NationStates Jolt Archive

The following log is taken from irc.esper.net:#nationstates_general and edited by myself for clarity and brevity.
[Mar 30 22:12:01] <Cogitation> I'm curious: Of those present and active: Who prefers social threads and who prefers debate threads? ...and who consider themselves centrist in this regard?
[Mar 30 22:12:46] <Randomea> In general?
[Mar 30 22:13:04] <Cogitation> Yes, the "General" board.
[Mar 30 22:13:05] <Randomea> I tend to avoid the debate cos the views are so extreme
[Mar 30 22:13:30] <NeoMetal> In general forum? I prefer Social Threads at this point. I did think they were dumb but after awhile all the debates are the same and don't go anywhere anyways
[Mar 30 22:13:41] <Randomea> I do pop in occasionally, but it's more 'how does the title grab me?'
[Mar 30 22:13:47] <NeoMetal> So by now I long for the days of word games
[Mar 30 22:15:49] * Katganistan removes Mod Hat for a moment
[Mar 30 22:16:05] --- Katganistan is now known as Kat_the_Generalite
[Mar 30 22:17:10] <Randomea> Yey
[Mar 30 22:17:20] <Kat_the_Generalite> I don't mind social threads per se -- but it seems to me that the same few people are starting MANY of them, and most are very specialized like, "What should i have for dinner?"
[Mar 30 22:17:32] <Kat_the_Generalite> Or cliqish.
[Mar 30 22:17:51] * Cogitation nods and looks around for anyone else with an opinion.
[Mar 30 22:17:52] <Randomea> Then why move the pass the love thread?
[Mar 30 22:18:03] <Kat_the_Generalite> I wouldn't mind it, if it didn't seem to me that they are trying to flood the forum.
[Mar 30 22:18:07] <Randomea> Anyone could join in and be welcomed :(
[Mar 30 22:18:07] <NeoMetal> Some of them were kind of those clubs...but hey, I just didn't go into them
[Mar 30 22:18:07] --- Kat_the_Generalite is now known as Katganistan
[Mar 30 22:18:19] * Katganistan hugs Randomea
[Mar 30 22:18:45] <Randomea> I tried entering the PC once...got totally lost
[Mar 30 22:18:49] --- TheCentipedeClasses is now known as Scolopendra
[Mar 30 22:19:20] <Cogitation> Entering the PC?
[Mar 30 22:19:30] <Cogitation> Elaborate, please.
[Mar 30 22:19:36] <Katganistan> Paradise Club
[Mar 30 22:20:00] <Cogitation> Ah, yes, now I remember.
[Mar 30 22:20:05] <Katganistan> I've been in there too.... tons of one line posts, impossible to follow, and much innuendo, I thought.
[Mar 30 22:20:29] <Randomea> Well it turned out there were three plotlines at once...I followed the dead one.
[Mar 30 22:20:30] <Katganistan> It didn't appeal to me, but hey..... doesn;t have to.
[Mar 30 22:21:12] <Cogitation> Well, as a Moderator, I've started to take notice of rather hostile bickering between those whom I shall loosely call debaters and those whom I shall loosely call socializers. (I hope that the meanings of these terms are self-evident; stop me if they're not.)
[Mar 30 22:21:36] <Randomea> Well, it was actually when I did a bitch fight over Spaam with Tink once...I hadn't actually seen his pic but thought it would be fun, and it got moved there, so I sort of rped my way from there, got stuck in some cave alone
[Mar 30 22:22:24] <NeoMetal> I have no problems with the debaters really...except that the debates usually seem to turn into shout matches, and besides its usually on a topic that no one will change their opinion on anyways so its all kind pointless
[Mar 30 22:22:41] <Randomea> Hmm...basically as I said I don't pay attention
[Mar 30 22:23:05] <Randomea> It does get annoying to see multiple similar themed topics but that applies to both
[Mar 30 22:23:06] <NeoMetal> I don't anymore...I haven't gone on the forum that much since jolt\
[Mar 30 22:24:36] <Cogitation> NeoMetal: Speaking philosophically, rather than officially, debate can be useful to examine ones own arguments and beliefs, thus convincing your opposition is not strictly a necessity. In other words, I'm of the opinion that you don't really understand your own arguments unless you understand the arguments of your opposition.
[Mar 30 22:24:36] <NeoMetal> well.../as/ much
[Mar 30 22:24:47] <Cogitation> But, getting back to the issue of debating vs. socializing....
[Mar 30 22:25:02] <NeoMetal> Maybe. But when its done over and over again...
[Mar 30 22:25:13] * Cogitation nods and thinks.
[Mar 30 22:25:30] --- Katganistan is now known as DevilsAdvocate
[Mar 30 22:25:32] <NeoMetal> I never see any new topics...just "Christian vs Atheist" And "Right vs Left" usually
[Mar 30 22:25:43] <Randomea> Heh I love doing that Kat
[Mar 30 22:25:54] <DevilsAdvocate> The same could be said for "X's Appreciation Thread" and "Ask a...."
[Mar 30 22:26:05] --- DevilsAdvocate is now known as Katganistan
[Mar 30 22:26:10] <Katganistan> ;)
[Mar 30 22:26:35] <NeoMetal> Sure...but at least they had more comedic value
[Mar 30 22:27:14] <Cogitation> I'd like to think that I'm a neutral party in this conflict. That said, I do think both debaters and socializers could do with a bit more interesting variety of topics in their respective tastes.
[Mar 30 22:27:33] <Cogitation> Anyway, I've recently posted two things in "Moderation", but I figure they could use repeating here:
[Mar 30 22:27:34] <Katganistan> I'd like to see crossing over more...
[Mar 30 22:27:54] <Randomea> Heh, well I just posted in the pontiff shooting one :)
[Mar 30 22:27:59] <Katganistan> Debaters loosening up a little and chatting... socializers coming and debating.
[Mar 30 22:28:05] <NeoMetal> I agree. Although I don't care about the social threads much either. I don't know. I just get annoyed reading the debate threads
[Mar 30 22:28:36] <NeoMetal> I guess my opinion is both have gotten pretty bland but at leased I don't get ticked off reading social threads
[Mar 30 22:28:53] <Cogitation> 1) Those who debate need to realize that socialization topics are not garbage and should avoid being disrespectful (or, at least, avoid being uncivil) towards those who prefer to socialize. Conversely, those who socialize need to realize that debate topics are not garbage and should avoid being disrespectful (or uncivil) towards those who debate.
[Mar 30 22:29:29] <Randomea> Well saying a debate is garbage...I don't think any socialite would say that
[Mar 30 22:30:01] <NeoMetal> And here we are watching a debate about debating. Cosmic.
[Mar 30 22:30:05] <Cogitation> Randomea: I admit that I'm making up the words, but that's what I perceive the sentiment to be from some of the posts I've read in Moderation.
[Mar 30 22:30:23] <Katganistan> I'd personally (player speaking, not mod) prefer to see fewer threads that are 'homages' to other threads -- especially since they tend to go only a dozen or so posts.
[Mar 30 22:30:39] <Spaam> debate is awesome... 'cept when its dumb
[Mar 30 22:30:48] <Spaam> and debate is always better than socialisation
[Mar 30 22:30:54] <Spaam> even htough i'm more a socialite
[Mar 30 22:31:06] <Randomea> I tried putting new threads in, it's funny what takes
[Mar 30 22:31:23] <Randomea> I tried to find who had ands and stuff...didn't even get a reply from LP
[Mar 30 22:31:28] <Randomea> *bands
[Mar 30 22:32:11] <Katganistan> ;) as a mod, I'd prefer not to have to put out so many forum fires.
[Mar 30 22:32:23] <Cogitation> Well, I'm usually an advocate of balance: I don't want "General" to be too serious, as being too uptight is never good (then again, people areexpected to have lives outside of NationStates). On the other hand, a forum that isn't serious at all has no substance, and that (in my opinion) is also bad.
[Mar 30 22:32:27] <Randomea> You think you have fires?
[Mar 30 22:32:51] <Randomea> You should see my forums right now, even the new members are coming in, seeing an old post and flaming
[Mar 30 22:32:56] <NeoMetal> (then again, people are expected to have lives outside of NationStates). < Thats unreasonable!
[Mar 30 22:33:00] <NeoMetal> jk....mostly
[Mar 30 22:33:05] * Cogitation laughs.
[Mar 30 22:33:17] <Katganistan> Life, what life?
[Mar 30 22:33:28] * Katganistan thinks hard
[Mar 30 22:33:29] <Randomea> NS is my life outside my normal online life, my bit on the side
[Mar 30 22:33:34] <Katganistan> Oh, you mean that working stuff?
[Mar 30 22:33:37] <Randomea> Which is pretty sad
[Mar 30 22:33:43] <Katganistan> the school thing?
[Mar 30 22:33:43] <Katganistan> ;)
[Mar 30 22:33:54] <Randomea> I'm unemployed right now :p
[Mar 30 22:34:20] <Cogitation> Anyway, to reiterate point #1: Debaters: Be nice to the socializers. Socializers: Be nice to the debaters.
[Mar 30 22:36:38] <Cogitation> Point 2) There is some tolerance given to whimsical topics. However, the NationStates forums are, for the most part, themed on a political game. So, in the event of a conflict, official preference is going to be shown towards political topics.
[Mar 30 22:39:02] --> Imnsvale (Waukeen@pcp01308962pcs.sabrna01.az.comcast.net) has joined #nationstates_general
[Mar 30 22:39:08] <Katganistan> IMNS!
[Mar 30 22:39:16] <Cogitation> Good Evening, Imnsvale.
[Mar 30 22:39:19] * Katganistan hugs!
[Mar 30 22:39:24] <Cogitation> You just missed a debate about debating.
[Mar 30 22:39:55] <Katganistan> Now we master debaters are socializing. ;)
[Mar 30 22:40:00] <Spaam> hehe
[Mar 30 22:40:08] <Spaam> and putting up with Spaam :p
[Mar 30 22:40:18] * Cogitation wonders if he should post this in "Moderation" or "General".
After that point, we started getting into a mini-debate over where this should be posted. Little was added to the original discussion.

To reiterate, I'd like people to remember two things: First, there is a place in "General" for both serious and whimsical topics. However, this is not carte blanche approval for all whimsical topics; there do have to be limits. Second, in the event of a conflict, official preference is going to be shown towards serious topics.

Again, I'd like to ask everyone to remain civil towards each other. Even in matters such as debate threads versus social threads, you do have someone with an opposing viewpoint and you have to regulate your own conduct; you don't want Moderators to regulate it for you, because it's not pleasant (especially not for you).

"Think about it for a moment."

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408678 ;)

*applauds Cog & Kat*
A very balanced fair approach to these current situations. You guys lead by example and I know I speak for many when I say you are respected and appreciated. That goes for you too Fris regarding your courteous open minded management of these same issues.

I don't know what you mods think of me, in fact I rather worry that I'm disliked for my lewd posts (hence the namesake) but I do have some opinions on this topic which I feel are quite valid. I posted, a little hastily since it may have served a purpose better here, this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8576370&postcount=48) rant in the thread currently stickied in general. I want to be more active in the discussion of how general is taken care of, and if you feel that my opinons will be valued - I will stop in later tonight, and continue to come by and debate this issue until it has been properly dealt with.

Thanks,

Lascivious Maximus ;)

Ahem. I've decided to express my opinion...I know you're all gasping in surprise at this. :p

Let's take a look at two different types of threads. One is a debate thread and the other is a socialization thread.

Example: "Debate on Gay Marriage"

Example: "Appreciation Thread for ______"

Are they excessive?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I did a mental tally and I've easily seen four or five times more stupid and spammy gay marriage threads than Appreciation threads. And I've seen a lot of Appreciation-type threads over many months. :D

Are they useful?

I'm pretty much on the fence on which is more useful. The debate threads allows people to exchange ideas and improve or sharpen their debating skills. The socialization threads build a sense of community and tend to lessen the amount of flames and rudeness by the participants of said threads. I don't see that either thread type is significantly more useful than the other, and I've done a lot of both debating and socializing.

Are they abused?

The debate threads are often heavily abused by trolls and flamebaiters. The socialization threads are often heavily abused by postwhores and spammers. Again...not really a significant difference...in terms of the amount of rule-breaking.

I think the issue arises because of differing perceptions on the part of the posters. Many of the debaters think the socialization threads are useless and pathetic attempts at finding emotional fulfillment. Many of the socializers think that the debate threads are useless intellectual games equivalent to comparing penis size. When I'm feeling cynical, I tend to think they're both correct. When I'm in a better mood, I tend to think that they are wrong and that both have perfectly appropriate activities to engage in. :)

Cog, since everyone is replying to this thread in General on Fris's Sticky, do you think it might be a good idea to move this in there as well? Some people must be apprehensive to come in the mod forum and have yet to see this thread. What do you think? If you dont move it, please see the comments on the thread in General I mentioned previously. Thank you.


*Thinks about for a moment*......always.

Er...didn't realise you were putting the log in.
The 'fluffle' was part of my Pass the Love On protest...but nvm.

Um, well in the same topic LM was in I got annoyed at someone just saying 'such and such posts are stupid, glad you got rid of them.' And I remembered you were making a topic here so..I thought I'll put a link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8578856&postcount=60). Ok..can I go now? Thanks.

I don't mean to tell ou how to do your jobs or anything, but most forums tend to regard having multiple, current threads about the exact same topic as 'spam'. They are invariably merged, closed, redirected or what-have-you. Why is it that so many threads can sometimes exist on the same subject?

This site is and has always been a political site. It's the very foundation of the site. Whether it be role-play, game-play, the UN, etc, etc..General to me has always been a place for those who wish to discuss real world politics instead of pretending a.k.a. role-play.

I know it's not likely to even be considered, but why not end all the arguing over this issue and just consider it, that is all I ask, just consider the possibility of doing away with General all together and re-opening "forum 7" for the people who want to be "social" and talk about silly and frivolous things? Then open a section on the forum that is called "serious discussion" or "politics"?

Then those of us who get so fed up with the small talk would not have to see it. Those who get fed up with political debate and serious discussions would not have to see it either. It's a win, win situation.

I know it would take two seconds to do this from a technical aspect. Could maybe a moderator just even bring it up with Max or [violet]?

So many arguments about the merit of threads would be solved. It would totally take away so much work for the moderators. I think it's a good idea. It makes the most sense in my opinion. Could you please just consider it?

Thank You.

So basically you advocate splitting general into 2 parts... the socializing side and the debating side? Sounds intreeging (sp?) IMO... however, the problem is that there will be a large period of time when people will be wondering around aimlessly, not to mention it may make the "war" between the two worse than the 70' Rock vs Disco "war"

Just my 2 cents... but otherwise, sounds cool

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

We arent talking about spliting anything. We are takling about members being less controversial to each type of thread. I prefer social threads, but that doesnt mean I dont debate or that I have anything against debate threads. The people who enjoy social threads have no problems with the debate threads. We dont want to split the forum, quite the opposite. We want to live in harmony and all be able to enjoy our time on NS. Why do you think the Pass the Love thread was so important to so many? Because it spread good feelings and kind words.

So basically you advocate splitting general into 2 parts... the socializing side and the debating side? Sounds intreeging (sp?) IMO... however, the problem is that there will be a large period of time when people will be wondering around aimlessly, not to mention it may make the "war" between the two worse than the 70' Rock vs Disco "war"

Just my 2 cents... but otherwise, sounds cool

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

Well as I see it, it would end the conflict all together. The social threads and spam-lite etc, etc PC club all that would have it's own forum, they would never even need to enter the political forum if they did not wish to do so. Same on the other side, people interested in only politics and serious discussions on issues of the day would have their own forum and would never need enter the social forum if they did not wish to. I think it would in all reality end the fighting. The mods would still have to mod because on both sides of the fence there would still be trolls and flames and flame baiting on both sides of the fence. But it wouldn't be on this subject.

We arent talking about spliting anything. We are takling about members being less controversial to each type of thread. I prefer social threads, but that doesnt mean I dont debate or that I have anything against debate threads. The people who enjoy social threads have no problems with the debate threads. We dont want to split the forum, quite the opposite. We want to live in harmony and all be able to enjoy our time on NS. Why do you think the Pass the Love thread was so important to so many? Because it spread good feelings and kind words.

I would suggest that probably a lot of people would agree with you, however the people only interested in politics and serious discussion would not. Just from what I've seen. It would also go a long way in keeping the spam and socializing out of serious discussion topics. Because then there would be a legitimate complaint that the post doesn't belong in said forum.

Unless you get the trouble makers intent on ruffling feathers... IE, have person from group A intentinoally post on group B's side of the fence, or vice-versa

I agree, it will kill off much of the hostility, but the bit that remains, might very well get worse

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

Aside from the annoyance of Ask a Thread copy cats and the obvious topics made just to aggravate people, there should be no hostility between members as far as social threads vs debate. Have any of you checked our Max Barrys website? Hes a funny fellow.....he jokes all over the place. I cant understand why theres such a thick layer of bitterness in this forum. Check out Max's page and then read the words under the NS logo. And if the fluffle is such an abomination....why is it an option? Would people rather there be sour puss smilies and frowny ones??

Unless you get the trouble makers intent on ruffling feathers... IE, have person from group A intentinoally post on group B's side of the fence, or vice-versa

I agree, it will kill off much of the hostility, but the bit that remains, might very well get worse

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

The mods are not stupid by any means. If a person decided to do that in a trolling way or trying to inflame the situation, the mods could treat it the same as if you tried to start an "Ask a German" thread being in II. Sure, first time or two the mods would issue a warning, but if you kept doing it, they would delete you. It would protect both sides. I recall about, oh over a year ago I think, actually it may be longer, Beeker was still around, so it was a while ago. Any way, he and his ilk decided to go do exactly what is being suggested here in II. They all got warned or deleted. This is a situation the mods have dealt with before. Same rule would apply. There would not even be a need for new rules.

The following is a player opinion post.

The people who enjoy social threads have no problems with the debate threads.
Sorry, don't see it that way. If the social folks kept their social comments in the social threads (and the debators kept their debates in the debate threads, which they mostly do), this issue would never have come up.

My problems comes when a debate (or even more annoying, a moderation topic) is interrupted with totally off-topic social spam and conversations and fluffles, it totally breaks the rhythm of the discussion. See the "Ask A ..." & "Appreciation" Threads (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408234&page=2) topic in General for a perfect example.

I just don't see it. I'm not accustomed to being in the middle of conversations in real life and having a few strangers suddenly stand between us having a totally unrelated conversation, then stuff flowers in our lapels and walk away. I consider such behavior extremely rude in real life, and I see no compelling reason why I shouldn't have the same opinion on the forums.

Conversely, if I'm having a light-hearted conversation with friends, I'd be very annoyed with the street preacher who stepped into our Star Wars discussion with dire warnings about going to Hell. The least he could expect is ignoring, and he'd probably get my drink in his face as well.

Topic hijacking is rudeness. I don't care if your intent is to make people happy or not. The socialites need to recognize that not everyone feels better when fluffled, and that some of us will "accidentally" stomp on the toes of anyone who tells us to "have a GREAT day!"

I don't come to NationStates for fluffles for the same reason that I don't visit teenage chat rooms or type in AOLish teen-speek. It doesn't suit my style, and I avoid it. Can't you grant me/us that?

Well said Frisbeeteria! Couldn't agree more!

The mods are not stupid by any means. If a person decided to do that in a trolling way or trying to inflame the situation, the mods could treat it the same as if you tried to start an "Ask a German" thread being in II. Sure, first time or two the mods would issue a warning, but if you kept doing it, they would delete you. It would protect both sides. I recall about, oh over a year ago I think, actually it may be longer, Beeker was still around, so it was a while ago. Any way, he and his ilk decided to go do exactly what is being suggested here in II. They all got warned or deleted. This is a situation the mods have dealt with before. Same rule would apply. There would not even be a need for new rules.
Emph mine

See though... I am saying (and you inadvertantly agreed with me) that the mods WILL have an increased workload until things settled down... for some of the "old fasioned" posters may mix up which forum is which (that is not a knock at the Generalites... but I know myself, I am a creature of habit... I'll elaborate if requested) and then start getting in trouble with the now overworked mods.

I still think it is a cool idea... I am just saying there will be some setup issues, and it is not just a simple switch out/switch in idea as proposed (recall... I am a forum admin for my region)

As to Fris's player comments...
Topic hijacking is rudeness. I don't care if your intent is to make people happy or not. The socialites need to recognize that not everyone feels better when fluffled, and that some of us will "accidentally" stomp on the toes of anyone who tells us to "have a GREAT day!"

I have to say... I quite agree with that... ask anyone in TGE... I am the first to pull out the chain saw when posts vear off topic...

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

Good points Fris. Youre right. I was saying that I think the advocates of social threads are more easy going and arent ready to bite others heads off at the drop of a hat. Yes indeed the Ask a Thread copy cats are rediculous, and I see exactly why the interruption in the sticky was inappropriate. I guess thats why I suggested the Chit Chat thread. People are talking about spliting the forum....thats not necessary. Give people a place IN General to carry on and you will see a nose dive in complaints and spam.
Why should the players who debate AND socialize be forced outside of General ? You can be passing the love in one thread, and expressing why you think Bush is an asshole the next thread over. Spamming interruptions=bad, hijacking=bad, socializing and being friendly=good. It cant be just one or the other people.

Emph mine

See though... I am saying (and you inadvertantly agreed with me) that the mods WILL have an increased workload until things settled down... for some of the "old fasioned" posters may mix up which forum is which (that is not a knock at the Generalites... but I know myself, I am a creature of habit... I'll elaborate if requested) and then start getting in trouble with the now overworked mods.

I still think it is a cool idea... I am just saying there will be some setup issues, and it is not just a simple switch out/switch in idea as proposed (recall... I am a forum admin for my region)

I've been around NS for quite some time, if the players seen fit to do this, then they would have a SBM wish! I don't think you'd see many do it. The ones who may do it, are probably players the mods would of had to deal with any way, sooner or later.

It wouldn't be confusing because "General" would be no more. You shouldn't I would think mix up a forum called "Forum 7" (just a suggestion on what to call it) could be called "Social club" whatever.. and a forum being called "Politics" or "Serious Discussion" I would agree with you if the forum was still called "General" but the whole point would be there would be no more General. So creature of habit or not, you would surely still be able to read.. ;)

Uhm... SBM? Care to un-acronymize that one for me? I use a lot of acronyhms... but that was OMH!

I am in general agreeing with the two of you... there should be some sort of split... but I am also playing a bit of devil's advocate in noting it wont be an easy thing to do.

Personally... I joined NS for the political side of it... it eventually pulled me into socializing, but I am not a big fan of all the "feel good" stuff that occurs... so that is why I'd like it split off a bit... this way, I can get involoved in the politics without the rest

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

Good points Fris. Youre right. I was saying that I think the advocates of social threads are more easy going and arent ready to bite others heads off at the drop of a hat. Yes indeed the Ask a Thread copy cats are rediculous, and I see exactly why the interruption in the sticky was inappropriate. I guess thats why I suggested the Chit Chat thread. People are talking about spliting the forum....thats not necessary. Give people a place IN General to carry on and you will see a nose dive in complaints and spam.
Why should the players who debate AND socialize be forced outside of General ? You can be passing the love in one thread, and expressing why you think Bush is an asshole the next thread over. Spamming interruptions=bad, hijacking=bad, socializing and being friendly=good. It cant be just one or the other people.

Peechland, I think you're missing the point. You could still do both. But they would be in separate parts of the forum. Just like you wouldn't go into the UN forum and start to :fluffle: right? Same thing would apply, but you can always still go into the UN forum if you have in game UN issues, right?

That's the problem with General, it's too General. The social crowd needs to be separate from the debate people. Yet there is nothing stopping you for going to both forums as you wish as long as you don't start a PC club in the debate/discussion forum and you don't start a thread on why Bush is the best president ever in the social forum. Separate but equal.

Uhm... SBM?

Suicide By Mod!

Peechland, I think you're missing the point. You could still do both. But they would be in separate parts of the forum. Just like you wouldn't go into the UN forum and start to :fluffle: right? Same thing would apply, but you can always still go into the UN forum if you have in game UN issues, right?

That's the problem with General, it's too General. The social crowd needs to be separate from the debate people. Yet there is nothing stopping you for going to both forums as you wish as long as you don't start a PC club in the debate/discussion forum and you don't start a thread on why Bush is the best president ever in the social forum. Separate but equal.

But we dont want to be outcast. We DO DEBATE. But hell, not everyone wants to debate all day long. Like I said before, if there was a thread just for socializing, people could teeter tot back and forth and stay out of the debate threads. Hang out, take a break from debate if it gets too heated, then resume your debate after youve chilled out a bit. Which btw might help curb some of the heat that gets turned on in debates about religion or politics. I keep saying the same thing and its like people only read bits and pieces. We are trying to be part of the solution, not just whinning and saying "but we want this and that." I'm tired of repeating myself and I guess others are too afraid to voice their feelings to the mods. I dunno. I think I'll just test out a thread labeled "Socialize here" or something. I posted an example of one somewhere and it welcomed people to the thread to hang out and asked them to REFRAIN FROM SPAMMING DEBATE THREADS, to come to this thread instead. I should try it...see how it goes.

Like I said before, if there was a thread just for socializing, people could teeter tot back and forth and stay out of the debate threads.
Peech, darlin', do I really need to provide links to all the 'social' threads that already exist in General? Look at the threads which we happily lock at 1300 and let you merrily recreate them ... Paradise Club the Royalty threads the "we're not Royalty" threads TIN's random threads Tink's "Somebody cheer me up" threadAll this from memory, without opening General. I'm sure I could find dozens more.

Socialites don't stay in social threads. That's a fact. They socialize everywhere and anywhere, including the stickies and Moderation. Look at the gawd-awful NS Player pics thread sometime - Erastide gets a mod to wipe ALL posts everytime she gets a chance to delve through the twenty pages of crap looking for the 12 actual pictures.

I don't see any reason as a player or a moderator to be more accomodating to something we've already defined as spam. Can you explain it to me? Honest to God, I just don't get it.

Peech, darlin', do I really need to provide links to all the 'social' threads that already exist in General? Look at the threads which we happily lock at 1300 and let you merrily recreate them ... Paradise Club the Royalty threads the "we're not Royalty" threads TIN's random threads Tink's "Somebody cheer me up" threadAll this from memory, without opening General. I'm sure I could find dozens more.

Socialites don't stay in social threads. That's a fact. They socialize everywhere and anywhere, including the stickies and Moderation. Look at the gawd-awful NS Player pics thread sometime - Erastide gets a mod to wipe ALL posts everytime she gets a chance to delve through the twenty pages of crap looking for the 12 actual pictures.

I don't see any reason as a player or a moderator to be more accomodating to something we've already defined as spam. Can you explain it to me? Honest to God, I just don't get it.


"Socialites"....we sound like a parasite or a virus./sad voice...

I was just trying to be helpful by making suggestions to appease both "sides". I wish we werent so divided. But thank you, Cog and Kat for the courtesy youve displayed.

Bah.....go read my post titled "My Vision" in the mod theme song thread. I'm off to bed....

But we dont want to be outcast. We DO DEBATE. But hell, not everyone wants to debate all day long. Like I said before, if there was a thread just for socializing, people could teeter tot back and forth and stay out of the debate threads. Hang out, take a break from debate if it gets too heated, then resume your debate after youve chilled out a bit. Which btw might help curb some of the heat that gets turned on in debates about religion or politics. I keep saying the same thing and its like people only read bits and pieces. We are trying to be part of the solution, not just whinning and saying "but we want this and that." I'm tired of repeating myself and I guess others are too afraid to voice their feelings to the mods. I dunno. I think I'll just test out a thread labeled "Socialize here" or something. I posted an example of one somewhere and it welcomed people to the thread to hang out and asked them to REFRAIN FROM SPAMMING DEBATE THREADS, to come to this thread instead. I should try it...see how it goes.
Here's an exerice I want you to try. Take you hand, and move it the short distance required to manipulate either a mouse, touchpad or trackerball. Good?
Now move the short distance required to place your pointer over a bit of hyperlink. There? Good.
Now, click the link.
Got it? Good.

Splitting forums or whatever won't prevent you from debating or socializing. At it will change is that you have to click an additional link or two to switch between the two
forums.
Why is this a big deal?

Splitting forums or whatever won't prevent you from debating or socializing. At it will change is that you have to click an additional link or two to switch between the two
forums.
Why is this a big deal?

And ideally... discourage people from ignoring the dividing line between one and the other.

*NOTE* Ish not a mod */NOTE*

Here's an exerice I want you to try. Take you hand, and move it the short distance required to manipulate either a mouse, touchpad or trackerball. Good?
Now move the short distance required to place your pointer over a bit of hyperlink. There? Good.
Now, click the link.
Got it? Good.

Splitting forums or whatever won't prevent you from debating or socializing. At it will change is that you have to click an additional link or two to switch between the two
forums.
Why is this a big deal?

I guess the header "Anything and Everything"/General keeps throwing me off. I didnt know "Anything and everything" didnt really mean anything and everything.

but thanks for the expert mouse instructions.

Good Why should the players who debate AND socialize be forced outside of General ? You can be passing the love in one thread, and expressing why you think Bush is an asshole the next thread over. I don't usually interact with Peechland because I'm usually on the debate and word play threads and she's usually on the fluffle threads but I heartily agree with her. What makes General so much fun for me is the variety of stuff in it altho I do agree with I don't mean to tell ou how to do your jobs or anything, but most forums tend to regard having multiple, current threads about the exact same topic as 'spam'. They are invariably merged, closed, redirected or what-have-you. Why is it that so many threads can sometimes exist on the same subject?that the multiple threads on the same topic should be merged. The first person who posts should be the link and all the following threads should just be attached at the end. It would make for some confusing reading but since the arguments are all the same anyway . . . :p

Look, honestly, what I am having trouble with as a LONGTIME GENERAL POSTER (does anyone remember that was where I was chosen from?) is that there seems to be a distinct lack of respect between the two sides.

If you look through my post history, you will see I can be (and delight in being) very silly, and anyone who's been ten minutes in #nationstates_general knows hugs and puns are pretty standard fare from me.

HOWEVER... it does seem, with all due respect, that some (not all!) of the most recently joined social posters have decided that this is their forum and theirs alone, and they are going to fluffle where they please, hold private conversations in thread discussions, and flood the forum with copycat threads. And this after we ask repeatedly and politely that people not do these things. Is it any wonder the more serious posters are getting annoyed?

I DON'T MIND hugs and goofing around, but it seems like this is a very recent campaign aimed at creating so much strife as to try to force the recreate of Forum 7. This is annoying, because what it seems to say is basically -- "Hey! Nice forum, so glad we discovered you, but now we want you to remake it over in OUR image."

It's rather like walking into a restaurant, pushing your way to the front of the line through the customers who've been waiting to be seated and saying, "I'm here! Seat me at your best table!"

All we're really asking is that people respect each other -- and I'm not seeing much of that.

Cog, since everyone is replying to this thread in General on Fris's Sticky, do you think it might be a good idea to move this in there as well? Some people must be apprehensive to come in the mod forum and have yet to see this thread. What do you think? If you dont move it, please see the comments on the thread in General I mentioned previously. Thank you.


*Thinks about for a moment*......always.
I'll take a look at that thread when I have time; if this thread isn't quoted in it, then I'll post a link to here when I reply to that thread.

This site is and has always been a political site. It's the very foundation of the site. Whether it be role-play, game-play, the UN, etc, etc..General to me has always been a place for those who wish to discuss real world politics instead of pretending a.k.a. role-play.

I know it's not likely to even be considered, but why not end all the arguing over this issue and just consider it, that is all I ask, just consider the possibility of doing away with General all together and re-opening "forum 7" for the people who want to be "social" and talk about silly and frivolous things? Then open a section on the forum that is called "serious discussion" or "politics"?

Then those of us who get so fed up with the small talk would not have to see it. Those who get fed up with political debate and serious discussions would not have to see it either. It's a win, win situation.

I know it would take two seconds to do this from a technical aspect. Could maybe a moderator just even bring it up with Max or [violet]?

So many arguments about the merit of threads would be solved. It would totally take away so much work for the moderators. I think it's a good idea. It makes the most sense in my opinion. Could you please just consider it?

Thank You.
Changes to the forum heirarchy require the intervention of a Jolt Administrator. I can't speak for the Jolt Admins, but I anticipate that they will deny such a request on the grounds there are already boards for Chat (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=373), Serious Discussions (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1038), general humour (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=811), spam (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=29), and the various child forums of the Jolt non-gaming forums (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1211) and that NationStates players can already post to those boards.

So, unless my guess about the possible reaction of the Jolt Admins is way off (which is possible; I don't personally know them very well), I think we're going to be stuck with one "General" board for a while.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

I'll take a look at that thread when I have time; if this thread isn't quoted in it, then I'll post a link to here when I reply to that thread.
Coggy, it's the General sticky, "Ask A ..." & "Appreciation" Threads (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408234). There is some general discussion in both threads, but I think they're both in the right place(s).

Ok, I only just had a chance to read this...pc playing up..but what the Hell?
Everyone seems to think there's a big difference between a debate thread and a social thread. Sorry, but don't the really political debatey topics go elsewhere? Most are simply heated discussions and there's not many that are totally 'social spam.' If you remove the copycat threads you get mostly random discussions of current or general affairs.
With this in mind you make your two forums (or even just a few sanctioned threads):
The Social.
Here goes all the RPs/clubs/make me feel better/make yourself welcome/look at my picture/what are you...? threads.
The Debate.
Here goes all the really intense threads meant for serious political debate that don't fit elsewhere.

Ok. Fine. So where does all the other hundred or so daily discussions go? I made a thread about depression yesterday and from what I can tell from your discussions it would have no place on NS. Someone may take some of the more dry discussions and stick a little humour in...well if your outlook on life is so dry that you can't find the humour in a situation I pity you because your life won't be half as enjoyable as it should be.
And I've forgotten where I was going with this...damn.

Changes to the forum heirarchy require the intervention of a Jolt Administrator. I can't speak for the Jolt Admins, but I anticipate that they will deny such a request

That's cool Cog, just thought I'd ask, If don't ask, you never know. I understand. It would just be nice to see the social frivolous posts stick to the "Paradise Club" etc... but, you can only do what you can do.

And I promise to never fluffle any one! :D

I'm personally of the conviction that the whole NS General forum ought to be moved where it belongs (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=29). However, I know it's only my opinion and that it hasn't a chance of succeeding.

The kind of attitude the Cogitation is expressing concern over in General is fairly common throughout the NS forums. Everyone has their opinion over "what is best in life" (with apologies to Robert E. Howard's main character). This is normal. The problem arises when people can't keep their opinions to themselves and start posting in your threads about how useless you are. In the role-playing forums (which most certainly qualify for "what is best in life," thankyouverymuch) this is called hijacking and the thread owners generally request that the offender be removed. It sounds like this behaviour is tolerated more in General.

Is it so hard to stay out of threads where you have nothing constructive to contribute beyond your own disdain for the topic at hand? Of course, hypocrisy is my middle name.

Standard Disclaimer: I am not a Moderator. It would violate my religious beliefs.

oh wow. i just read this. and man, am i guilty or what. there are people who socialize and debate though. just remember that, please.i will try to control myself from now on, because its getting worse....

there are people who socialize and debate though. just remember that, please.
I am absolutely in favor of people debating AND socializing AND answering polls AND discussing music / art / movies / whatever. Just not in the same threads at the same times.

A thread is a conversation on a topic. Come in and post ON that topic, and you're welcome in ANY thread. Come in and start hijacking, no matter what the topic, and you're being rude. If the topic is reject royalty, then that's the topic. If it's the Pope, then don't be jumping in with "hi, good to see you, I hear the Pope is dead, how's your ankle, still sore?"

To me, this is incredibly obvious. Why do I have to keep explaining it?

And I've forgotten where I was going with this...damn.
It's a bit difficult to tell, but you seemed to be trying to make the point that the "debate versus socialization" issue is not as black-and-white as some (myself included) are implying.

Am I close?

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

I guess that's it. Thanks Cog. :)

There's still not much response from people with structured arguments...do people just want to whine and not get it sorted out?