, sucka.

I'm no mod but, perhaps it might be time for a lock on this? Just a suggestion.I suggest the contrary. This thread has given me an oppurtunity to have a positive outlet to vent in. Since most of the time it has remained under control, I see no real reason to lock it.

It's a civil debate......just like a general forum thread topic. Well, somewhat civil being that threads in General aren't too civil sometimes.Yeah ... with at least two people forum-banned I'd say it has been " under control " ... ( I mean no thanks to those posters involved, of course. I'm just saying it has not been quite the paragon of rational action, has it ? ) ... I'd also hope I wouldn't have to remind you that This isn't General Forum though, is it ? Nor is this thread here just for you to " vent " in. There was a problem brought here, it was examined, and it was resolved by a Moderator. End of story, usually ...

I second the request for the lock, especially when we look back and see at the 27th post, way back before all this,Dealt with.

Groznia, someone who harassed through telegram and private message the real life fiance and friends of Dante when he was in a coma, not to mention after he died, has placed a message about Dante in his motto simply to upset the players that knew him.

Nation: Hongus

Motto: "Alas poor Dante, I knew him well."

Now while this may not be clearly be a violation of the TOS, he is doing it directly to harass players who had a friend DIE that played this game, and he is mocking the fact that this player DIED.

I think this is utterly despicable and ask you to please consider making him remove the motto. This person sent messages to Dante's fiance and others talking about how Dante would be burning in hell, and as I understand it nothing could be done or was done at the time.

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

this guy must be sick and if what youre saying is true he shuld be kicked out of ns emediatly

yes oh my god yes why did you even have to ask that

What was said is absoultely disgusting, whilst anybody can advocate freedom of speech and no censorship, this person clearly does not deserve to even be in the game. In my opinion, if the comment and situation was as it has been said to be, he (the author of the comment) should be ejected from the game. What was said and done by him is reprehensible, and no matter what my views or anyone's views on censorship he has hurt a lot of people through his actions and must be dealt firmly with.

I think what we're seeing here is a point where the freedom of speech is infringing upon common decency. Personally, I think that this situation regarding Groznia has been dealt with fairly, but I think that it's odd that he never posted here himself. I also applaud Pirates Roost for defending his friend to the extent he has. Whether or not his loyalty was misplaced is a completely different matter.

Enough.