NationStates Jolt Archive

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/frisbeeteria/split_sm.jpg from http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=302815

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Just so I'm clear on this whole thing.

If I was to use a script that made my nation region hop during the update to avoid being updated, would I be breaking an NS rule?

No accusations, just a question.

Maybe this provides an answer:
I will immediately rule all region hopping scripts (such as The NationStates Bunny uses) to be exempt from Rule 5, PROVIDED that they are used within reason.

I was refering to a script in which the sole objective is to evade the update.

Why make a difference about whether or not someone decides to hop around from region to region during the update? You don't need a script to avoid the update, it's perfectly doable without using any scripts.

The why isn't the question. I would just like to know if it's legal or not.

Not a bump since this is a sticky, but still curious on the answer.

Why make a difference about whether or not someone decides to hop around from region to region during the update? You don't need a script to avoid the update, it's perfectly doable without using any scripts.

Every illegal thing you can do with a script is doable without the script.

The difference (or at least a difference) between bunny hopping and update dodging is that one is harmless, interesting fun and the other is a tactical move. Since nearly everything involving invasions is illegal, it's a reasonable question.

This are the binding rules regarding scripts:
SalusaSecondus
Ok, these are now binding (though still up for discussion)
1. No script may send unsolicited telegrams. (1 reply message is permitted to a received telegram)
2. No script may post regional messages without permission of founder (or delegate if no founder exists). Edited
3. No script may access the forums (ie, any page with a URL starting with http://forums.jolt.co.uk/)
4. No script may kick or ban nations (unless controlled by the region's founder).
5. Scripts may not be used to endorse or unendorse other nations.
6. Scripts may not access the server excessively.
7. No script may create a nation. Edited
8. No script may create a region. Edited
9. Any Game Moderator, Admin, or Tech Modling may judge a script to be legal or illegal, separate from the above guidelines.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=5812823&postcount=59

Another usefull quote regarding region hopping:
Tactical Grace
Looks good. Region-hopping scripts are probably OK if they are used by one player at a time every now and then, but if people simultaneously send half a dozen puppets on a journey, that's automated Regional Happenings spamming. It's that sort of scenario which should be legislated against.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=5743452&postcount=10

Scripts during the update aren't forbidden:
Ballotonia
Also, my suggestion for a seventh rule:
7. No script may run during the two hours of the major server update.
Ballotonia

SalusaSecondus
Ballotonia, I'm not going to be judging individual scripts yet, and am still considering ways to throttle them, and you comments are noted. As per limiting them to away from the daily update, I would be opposed to that, but I'm interested in hearing other opinions.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=5750429&postcount=22

Last but not least, Ballotonia's scripts have been deemed legal.
Faithful Lutherans
Does your recent evading of game mechanics to prevent you from losing endorsements following your banning from the North Pacific fall into this category?
Your use of region hopping scripts in that context effects competition in the game precisely as you describe in your post quoted above. I would agree with you that it is unfair to the rest of us and I would hope a moderator sees it that way as well.

The Most Glorious Hack
Ballotonia's scripts have been vetted and approved by the NS staff.
Unless Faithful Lutherans has any claims that can be backed up by something other than wild speculation, they are strongly urged to quit making baseless accusations.
- The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game Moderator
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8120898&postcount=89

Any Game Moderator, Admin, or Tech Modling may judge a script to be legal or illegal, separate from the above guidelines.

Ah, the Magic Rule of NationStates...

Anything the mods don't like can and will be deemed illegal without warning.

Well, it served the desired purpose of driving legal invaders from the game, so I'd say it worked. Happily ever after.

Anyway, if that Balloon thing is what Nothingg was asking about, I guess the question has been answered.

Thanks for doing the legwork.

My question was a little more specific and while your info is appreciated, I would really like a mod answer on this.

Is using a script, for the express purpose of avoiding the update, legal?

My question was a little more specific and while your info is appreciated, I would really like a mod answer on this.

Is using a script, for the express purpose of avoiding the update, legal?

I'm not a fan of it, but I'm not going to rule it illegal (at least currently). Should I change my mind later, I'll send you a polite note. (I'm not that big of an asshole to punish you for something that I told you is allowed.)

Aren't the updates kinda random? So when one uses a script to avoid them, isn't that cheating? After all, a "normal" player shouldn't have no knowledge of when updates are happening, thus should they most definitely never use scripts to find out when updates are done.
I hate it when I have to wake up at 4 am, just to check on my warzone, while the attackers are lying in bed while they invade us 2 minutes before the update.
This game is going down the drain fast. As soon as I see that I'm beaten by a script, I will leave this game immediately! I work very hard to maintain my position, and I will promise to be a very sore loser when I find out that my oponents use scripts against me.

I'm sorry, I must be having a slow night, but, what does a script that lets an account avoid update have to do with invading at all ? All I thought it would do would be retard the accounts population growth or some such.

I'm sorry, I must be having a slow night, but, what does a script that lets an account avoid update have to do with invading at all ? All I thought it would do would be retard the accounts population growth or some such.

When I am ejected from a region I have my endorsements still on me, but when we experience an update, I'll lose it all. Immagine that I enter a Pacific, do some fast swapping and run, I'll simply run my script to keep the returned endorsements. A day/week later I return, swap a bit more and run again. A script can keep this up forever, and all I have to do is stop it occasionally, to do some swapping. This can work on every region, as long as I'm not on the banlist. In that case I have to keep on running untill I'm off the banlist again. Maybe I can let another puppet do the begging for me ;)

I either case, it is not fair to the defender, who has no way of knowing what I am doing.

I agree with Cassandrah here, this is one rule that is not only for the invaders, but excessively so.

Granted, a tedious person who is up nearly every night from 2-4am (edt) would theoretically be able to defeat the UN updates manually, and then they should be able to keep their endorsements through hard labor.

Someone who uses a script to do it for them, so they can be sound asleep while their nation churns away... it just isn't cricket...

Salusa, if you do not want to make the script illegal, could you at least make it that anyone using the script must post public notice of them using it on the moderation forum such that big organizations like the UoS, the DEN, or TITO have a chance to stand up against it?

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

Salusa, if you do not want to make the script illegal, could you at least make it that anyone using the script must post public notice of them using it on the moderation forum such that big organizations like the UoS, the DEN, or TITO have a chance to stand up against it?

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

This will not work, because one can easily switch puppets. I have almost 100 puppets, and I can't afford to reveal them all. And when I announce that my nation Cassandrah is using a script to avoid updates, I will never be safe in a region, because I will not tell who I am using it against. People will never know, do they? :p

It is very easy to defeat the update manually. I won't go into exact details, but the probability of the region you are currently in being updated is 16,000 to 1. It's just a matter of getting up at 7am BST and watching the UN page to see which region updates first. You can probably now work out very easily how it is done.
Whilst this may well be a dirty and unethical tactic, it is very hard to code out and has not (yet) been ruled illegal.

To Myrth: I understand it may be hard to code, but Salusa said:

I'm not a fan of it, but I'm not going to rule it illegal (at least currently). Should I change my mind later, I'll send you a polite note. (I'm not that big of an asshole to punish you for something that I told you is allowed.)

It seems like for now he is giving it a wink and a nod. Is it just going to remain legal until there is a code to stop it? Or is it possible that Salusa can change his mind and it just needs to be reported on a case by case basis?

To Cassandrah:

And when I announce that my nation Cassandrah is using a script to avoid updates, I will never be safe in a region, because I will not tell who I am using it against. People will never know, do they?

That is kinda what I was going for... make it that even if it is legal, make is so impractical that only the desperate need apply...

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

I should also point out that the DEN Invaders are supposed to be defunct anyway ...

It seems like for now he is giving it a wink and a nod. Is it just going to remain legal until there is a code to stop it? Or is it possible that Salusa can change his mind and it just needs to be reported on a case by case basis?

I doubt this can be coded out. What Salusa meant (I assume) is that he's going to let it continue, but may change his mind in the future.

It is very easy to defeat the update manually. I won't go into exact details, but the probability of the region you are currently in being updated is 16,000 to 1. It's just a matter of getting up at 7am BST and watching the UN page to see which region updates first. You can probably now work out very easily how it is done.
Whilst this may well be a dirty and unethical tactic, it is very hard to code out and has not (yet) been ruled illegal.

I already knew that. I even know how to experience multiple updates, but that is not the issue. A script makes it just to easy, to fight against people like me, who wake up at several times a night, just to defend a warzone, and all the hopper has to do is make sure the computer is swithed on 24/7. I wanted to do this on a certain Pacific manually, but I decided that it wasn't worth it and didn't had the time for it. Region hoppers can go to sleep, go to school, or play other games, while the script runs them to certain victory. The users of the script know it's an advantage, so they will never share it with the average player.

Thank you for allowing this discussion to continue as it goes to the heart of why I originally thought using scripts to region hop was illegal (and why I think it should be)

I imagine I risk some kind of warning for posting here again, but I would like to thank those who have taken this discussion to the level it needs to be taken. The concerns being raised are exactly the ones that I have about the whole tactic of using scripts to duck the update.

Thanks again

FL

I imagine I risk some kind of warning for posting here again, but I would like to thank those who have taken this discussion to the level it needs to be taken. The concerns being raised are exactly the ones that I have about the whole tactic of using scripts to duck the update. [Emphasis mine.]

If this was your primary consideration, then your previous public discourse should have been limited to clearly discussing those concerns in a general manner. Instead, your central focus was on making repeated and baseless accusations against another NationStates player; this overshadowed your concerns about the general legality of scripts to duck the update.

"Think about it for a moment."

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

I even know how to experience multiple updates, but that is not the issue.

Doesn't work. That's been patched for a few months now with a pretty much airtight patch.

Doesn't work. That's been patched for a few months now with a pretty much airtight patch.

Lol, I would've never found out, since I don't care about these things.
Can't you just patch the avoidance as well? I promise never to be mean to you again ;)

Lol, I would've never found out, since I don't care about these things.
Can't you just patch the avoidance as well? I promise never to be mean to you again ;)

Yes, but it is more trouble than it's worth.

Personal vote on this (meaningless, as I'm not a moderator) would be:

"Used sparingly - as in once - this is a tactic which, while underhanded, is viable.

Used repeatedly, to the detriment of general enjoyment, this will result in a DEAT and DOS on the offender, on all their accounts/puppets/etc".



Then again, I just hate invaders as a general rule...

.......
Then again, I just hate invaders as a general rule...


It's not just invaders who are using that trick. FYI.



Also thanks to Sal for the official ruling.

It's not just invaders who are using that trick. FYI.Well then if both can use it ( I assume your hinting at defenders, ? ) that'd make it a tactic both could use equally I'd expect. So shouldn't that mean it is a level playing field and thus fair to both sides ? In that case, I still wouldn't see it as being that big a deal in regards to that aspect of game-play.

Well then if both can use it ( I assume your hinting at defenders, ? ) that'd make it a tactic both could use equally I'd expect. So shouldn't that mean it is a level playing field and thus fair to both sides ? In that case, I still wouldn't see it as being that big a deal in regards to that aspect of game-play.

I won't use it, because I consider it cheating, just like the update hopping that was used before. Imagine that we'd all do the region hopping. The server would not be able to cope with that. In a matter of minutes, the whole game would collapse.

[Emphasis mine.]

If this was your primary consideration, then your previous public discourse should have been limited to clearly discussing those concerns in a general manner. Instead, your central focus was on making repeated and baseless accusations against another NationStates player; this overshadowed your concerns about the general legality of scripts to duck the update.

"Think about it for a moment."

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

I was willing to let this go, but I don't like being slandered by someone who has apparently made me his personal mission. Are you stalking me now?

I believe I know my own mind much better than you and it is you who is now assuming sir. The other player continued to engage me on point and I continued to respond. It bears noting that his mischaracterizations of me are now mirrored by yours and your wild and baseless claims of being able to know my "central focus"

The attack is not appreciated nor does it have any merit whatsoever. If you continue to pursue me am I supposed to believe that you will somehow issue a warning to yourself?

I was willing to let this go, but I don't like being slandered by someone who has apparently made me his personal mission. Are you stalking me now?

I believe I know my own mind much better than you and it is you who is now assuming sir. The other player continued to engage me on point and I continued to respond. It bears noting that his mischaracterizations of me are now mirrored by yours and your wild and baseless claims of being able to know my "central focus"

The attack is not appreciated nor does it have any merit whatsoever. If you continue to pursue me am I supposed to believe that you will somehow issue a warning to yourself?It was my judgement that your post was another veiled attack against Ballotonia. An Admin reviewed the posts involved and disagreed with my judgment. I apologize for the offense.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

Carinthe']Imagine that we'd all do the region hopping. The server would not be able to cope with that. In a matter of minutes, the whole game would collapse.

There's no way the scenario above is even remotely possible, so, it's a moot point. Unless everyone in this game could code a "hoping" script, it's not a worry. Besides which, most of you are missing the point of what most hopping scripts - in my experience - are used for: Gathering regional data, such as populations, UN nation ratios and other information, not evading updates.