NationStates Jolt Archive

Today I have received a telegram from mods that said:

While well written, your proposal 'International Court of Justice' was removed as the NS United Nations has neither the authority nor any mechanism by which to mandate panels, tribunals, courts, etc.

I remember that mod had given me the ok about mechanism the 1st time that I have submit it (see the ICJ thread on UN forum for the date). Also I think that there are some passed resolutions where committees, agencies or other bodies have the same function of the ICJ, expecially the Pretenama Panel. There are some examples:


#45

2. Copyright/Patent organizations be modified to accommodate the number of requests for copyright. This should be done by establishing a new International Copyright Organization, with chapters in every capital. This agency would receive other chapters' copyrights, and send copyrights established in that country to all other chapters.

4. An additional sub-agency be created to be informed of, and monitor all copyright/patent infringements.


#54

THE NATIONSTATES UNITED NATIONS shall form the United Nations Educational Committee, or UNEC, which shall resolve all of these problems in our nation's educational systems


#70

* A commission is set up by the United Nations to study the effects of overfishing and on other human activities on the marine ecosystem, and to propose solutions. If it sees a genuine need for scientific whaling, then it is empowered to licence limited scientific whaling.


#83

Article 2:The Pretenama Panel (TPP)

§1. TPP is a body that can be instituted by the UN when it requires it. It is not a standing panel, but one that is created when the UN requires its services. More than one TPP can be operational at the same time.
§2. TPP is made up of representatives from fifteen UN member nations. These representatives must be diplomats, or lawyers. Each nation can supply only two members to TPP. No nation can serve on more than one TPP at the same time. The members of TPP can be challenged by those accused as well as the accusers, as the independence of TPP is paramount.
§3. TPP is granted all the powers it requires to investigate Genocide and try people for the crime. It will have the powers to demand the extradition of suspects, witnesses and other people connected with the crime they are investigating. If the extradition is challenged TPP must show proof of the requirement. This power can only extend to the extradition from UN member nations.
§4. TPP will meet in a location decided by its members. The nation hosting TPP will be required to provide adequate security.

Then I hope that moderators re-think over their decision.

In fact there have been a host of committees set up by more resolutions than you've mentioned, but there are three examples of UN resolutions setting up committees which have stimulated NationStates roleplay:

- International Red Cross Organization
- United Nations Space Consortium
- The Pretenama Panel

The UNSC is by far the most active UN created organization.

Could you repost your ICJ proposal here as well? I'd like to look over it, but also feel the moderators should as well.

Months ago Hersfold and I wrote an expansion to the United Nations Educational Committee resolution which further defined the composition of the "fictious" committee. The ruling at that time was that we couldn't use the word "amendment" in a resolution.

A few months after that Hersfold and the North Pacific submitted an United Nations Olympics resolution, which was deleted on the grounds that it specifically mandated forum activity.

Since that time, moderation has consistently held that UN members may create committees that are "magically" staffed and run by a UN Secretariat, but that no resolution may REQUIRE activity.

The Pretenama Panel has been referenced by two resolutions, the most recent passing just in the past week, and it has remained true to the ruling created in August over Hersfold's resolution.

In any event, I think it would be best if we could look at Gwenstefani's and T's resolutions and how they dealt with the TPP and then look at your IRC proposal here.

§1
The International Court of Justice,established as the principal judicial organ of the UN,shall be constituted and shall function in accordance with the provisions of the present Statute.

I-ORGANIZATION

§2-Composition
1.The Court shall be composed by independent judges,elected from among persons of high moral character and recognized competence in international law.
2.The Court shall consist of 15 members,no 2 of whom may be from the same state.
3.The members shall enjoy diplomatic privileges and immunities.
4.The Court shall elect its President,Vice-President and Registrar for 3 years;they may be re-elected.
5.Each member shall receive an annual salary,fixed by the General Assembly(GA) but at least twice of average national judge salary.

§3-Elections
1.The members shall be elected by the GA.
2.3 months before the election,the Registrar shall address a written request to the GA,inviting it to undertake the nomination;each Member is recommended to consult its highest court.
3.Those candidates who obtain an absolute majority of votes shall be considered as elected.

§4-Mandate
1.The members shall be elected for 9 years and may be re-elected.
2.The members shall continue to discharge their duties until their places have been filled.Though replaced,they shall finish any cases which they may have begun.
3.No member may exercise any political or administrative function,or engage in any other occupation of a professional nature.

II-COMPETENCE

§5-Jurisdiction
1.The jurisdiction comprises all cases which the parties refer to it and all matters provided on conventions,treatiest,except where an existing international body already deals with the issues,and:
a.the interpretation of a treaty
b.any question of international law
c.the breach of an international obligation.
2.The Court shall apply:
a.international conventions
b.international custom
c.the general principles of law.

III-PROCEDURE

§6-Parties of the process
1.Only states may be parties in cases before the Court.
2.The Court may request of public international organizations information relevant to cases before it.

§7–Delegation
The parties shall be represented by agents,with the assistance of counsel or advocates before the Court.They shall enjoy the privileges and immunities necessary to the independent exercise of their duties.

§8-Documents
1.The official languages shall be French and English,but the Court shall authorize the use of other languages.
2.The written proceedings shall consist of the communication to the Court and to the parties of memorials and counter-memorials.

§9-Hearing
1.The oral proceedings shall consist of the hearing by the Court of witnesses,experts,agents,counsel,and advocates.
2.The hearing in Court shall be public.
3.During the hearing any relevant questions are to be put to the witnesses and experts.
4.After the Court has received the proofs and evidence within the time specified for the purpose,it may refuse to accept any further evidence.
6.When the agents,counsel,and advocates have completed their presentation of the case,the President shall declare the hearing closed.
7.The Court shall withdraw to consider the judgment.

§10-Judgement
1.The deliberations shall take place in private and remain secret.
2.The judgment shall state the reasons on which it is based,it shall contain the names of the judges andshall be read in open court.
3.The judgment is final and without appeal.

Thanks for posting this.


§3-Elections
1.The members shall be elected by the GA.
2.3 months before the election,the Registrar shall address a written request to the GA,inviting it to undertake the nomination;each Member is recommended to consult its highest court.
3.Those candidates who obtain an absolute majority of votes shall be considered as elected.


On a first quick read, I'm wondering if perhaps that this might be the problematic section.

While it doesn't really seem to mandate "forum" or game activity, somebody reading this at the same time as having read a ton of other proposals might disagree with my opinion.

But I was wondering who the "Registrar" is. If I were a new player and wanted to volunteer to serve on the ICJ, I'd hate to think that I have to wait, but I wouldn't know where to apply with this individual.

Several times you mention the "General Assembly", and though there are a host of resolutions which make reference to the body, NationStates doesn't officially have one, and I could see a moderator also screening your proposal out on these grounds. Naturally I'd let a reference to a GA slide, as I seem to remember sneaking one in myself on my "Tracking Near Earth Objects" ... so I don't feel that should be the issue at all here. :)

I'd like to add that the rejection note the moderators sent you was actually extremely polite and pretty helpful too. Having been in your position before, I can say that whomever made this decision must have really respected what you are trying to do, as they handled your deletion with much more care that I've normally seen.

My larger concern is the first part of the mod ruling though ... that the UN has no authority to mandate panels. This I think is a wrong decision. We may be able to work around the mechanism issue by really watering things down to the point that it is clear we aren't mandating forum / moderator activity, but no authority? I think that this is a bad moderation decision, because that essentially is limited the scope of what ANY resolution might do in the future.

But if all resolutions are every implemented on the UN members and they are voted by the members, which is the problem in creating panels? Without them, UN is only a void body without any power to ensure that resolutions are used, and this is in contrast with its aim.

And without the vote of GA, how could the ICJ have the autorithy in international law?

But if all resolutions are every implemented on the UN members and they are voted by the members, which is the problem in creating panels? Without them, UN is only a void body without any power to ensure that resolutions are used, and this is in contrast with its aim.

And without the vote of GA, how could the ICJ have the autorithy in international law?Your's changes game mechanics by forcing people to participate via gameplay. The others are unspecific groups, thus helping (not restricting) roleplaying.

§1
The International Court of Justice,established as the principal judicial organ of the UN,shall be constituted and shall function in accordance with the provisions of the present Statute.

I-ORGANIZATION

§2-Composition
1.The Court shall be composed by independent judges,elected from among persons of high moral character and recognized competence in international law.
2.The Court shall consist of 15 members,no 2 of whom may be from the same state.
3.The members shall enjoy diplomatic privileges and immunities.
4.The Court shall elect its President,Vice-President and Registrar for 3 years;they may be re-elected.
5.Each member shall receive an annual salary at least twice of average national judge salary.


§3-Mandate
1.The members shall be elected for 9 years and may be re-elected.
2.The members shall continue to discharge their duties until their places have been filled.Though replaced,they shall finish any cases which they may have begun.
3.No member may exercise any political or administrative function,or engage in any other occupation of a professional nature.

II-COMPETENCE

§4-Jurisdiction
1.The jurisdiction comprises all cases which the parties refer to it and all matters provided on conventions,treatiest,except where an existing international body already deals with the issues,and:
a.the interpretation of a treaty
b.any question of international law
c.the breach of an international obligation.
2.The Court shall apply:
a.international conventions
b.international custom
c.the general principles of law.

III-PROCEDURE

§5-Parties of the process
1.Only states may be parties in cases before the Court.
2.The Court may request of public international organizations information relevant to cases before it.

§6–Delegation
The parties shall be represented by agents,with the assistance of counsel or advocates before the Court.They shall enjoy the privileges and immunities necessary to the independent exercise of their duties.

§7-Documents
1.The official languages shall be French and English,but the Court shall authorize the use of other languages.
2.The written proceedings shall consist of the communication to the Court and to the parties of memorials and counter-memorials.

§8-Hearing
1.The oral proceedings shall consist of the hearing by the Court of witnesses,experts,agents,counsel,and advocates.
2.The hearing in Court shall be public.
3.During the hearing any relevant questions are to be put to the witnesses and experts.
4.After the Court has received the proofs and evidence within the time specified for the purpose,it may refuse to accept any further evidence.
6.When the agents,counsel,and advocates have completed their presentation of the case,the President shall declare the hearing closed.
7.The Court shall withdraw to consider the judgment.

§9-Judgement
1.The deliberations shall take place in private and remain secret.
2.The judgment shall state the reasons on which it is based,it shall contain the names of the judges andshall be read in open court.
3.The judgment is final and without appeal.

The new one seems better, though I'd check with the mods before resubmitting it.

But if all resolutions are every implemented on the UN members and they are voted by the members, which is the problem in creating panels? Without them, UN is only a void body without any power to ensure that resolutions are used, and this is in contrast with its aim.

And without the vote of GA, how could the ICJ have the autorithy in international law?

I should clarify my previous post.

My remark about the use of "General Assembly" is to only point out that in NationStates there isn't any official word used to describe the UN. Unlike the real UN which has a General Assembly and a Security Council and an Economic and Social Council, in addition to many GA sub-committees, some people get a bit jumpy when the game makes references to real world _parts_ of the UN.

I should point out, I don't mind this ... having done so myself in my resolutions and debates over the past year. :) I just pretend "GA" is another word for "UN Forum".


The larger issue is that there is a rule in NationStates that says that nothing that our UN does can involve game mechanics changes. Using Hersfold's old proposal for an United Nations Olympics as an example, it was ruled that his proposal mandated an actual election of an International Olympics Committee (IOC) on the forum. I'd have to look at his proposal, but he may have directly mentioned the forum.

You've not done this, so I don't see a direct conflict.

However, whichever moderator bumped your proposal felt that there was enough of a possible implication that your proposal was coming dangerously close to mandating some sort of game mechanics change, in that it half looks as though your ICJ idea requires that there be general elections.

I don't see this, but I can see how others might.

I like resolutions that create UN committees. I think it is a compromise and encourages off-forum roleplaying, which can be fun.

I also agree with the Peacekeepers. I like the new version. I've not carefully read it yet, but given that a mod bumped the original, hold off for the long holiday weekend and wait for a moderator to weigh in. If no mod says anything by next week, we can bump this thread and ask again.

For the record, I am not the Moderator who deleted this proposal.

<snip quote>

On a first quick read, I'm wondering if perhaps that this might be the problematic section.
It's slightly problematic, yes. I like Post #7 better.

My larger concern is the first part of the mod ruling though ... that the UN has no authority to mandate panels. This I think is a wrong decision. We may be able to work around the mechanism issue by really watering things down to the point that it is clear we aren't mandating forum / moderator activity, but no authority? I think that this is a bad moderation decision, because that essentially is limited the scope of what ANY resolution might do in the future.
The Moderator who deleted this proposal was a little confused about current NationStates policy. This part of the decision was in error.

The bigger problem is that the United Nations, as it exists in NationStates, is intended to legislate the internal affairs of the member nations. There aren't really any proposals meant to deal primarily with international relations. There are some issues that are international, but have an intranational aspect by which the proposal can be categorized. What category this proposal goes in is going to take some time to figure out.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

For the record, I am not the Moderator who deleted this proposal.


It's slightly problematic, yes. I like Post #7 better.


The Moderator who deleted this proposal was a little confused about current NationStates policy. This part of the decision was in error.

The bigger problem is that the United Nations, as it exists in NationStates, is intended to legislate the internal affairs of the member nations. There aren't really any proposals meant to deal primarily with international relations. There are some issues that are international, but have an intranational aspect by which the proposal can be categorized. What category this proposal goes in is going to take some time to figure out.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

It was on Human rights, strong.

A solution could be to make a new proposal category: international rights or bodies, with +political stability and international security, but - political freedom (or something like this) or, other solution, give international security + an optional results. In this way we can also make more of the real UN bodies, like UNICEF (+human rights), WHO (+moral decency), IAEA (+global disarment), ICC, ISO (+free trade), IMF (+free trade) and similar.

I must still attend or it could be ok for human rights cat?