NationStates Jolt Archive

Why was Aryan Socialist deleted? When I moved into The NSDAP late lastnight/early morning, their were two UN invaders in the region. One nation had only been there for 1 day and, the other had arrived 7 hours before me. They were not natives of The NSDAP. Myself and,three other nations arrived right before the UN update started. I was endorsed and, yes..I did eject the two invaders from the region.Considering the fact that they were invader nations, I did not think that I had to remove them from the ban list. I stayed in the region until 7:00am (EST) before I returned to The URAP. So now I ask you, why was my nation deleted?

1) When invading a region (as you admitted, you moved in) you must remove kicked nations from the banlist. This is to put invaders and invading defenders on equal ground and is established by over a year of precedent.

2) When establishing a password, it must be transmitted to natives.

3) Establishing a password and then leaving is considered extremely poor form.

There is a difference between invasion and griefing. Unfortunately, your actions constituted griefing.

There's more to the story than I care to post here. Who can I speak to privately in reference to this situation? Preferably a moderator A.S.A.P.

Thanks

Suggestion: Go on IRC on the server irc.esper.net and find the channel #themodcave. If I remember correctly, your problems will be addressed in person, by the moderator(s), and discretely. Doesn't give your appeal more chance of success of course, but it's more private than the forums, if you want that.

Thanks

1) When invading a region (as you admitted, you moved in) you must remove kicked nations from the banlist. This is to put invaders and invading defenders on equal ground and is established by over a year of precedent.

2) When establishing a password, it must be transmitted to natives.

3) Establishing a password and then leaving is considered extremely poor form.

There is a difference between invasion and griefing. Unfortunately, your actions constituted griefing.

Good evening,

1) "You must remove kicked nations from the banlist."

Scolo,it appears that you and The Most Glorious Hack are in direct contradiction.The Hack states in the 5th post in this thread that it is legal for an invader delegate to leave non-natives on the banlist: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=386268

If Aryan Socialist was relying on Hack's words to stay legal,it would make that charge against him invalid and Hack's fault.Either you or Hack are wrong and I respecfully submit Aryan Socialist be given a 2nd chance on that basis.

2) "When establishing a password, it must be transmitted to natives."

True,I agree but in this case a password was meaningless.There was only one native in the region,the founder.Aryan Socialist knew as you and I do,that a password is meaningless to any region founder.It was his intent to protect the region for the founder and knew the password meant nothing to him.I respectfully submit he also be cleared of this charge.

3) "Establishing a password and then leaving is considered extremely poor form."

Agreed,but as referenced in 2) above,this charge is also meaningless barring any complaints from the founder of the region in question.For all you and I know,he may have actually appreciated what Aryan Socialist did to the region.

Pending any complaints from the founder of the region in question,I respectfully submit that he also be cleared of this charge as well.

DC&H
"If the deat don't fit,you must aquit" I never liked Johnny Cochran but I like the quote. :=)

I do hope the mods will read the above post by DC&H carefully and give it due consideration. I've known Aryan Socialist a very long time and he has always been extremely careful to abide by the rules.

Based upon the facts as presented, I would submit that there is at least an element of doubt about the choice of criteria used as a justification for the deletion.

True,I agree but in this case a password was meaningless.There was only one native in the region,the founder.Aryan Socialist knew as you and I do,that a password is meaningless to any region founder.It was his intent to protect the region for the founder and knew the password meant nothing to him.

It doesn't matter if you think it doesn't matter. You have to get out the password whether it be to one native or one thousand. Period.

Good evening,

1) "You must remove kicked nations from the banlist."

Scolo,it appears that you and The Most Glorious Hack are in direct contradiction.The Hack states in the 5th post in this thread that it is legal for an invader delegate to leave non-natives on the banlist.


I don't see a discrepancy here. Scolo said you must remove nations from the banlist. Hack said you may leave non-natives on the banlist. Natives must be removed from the banlist.

Precisely. You're not revealing any great mod incompetency here.

I can't use irc.esper.net because, it isn't compatible with my computer. White pride world wide recommended that I go here: http://www.ircle.com/download.shtml They do not have this program for OSX in English. It seems as if I am left with no other alternative but, to discuss this matter here.
2) When establishing a password, it must be transmitted to natives
I know this. However, there was only one native in the region. That one native was my nation. Why would I distribute the password to myself?
Scolo said you must remove nations from the banlist. Hack said you may leave non-natives on the banlist. Natives must be removed from the banlist
I did not eject the native. I ejected the two invader nations only. I have read this thread (Forbidden Actions) http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=288255 and, no where in this thread does it state, that what I have done is forbidden or against the rules of NationStates.Since playing this game (2003), I have never been issued one warning. I have always abided by the rules of the game. The only thing I'm guilty of, is not providing myself with the password. Since when is that illegal? Based on the information that I have disclosed and, with all due fairness, I think a moderator or an adminstrator should reconsider reinstating my nation.

I don't see a discrepancy here. Scolo said you must remove nations from the banlist. Hack said you may leave non-natives on the banlist. Natives must be removed from the banlist.
I do see a discrepancy here and think DC&H is correct on that point.It looked as if Scolo was listing the reasons for the deat.
I received a tg from the mods when I inquired about the deat which is still in my inbox:

* NationStates Moderators
Received: 1 day ago

There are legitimate ways to remove nonnatives, and then there is griefing. He happened to choose the griefing method. Bad call.*

Why then was I told that he was deated for griefing for those ejections? Why did Scolo even mention the ejections in his post if he wasn't implying that they applied to Aryan Socialist?

Let me see if I can get the facts here straight. -The URAP- said, "I know this. However, there was only one native in the region. That one native was my nation. Why would I distribute the password to myself?" So you were the founder of that region, or am I getting the facts mixed up here? If that is the case, then why not ejecte the invaders with the founder? No problem there that I can see. Assuming that you are the founder. "There was only one native in the region, the founder."

I've a question tho, To the delegate, would anyone in the region be considered native if they were in the region when? When the delegate takes office, or when the delegate arrives in the region (based upon last arrival time of the involved nations) or is there some other criteria. I know that this was said before, but it would take too long to research the answer.

I can not disclose that information here. That is why I stated earlier There's more to the story than I care to post here. Who can I speak to privately in reference to this situation? Preferably a moderator A.S.A.P

Perhaps then a Getting Help Page Report would be more approrpriate?

There are three listed official methods of discusssing this: The forums, Getting Help Requests, and the IRC channel #themodcave. You insist on this being private, but so far haven't offered any alternative methods, despite the fact that GHRs and #themodcave are private.

How exactly are we to have this private conversation if you won't use our methods or provide your own?

With all due respect, if you would have read the front page, you would have seen what I wrote in reference to IRC.
I can't use irc.esper.net because, it isn't compatible with my computer. White pride world wide recommended that I go here: http://www.ircle.com/download.shtml They do not have this program for OSX in English. It seems as if I am left with no other alternative but, to discuss this matter here.
My computer is an iMac OSX 10.2.8 ircle is for mac users. If this were an option, I would have already downloaded it (A.S.A.P) and, used it to contact the moderators. If their is any other program that allows me to enter the mod cave, please tell me. If their isn't another method then I will try using the getting help page but, in due fairness, I think the moderator who deleted my nation should read what I have stated earlier in reference to this matter. Also, can I find out who filed a report against me and, what was said?

I know both Mozilla and Opera have IRC clients built into them (though my Opera irc client doesn't connect to esper.net), and I think Firefox might. Google search "Mac IRC" or something.

Edit: With a little fiddling, I got it to connect to Espernet. www.opera.com

I can't use irc.esper.net because, it isn't compatible with my computer. White pride world wide recommended that I go here: http://www.ircle.com/download.shtml They do not have this program for OSX in English. It seems as if I am left with no other alternative but, to discuss this matter here.
X-Chat Aqua (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xchataqua/)

I recommend this for Mac OSX users; I use it myself.

If, for some reason, that link doesn't work, then run a Google search on "X-Chat Aqua" (with quotation marks).

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

X-Chat Aqua (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xchataqua/)

I recommend this for Mac OSX users; I use it myself.

If, for some reason, that link doesn't work, then run a Google search on "X-Chat Aqua" (with quotation marks).

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

Finally, a Mac user! Thanks :)

With all due respect, if you would have read the front page, you would have seen what I wrote in reference to IRC.

With all due respect, you can still use the GHP. :rolleyes:

I have already said that I would. Now can you please not reply or post anything in thread anymore!

i'm going to bump this because i also want rule clairifaction

i'm going to bump this because i also want rule clairifaction

For what? This guy broke the rules. End of story.

For what? This guy broke the rules. End of story.
i believe you were asked to stay out of this by AS TH, also we still have 2 difrent rulings on the ejection of non natives by invaieders/"defenders", and i would like it cleard up

I sent a letter using the Getting Help page yesterday. I have yet to receive any response from a moderator.

There isn't really a question of general public interest here unless there's been a rules change and there are now policies against ejecting non-natives. If that has happened, then I'd like to know about it. Otherwise, feel free to delete this post.

That's new to me. I never knew there were new policies in reference to ejecting non-natives.

That's new to me. I never knew there were new policies in reference to ejecting non-natives.
This is the point Goober was trying to clarify. Notice the word unless.

Note: I am not the mod who handled this case, just clarifying a possible misunderstanding.

Sorry. I misread the post. How can I find out which moderator handled this case? How long does it take to receive a reply from a telegram that I submitted using the Getting Help page (in reference to this case)?

i believe you were asked to stay out of this by AS TH

Unless this is a moderator only topic, I am allowed to post here, especially in matters that relate to my gameplay (invader/defender) aspect in NationStates of which I am well-versed and take part in daily :rolleyes:

bump

bump

Not an exact quote, but the player said something like:

The only native was my own nation, why would I distribute the password to myself.

and also earlied seemed to imply that the only native was the founder. Why then wouldn't he just use his founder login to fix the mess?

Not an exact quote, but the player said something like:

and also earlied seemed to imply that the only native was the founder. Why then wouldn't he just use his founder login to fix the mess?
why should this matter sure it would be easier but insteed he got some defence practice, and the whole thing here is still we have 2 opasit mod rulings

bump

and the whole thing here is still we have 2 opasit mod rulings
Excuse me, but where are the opposite rulings? Here are the moderation posts in this thread:1) When invading a region (as you admitted, you moved in) you must remove kicked nations from the banlist. This is to put invaders and invading defenders on equal ground and is established by over a year of precedent.

2) When establishing a password, it must be transmitted to natives.

3) Establishing a password and then leaving is considered extremely poor form.

There is a difference between invasion and griefing. Unfortunately, your actions constituted griefing.
Scolopendra gave his ruling in the second post, and that should have been the end of it. The remainder of the Mod posts in this thread were provided as helpful advice on how to contact the mods privately, or to clarify a misunderstanding between two players. Nowhere in this thread is there any disagreement with Scolopendra's original ruling, nor have I seen any other discussion privately. Perhaps then a Getting Help Page Report would be more approrpriate?There are three listed official methods of discussing this...X-Chat Aqua (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xchataqua/) ...This is the point Goober was trying to clarify. Notice the word unless...
I'll give you a chance to provide evidence of such a disagreement, either publicly or privately, and failing that this thread will be closed

The opposite ruling Right thinking Whites was refering to is the fifth post in this thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=386268

Where The Most Glorious Hack states that what Aryan Socialist did was legal:

"NON-Native Delegates: Must distribute the password to all natives (regardless of most recent activity). Must remove natives from the ban list immediately. Can kick any number of non-natives and leave them banned."

Ubedarns right on the money fris, i still dont under stand this deat or which rule to go by

:rolleyes: was this mod Frisbeeteria (yes I am out to get you banned Frisbeeteria)

:rolleyes: was this mod Frisbeeteria (yes I am out to get you banned Frisbeeteria)

Your attempt to get (of all people) a moderator banned from Nation States is going to fail.

:rolleyes: was this mod Frisbeeteria (yes I am out to get you banned Frisbeeteria)

Knock it off.

I must thank you for announcing your bias in this matter, Bulgers. I am certain that the rest of us shall certainly give your future complaints about Frisbeeteria the attention they are due.

having had a need for clairifacation today i went to the mod cave to ask for it
and this is what was said

(15:53:02) -ChanServ- Welcome to #TheModCave! Here you may request help from the NationStates Moderators. Please make your request and wait for a moderator to reply. Once your request has been dealt with, please leave the channel. Do not idle. For chat, try #nationstates. Please use the Getting Help page for non-time sensitive requests.
(15:53:18) (WPWW) quick question on ejections/banning
(15:53:43) —› quit: (Cogitation) (Cogitation@h-67-101-197-77.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net) (Ping timeout)
(15:53:44) (WPWW) non-native may be left on the ban list and have no need for the new pw right
(15:54:35) (@Sirocco) That's right.
ok now i realy see no reson why AS was deated

Is it even remotely possible that one of the people he kicked was in fact a native? Maybe was there for a long time, just came back from an extended vacation, and to AS would look like an invader? Just to make an observation, if that was the case, AS would have ejected 33% of the population... just trying to offer a suggestion...

If Crazy Girl can find some XML's on this region that would be helpful... *makes puppydog eyes*

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

Is it even remotely possible that one of the people he kicked was in fact a native? Maybe was there for a long time, just came back from an extended vacation, and to AS would look like an invader? Just to make an observation, if that was the case, AS would have ejected 33% of the population... just trying to offer a suggestion...

If Crazy Girl can find some XML's on this region that would be helpful... *makes puppydog eyes*

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*
no they were defenitly commie invaiders in a nazi region

edit: i doubt CG will help, as she recently invaided a nazi region last night

edit: i doubt CG will help, as she recently invaided a nazi region last night

This is the moderation forum; gameplay involvement doesn't mean you can label someone unhelpful. :rolleyes:

yes th your right, i'm sorry CG, also i have put in a request to Ballotonia for any xml's of The NSDAP

I haven't read the thread in its entirety, so I'm placing XMLs here per request and will leave interpretation in context of NS rules to others.

XML October 25, 2004:<NAME>The NSDAP</NAME>
<FACTBOOK>Welcome to The Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP), National Socialist German Worker's Party, aka the &quot;Nazi&quot; party.</FACTBOOK>
<NUMNATIONS>1</NUMNATIONS>
<NATIONS>the_nsdap_guard</NATIONS>
<DELEGATE>0</DELEGATE>
<DELEGATEVOTES>0</DELEGATEVOTES>
<FOUNDER>the_nsdap</FOUNDER>

XML April 5, 2005:<NAME>The NSDAP</NAME>
<FACTBOOK>&quot;Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.&quot; - Adolf Hitler</FACTBOOK>
<NUMNATIONS>1</NUMNATIONS>
<NATIONS>salute_hitler</NATIONS>
<DELEGATE>0</DELEGATE>
<DELEGATEVOTES>0</DELEGATEVOTES>
<FOUNDER>salute_hitler</FOUNDER>

Despite me pulling XMLs every 3 weeks or so, the above are 'consecutive', meaning the region did not exist for a few months in between. Foundership of the_nsdap_guard goes back to at least Feb 2004 when I started archiving XMLs. All XMLs I have show only one occupant: a founder.

Ballotonia

From what I can see here, Aryan Socialist did indeed break the letter of the rules, but a deletion seems a bit over the top. I would have thought that given the circumstances a simple warning and removing the password would surfice (unless Aryan Socialist has past warnings, in which case it is justified, but no one has said that is the case and so I assume not).

I would say not a mod, but I won't because it's silly. Do I look like a mod? Do I have "NationStates Moderator Team" under my name? No? Thankyou.[/minirant]

From what I can see here, Aryan Socialist did indeed break the letter of the rules, but a deletion seems a bit over the top. I would have thought that given the circumstances a simple warning and removing the password would surfice (unless Aryan Socialist has past warnings, in which case it is justified, but no one has said that is the case and so I assume not).

I would say not a mod, but I won't because it's silly. Do I look like a mod? Do I have "NationStates Moderator Team" under my name? No? Thankyou.[/minirant]
wich rule? not telling himself the pw

From what I can see here, Aryan Socialist did indeed break the letter of the rules, but a deletion seems a bit over the top. I would have thought that given the circumstances a simple warning and removing the password would surfice (unless Aryan Socialist has past warnings, in which case it is justified, but no one has said that is the case and so I assume not)

Aryan Socialist (the original) had been a member of NationStates since 2003. Prior to this. I had never broken any game rules. I had never been issued a warning, the entire time I have played this game. My record was spotless.

bump

Just a forum mod here, so I don't have access to all the info...

But...

1) Foundership resides with the founding nation, not the player, not the player's other nations. This has come up before, when people have had their founding nation DEATed for rulebreaking and wanted foundership passed to their remaining nation.

2) This has also come up re: clearing spam. People's secondary nations got in trouble for posting "clearing spam" on the RMB.



I don't know what decision may be made regarding reinstatement: generally speaking, rulebreakers are not reinstated. You need a game mod's opinion there.

For future reference: Only use your Founder nation when using a Founder power.

with due respect KAT the only thing i see that he did wrong is pwp the region with out sending him self the pw, the other thing not un banning non natives is somthing i want clarifided by admin if needed, also i would like to know why it was a single strike deat with now warning when it seems that others would just get say a warning and un boot

with due respect KAT the only thing i see that he did wrong is pwp the region with out sending him self the pw, the other thing not un banning non natives is somthing i want clarifided by admin if needed, also i would like to know why it was a single strike deat with now warning when it seems that others would just get say a warning and un boot

Right thinking whites, you are not listening.

I UNDERSTAND that the PLAYER who passworded the region and kicked everyone out is the same person who runs the founding nation.

I am telling you that ONLY the founding nation is permitted to kick a native. If he passworded the region and kicked the founding nation, even though he IS the founding nation's player, it is a problem because it appears to be a griefing. Obviously, it was reported as such, and obviously, the mod who handled the case originally looked at it and saw it as a griefing.

If there is confusion about what is going on here (and remember, I do not have all the information nor did I handle it) the confusion was caused because of the actions of Aryan Socialists. In other words, whatever secrecy he was trying to maintain by having a puppet do his main nation's dirty work would seem to have backfired spectacularly.

I detect a thread of "you guys are picking on us" here, unless I am mistaken -- I am saying that to all appearances, AS acted like a griefer, and therefore got treated that way, if this is everything that happened.

Kat is correct. We've already told Aryan Socialists in #themodcave what the problems were and he accepted it. I don't see any reason to continue this. Locked.

*does the lockomotion*