NationStates Jolt Archive

What was "Ohnooo" just deleted for? I asked a simple question, in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=411788) (click link), without anything which might be construed as "flamebaiting" or "trolling", and I was subsequently deleted.

The thread was locked. But then, Most Glorious Hack unlocked the thread so that he could put his retort inside, then locked it again.

In response to Most Glorious Hack--I do not remember if this is the forums' TOS or NS's, but one of them states "any laws." That clause is obviously void, because you'd have to state the specific jurisdiction and that saying the people must adhere to every law in the world is.. well.. ridiculous, as well as unlawful in itself. The other T.O.S. (probably the one you quoted) implied this as well by stating "illegal", without the jurisdiction defined. And so:

#1. If it *IS* illegal, which country's laws, much the forum abide by? In Germany, Nazi-ism is illegal (no discussing that, then), in Islamic countries, criticizing or mocking Islam is heresy, and although I'm not sure if this is written law, in China, criticize the government will get you jailed. So, what is the jurisdiction?

#2. I do not believe it is illegal (according to American law), as there are numerous websites which contain such material and there are no arrests made, especially if it is if it is discussion, and not plans for illegal activity

#3. Comedy Central has a television show (which the post was made in reference to), containing the same material, although with a disclaimer.

So, any charges that it was "illegal" are false, and increasing the size of the text or coloring it red, do not eliminate these issues, in any way. Thank you.

The mods are never wrong even if they're actually wrong. Quit while you're behind before you get further behind. Unless you're deat on site, or the fact that I don't know the full story comes through and it turns out you were wrong all along. Good luck.

So, what is the jurisdiction?
Max Barry

Whatever happened, it seems to be clear that what you did was illegal and as the FAQs state, your nation will be deleted. So yeah...

So, what is the jurisdiction?Max Barry
This was explained several times in #themodcave last night. After the third or fourth repetition of the same damn question, each time with the same answer that you refused to accept, I tossed you from the Cave.

The answer still hasn't changed. Max supports the idea that teaching people how to do illegal things is something he won't allow on his site. Thus, when you post it here, you get deleted. The fact that Comedy Central allows it is entirely irrelevant. The fact that your local laws may or may not permit it is entirely irrelevant.

Max says no. It's his site. End of argument.

This was explained several times in #themodcave last night. After the third or fourth repetition of the same damn question, each time with the same answer that you refused to accept, I tossed you from the Cave.
That was not the case. If you'd kindly post the log of that conversation (if you have it), I'd appreciate it. I challenged the legality of a clause in the T.O.S., and your response was criticism that I didn't think the T.O.S. applied to me. In other words, a straw man fallacy (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html). Of course the T.O.S. applies to me. But if you're going to be pedantic by specifically quoting it, then at least evaluate the logic of it, and you'll see my point.

Max supports the idea that teaching people how to do illegal things is something he won't allow on his site.
Max Barry specifically stated this? Because it was not in the T.O.S. And there was no definition of what "illegal" means. You see, you may not be aware of this, but when you put forth a contract, you need a definition of terms. Without them, a contract is rendered void because of fallacies of definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_definition). For example, if I were to write a contract which stated it could be cancelled because of "an act of God", I'd need to define what exactly "an act of God" is. Otherwise, I could claim that it's my God (just as you claim it's Max Barry's laws) and I could say anything is an act of God, cancelling the contract whenever I want. ;)

The fact that Comedy Central allows it is entirely irrelevant.
Then, again, I ask: What is the jurisdiction? "Max Barry" is a circular definition (Click the fallacies of definition link above).

You can't say, "Illegal means anything which goes against the laws of Max Barry", because I have absolutely no idea what Max Barry's "laws" are, other than what's in the T.O.S. I wasn't even aware that Max Barry had his own laws. Tell me, does Max Barry have a Constitution, too? And even so, it doesn't state in the T.O.S. that "illegal" is speaking within the jurisdiction of what Max Barry, as an individual, defines as such.

If, by "illegal", you mean international law, then the "warez" post still would not be illegal as such things are not covered under international law. But once again, the jurisdiction is not stated in the contract, nor are there clauses which state that the T.O.S. may change at any time, or that you may end the contract at any time, for any reason.

Max says no. It's his site. End of argument.
Absolutely. However, if NationStates violates the contract, then I not obligated to keep it, either. In other words, you can do as you wish, of course, but I legally retain the rights to any content submitted here (not that it matters to either of us). Also, I really would not even consider this informal "online" contract valid. Because, in America and many countries, people under 18 cannot sign a legally-binding document. As you've said before, there are many children which come here and post. None of those people are legally bound by any "contract" they've agreed to. If you want this to be legally-binding, tell children they need their parent or guardian's consent, remove the "illegal" and replace it with specific activities you consider illegal, then end the contract with the clause that you may change it or end it at any time, without notice. That would make it legal.

The fact that your local laws may or may not permit it is entirely irrelevant.
Really?

Looking over the T.O.S. again, I found this (don't know how I missed it):
Where your country of access imposes laws regulating this web site, you agree to use your best efforts to comply with them.
It seems you are wrong and legal jurisdiction is my own local government, as stated in most websites' terms of service, and not some imaginary, fictitious "laws of Max Barry" that you can design, at will, for whatever reason. :) Seeing how it was not "illegal" in the United States (or Britain, either, probably), once again, your claim that Plutophobia was deleted because of an "illegal" post is proven false.

And furthermore, you still have not addressed the issue of "Ohnooo" being randomly deleted, without any infractions of the rules on that account.

One can rage against the gods, and sometimes they may hear your arguements and find them worthy, but sometimes the answer remains "nope". This horse is flogged.

Oh, and for anyone else reading this thread, this is a thread in the Moderation forum. It is meant for the moderators alone, not for the peanut gallery to discuss, speculate or pass judgement on either me or the moderators in this forum.

You do have the right to not accept our ToS as valid. In doing so however, we have the right to deny you service. You don't play by our rules, you don't get to play, simple as that.

And since when is stealing a car not illegal in the US? Or craking software? Or stealing internet service?

Impersonation of a police officer in the US is a felony.

You do have the right to not accept our ToS as valid. In doing so however, we have the right to deny you service. You don't play by our rules, you don't get to play, simple as that.
I'm not denying it, simply pointing out that your interpretation of it is unfounded, and that technically-speaking, it's legally invalid to begin with.

And since when is stealing a car not illegal in the US? Or craking software? Or stealing internet service?
Impersonation of a police officer in the US is a felony.
Those acts are all illegal. Discussing them, however, is not. The T.O.S. does not say that you may not discuss illegal activity, but that posts may not violate any laws. There's a difference there.

And I'm still waiting to find out why "Ohnooo" was deleted and by whom.

As this is a private service, hosted on private servers, our ToS does not have to be a legally binding document. All it is, is a guideline for what you have to do to recieve the service of Nationstates. And being that this is a private service, it only has to be accountable to us, and more specifically, Max Barry. This means that if we decide that mentioning the color purple is an illegal activity, we can deny you service for mentioning the color purple.

You do not have the right to use nationstates. We allow you to use it based on your acceptance of our interpretation of the ToS. You violated this and were thusly denied service.


As for discussing illegal activities...say someone does the activity and gets caught. They don't know you, all they know is they found the info on the Nationstates forums. That is a legal problem we do not want to deal with. As you would be the cause of that problem, you have been denied service. End of story.

That is a very reasonable statement. Thank you for listening. However, you have to understand that this was just a misunderstanding. I was not doing it with the intent of breaking the rules, nor was I fully aware of your procedures on permanently deleting nations.

I don't expect to have Plutophobia restored, because although from my perspective, it would be the ethical thing to do, this is a private service and it would be irrational to argue against [i]your[i] group's ethics.

But just as before, I'd like to recommend that "illegal threads" and "warez" be added to this thread, to prevent any future confusion.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=288255

By saying that, I'm not placing blame, but if a few sentences could prevent this in the future, I'm sure you'd agree that it would be worth it. I also still would like to know why "Ohnooo" was deleted. As stated in the first post of this thread, I made only one post on that account, and it was neither flamebaiting or trolling.

However, you have to understand that this was just a misunderstanding. I was not doing it with the intent of breaking the rules,
Sorry, I don't buy the "misunderstanding" theory. Here is a direct quote from the posted topic (emphasis mine)
I never pay for software. Ever. There's no point, really, when the majority of stuff (including games) can be downloaded for free and registered illegally. A lot of people already know how to crack software, so this might just be a review. For everyone else, though, this should be helpful to you.
Your entire legal / illegal argument fails when you admit that what you are teaching and doing is illegal. And your claim that I didn't inform you of that in our conversation in #themodcave is equally flawed. I may not have expressed myself as clearly as did Karmabaijan, but I'll post the relevant bits as public information. (I won't post the irrelevant bits where you stayed long past your welcome and I eventually got pissed and kicked you from the channel, as they don't add anything to the ruling.)[21:33] * Joins: Plutophobia (redacted@redacted.net)
[21:34] <Plutophobia> Hey, does anyone know why I was deleted...??
[21:34] <Plutophobia> ...Hello...?
[21:34] <Frisbeeteria> hi
[21:35] <Plutophobia> Yes, I was banned from the forums and I deleted, but don't really know why. There was one thread, maybe, but I didn't think I'd get an automatic perma-ban.. Besides, no one read it.
[21:36] <Frisbeeteria> you posted a thread describing how to perform a variety of illegal activities
[21:36] <Plutophobia> It was like four, five days ago. That's why I also thought it was weird.
[21:37] <Plutophobia> Yes, but I suggested people not do them. And although that's in the T.O.S. and the NationStates FAQ, I didn't see it in thread about forbidden activities.
[21:37] <Frisbeeteria> oh come on
[21:37] <Plutophobia> And it was also in reference to a television show, which did the very same thing. =p
[21:37] <Plutophobia> To keep it fully legal, I probably should've put a disclaimer, but I was surprised to see a full perma-ban.
[21:38] <Plutophobia> I also didn't even know the forums and NS were 'linked', that if I could banned from one, I get banned from both.
[21:38] <Frisbeeteria> promoting and describing how to get warez is a DEAT offense
[21:38] <Plutophobia> Deat?
[21:38] <Frisbeeteria> deletion
[21:38] <Frisbeeteria> no appeal, no warning, just deletion
[21:38] <Plutophobia> Where does it say that...?
[21:39] <Frisbeeteria> the FAQ and TOS state the rules
[21:39] <Frisbeeteria> they don't state the punishment, because that's up to mod precedent
[21:40] <Plutophobia> Well, the T.O.S. technically says posts can't violate "any law." That doesn't work, anyway. It should say "the laws of your state."
[21:40] <Frisbeeteria> sorry, you're wrong
[21:40] <Plutophobia> I'm a member of numerous other forums and I've NEVER been banned, other than from the wacko, Christianity forums.
[21:40] <Frisbeeteria> any READER in any state or country can be the casue of a legal challenge
[21:40] <Frisbeeteria> so your state is irrelevant
[21:41] <Plutophobia> Well, in Islamic countries, it's illegal to criticize Islam. In China, it's illegal to criticize the government. In Germany, Nazi-ism is illegal.
[21:41] <Frisbeeteria> beyond that, it's Max Barry's site, and these are his rules
[21:41] <Plutophobia> They have legal claims?
[21:42] <Frisbeeteria> your nation was deleted as violating the TOS of this site. Nothing else is relevant
[21:42] <Plutophobia> ...
[21:42] <Frisbeeteria> anything else?
[21:42] <Plutophobia> Okay, is it permanent?
[21:42] <Plutophobia> No appeal?
[21:42] <Frisbeeteria> Plutophobia will not be revived
[21:42] <Plutophobia> ...

Frisbee, that issue has been settled. Don't beat a dead horse.

Your entire legal / illegal argument fails when you admit that what you are teaching and doing is illegal.
No, it isn't. Even if I say, "I've done something illegal", there are plenty of people who will admit to using programs to gain music (I'm sure many of you here do), and they face nothing. Simply stating it is not reason enough, and neither is discussing it, although you're right. I was rather zealous in my comments and, as I said before, I should have put a disclaimer and placed stronger emphasis that no one else should it.

But really, email me a cached version of that page, I will host it on my website, and then, if you wish, you may contact the authorities and have me arrested. Whether or not I am taken into custody should be ample proof of whether or not it is "illegal", right?


And your claim that I didn't inform you of that in our conversation in #themodcave is equally flawed.
Not false at all. And I appreciate it that you posted it. I made snide comments to you on IRC (which haven't been posted), but you were rude as well, in your own, condescending way. Also, looking over that conversation, isn't it obvious I was confused? I'd sent PMs and emails to you, and a couple of moderators, and I don't remember if I said this on IRC or not (I thought I did), but I'd also wondered if I'd been hacked, and if someone had spammed or something with my account. That was in the PMs I sent and that was my initial thought. I wish karmathemod had my email, or if you had my message as well. Because that conversation on IRC was after she\he had told me I was banned for a breaking the rules and would not have my nation restored. So, there is no "presumed guilt" here.

But I am not disputing it anymore, so there is no issue here to debate.

The only issue here now, is about Ohnooo being deleted. That was the first statement in this thread. I repeated myself, highlighting it in bold. Then I repeated myself a second time. Then I repeated myself a third time. This is the fifth time I will ask you this, and I will not repeat myself again:

Why was Ohnooo deleted and by whom?

Oh, and for anyone else reading this thread, this is a thread in the Moderation forum. It is meant for the moderators alone, not for the peanut gallery to discuss, speculate or pass judgement on either me or the moderators in this forum.Try that again when you've got that Moderator notation beside your forum account. You'll find it has a lot more weight to it then, because there is no express rule that I know of that prevents people contributing to a Moderation thread if their addition is on topic / relevant to the discussion unless a Moderator says we can't. Other-wise, only when they ( other posters ) drag things of on tangents can they be " yelled at " by Moderation Staff I think you'll find ...And I'm still waiting to find out why "Ohnooo" was deleted and by whom.You might get your why, but you sure as hell don't have a right to a " whom " unless the " whom " decides they want to be known, just so you know.

EDIT for E-Xtemia : Yes, I recall that too, but since it ( A notice by thread originator ) failed to show up in the original post anyway, and the fact I'm also quoting from something half-way into the thread ( by now ) by another account, other then that which started this thread I could technically have become very easily confused by just " who " is saying what ...

Try that again when you've got that Moderator notation beside your forum account. You'll find it has a lot more weight to it then, because there is no express rule that I know of that prevents people contributing to a Moderation thread if their addition is on topic / relevant to the discussion unless a Moderator says we can't. Other-wise, only when they ( other posters ) drag things of on tangents can they be " yelled at " by Moderation Staff

Uhm... just so you know, I am pretty sure the "peanut gallery" to use IS's terminology can be asked to "butt out" by the topic starter in the first post. I've seen Cog say it (in reference to Katganistan saying it before that)

Also, you cannot tell people to get out of a thread in General or in Moderation once it's started. Sorry.
An ordinary player posting a thread in "Moderation" may request that only a NationStates Moderator respond; other ordinary players are required to stay out. I do note, however, that such a request should be made in the opening post of a "Moderation" topic,{snip}

Both are found in:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8609972&postcount=14

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

But really, email me a cached version of that page, I will host it on my website, and then, if you wish, you may contact the authorities and have me arrested. Whether or not I am taken into custody should be ample proof of whether or not it is "illegal", right?

Um ... yeah. Whatever. In the mod's eyes, it was illegal enough, which is what counts here, so ... deat. No need for histrionics and melodrama. End story. Closed case.

The only issue here now, is about Ohnooo being deleted. That was the first statement in this thread. I repeated myself, highlighting it in bold. Then I repeated myself a second time. Then I repeated myself a third time. This is the fifth time I will ask you this, and I will not repeat myself again:

Why was Ohnooo deleted and by whom?

Non issue. What difference does it make? You think Max is going to chew them out for doing their job or something? Going to pursue some personal vendetta against whomever it was? Traditionally, that sort of approach hasn't gone well.

You say you're not going to repeat yourself. Excellent. Then we can get on with things without having to see you drone on and on over nothing here. Bravissimo.

Here's a question for you - what makes you think the mods need to tell you anything, especially after seeing your attitude here and going out of your way to use the 'it didn't say specifically that I couldn't do $thing' deal? They've already stated that they're not going to itemize every possible rule that might now or in the future be broken for this same bs.

Their interpretation of the TOS and the site rules etc is exactly the point you're not getting. They have the authority to work with that. You don't. You in fact have no rights here. If you can't wrap your head around that simple fact, or can't accept How Things WorkTM, rather than wasting folk's time with loads of drivel that are designed to sound as if you speak from some level of authority, which you don't, perhaps you should find somewhere else to carry on your crusade. Your efforts might be better served where someone actually cares about whether or not you think that posting about warez or what have you is ok.

With all the people who play this game and have no problems, I am constantly amazed at the silly things folks choose to try and get away with and the lengths some people go to just to be difficult over something that's their own bloody fault to begin with.

(Oh yes - a heads up for you, as I see others have mentioned as well. The 'peanut gallery' has every right to post in moderation where the original poster has not specifically stated that they desire only a moderator response, so kindly stuff your 'stfu' attitude on that point. I'm not speaking from authority either - I don't have any. Just making observations based on more than a couple years of watching this game, and reading, and paying attention to how things go. You don't have to like it, and you don't have to pay attention to it. Just calling it like I see it.)

I now expect a long-winded rant about what an idiot suckup mod-wannabe that I am and how I know absolutely nothing about anything I'm talking about and how you've obviously been denied some vague 'right' to something or other and how it's all the mod's fault rather than yours for getting deleted.

It's how this usually pans after all. Don't expect a response - further commentary just isn't worth my time.

I'm posting through the lock to respond to this:

Why was Ohnooo deleted and by whom?
I will not state who deleted your nation. However, I will state the reason.

I've been told that another Moderator has placed a Delete-On-Sight order against you. That is, you have been permanently banned from NationStates and you are not welcome to return. Your only method of appeal is to E-mail salusa@nationstates.net or admin@nationstates.net.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation