NationStates Jolt Archive

I believe a Thread discussing how some of these things are used in each of the different Forums is in order...

First off, let's address Debate...(I find it best to have well defined terms in discussing things here so, lets start here).

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Debate

1) To consider something; deliberate.
2) To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3) To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discuss

1) To speak with another or others about; talk over.
2) To examine or consider (a subject) in speech or writing.

Synonyms: discuss, argue, debate, dispute, contend

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Dispute

1) To argue about; debate.
2) To question the truth or validity of; doubt: Her friends disputed her intentions.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=confront

1) To come face to face with, especially with defiance or hostility: I wish to confront my accuser in a court of law.
2) To bring face to face with: The defendant was confronted with incontrovertible evidence of guilt.
3) To come up against; encounter: confronted danger at every turn.
__________________________________________

I would also say that I am personally going to use specific examples, from other Threads in these Forums, to make many of the points I would like to make in this Thread.

My intent is not to offend anyone with how I myself portray the different discussions that have been had here, just to point out "my own" position on how I believe the discussion went.

I will post links to each Thread I am addressing as well as each post I reference in the discussion, and would hope that others would do the same (DISCLAIMER: I am not trying to claim any type of Authority to "make" anyone follow such advice) if they wish to discuss their own difficulties with some discussions and how arguments are/were being made.

This Thread is not meant to "re-Argue" any of the discussions which may be used here as examples, merely as a discussion of how the arguments/discussions were made by the different "sides" of the discussion.

Also, if I tend to ask a single question during a post, it is not meant to offend anyone, rather a more affective way of making sure a discussion stays on "track". The fewer the points made in a single post, the less likely there will be any chance to divert attention from the subject.

I am going to put together my own first discussion point, and others may feel free to offer their own, or discuss those already having been offered...

It may take a bit for me to do each of my own posts, since I am also going to give direct references to the discussions.

Regards,
Gaar

My first and oldest Issue still in Moderation right now, nearly 3 weeks…

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=404309&page=1&pp=15

Here we get to the heart of my contention for my actions, in this Thread…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411375&postcount=22

So, someone asked for examples…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411390&postcount=23

So I replied with…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411465&postcount=25

And got as a reply…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411484&postcount=27

Me…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411487&postcount=28

Answer…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411497&postcount=29
(Perhaps someone would be good enough to point out how this was anything but an “Ad Hominem” when I believe I have been offering empirical data to support my assertion)
As a side note, a discussion I didn’t join but happened right then.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411500&postcount=30
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411509&postcount=31

back to the discussion…
Me…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411526&postcount=32
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8411586&postcount=34

Kat becomes involved…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8412926&postcount=38
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8413092&postcount=39
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8413992&postcount=40 (explains)

Me…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8415295&postcount=44
-In this post, I explain that Kat has only then explained the warning to me.
-Then I correct her in her reference to the poster I was addressing.
-And also correct her assertion that I had been following around the poster “sniping” at them.
-And then I explain that I accept her explanation of the warning and only suggested that she could have explained earlier, perhaps when she gave the warning?
-I then go further and apologize for my action and ask one remaining question, explaining in advance that the question is sincere, in order to increase my understanding…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8415329&postcount=45
-And then ask a remaining direct question.

Answer from non-Mod…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8415359&postcount=46

Me…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8415377&postcount=47

Non-Mod…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8415399&postcount=48

Kat…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8415485&postcount=49
(no answers)

Me…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8415511&postcount=50
(Explaining, again, my intent)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8415533&postcount=52
(re-asking Kat my question. I believe it fairly straightforward question)

Kat…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8416042&postcount=53
(The one I have some serious questions about…)
-Kat posts four different “possibilities” why I would be asking the question I am asking. Each of the four possibilities suggests some type of ulterior motives, on my part, and not one of them addresses the question I asked.

My response…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8416125&postcount=55
(Again trying to state the question as simply as possible, but I had thought the first time was fairly short and too the point, so I had to elaborate a bit, right? I did want my question answered, after all…

Kat’s “answer”…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8416554&postcount=56
-Ok, she finally gives me an answer to my question, but not before having to make some comment on how I addressed the question the SECOND time, without seeing how her explanation might have better been addressed to BOTH times I asked the same question.
-But regardless, I had gotten my answer…

Me…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8416648&postcount=58
(But I had a remaining question for her…)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8416582&postcount=57

And then Cogitation stepped in…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8416877&postcount=59
-And said that he would be looking into the Issues in the Thread.

Me…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8416911&postcount=60

And even to now there has been no response to the remaining questions I have in this and a few other Threads in Moderation.

I will go on to another Subject in my next post.

Regards,
Gaar

I gotta ask 2 questions:

1) Are you debating yourself again or are you debating the Mods without their knowledge?

2) Shouldn't this be in Moderation (or are you scared it'll get locked)?

I gotta ask 2 questions:

1) Are you debating yourself again or are you debating the Mods without their knowledge?

2) Shouldn't this be in Moderation (or are you scared it'll get locked)?
It is a legitimate Thread Topic, is it not?

I offered up my own first example only after my reason for starting the Thread, is there a problem with that?

I believe I stated the methods I would be using to cite "my" opinion on the discussion I would be citing, right?

Regards,
Gaar

As an observation to actually answer the concerns you've been facing, your response is fairly typical of the type that frustrates others.

(Granted my questions may not have deserved a response, but hold your indignation. You may learn something.)

1. You did not answer either question. (Again, this may be justified in this circumstance. But it is typical of your responses in all circumstances.)

2. You responded with 3 hostile, rhetorical questions. (Again, perhaps justified here. But irritating when you do it routinely.)

3. Your response was not merely non-responsive to my post, but also changed the topic.

4. Your response does not really make sense and is basically 3 non-sequiters.

I have every expectation you will ignore or denouce these observations. I care not. Take them for what you will.

As an observation to actually answer the concerns you've been facing, your response is fairly typical of the type that frustrates others.Ad Hominem - merely an opinion stated about "my response" rather than directly answering any of the Issues put forward.

(Granted my questions may not have deserved a response, but hold your indignation. You may learn something.)
Another Ad Hominem, questioning my understanding for having addressed his post to me.

1. You did not answer either question. (Again, this may be justified in this circumstance. But it is typical of your responses in all circumstances.) I believe by answer my questions you would have garnered the information you required. Funny that your questioning my intent for this Thread has now made it anything BUT my 'Debating myself', as I believe YOU put it...

2. You responded with 3 hostile, rhetorical questions. (Again, perhaps justified here. But irritating when you do it routinely.) Rhetorical questions? You mean like the one YOU first posted here? And "mine" were hostile but "yours" were not, why exactly?

3. Your response was not merely non-responsive to my post, but also changed the topic. You wouldn't mind citing how, as I do, so I am not left guessing at what you are talking about, would you?

I will happily address any concerns you may have if you wouldn't mind "specifically" stating them, ok?

4. Your response does not really make sense and is basically 3 non-sequiters.

I have every expectation you will ignore or denouce these observations. I care not. Take them for what you will. Have I addressed each to your satisfaction, or is there something you would like me to make more clear?

Regards,
Gaar

Since clearly, this is ONCE AGAIN, a discussion of Moderator actions, and the same tactics you've used REPEATEDLY to try to prove that everyone else on the forum is in the wrong...


imove to Moderation.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=406692&page=1&pp=15&highlight=GreenHouse

Cat’s first post…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8498567&postcount=21
(people begin saying this should “close” the Issue…)

My first post to the Thread…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8502289&postcount=27
(I had yet to see anyone in the Thread say anything about water vapor as a GreenHouse Gas, let alone being the most prominent one)

First reply…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8502552&postcount=28
(And a very well stated one at that, even though I disagree this posts at least addresses the Issues and begins thoughtful discourse on the Issue I have just presented.

Second reply…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8502919&postcount=29
(yet another thoughtful reply, addressing the Issue.)

And we come to the first post that doesn’t address any specific Issue…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8503195&postcount=31
(I address this one later in the Thread, just thought I would cite it in the order it was received).

My reply to the First…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8503952&postcount=32
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8503960&postcount=33
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8503967&postcount=34
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8503979&postcount=35
(nothing but a few links to the information I believed they were asking about).

And my reply to the “disruptive” post…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8503997&postcount=36

And here the poster makes a valid point again, but it is not something I believe pertinent but I attempt to “track down” this one number in this one Table because I am challenged on it…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8504932&postcount=42
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8504974&postcount=43
(I am not going to post the sequence of posts going into this “wild Goose” chase on my part, suffice it to say that I concede the point after making an Ass of myself and I readily admit my error)

But here is when some “join in” and only offer Ad Hominem attacks to the discussion, or other discussions not pertinent to the Issue being discussed…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8504992&postcount=44
(Nothing but Ad Hominem)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8505072&postcount=45
(Purely Off-Topic, nothing else)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8505162&postcount=46
(Purely Off-Topic, nothing else)
(The discussion then centers on a single number in a single Table from the information I linked to, and yes I chase my tail for several posts and apologize for misrepresenting a single number and its context)

My first attempt to bring the discussion back on point…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8505681&postcount=65
(note it was a direct reply to the next poster…)

His reply…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8505742&postcount=67
(Note that 3 separate Issues were addressed in the post and yet he addresses not one of them in his reply and simply begins the Ad Hominems…)

My replies…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8505833&postcount=68
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8505900&postcount=69
(This second one addresses the “sources” that the poster I am replying to provided earlier in the Thread).

And then more Off-Topic…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8505949&postcount=70

And I again immediately try to bring it back on Topic…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8505992&postcount=71
(note I am again addressing his own Source and pointing out what it says about the Issue.)

The response…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506025&postcount=72
And instead of addressing the Issue, I get some type of response to do some “clicky” thing and more Ad Hominems

So I address again “His Source” and their contentions…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506045&postcount=73

And the response…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506054&postcount=74
(note that the Issue is yet again not addressed, even the one he has now changed it to and the continued Ad Hominems. The only consistency so far is my supporting my side of the discussion with links to information HE has supplied as well as my own and I am getting nothing back accept Ad Hominem attacks and no specific defense or rebuttal of the information being provided.

And then I post this gem…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506060&postcount=75
(and this single post becomes the focus of many posts after this. Their contention is that I am arguing with myself… When in fact, the first statement of 10,000 years is directly from the links and information that Cat has been pointing to from the beginning. I believed that he would be able to recognize HIS OWN argument and why it was so absurd, you will see from the next barrage of posts just how wrong I was in my assumption…

The beginning of the absurd…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506199&postcount=76
(obviously not recognizing his own point in the post just prior…)

So I explain it to him…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506440&postcount=78
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506472&postcount=79

And then a second poster jumps in, obviously not understanding what was being said, and not caring to become informed before he comments…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506484&postcount=80

So I try to explain it to him…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506496&postcount=81

And again he doesn’t seem to “get it”…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506508&postcount=82

And Cat comes back with this rant…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506515&postcount=83
(note the bolding, this is significant when I address it in upcoming posts, obviously some are either ignoring their own Sources of information or sincerely do not understand what it is they themselves have offered as information to this Thread.)

And Grave has to add his two cents, while making no real point, only reinforcing the view that he doesn’t really understand what is being pointed out here…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506528&postcount=84

So I try to spell it out, yet AGAIN, and again try to bring them BACK On-Topic…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506537&postcount=85

And then Soviets have to jump in and show they too are lost…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506619&postcount=86

So I again try to explain it as I see where their confusion is coming from…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506636&postcount=87
(I think I make my point quite clear there, and even go further to provide a link to HIS OWN information…)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506648&postcount=88

And then Grave decides to go almost strictly to the Ad Hominems instead of addressing any of the information provided…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506658&postcount=90
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506668&postcount=91

Addressing his one attempt at providing information…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506673&postcount=92

Soviets, strictly Ad Hominem…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506676&postcount=93

Addressing Grave, AGAIN…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506683&postcount=94

Grave finally makes a post with some points…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506684&postcount=95

And I make my own “Off-Topic” post, directed at no one in particular…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506695&postcount=96
(my first after how many directed at me?)

Grave then goes on showing he has still not quite understood what was said…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506706&postcount=97
And then another Ad Hominem…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506710&postcount=99

So I try, YET AGAIN, to explain…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506732&postcount=100
(note I admit my error, and further explain the point…)

Cat jumps back in…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506765&postcount=101
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506789&postcount=102
(note how I am immediately berated for admitting the error…)

My response…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506890&postcount=103
(pointing out another Source for the information…)

Cat again jumps on the second Source…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8506985&postcount=104
(now, mind you were are talking about one number in a Table to one of the Sources I have provided.)

So I address the “Wild Goose” chase I have been on…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8510030&postcount=108
(note, I am again trying to bring the discussion back on point, rather than tracking down the singe number, which I will say I eventually do show the correlation).

Cat’s reply…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8510116&postcount=109

My reply…
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8510286&postcount=113

At this point the discussion changes slightly and I will address the remainder of this Thread in another post…

My point now is, in the two Threads I have now gone through, I have pointed out multiple times I have ceded points, admitted errors and apologized for them. I would contend that I do that whenever I believe I am wrong, and I am Human and will be wrong from time to time. It is best when we can admit such things and move on.

Now, how many times do you think anyone has admitted any errors in these, or any other discussions I have had on these Forums?

I believe I have pointed out a few times where people have been in error or tried to give me an opinion so they could argue with it. I will admit a few times that people have actually recognized my apology and thanked me for it, but even that is a rare occasion.

And then the accusations come that it is I that cause the disagreements. That my “demeanor” is somehow at fault… I believe I have corrected the behavior that I was told was the “offensive” part of my discourse and have yet to have a Moderator be any more “specific” in what additional behavior I am doing that is not condoned of others on this Site? Couldn’t be that I am constantly attacked with Ad Hominems, even by Moderation, and feel a need to defend myself, could it?

My next post will address the rest of the Thread started above…

Regards,
Gaar

Just in casual observation, I would say it is your apparent attitude of making the mods micromanage every piddling thread out there for the least hint of what may or may not construe less than stellar debate or discussion skills rather than learning how to moderate yourself, or how to get along with others in spite of whether or not they measure up to your 'standards' or expectations. The continual fussing over minute points that really could be dealt with on the forums between players in most cases has become kind of silly.

You seem to be getting your nose out of joint over next to nothing, and trying to look somehow superior with your endless links and dry rules-lawyering. That sort of behaviour tends to irritate people. It's a game, man. And if there isn't blatant offenses going on, grow some skin, be the bigger boy, and move on already. The mods, I would imagine, are not here to hold your hand and coddle you as you tiptoe through the forums.

Not everyone will always agree with you. You will not change everyone's minds with your words of wisdom. It is their right to disagree, even as it is yours. There comes a point when it's time to just agree to disagree and move on, rather than make a crusade of proving once and for all to everyone that you are right - whether you are or not.

Just in casual observation, I would say it is your apparent attitude of making the mods micromanage every piddling thread out there for the least hint of what may or may not construe less than stellar debate or discussion skills rather than learning how to moderate yourself, or how to get along with others in spite of whether or not they measure up to your 'standards' or expectations. The continual fussing over minute points that really could be dealt with on the forums between players in most cases has become kind of silly.

You seem to be getting your nose out of joint over next to nothing, and trying to look somehow superior with your endless links and dry rules-lawyering. That sort of behaviour tends to irritate people. It's a game, man. And if there isn't blatant offenses going on, grow some skin, be the bigger boy, and move on already. The mods, I would imagine, are not here to hold your hand and coddle you as you tiptoe through the forums.

Not everyone will always agree with you. You will not change everyone's minds with your words of wisdom. It is their right to disagree, even as it is yours. There comes a point when it's time to just agree to disagree and move on, rather than make a crusade of proving once and for all to everyone that you are right - whether you are or not.
Without addressing each of your points, which I will gladly do if I must, might I ask why it is I cannot get specific answers to specific questions, even from the Moderators?

Am I not allowed to have my grievances heard?

I am being specific, because I am accused, just as you have now done, of having some type of "attitude", and when the specific behavior was presented to me I have changed the behavior...

Now am I being told that how people "perceive" me to be asking my questions, after all that is what confrontation is all about, my way of asking questions is now going to be the Issue? And if mine is, why isn't everyone else’s? I believe I have, and will continue, to point out that the tactics that people, like you, as well as the Moderation are now accusing me of have in fact been used against me in a much larger and more often way than has been accused of me by several Moderators now.

I am able to defend myself when being accused of such things, am I not? I am trying to stay within the boundaries that I am supposed to follow, but if some things are not addressed how am I supposed to know where such limits may exist, if they do?

Now, I am going to "step away", again, from my Computer and think about how I would like to continue this. This is another thing I have "been doing" since it was suggested by Moderation when I feel a need to respond. My point will remain... If people are going to have "discussions, debates and arguments", people should expect "confrontation", and I see it happening here all the time, so why do people feel it is ok, except when I have overstepped some "Rule", to question mine when I am not questioning theirs? I only will begin to question someone else's when they have chosen to question mine, and I am willing to show numerous examples in just the few short weeks I have been here.

By the way, I have had a couple of "telegrams" sent to me from people who participate very little in the Forums, wishing to thank me for saying the things I have and making the points I have. I will not cite anyone in particular, but don't think that just because someone is willing to "pat others" on the back during a discussion that there aren't those that also side with me, they just see how I am attacked and choose not to subject themselves to such abuse...

I on the other hand do not mind... I didn't spend 3 years on the Debate Team because I didn't enjoy supporting the positions I take.

Regards,
Gaar

I believe you've chosen to go on the defensive again, and rather than look to yourself, immediately leap to 'but all these guys are' arguments, missing my point entirely.

By all means, defend yourself. Do so within the boundaries that those who created these boards have laid down. Do it in the threads you've chosen to insert your opinions in. Use your own 'skills' rather than coming across as a rules-lawyer who's more interested in nitpicking other people's methods than actual discussion - not everyone is a good debater, after all. Stop expecting the moderators to micromanage. Start worrying more about your own behaviour than everyone elses, unless you find yourself confronted with something actually worth getting upset about like rabid flaming etc.

I think you'll find your time on the boards more enjoyable and less a hassle and constant headache for yourself and others if you try that out.

I believe you've chosen to go on the defensive again, and rather than look to yourself, immediately leap to 'but all these guys are' arguments, missing my point entirely.

By all means, defend yourself. Do so within the boundaries that those who created these boards have laid down. Do it in the threads you've chosen to insert your opinions in. Use your own 'skills' rather than coming across as a rules-lawyer who's more interested in nitpicking other people's methods than actual discussion - not everyone is a good debater, after all. Stop expecting the moderators to micromanage. Start worrying more about your own behaviour than everyone elses, unless you find yourself confronted with something actually worth getting upset about like rabid flaming etc.

I think you'll find your time on the boards more enjoyable and less a hassle and constant headache for yourself and others if you try that out.I have defended myself because YOU chose to attack me, right? Care to specifically cite any time I have done something other than try to stay on subject and back my assertions?

Yes, I am nit-picking here, because that is what THIS Thread is for...

If you go look at the Threads in question, I believe you will see that I was trying my utmost to stay on track and have a civil discussion, much as I am trying now, yet it always seems to be "my fault" that others question my motives and tactics rather than the specifics of any of the discussions I have had, just as you have AGAIN done here...

Why do you suppose that is?

*stepping away now, before I say something that will be shoved in my face later*

Regards,
Gaar

I'm not attacking. I'm trying to make some helpful suggestions and offer some possible insight into why you may be experiencing the negativity you are - and seem all too willing to start flinging at the first sign of 'they don't agree with me'.

What I am suggesting is that you worry more about yourself than others for a while. If you are behaving well, and are above reproach, so long as they have not crossed over the line, what does it matter if others are not up to your acceptable level of debate and discussion? Your behaviour ought to be able to stand on it's own without endless lists and accusatory discussion of what everyone else is doing wrong, no?

I guess I just have a different approach to some of this. Then again, I tend to not enjoy a lot of the General Forum debate - in part, for this very sort of thing. If it isn't fun, why do it? This is supposed to be a game after all. Unless someone is going out of their way to break the rules, what difference does it make in the end? Petty people will eventually make enough of an ass of themselves that it'll add up. Those who can hold to the higher ground will become more respected. Those who have their priorities mixed up will invariably end up supporting the 'wrong' sides in all that, and they'll end up looking foolish as well.

So I ask you - what is the big deal here, really? Is it the fact you feel you deserve more attention than you've gotten? Are you looking for some sort of validation? Are you hoping that the 'popularity appeal' of your last argument ("I have tg's from people telling me I'm great") will make you more 'right' somehow?

Perhaps you need to examine your reasons for pursuing some of this as hard as you are, and in wishing to continue 'debating' on the forums while you're taking some time out. Best of luck in your endeavors.

I'm not attacking. I'm trying to make some helpful suggestions and offer some possible insight into why you may be experiencing the negativity you are - and seem all too willing to start flinging at the first sign of 'they don't agree with me'. What would be helpful would be if you had specific examples of my behavior that you believe is my being the person who begins the offenses. Otherwise you are just another offering your opinion where there are plenty of opinions already being offered but not much substance.

What I am suggesting is that you worry more about yourself than others for a while. If you are behaving well, and are above reproach, so long as they have not crossed over the line, what does it matter if others are not up to your acceptable level of debate and discussion? Your behaviour ought to be able to stand on it's own without endless lists and accusatory discussion of what everyone else is doing wrong, no? Yes, I understand... And hence the reason I am pointing out specific behavior, so that I am not just offering my "opinion" on what happened, I am also offering the actual sequence of events, so no one has to take my word for what I am saying, they can go look for themselves. So if you have something specific you would like to offer so I can defend myself, if I see fit, or admit I was wrong.

I am also curious why it is that no one mentions any of the people who I have offered links to posts that were obviously nothing but attacks as opposed to my trying to keep the conversation on track and not personal?

Can anyone explain how it is I am the only one anyone seems to have a problem with how the discourse went in these conversations, yet no one can point out what I did "specifically" just say it is their "impression"?!?!

Please, I am being specific with what I am presenting here. People are welcome to have opinions about it, but you might think they would be able to support their assertions instead of just believe that because you say it we should believe it...

If you would like to have a "discussion" on what I am talking about with this Thread, I will be glad to now use you as an example and go through your own posts here point by point.

Seeing how I am and have been willing to discuss the "specifics" any time anyone else is willing to do just that, and not only offer up their "opinion" without specifically citing any such behavior.

I guess I just have a different approach to some of this. Then again, I tend to not enjoy a lot of the General Forum debate - in part, for this very sort of thing. If it isn't fun, why do it? This is supposed to be a game after all. Unless someone is going out of their way to break the rules, what difference does it make in the end? Petty people will eventually make enough of an ass of themselves that it'll add up. Those who can hold to the higher ground will become more respected. Those who have their priorities mixed up will invariably end up supporting the 'wrong' sides in all that, and they'll end up looking foolish as well. Ok, so you have a different approach. Does that make your right and mine wrong? Again, please feel free to have any opinion you like, but might I ask what it is helping to express it here?

Again, if you would like to discuss something specific, I invite such a discussion. Otherwise, you are merely offering yet "another" opinion and, quite frankly, I have had plenty of seeing other people’s opinions and I was hoping for more of a discussion based on the "facts" and not so much "feelings"... So please feel free to throw as many more "insults" (yes, you can call them what you like and I will call them what I like) at me as you like in this Thread, unless you are willing to cite some specific behavior that you find particularly offensive and beyond the Board Rules, then you won't mind if I ignore further posts of your in this thread...

So I ask you - what is the big deal here, really? Is it the fact you feel you deserve more attention than you've gotten? Are you looking for some sort of validation? Are you hoping that the 'popularity appeal' of your last argument ("I have tg's from people telling me I'm great") will make you more 'right' somehow?

Perhaps you need to examine your reasons for pursuing some of this as hard as you are, and in wishing to continue 'debating' on the forums while you're taking some time out. Best of luck in your endeavors. I'm sorry, I take the "appeal" back and shall only say at this point that I believe the first post made my intentions here quite clear.

If the questions I have asked in Moderation would be answered I wouldn't have to continue to *bump* Threads because they have not been answered.

I will also add that, I have not only been a Moderator on a Message Board, I helped put to together the ones used for Motor City Online and helped run them. While many here are correct that this is currently a "free Site" it is my understanding that they are attempting to build a "Real Game" here that they would like to charge for. If that is the case, they may like to consider how they are going to "deal" with people "like myself" with their Moderators. There has to be consistency in how people are treated, no matter what other opinions they have or how they present themselves within the boundaries of the Terms of Service.

I'm not sure what type of Game Reviews they would expect to get from someone like myself after having been treated like this in their Game, by their Moderators, if I were asked to write a Review for any of the Gaming Magazines, simply for having the opinions that I have in the discussion Forums?

But then again, perhaps they really don't care about such things here... How would I know, I am merely here to find such things out.

Regards,
Gaar

What would be helpful would be if you had specific examples of my behavior that you believe is my being the person who begins the offenses. Otherwise you are just another offering your opinion where there are plenty of opinions already being offered but not much substance.

Yes, I understand... And hence the reason I am pointing out specific behavior, so that I am not just offering my "opinion" on what happened, I am also offering the actual sequence of events, so no one has to take my word for what I am saying, they can go look for themselves. So if you have something specific you would like to offer so I can defend myself, if I see fit, or admit I was wrong.

I am also curious why it is that no one mentions any of the people who I have offered links to posts that were obviously nothing but attacks as opposed to my trying to keep the conversation on track and not personal?

Can anyone explain how it is I am the only one anyone seems to have a problem with how the discourse went in these conversations, yet no one can point out what I did "specifically" just say it is their "impression"?!?!

Please, I am being specific with what I am presenting here. People are welcome to have opinions about it, but you might think they would be able to support their assertions instead of just believe that because you say it we should believe it...

If you would like to have a "discussion" on what I am talking about with this Thread, I will be glad to now use you as an example and go through your own posts here point by point.

Seeing how I am and have been willing to discuss the "specifics" any time anyone else is willing to do just that, and not only offer up their "opinion" without specifically citing any such behavior.

Ok, so you have a different approach. Does that make your right and mine wrong? Again, please feel free to have any opinion you like, but might I ask what it is helping to express it here?

Again, if you would like to discuss something specific, I invite such a discussion. Otherwise, you are merely offering yet "another" opinion and, quite frankly, I have had plenty of seeing other people’s opinions and I was hoping for more of a discussion based on the "facts" and not so much "feelings"... So please feel free to throw as many more "insults" (yes, you can call them what you like and I will call them what I like) at me as you like in this Thread, unless you are willing to cite some specific behavior that you find particularly offensive and beyond the Board Rules, then you won't mind if I ignore further posts of your in this thread...

I'm sorry, I take the "appeal" back and shall only say at this point that I believe the first post made my intentions here quite clear.

If the questions I have asked in Moderation would be answered I wouldn't have to continue to *bump* Threads because they have not been answered.

I will also add that, I have not only been a Moderator on a Message Board, I helped put to together the ones used for Motor City Online and helped run them. While many here are correct that this is currently a "free Site" it is my understanding that they are attempting to build a "Real Game" here that they would like to charge for. If that is the case, they may like to consider how they are going to "deal" with people "like myself" with their Moderators. There has to be consistency in how people are treated, no matter what other opinions they have or how they present themselves within the boundaries of the Terms of Service.

I'm not sure what type of Game Reviews they would expect to get from someone like myself after having been treated like this in their Game, by their Moderators, if I were asked to write a Review for any of the Gaming Magazines, simply for having the opinions that I have in the discussion Forums?

But then again, perhaps they really don't care about such things here... How would I know, I am merely here to find such things out.

Regards,
Gaar

Thats ok all the rest of us would give them great reviews for the way they have been dealing/puting up with you :p

As per request, specifics:

your apparent attitude of making the mods micromanage every piddling thread out there for the least hint of what may or may not construe less than stellar debate or discussion skills rather than learning how to moderate yourself, or how to get along with others in spite of whether or not they measure up to your 'standards' or expectations. The continual fussing over minute points that really could be dealt with on the forums between players in most cases has become kind of silly.
getting your nose out of joint over next to nothing, and trying to look somehow superior with your endless links and dry rules-lawyering.
Use your own 'skills' rather than coming across as a rules-lawyer who's more interested in nitpicking other people's methods than actual discussion
Stop expecting the moderators to micromanage. Start worrying more about your own behaviour than everyone elses, unless you find yourself confronted with something actually worth getting upset about like rabid flaming etc.

As for specific examples of your behaviour, first, go back and read every one of your posts here, and take a look at not just content, but tone.

Then we have your penchant for CAPS locking EVERY so OFTEN in such QUANTITY as comes across as ARROGANT and IRRITATING. Caps is, with online venues, tended to be viewed as 'yelling'. Yelling, as you man know, is not a friendly form of debate or discussion. There are other less irritating methods to use when attempting to add emphasis to a word such as bold or italics. This point has been brought up more than once, I believe. It's called 'ettiquite'.

Am I not allowed to have my grievances heard?
Resorting to emotional appeals or outbursts - not the best either. Also, quite obviously not the case, as you have aired your grievances, at length, and continue to do so. Even after recieving answers.

Appeal to authority - such as you claim of being a moderator elsewhere. That's nice. We're quite happy for you. You are not a moderator here, and the fact that you have been elsewhere does not make you an authority on this site.

Posting threads to challenge the moderation on this site in General rather than addressing it where it ought to be, here in the Moderation forum also tends to be viewed as poor ettiquite.

Ignoring when people have given you specifics or pointed out where you seem to be doing other than what you claim, as shown here. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8606850&postcount=5)

Reposting nearly in it's entirety post by post, if only in link another thread already in moderation where you could have just as easily posted just the link to the thread with a summary, rather than all the useless 'this is my post' 'this is someone elses post' tags. People are quite capable of telling the difference between yourself and other posters. Our account names, after all, are listed right there. This is another example of arrogant and irritating behaviour as mentioned earlier. Things like this are both in poor form and will likely result in more and more people casually dismissing anything you say due to your developing a history of typing much, and actually saying little. You've done this with two different threads in this one.

Misdirection - again, not helpful, such as when you used some of your aforementioned tactics, and then accused Kat of 'baiting' when she stated that perhaps you had not read the additional information. Attempting to shift the topic by trying to find any scraps of possible (and quite weak, in this case) information on anyone who hasn't agreed with you is poor form.

In fact, you should perhaps just take a read through one of the following lists (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index) of logical fallacies (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm) and familiarize yourself with the concepts a bit better. You may find it helpful. As seen below, you need to familiarize yourself with what some of the terms actually mean.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.p...97&postcount=29
(Perhaps someone would be good enough to point out how this was anything but an “Ad Hominem” when I believe I have been offering empirical data to support my assertion)
Lets see here.

Description of Ad Hominem

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Saying that you seem to be able to make your own assumptions is not an ad hominem attack. It is an observation. Nor are the ones you seem to be hung up on here. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8606889&postcount=6) Challenging you to come up with some content, or challenging your ability to do so is not ad hominem. Saying you can't come up with content because you are $thing would be.
-But regardless, I had gotten my answer…
And yet, you continue to pester and prod? If you had gotten your answer, one might draw the conclusion that whether the answer was to your liking, the case was closed.
Rhetorical questions? You mean like the one YOU first posted here? And "mine" were hostile but "yours" were not, why exactly?
Hypocrisy - when given specifics you tend to answer with a pointed finger at someone else rather than offer content as you claim. I see no 'specifics' given by you there either.
And if mine is, why isn't everyone else’s?
'Everyone else' seems to, for the most part, able to handle themselves in the discussion threads, and support their statements and suppositions without having to run to the mods crying every time someone looks at them funny. That may be a good part of it. 'Everyone else' is not droning on at length in moderation and elsewhere telling everyone why their views ought to be heard over 'everyone elses', misrepresenting themselves and the arguments in painfully long posts that pretty much go nowhere, and wasting the moderator's time with minor issues that could easily be resolved between players, if they displayed the level of maturity that exceeds grade school mentality. 'Everyone else' is actually just as accountable as you to the mods - who do not run this place with an iron fist, nor micromanage each thread that comes up, nor play favorites when it comes to breaking the rules, which are not all that hard to understand nor abide by, in spite of what some seem to think. 'Everyone else' will be taken to task when and if their supposed 'offenses' cross the line, and not before, as has been proven time and time again. 'Everyone elses' history on the forums will likely be taken into account when this is done, hence the possible appearance of what you claim to be 'inconsistencies' in moderation. What this actually represents is the moderators having the ability to check records that we do not have access to, while reading the public evidence, and coming to a decision. As a 'former moderator' I would think you would be more familiar with the concept, and understand that 'everyone else' is expected to handle most things themselves, until a situation becomes problematic.

Yes, I could go on, but this is really tiring and I very much doubt that you will use any of this to make any improvements, given your record on responses thus far. Granted, this has probably been a supreme waste of time and effort as is, so I think I'll end the examples here. [color=grey](Note: this is not ad hominem. It is an observation based on your responses thus far. Just in case you're having difficulty understanding the difference still.)[/colr]

As has been said before, 'If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten'. I hope that you can prove my assumption wrong and move past all this unpleasantness to go on and actually start enjoying your debates and discussions here. Best of luck.

Very well. I enjoy a challenge. The flaws of your debating style:

You seem to be needlessly pedantic, apparently requiring everyone to support every sentence in every post.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pedantic
as in this post:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8606501&postcount=1
in this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410172

You seem unable to grasp the grammatical purpose of "quotes" and CAPITALIZATION.
The proper use of quotes:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=quote
http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm
The improper use of capitalization:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/allcaps.htm
As in this post:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8606889&postcount=6
Of this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410172

It is not necessary to post many links to the same thread. As you have done here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8606807&postcount=2
and here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8612204&postcount=8
In this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410172
And which I have ruthlessly mocked in this post:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8618769&postcount=17
In this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410172

Before replying to this post, I require you to read the following:
http://www.albion.com/netiquette/

Once you are finished, I will expect to see at least one excerpt from it (enclose it in quotations) in your reply. If I do not, then I know that you are hypocritical in your style of debating. Which is another flaw.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hypocritical
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=flaw

Since clearly, this is ONCE AGAIN, a discussion of Moderator actions, and the same tactics you've used REPEATEDLY to try to prove that everyone else on the forum is in the wrong...

imove to Moderation. Everyone else in the Forum?

I'm sorry, I have had plenty of discussions that didn't end up in Moderation...

So this statement is yet another Ad Hominem attack against me, by a Moderator.

Regards,
Gaar

P.S. Would someone let me know if THESE were proper uses of CAPS in these Forums?

Everyone else in the Forum?

I'm sorry, I have had plenty of discussions that didn't end up in Moderation...

So this statement is yet another Ad Hominem attack against me, by a Moderator.

Regards,
Gaar
Kat never said that you didn't have threads that stayed in General. She stated that you've creating threads that are on the discussion of moderator-related topics in General.

For future reference, if you ever have a moderator-related discussion or question, it should go in Moderation, and posting it in General while knowing that is very disrespectful of the moderators.

Your claim of Kat's response being some sort of an attack on you is blowing the situation out of proportion. If you would start your threads in the correct forum, then she probably wouldn't have said that, correct? It isn't that hard...

P.S. Would someone let me know if THESE were proper uses of CAPS in these Forums?
The way that you have been using the CAPS button gives off the vibe of being extremely arrogant. It's definitely looked down upon, and I suggest that you not do that anymore. For others, it can get very irritating.

As per request, specifics:

As for specific examples of your behaviour, first, go back and read every one of your posts here, and take a look at not just content, but tone.

Not sure exactly how you get "tone" from a Message Board, but ok...

Now perhaps you would be so kind as telling me exactly what "tone" YOU BELIEVE you set, for me, when you first posted here and what tone your continued posts have, from "my" perspective? Because I find it less than sincere to not address any of the specific grievences I have cited while you continue on with personal attacks against me that cite no "specific" post of mine to any of the "assertions" you have made...

It seems, without looking at the details yet, that the next post may actually have some substance that may be addressed, so you won't mind if I dismiss the rest of your rant in favor of showing you how thoughtful discourse can be had on a message Board, will you?

Regards,
Gaar

The tone of voice that everyone is referring to is the way that you capitalize words repeatedly in your response to others. I could provide examples, if you'd like, since you only seem to notice posts where examples are cited.

The tone of voice that everyone is referring to is the way that you capitalize words repeatedly in your response to others. I could provide examples, if you'd like, since you only seem to notice posts where examples are cited.

I expect he'll brush me off, too, once he gets around to actually reading my post.

Very well. I enjoy a challenge. The flaws of your debating style:

You seem to be needlessly pedantic, apparently requiring everyone to support every sentence in every post.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pedantic[/url
as in this post:
[url]http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8606501&postcount=1
in this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410172] As I stated in the post you reference, I believe it best to be very clear about what is being discussed, especially on a message Board where it is very difficult to judge a persons demeanor...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=demeanor

You seem unable to grasp the grammatical purpose of "quotes" and CAPITALIZATION.
The proper use of quotes:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=quote
http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/quotation.htm

Hmmmm....(from the link you provided...)
2) To cite or refer to for illustration or proof.

I believe that "is" the reason I use quotes within my posts.

The improper use of capitalization:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/allcaps.htm
As in this post:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8606889&postcount=6
Of this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410172

Hmmmm... The post you cite has 4 words capped. And THIS is from the source YOU linked to...

"...Sure, a sprinkling of capitalized words can add some zip to a thrust, but they should be used sparingly..."

And I believe that, since the behavior was explained from Cogitation I have greatly reduced the amount of caps within my posts and use them for the very reason cited in the link you provided. You may feel differently however, and I would only ask that this be considered in this type of discussion also, since it is still one of my open issues in Moderation, what is the limitation on other things which may annoy others? i.e., the use of "Smilies" in each post, how many is too many how often is too often? How about the use of bolds, or italics or color?

It is not necessary to post many links to the same thread. As you have done here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8606807&postcount=2
and here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8612204&postcount=8
In this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410172
And which I have ruthlessly mocked in this post:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8618769&postcount=17
In this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410172 Actually, I believe it was and I posted, in the first post in this Thread that you have repeatedly linked to now which is NOT something I did in any of the posts you refered to, exactly why I believe I needed to do such. It makes looking through the Thread much easier in citing the posts to which I am refering, while also giving a sequence of events from at least one of the posters perspectives.

As a Moderator, I always appreciated such postings, since it helped me figure out what happened. I am not suggesting that I or any Moderator for that matter should or would take one side as the only thing they look at, but it is very helpful in assessing that person’s intent of their postings if they were able to explain the discussion in the manner that I have. Take it or leave it, it is my opinion, nothing else.

Before replying to this post, I require you to read the following:
http://www.albion.com/netiquette/

Once you are finished, I will expect to see at least one excerpt from it (enclose it in quotations) in your reply. If I do not, then I know that you are hypocritical in your style of debating. Which is another flaw.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hypocritical
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=flaw
http://www.albion.com/netiquette/rule10.html
"If you do decide to inform someone of a mistake, point it out politely, and preferably by private email rather than in public."

Perhaps it would be good for some to review these rules for themselves? BEFORE they critique others for not using them? Or why is it only those who have agreed with me or wanted to admit they were in error have found a "personal" way of contacting me, without making such things "Public"?

And if/when they are made the “Rules” in these Forums I will be glad to read them in full… As long as you are going to try to live by the same standards you seem to want to set for me?

Thanks for the discussion.

Shall we continue?

Regards,
Gaar

I just want you to know that in no way was I debating with you. I wasn't asking for your opinion, and I wasn't expecting a reply. I don't really care what you have to say. That said, it's pretty clear that my post was a mockery of every debating foible in your arsenal. If you have a problem with my post, take the log out from thine own eye. Every single link in my first post to this thread is a result of me looking something up, scanning it just enough to make sure it contains something relevant to my point, and then copying the address. I don't care to debate with you when I could acheive the same end result by yelling at an encyclopedia.

See how I'm able to convey tone and emphasis just with the structure of my sentences, with word choice?

Edit: Post script- I didn't really read your last post, either. I scanned it, saw a few things. Once again, I don't really care what you said. Reply to this if you like, but I won't be reading it.

I expect he'll brush me off, too, once he gets around to actually reading my post. Weren't expecting a reply?!?!

Right...

At least I didn't just "brush you off" like you did me just now.

Regards,
Gaar

I just want you to know that in no way was I debating with you. I wasn't asking for your opinion, and I wasn't expecting a reply. I don't really care what you have to say. That said, it's pretty clear that my post was a mockery of every debating foible in your arsenal. If you have a problem with my post, take the log out from thine own eye. Every single link in my first post to this thread is a result of me looking something up, scanning it just enough to make sure it contains something relevant to my point, and then copying the address. I don't care to debate with you when I could acheive the same end result by yelling at an encyclopedia. Have a problem with it?

Sorry, I used it as an example of how thoughtful discourse should be had in a Forum like this, in my mind at least.

See how I'm able to convey tone and emphasis just with the structure of my sentences, with word choice? Not really... what you wrote sounded, to me, just as condescending as anything I write, perhaps you could explain the difference?

Edit: Post script- I didn't really read your last post, either. I scanned it, saw a few things. Once again, I don't really care what you said. Reply to this if you like, but I won't be reading it.
So you are trying to make an argument here without being fully informed of the Issues being discussed? And you believe this makes you look better, how?

Otherwise, why would you even bother mentioning such a thing?

Regards,
Gaar

Not sure exactly how you get "tone" from a Message Board, but ok...

Now perhaps you would be so kind as telling me exactly what "tone" YOU BELIEVE you set, for me, when you first posted here and what tone your continued posts have, from "my" perspective? Because I find it less than sincere to not address any of the specific grievences I have cited while you continue on with personal attacks against me that cite no "specific" post of mine to any of the "assertions" you have made...

It seems, without looking at the details yet, that the next post may actually have some substance that may be addressed, so you won't mind if I dismiss the rest of your rant in favor of showing you how thoughtful discourse can be had on a message Board, will you?

Regards,
Gaar


And thus we see, even when specifics and incidents are pointed out, Urantia II would rather play stupid, and dismiss content rather than address it. Thoughtful discourse? I'm not sure you would know it if it leaped off these boards and bit you on the ass.

Urantia II, I label thee hypocrite and:

http://test.air-power.us//gallery/albums/Nathi/troll.png

I'm going to suggest we all do ourselves, and the mods a favor, and discontinue feeding the beast. It's obvious his intent is not to get answers, but to troll, and bait, and try to hide his actions behind a lot of long-winded posts which prove and say nothing.

Ciao, mia bellas.

Enough.