NationStates Jolt Archive

The DEN was invaded after our founder was deleted. When TITO left, only a handful of DEN natives, to whom the region belongs were left. A nation by the name of Komokom participated in the second invasion attempt and has now been ruled as a "native" by the moderators and struts around proudly calling The DEN "his" region.

We were only 5 natives in The DEN. I was one of them before I left. Why did you make the ones that invaded us natives?

Well, since you felt free to title this thread after me, I'm sure you should not mind my posting in this one. How-ever, since it is mid-night, I'm off to bed.

Since it is not all that urgent, this is a place holder for some time tomorrow when I get a chance to post in full to refute the entire content of the initial post of the thread starter here.

* Since I hope this thread is about a Moderator decision, as against something personal against me, would it be possible for the thread title to be changed to " Decision in The DEN " or some such similar please ?My Full Post :The DEN was invaded after our founder was deleted. When TITO left, only a handful of DEN natives, to whom the region belongs were left. A nation by the name of Komokom participated in the second invasion attempt and has now been ruled as a "native" by the moderators and struts around proudly calling The DEN "his" region.Well now, that is not quite what I recall.

First, I recall the Founder of The DEN being DEAT for some rules violations.

I remember that because there was no founder, the region was easier for other accounts or groups of accounts to " attack " and Invade into it. And, low and behold, they did. I can see why, as no doubt quite a few might have had a mild grudge of sorts. That deletion was akin to the ships cannon shot whose firing signalled the storming of the Winter Palace, so to speak.

After the Invaders from all over left, there was a influx of DEN Invader nations. Also, the Founder came back using a puppet nation which it got into delegacy. It then declared the region " closed " and " ordered " every-one out. Some people from what I hear, refused to go. So, the delegate kicked a ton of nations, if not all, out.

It got reported for the rules violation too, and it too, got DEAT.

And Nation States Moderation cleared the big-ass ban list.

Within hours, nations from al over came into the region. So from other " Invader / Defender " groups, some new players, other's just moving about looking for a new " scene ". My old region is very into the N.S.U.N. and I was on an extended, and still I am to a point, hiatus from such things and wanted a change.

Now, by then the original founder decided to shift all DEN " operations " to " The DEN HQ " region. And they all moved off to that. Bar one or two determined to sit in the place, more on that in a moment ...

So I moved in. With many other various nations.

Over the next few weeks, several delegates were randomly elected, one or two new " Invader / Defender " groups " held " the region ( No one seemed to mind ), every-one was nice to one another and we all seemed to get along fine. Most of us ...

Because low and behold, now and again, DEN Invader members would move into the region, post some rude or brief " get out of our region " post, try to tell the current residents they were breaking game rules, carry out flame-bait and such. Petty attempts to draw people out, most of which failed. And well so.

So yes, weeks had gone by, with only these occasional bits and bytes of nasty-ness and ill feeling being projected at us. Then, when a newer group to N.S. not set in the solid " Invader / Defender " mold finally decided to move on to newer pasture, bang, DEN Invaders stormed the region in force and took control. Within hours the first internally elected former delegate was kicked out and hasn't returned. Events followed, many of which were reported to N.S. Moderation. I myself wsas kicked in what some have suspected a weak attempt to tactically alter the XML to DEN Invader favour should any of us then claimed nativity.

Then, that DEN Invader delegate resigned from the DEN or some such ( Only to support our current DEN Invader delegate ), and another took her place. They were deleted when they griefed our region by kicking me and leaving me on ban. Now we have a third DEN Invader delegate whose contempt for me on the C.H.Q.R.M.B. has been little short of vitriolic towards myself.

Any-way, that is my rough account of what has been going on. I'm sure Moderation Staff still have matters related to it all on file. Some of the telegrams were interesting, for sure.

We were only 5 natives in The DEN. I was one of them before I left. Why did you make the ones that invaded us natives?Hmmm, of course, were that 100 % correct you might have a case there. And I think Moderation have, reading on, go on to explain that for you.

Now this edit has been done, I'm off to post in regards to the rest of this thread.

Thanks for a constructive post. You are no native, you are no DEN.

You might check out the guidelines (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=321528) for invading/defense to see what rules the Moderators are operating by. While the thread contains a very large disclaimer indicating that they are not hard rules, they are useful for helping understand the mindset that the Moderators are working by. In particular, reading through may help you understand why an invader may eventually earn the status of "native."

Thanks for a constructive post. You are no native, you are no DEN.On a different note, I would suggest that you curb the hostility in this thread. Moderation is not the place for flaming, flamebaiting and pointless debate. Since you mentioned him by name Komokom has the right to post his side in this thread, although I would have preferred to see him actually do it than the extensive "placeholder" he put up.

Last but not least, my Standard Disclaimer.

I am not a Moderator. I will never be a Moderator. I do not claim to speak for them.

You are no native, you are no DEN.

Just a friendly reminder: Nativity isn't determined by organizational affiliation.

* Since I hope this thread is about a Moderator decision, as against something personal against me, would it be possible for the thread title to be changed to " Decision in The DEN " or some such similar please ?
A reasonable request. Done.
On a different note, I would suggest that you curb the hostility in this thread.
Excellent advice.

The moderator(s) who have been dealing with this ongoing situation will doubtless have a chance to review and post later. Be patient, please.

Nativity has nothing to do with the region's name. You don't have to be in the DEN to be a 'native' of the region 'the DEN.' From what I've seen, Komokom has been in the region long enough to be considered as a native.

You see, the fact that the region is called 'the DEN' doesn't automatically make DEN members natives if they appear there, nor does it automatically make non-DEN members that choose to live there 'invaders.' We've got to draw a line for nativity somehwere: we're not going to leave Komokom hanging in limbo indefinately just because you guys are throwing a hissy about his not being in DEN. Frankly, I'm getting rather tired of all the DEN whining that's been going on for the last few months.

i dont get it. whats going on here?

invasions, natives, stuff like that. the usual :p

Nativity has nothing to do with the region's name. You don't have to be in the DEN to be a 'native' of the region 'the DEN.'

Can a nation be a native in more than one place?

Lost Grippsholm has made a valid point, though. At what point does an invading nation become a native ?

One week, one month, three months ? I'd be interested to know too.

I don't regard it as "DEN whining". It's a perfectly legitimate question and one I feel has not been addressed by the moderation team.

And why refer to "DEN whining" at all. I enjoy following the Moderation thread. It's always interesting and always educational. And I do have a great respect for the Moderators. But I've yet to see a thread where an entire region was condemned as whiners.

Lost Grippsholm has made a valid point, though. At what point does an invading nation become a native ?

One week, one month, three months ? I'd be interested to know too.


I think the quick version is that a nation is considered native if it was in a region prior to an invasion, AND is not involved in the invasion. Yes, this means spies are natives until they're caught.

Outside of an invasion, there's no such thing as a native.

There's a whole thread on the subject stickied at the top of this forum.

Edit: I'm not sure, but I think an invader isn't considered native if a second invasion comes along while the first is still being resolved. An invader delegate can be considered a native delegate if it receives more endorsments from natives than from invaders.

An invader delegate can be considered a native delegate if it receives more endorsments from natives than from invaders.

That's not entirely true...

The only way a Delegate can be considered native in an invader/defender situation is if that Delegate has enough native endorsements to be in that position and could still be it without the help of invader/defender endorsements.

What happens if the only natives in a region belong to a single puppet master? obviously, if the puppet master is against the "invaders," then all of his puppets would oppose the new leadership. There's got to be something that balances that one player against the other players in the region

Yes, but it's generally assumed that nativity lies with a nation not a person; therefore, each puppet would be in its right to be opposed to invaders.

Thanks for a constructive post.Now I've edited it into full as I said I would, I'm glad you like it.You are no native, you are no DEN.Right, since you never seemed to " get it " when you posted this several times over on the C.H.Q.R.M.B. I'll say the same thing again, just for you, in the hope you'll read it and I won't have to do it again because of which.

1) Wrong. I am a Native, that has been proven.

2) Correct, I am no DEN Invader.

Moving on ...

Treznor, I'm sorry about the " extensive "placeholder" " as it was, but I wanted to be sure I could get a word in at what I felt was the right place to do so in regards to that post, as you can see, I have made good on my claim, heh.Just a friendly reminder: Nativity isn't determined by organizational affiliation.Thank you Tuesday for raising that point for me. While I've been thinking over what has been going on, I came up with a sort of analogy to it all, that I think suits the situation. Here it is :

( Its not perfect, mind you ... )

A man who helps run a club, builds a big house. He tells the club members that they, and only they, may come in and stay there when they want. And even so, only the club members he likes. He then jumps in front of a fast moving car and dies a squishy death.

The house is then on the open market, lots of people " rent " it for a while, then move on to other houses, most of the club members leave, but some stay and argue with the new residents.

Then the man who built the house in re-incarnated and comes back. Him and the club members storm the house, kick out all the other residents, then all the club members too, even though some don't want to go. The police come around and arrest him. He dies in custody.

House goes back on the market. The man is re-born again. He builds a new club house and tells all the club members to go there. Mind you, some of the club members don't believe in him any-more. By now, the old club house has new people living it who all get along fine. Although now and again, old club members come by and yell at them. Even though more often then not the police tell the old club members to stop it. Or else. Now and again they do things like scrawl on the walls, or try to set fire to the building, but usually, get run off by the cops and angry residents.

Now all of a sudden, the club members come back, storm the house again, and evict with violence some of the new residents. Several times. And even though one club member gets killed by the police to stop them, another takes their place and threatens to do it again

*** *** *** *** ***

That is pretty much what we are dealing with there.

As I see it, only the founder can dictate who the region is for. And when the founder is deat, the region is like any other with no founder. It is more open to invasion, but also, there is no absolute rule on who can come in and establish-them-self there. Just. Like. Any. Other. Such. Region. And Invaders of any sort, no matter who they claim to be must abide by the rules and be open to removal by the will of the residents.

Now though, there is this one group saying that since the deat founder said it was their region, it still is. Mind you, that founder is well deat now and can declare no such thing. So are they doing the equivalent of hearing voices and telling us ?

Moving on again, Frisbeeteria, thanks !

Melkor Unchained, my thanks for taking the time to hear me out and help me.Can a nation be a native in more than one place?Excellent question. I'd be most interested to see the answer. Kind of like dual citizen-ship ?Lost Grippsholm has made a valid point, though. At what point does an invading nation become a native ?I didn't quite think that was his point ...One week, one month, three months ? I'd be interested to know too.I guess its a little fluid and a thing defined by several factors. Time, words, deeds.I don't regard it as "DEN whining". It's a perfectly legitimate question and one I feel has not been addressed by the moderation team.Yes, but the Moderator gave the answer and its only matters if the asker of the question thinks it has been addressed.And why refer to "DEN whining" at all.If it quacks like a duck it is a duck?I enjoy following the Moderation thread.And my congrats on your first post here.It's always interesting and always educational. And I do have a great respect for the Moderators.Then I'm sure you'll all get along just chipper.But I've yet to see a thread where an entire region was condemned as whiners.Well then maybe we were lucky to see a historic precedent.

It was that or I mention the quacking duck again.Outside of an invasion, there's no such thing as a native.Actually, I think nativity is always there, it just has degrees of importance that vary with the circumstances in the region.

Also, tuesday is correct I think in those answers, also, yes, nativity is by account, not user. As are founder rights unique to an account, not a user.

Can a nation be a native in more than one place?

Impossible! One nation, one spot on the world globe. As soon as you leave you own region, at your own free will, you have forfeited your nativity. In other words; when you leave the region and it gets passworded, the invader delegate doesn't have to give the password.

Well Ballotonia just commented in my thread, that when native x of region voluntarily leaves region x, there is some time in between in which native x can return to region x and still be a native, but she also said that there is not a permanent amount of time. I think this answers your question, Cassandrah, but it still doesn't answer specifically how long it takes for native x (who voluntarily leaves region x) to lose his/her "nativity"

P.S. I like your name Cassandrah - my favorite of all Greek/Roman mythological names. :D

Still, if you are not present in your region by the time of an invasion the invader delegate will not consider you as a native simply because the invaders didn't saw you in the region. :mp5: There are people who are not able to check XML feeds (or whatever they're called)...

There are people who are not able to check XML feeds (or whatever they're called)...

Anybody can check the XML feed.

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/regiondata.cgi

Impossible! One nation, one spot on the world globe.

Well, in RL, Russia borders the Baltic, the Caspian, the Pacific Ocean, The Arctic Ocean, expands across two continents and about as many time zones as fingers on my hands. It's certainly is involved with more than one region. Also consider Turkey (a much smaller example), which is on two continients, plays vital roles in both lower Balkan regional politics and Near East politics. I wouldn't think it too outrageous to allow a nation in nationstates to have dealings/nativity in two regions--since nativity isn't based on place of residence (Darnit! I knew all those sheperds and wise men were wrong).

I think that's getting too literal and not a good metaphor for nationstates. In nationstates, regions mostly have a political connotation, not a geographical one. Your metaphor assumes that regions have only a geographical connotation.

Anybody can check the XML feed.

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/regiondata.cgi

That's good but can you check which nations were in my region 2 weeks ago? You'll need some kind of script to constantly monitor the regions. If I want to ivade certain region now how can I know who were the natives 2 weeks ago?

Since Komokom has recently been ruled as native and is now proudly strutting around pretending it's his region, have the rest of the invaders been ruled as invaders as well?

I simply don't get this. How can one that invaded The DEN be a native? He was part of the invasion force that installed Bezhou, whom now left.

Since Komokom has recently been ruled as native and is now proudly strutting around pretending it's his region, have the rest of the invaders been ruled as invaders as well?

I simply don't get this. How can one that invaded The DEN be a native? He was part of the invasion force that installed Bezhou, whom now left.It's my understanding that Komokom is claiming he wasn't part of the invaders. In fact, he's quite touchy about it (I was teasing him about it in IRC). He swears he showed up after the invasion along with a bunch of other people looking for a new home, and wasn't even a member of the UN until later.

Whether or not any of this is true, I don't know. I presume the logs have already been reviewed and discussed. If the logs are not available, then it's a matter of one person's word against another.

In the end, I really have only one question: other than him strutting around claiming to be a member of the region, has he been disruptive? Has he participated in any invasions either as invader or defender? Is it really such a problem to leave him there and ignore him?

He was part of the invasion force that installed Bezhou, whom now left.A little definition here, thank-you.

1) I was in The DEN way before Bezhou + company turned up.

2) I wasn't even in the U.N. then as I recall.

3) I joined the U.N. in relation to an idea for a proposal and another for a repeal I was tossing around places both inside and out-side of my head ( Which I recently put back on the shelf for now because of RL distractions )

4) After I saw Bezhou's interest in the region was looking benign enough, I did support them with what by then would have been a native endorsement any-way. I figured while they were in charge the region was safe from any even greater " threats ". Like from the threats being made almost daily by DEN Invader puppets saying they'd take the region from us.

A little definition here, thank-you.

2) I wasn't even in the U.N. then as I recall.

3) I joined the U.N. in relation to an idea for a proposal and another for a repeal I was tossing around places both inside and out-side of my head ( Which I recently put back on the shelf for now because of RL distractions )


Sorry I've been away for a bit, but as an active player in the UN forum, I'd like to state that I can vouch for both of these statements. Komokom was not in the UN for a long period from around the time of the Goontopian appears in the UN to just recently, and did express an interest in returning in order to promote another UN proposal / resolution. :)

- snip -

I don't think that would matter in this case, because the moderators already deemed him a native. If he was there previous to the invasion, and was deemed a native then, and when the invaders came in he was still in the UN but did nothing either way to support an invader lead, defender lead or native Delegate, it would matter little, because he was still deemed a native.