NationStates Jolt Archive

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=403136&page=1

Here, in this thread, is more flamebait. The author implies that he cannot think of something good about America, so he's asking everyone else to come up with things.

I'm tired of all the anti-american racism...yet while racism isn't illegal here...flamebait is. Once again, threads like these inspire me to flame, making them flamebait. Case closed.

I saw that thread independently of the link here, and I can't say I saw any implication that he couldn't think of anything good about the US. IMHO, it's just a 'Defend America' thread, and not flamebait at all.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=403057&page=1

...and this...what other purpose does it serve other than angering Americans? Is this thread going to change anything? No. Is democracy now even a respectable source? No.

So what we have is a thread without an obvious point, spouting off nonsense from a source simply meant to anger people. That makes the point of the thread to anger people....hense...flamebait.

Once again, it inspires flame, making it flamebait.

I saw that thread independently of the link here, and I can't say I saw any implication that he couldn't think of anything good about the US. IMHO, it's just a 'Defend America' thread, and not flamebait at all.

hmm...

The big debate (the one that recurs the most, and the one that about half of threads morph into) is *Does America Suck?*. And on the non-suck side, people say "why are you making america look bad?" a lot, and they complain about zeppistan posting news stories that make america look bad, and so on and so forth. So my question is - what can you say to make america look good?

Is that it then, the best thing about the US is old beef?

Ein Deutscher']The US has culture? *cackle*

Well, they have, well, low taxes. This of course shows in poor basic welfare in some places.

It's a bit like Russia nowadays: There is the über-rich and there is the über-poor. Not like in the ages of socialism, everyone is not too rich but not too poor either.

And yes, they have a good army, nevermind the fact that all their weapons suck.

Ok, I only read the thread when it was one or two posts old, then ignored it because I didn't feel like replying. But I personally still don't see it as flamebait. Though [NS]Ein Deutscher's post and the last line of Sebytania's post are possibly suspect.

In my not-so-humble opinion, I think you're being a tad too touchy about this. Yes, there has been quite a bit of anti-American sentiment lately. After living in Australia for three years, this is nothing new to me. Certainly, threads that come right out and say "I hate Nation X" need to be locked. But when I followed the link, I didn't get that impression at all.

I learned a lot about US gun laws and constitutional rights and so on in my guns and us constitution thread. Teach me more - what are the good things about the US?He's literally inviting people to say good things and asking to be educated. Whatever his motivations for creating the thread, his delivery keeps him on the right side of the law.

Yes, people are going to abuse the thread and trash the US. Are we Americans so petty we can't rise above it?

Standard Disclaimer: Arrogant. Hypocrite. Moderator. One of these things does not belong.

Are we Americans so petty we can't rise above it?


I had risen above it for a long time. I'm simply fed up with all the bullshit. This is far from my first thread condemming anti-american flamebait, as the mods know, and it is also far from my best example. The rules outlaw flamebait, which these sorts of threads that I linked to most definately are.

If rules are not enforced, what purpose do they serve?

Just to clarify, this isn't about flamebait, which is directed at individuals. This is trolling or trollbaiting. See http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=288255

There is a fine line between trolling and strong political opinion. While it is the job of moderation staff to limit the amount of rule-breaking, it is not our job to make sure that nobody is offended by material discussed on the forums.

I've yet to see a political campaign in the US or elsewhere in which the candidates (or their spokesmen) didn't toss out various half-truths, evasions, or other forms of bait to make the other guy get angry and respond hastily. I've yet to see a political discussion board in cyberspace that didn't have various people taking strong but entirely irrational viewpoints, and then defending them despite all logic.

Max made it clear that he tolerates all sorts of viewpoints on the forums, and [violet] has codified some of those arguments in the swastikas (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=275081) thread. By inference from reading this and other topics, I can only conclude that Max, [violet], and the rest of the Moderation staff are willing to allow strong opinion topics and positions.

While it might be possible for moderators to remove every single post that had the impact to offend every single possible reader, I think the net result would be a blank forum. I happen to find smilies offensive. That would pretty much wipe out 90% of the forums right there.

Given that this is a topic of significant contention and I'm new to the position on this board, I'd welcome the input of other (more seasoned) mods. However, I don't find the linked thread to be actionable.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

The rules outlaw flamebait, which these sorts of threads that I linked to most definately are.I'm afraid we then disagree on what constitutes flamebait. Some of the responses to the thread may qualify as flamebait or flaming, but the thread itself looks legitimate to me. I believe there is precedent for distinguishing between "I hate Nation X" and "What's good about Nation X?"

Standard Disclaimer: <insert random reason explaining why I'm not a Moderator>

I concur with my associate Frisbeeteria.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

I've yet to see a political campaign in the US or elsewhere in which the candidates (or their spokesmen) didn't toss out various half-truths, evasions, or other forms of bait to make the other guy get angry and respond hastily. I've yet to see a political discussion board in cyberspace that didn't have various people taking strong but entirely irrational viewpoints, and then defending them despite all logic.

I can only conclude that Max, [violet], and the rest of the Moderation staff are willing to allow strong opinion topics and positions.

While it might be possible for moderators to remove every single post that had the impact to offend every single possible reader, I think the net result would be a blank forum. I happen to find smilies offensive. That would pretty much wipe out 90% of the forums right there.

Given that this is a topic of significant contention and I'm new to the position on this board, I'd welcome the input of other (more seasoned) mods. However, I don't find the linked thread to be actionable.

(I quoted that which needs a response)

I agree, Fris, that in politics half-truths, evasions, and other forms of bait to make the other guy get angry and respond hastily are often used. However, that is real life. There are many instances where real life is different than that of NationStates. In real life I'd allowed to look at porn, draw swasticas, etc. These things are outlawed here on NationStates. In addition, in real life I'd be allowed to call people names, speak of sexual experiences in vivid detail, and even beat someone's ass because of their political beliefs, religion, or race if I was so inclined. However, like I said, such things are outlawed on NationStates, and rightfully so. Therefore, the act of using a real-life example to defend an action on NationStates is flawed.

If strong opinions are allowed, why aren't nazi images, a product of a strong hatred of jews, among others, allowed? Why aren't personal verbal attacks, which stem from intense emotions, allowed? Not agreeing with America is a strong political stance. Hating America has little to do with politics.

However, I do see your point. It would be hard to regulate. Then again...smilies can be taken off the boards. All it would take is work from the mods....the same work that goes into removing spam, flame, and other forum offenses.

I must thank you for allowing discussion to be open to other moderators as well. Open minds are all I ask for. I do not expect this crusade to be settled here, just as it wasn't truely settled in the previous threads. I'm merely trying to bring attention to something that needs to be changed. Whether it's changed or not, as everyone knows, is not up to me.

EDIT: Also, perhaps I have not been clear. You say that you don't find the given thread to be actionable, and while I disagree with you, what I'm asking for is much larger than one or two threads. I'm seeking a rule change sparing Americans from all the flamebait, or trollbait as you called it, aimed at them.

If strong opinions are allowed, why aren't nazi images, a product of a strong hatred of jews, among others, allowed? Not only are they allowed, but there is a current thread in General (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=402979) where they are currently being discussed. What isn't allowed is their use where there can be no discussion, ie national flags.Why aren't personal verbal attacks, which stem from intense emotions, allowed? Verbal attacks on the position are allowed. Verbal attacks on the individual aren't. This same distinction applies in real life in the form of libel and slander laws. Admins and Mods have evolved a similar code here, and that's the code I agree to follow when I took this position. Not agreeing with America is a strong political stance. Hating America has little to do with politics. <snip> I'm seeking a rule change sparing Americans from all the flamebait, or trollbait as you called it, aimed at them.So, you want the Mods (a mixture of Americans, English, Aussie, Enzed, and Scots, IIRC) to grant a 'bye' to American nationalism, while allowing all others to continue? Or should we extend that to the home nations (and religions!) of all the moderation staff? Since we just lost our Canadian representation in Stephistan, does that mean that anti-Canadian topics should be allowed but not anti-American?

You're asking us to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say, "no more". Trouble is, that line is only being requested for a single, admittedly large group. That's not fair. That's not right. If you want the right to say negative things about anyone (North Korea, Iran, Somalia, or even Uraguay), then you have to accept the right for others to respond in kind.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. 'Sanitizing' a political discussion forum will kill it. I don't think that's what Max had in mind when he wrote a book of political satire, so I'm gonna stick with the precedent we have.

Trouble is, that line is only being requested for a single, admittedly large group. That's not fair. That's not right. If you want the right to say negative things about anyone (North Korea, Iran, Somalia, or even Uraguay), then you have to accept the right for others to respond in kind.

The thing is, I have never asked for that right.

What you're telling me is, though, that I currently have the right to bash any country or race that I chose to, back myself up with "facts," and get away with it? As I said, I'm not looking to quash debate. Not agreeing with America is a strong political stance. Hating America has nothing to do with politics.

See, this is why I would advocate the creation of a political forum, used soley for intelligent debate. There culd be much tighter rules on logical fallacies and other stuff like that.

The thing is, I have never asked for that right. Ok then, *I* want that right.

Any mechanical system that gets only positive feedback will oscillate out of control. Negative feedback is necessary for the continuing operation of the machine. While it's not an exact corollary, the same is true for discussion. You need the negatives to provide balance to the positives. I left a forum where the "politically correct" crowd had taken over, and all negatives were ruthlessly surpressed. It was about as interesting as a bowl of cold oatmeal. A forum with only positives turns into a fluffle-fest without content. Cheerleading. Dullness, in my book.Hating America has nothing to do with politics.Does that corollary extend to religion as well? Substitute "Christianity" or "Islam" or "Atheism" for "America", and you've defined practially every factional dispute that ever was. Hatred and fear are all about politics, because the vast majority of people lack the tools to perform rational analysis. In any case, it's not going to be about proven fact. It's always about opinion. That makes any emotion (including hatred) a potential component of the argument.

See, this is why I would advocate the creation of a political forum, used soley for intelligent debate.We're still talking NationStates,? Heh. Right.

Steel, hate to say it, but it isn't going to happen. Everyone has their touchy points. Banning opinions just because you disagree with them or are insulted by them is the sort of censorship that the freedoms we're supposed to be upholding here in the US goes dead against. In getting so put out over someone else speaking their mind, however wrong you think they are, is just validating their opinions that Americans can't take it and think they're above it all or need special rules or something.

Face it. When your nation is as public as ours is, and has as many controversial things going on with it, it's going to get questioned constantly. I may not agree with a lot of the bullshit I see on the forums every damn day, but I tell you what - I will defend people's right to express themselves all the same. When it crosses that fine line, sure - action should be taken. But banning all negative opinions is not the answer.

If anything, it allows those who express themselves poorly enough rope to hang themselves with, or at the very least, look bad. It all comes around eventually. All you can do is to hold yourself to a higher standard of behaviour, and set a better example. You may not 'win' the arguments in those threads, but in the end, I'd argue you win overall staying that course.

We're still talking NationStates,? Heh. Right.

Lol...anyhow...

I see your point and agree with you actually. I just am not sure as to what I can do about all the America-hating then? Nothing? Ignore it?

I just hate feeling useless, something that this entire situation is very good at making me feel. You can't argue with ignorance...and that's mostly what I hate. There can be no real discussion or debate on NS because of that ignorance by many. Ah well...no one's making me look at General...

If anything, it allows those who express themselves poorly enough rope to hang themselves with, or at the very least, look bad.

Heh...as Fris said...this is NationStates...

While idiots seem to die off in real life...they tend to flourish here...

Well Steel, that's the nature of the beast I'm afraid. As eloquently referenced here. (http://penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040319l.jpg)

The 'hang themselves' was figuratively only. Honestly now, I'd not condone that sort of thing for real - just in case some idiot chooses to make something of the old cliche. As for all of them flourishing - not so. Those who don't get play eventually tire of the baiting game and go away. Not getting a rise out of anyone? No fun for 'em. I've seen several either finally cross the line or eventually fade out. Keep the faith, man. It ain't all bad.

I see your point and agree with you actually. I just am not sure as to what I can do about all the America-hating then? Nothing? Ignore it?

I just hate feeling useless, something that this entire situation is very good at making me feel. You can't argue with ignorance...and that's mostly what I hate. There can be no real discussion or debate on NS because of that ignorance by many.
I sympathize with you there, but you cannot force someone to think. We are surrounded by darkness on all sides. Light a candle, hold it up high, and hope that someone will open their eyes, look, and see. That is all you can do. That is all any of us can do.

"Think about it for a moment."

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
Founder and Delegate of The Realm of Ambrosia

Hating America has nothing to do with politics.

I have to disagree with that, although I would use the word 'dislike' rather than 'hate'. I dislike America because they dragged us (the UK) into Iraq (& Afganistan), against the opinion of the British people and that of the UN. That's politics.

I also dislike America for other reasons, which are not politics, so I'll keep them to myself.

I have to disagree with that, although I would use the word 'dislike' rather than 'hate'. I dislike America because they dragged us (the UK) into Iraq (& Afganistan), against the opinion of the British people and that of the UN. That's politics.

I also dislike America for other reasons, which are not politics, so I'll keep them to myself.
This isn't a discussion of America, this is about moderation policy. Stay on topic or stay out of the topic, please.

I know that. I was disagreeing with the statement given and providing an example. If you feel that this was still out of place, I apologise.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I could toss three darts at General and get two examples if I needed them.

OK. Everybody vaguely dissatisfied now? Good. My work here is done.


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