NationStates Jolt Archive

With the latest deletion of a nation for content deemed too graphic, it's become clear that Moderation policy has become more stringent in the past year, and some clarification might be in order. Things we could post a year ago isn't flying anymore, and even though people are being warned about it they're claiming ignorance. I think this would be a good opportunity to nip this in the bud and outline some "do's and don'ts" for posting graphic content. I invite the Moderators to review and clarify what I'm going to suggest here.

Sexual Content

Some people don't want sexual content in their threads. That's fine. Some people don't want anyone else to post any sexual content in anyone else's threads. That's not so good. While it is presently my understanding that we're not going to clean up the forums so all content is appropriate for viewing by children (it is a site intended for adults, after all), there are still some general rules for good taste that can be followed.

No explicit descriptions. If you want to write a Harlequin Romance novel, go talk to a publisher. No descriptions of sexual contact, genitalia or outright sexual references. Euphemisms aren't going to work any more.

No rape. Period. Rape is strictly verboten. It can be referenced after the act, it can be written so it's understood what's going to happen (this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7795935&postcount=58) is an excellent example) and it can be a valid part of role-play. However, if your discussion or role-play tends to focus on it you're going to be scrutinised carefully, and you may be given less slack.

Violent content

Ironically, some people who object to sexual references have less problem with violence. The reverse is also true. Either way, violence seems to get less scrutiny, perhaps because war is a favourite hobby in the forums. All the same, there are limits that need to be observed.

No explicit descriptions. Pretty much the same as above. Don't go into detail about how you're making someone die. People get shot, they get hurt and sometimes they die. You don't have to tell us what they look like afterward. Blood gushing and internal organs falling out may seem cool in anime films, but they're not really necessary here.

Update: GMC requested that I add the caveat of "no mindless explicit descriptions." Done. By this we mean that descriptions of violence can be appropriate given the context. On IRC we were discussing a scene where a character of his gets her legs run over by a Mammoth tank. The results are, naturally, not pretty. But this again falls back to an earlier point in that GMC never actually went into graphic detail of the event. It happened, the character was mutilated and the point was made. He didn't linger on it, but moved the story along.

No torture. Period. Torture is sometimes a fact of life in war and espionage. That doesn't mean we want to know your understanding of the latest techniques, or your fascination with the brutality of it. Again, reference it after the fact, or learn to build up suspense before cutting the scene as it's about to begin. Some people have been observed to have some sort of fascination with it, and like to add it to their role-plays whenever possible. It's likely to result in closer scrutiny and lower the threshold for warnings and/or deletion.

Language

I imagine this to be a tricky one, largely because everyone has a different tolerance level for it. Overall I'd say it has to be handled on a case-by-case basis, because everyone has different justification for it. I don't expect to see descriptions of the Ladies' Home Sewing Circle involve a lot of profanity; on the other hand I don't think it's reasonable to expect that sailors on a ship of war in the middle of the battle are going to calmly observe that they've just been hulled. Your choice of when and where you use language are going to be critical if it's brought up. If you just can't write a post that doesn't involve profanity or calling someone a whore, then you might want to rethink your reasons for posting.

Summary

I have no special insight into the minds of the Moderators, and I do not have a Moderator account myself (I'd shoot myself if I did). However, I can make some common sense observations and assumptions, and I can put them out for discussion and clarification. Ultimately, it boils down to a few basic concepts.

The more you can hint at a topic, the safer you'll be. My role-play is littered with scenes involving sexual or violent content. I've never been warned about it because I was always careful in how I approached it. It is not what you say, it's how you say it. Remember that. Shock value wears off; a cleverly written description will do more to engage the imagination than a bald statement of fact.

If you aren't sure, ask. If there's no one to ask, assume the answer is "no." The Moderation and Gameplay forums are great places to get information. If you've got IRC, go to irc.esper.net and log into the #nationstates channel. There are almost always people there willing to give you their opinions, usually whether or not you wanted it. In this case, it's safer to ask permission than beg forgiveness later. The Moderators keep records of what actions they take, from deletions to warnings, and people who receive a lot of activity get a lot less leeway.

Post warnings in your threads and/or posts if you know potentially offensive material may be included. This is not a catch-all, it's simply polite. It doesn't mean you're covered for whatever fetish you want to post, but it does mean that people who are sensitive about such things have less reason to complain when they see it. You'll still be judged according to whatever standards the Moderators are using regarding content, but you'll probably receive some consideration for giving readers advance notice.

Be responsible for your own actions. If you screw up, deal with it. Be mature and accept correction. Unless you did something very bad (linking to blatant porn or otherwise graphic sites), you'll receive a warning informing you what you did and what you should avoid. Arguing is not going to help. You can discuss it and clarify what was considered wrong and how you can improve. Sometimes you can even appeal a warning or decision and get it reversed. Don't count on it. Just remember that your problems in Real Life are not excuses for bad behaviour on the forums.

I'd say 'mindless explicit violence' rather than just 'explicit violence.'

It is not what you say, it's how you say it. Remember that. Shock value wears off; a cleverly written description will do more to engage the imagination than a bald statement of fact.

I personally agree with the evaluation Treznor has written 100%. This line, that I've quoted, sticks out the most, because I do believe (in my observences of the NS and II forums) of what separates the good from the bad.

I tend to agree with a lot of the guidelines posted here - in theory. Now let me explain.

There is, I think, a bit more that ought to go into the decision on what is and what is not crossing the line, so to speak, when it comes to somewhat 'questionable' content. It isn't as black and white as some may wish it to be.

Sex:
Hey. It's a fact of life. It happens. RP's have people in them, and well, it's what people sometimes do. As pointed out, it is the manner they are described that I think is the tricky part. If it reads like a Harlequin 'romance' novel, chances are, you need to reign it in.

"He slowly began undressing her" as opposed to belaboring every smegging detail of just how he went about doing that, perhaps might be an example. Kissing passionately, embracing, making love - wonderful. Lets not see paragraphs full of 'quivering thighs' and 'heaving breasts' and 'wildly thrusting hips' and all too detailed bodily forms and functions.

Try to do it with some class and style.

Rape:
Not pleasant, no - but there may be times when it is an appropriate rp topic. Again, it's all in how you approach it. In this particular case, I think a good rule of thumb is to foreshadow, hint at, then skip ahead a bit, or at least, not go into much detail at all. It is a disturbing subject I would say to most, and one that naturally evokes a rather strong reaction in a lot of people. Handle with care, try to handle it as tactfully as possible, and above all - make sure there is a point to addressing it at all.

Violence:
Again, something that will always be a part of the rp's on NationStates, especially given the nature of conflict between Nations. War is not pretty, and should not be illustrated as such - glamourizing war, I think, can be a far worse 'crime' than perhaps offering a touch too much violence - again, IF there is a point. I would rather have someone walk away from a war scene with a 'dear lord, that is horrible' than 'oh COOL!', thanks. Desensitization on account of overexposure is a bad thing. The example of 'seeing a horribly mutilated body crumpled on the field' is a far cry from describing in detail just how mutilated it is.

All the same, violence ought to be treated carefully. Lets say there is a scene wherein a commander is surveying the aftermath of a rather bloody conflict. Is there really a point to describing in as much detail as possible the many ways in which a human can be killed? I think not. Is there anything wrong with noting how the ground was strewn with the bodies of the dead and dying? Hell no. Is it alright to reference blood and other nastiness? Depends on the way you do it.

Yep, I think that right there is probably most of it - it all depends on how you illustrate it.

Torture:
Another controversial topic. Is there a place for it? Sadly enough, I believe there is. To better illustrate my thoughts on what pushes the boundaries of acceptability, I'll offer up my own foray into this subject as an example. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=278407) I will note that it is not something I have ever dwelled on, nor made a big deal about in other rp's, and that given the 4-6 months of build-up to bring things to this point, it was not just some random act for the hell of it. Doing the research for this (no, I did not just dream it all up on my own, thanks) and writing it disturbed me more deeply than I had anticipated - so much so that it was a good couple of weeks or so before I could write anything else. The purpose was to illustrate a number of things, whether character, story, nation, or other points - I leave it to others to decide if it was done well, crossed the line, or accomplished its goals.

Torture, like Rape, is one of the sub-sets of the broader topics of Sex and Violence that needs to be handled with care, again, as always with the aforementioned topics, making sure there is an actual point to doing it - not just posting it for the sake of posting controversial matter, or getting a reaction from readers, or using it as an attempt to get attention.

For example, say you're dunking someone in acid (since this has been done by several folks on the forums, and in my opinion is one of the nastier bits to pull, am not pointing fingers) - fine and well. You do not need to share every nasty detail of just what that entails with us. Please feel free to gloss a bit. Reference the screams of pain, the looks of horror on the faces of those observing. DO NOT explain how the flesh bubbled and melted or was chemo-burned from the body of the victim.

To somewhat sum up a lot of the previously-mentioned points:

a) Delivery - make sure yours is a smooth one. As Trez said previously, it isn't just what you say, but how you say it. Innuendo and suggestion are our friends. Careful choice of words can mean the difference between a wince and a warning.

b) Relevance - make sure there is a point to having it in the thread, not just an excuse for expressing your frustration, acting out some aggression, playing out fantasies, or waxing theraputic on account of your life being hell and having a need to take that out on someone else, be it NPC or other player/player characters. (No, I am not accusing, simply tossing out some possible motivations that some few may have on occasion fallen prey to, so don't get all defensive on me.)

c) Frequency - How often you discuss these sorts of subjects does make a difference. Your pardon, DecA, for using you as an example, but as your case seems to be fresh on everyone's minds, here's my take on it. I don't recall ever seeing a thread of DecA's that was not an illustration of mysoginistic posturing, forced sex, random acts of violence, and intollerance. I am aware these were ic stances, and may not accurately represent the player's views - that is irrelevant. The point is, it is one thing to act ic'ly. It is another when it seems that a blessed few things become 'unhealthy fixations'.

Bottom Line:
If you cannot handle adult situations and content in a more responsibly adult manner, you should think twice before attempting to handle them at all. If you need assistance in trying to, ask. ---In my never to be humble opinion.

Pardon if any of this comes across as unclear or the like. If there's questions or concerns, I'll try and clear them up tomorrow.

"There's a time and a place - just not all the time and every place."

Hows that for concise?

Very nice Treznor! We definitely need this for some clarification in case anyone else comes up with the excuse that there weren't any 'rules' written against it. Would you mind if I added this to "The Moderation Forum" sticky? That is, unless the moderators have another position for it.

Add away. I'm hoping the Moderators will be able to clarify on the guidelines as much as possible to avoid confusion.

No explicit descriptions. If you want to write a Harlequin Romance novel, go talk to a publisher. No descriptions of sexual contact, genitalia or outright sexual references. Euphemisms aren't going to work any more.With all due respect, this can be interpreted a number of ways in and of itself.

I've written two posts in which the ultimate event is that two of my characters either had sex or performed a sexual act. However, the wording was such that the specific act was never mentioned and no words depicting sex were ever used. Do you mean to tell me that someone could report THAT as being offensive?

From a vacation thread: "Now that they were far away from the media scrutiny that awaited them and they were seemingly a world away from the prying eyes and gossiping mouth of Louella Soames, the two men finally had a chance to take full advantage of their time to relax. And with a gleam of love in their eyes and with the privacy of drawn blinds ensured, they did just that."

From another thread: "The argument proceeded for a further 10 minutes until Tyler decided to employ a different tactic of persuasion..."

If someone considers those two examples too sexually graphic, I would have a real problem with them, especially considering they were written to be subtle.

From a vacation thread: "Now that they were far away from the media scrutiny that awaited them and they were seemingly a world away from the prying eyes and gossiping mouth of Louella Soames, the two men finally had a chance to take full advantage of their time to relax. And with a gleam of love in their eyes and with the privacy of drawn blinds ensured, they did just that."

From another thread: "The argument proceeded for a further 10 minutes until Tyler decided to employ a different tactic of persuasion..."
I'm not much of a roleplayer, so I'm not going to sign this post as a Moderator, but those sound fine to me.

...unless there's something n the context you're leaving out.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

Sarzonia,

The examples you've provided illustrate my point perfectly. You said it without saying it. It's the folk who feel the need to bluntly state "I'm gonna rape your ass" who need this warning. Under my summary I point out it's not what you say, it's how you say it. That makes all the difference.

There is something that bothers me about these 'guidlines'.

The mods have gone on public record and stated that it is NOT their job to police roleplay. Now because of DA, we're seeing these 'guidlines' pop up, and it makes me scoff and shake my head. If these guidlines go into effect, then it will show a certain hypocrisy on the moderators behalf. For years now the mods have refused to police roleplay, but now we are starting to see that slowly slip away. If content is to be enforced, then the moderators need to outright police every single roleplay in both NS and I.I, because if they don't they will essentially be picking and choosing what to enforce. If they are going to determine what is acceptable content for RP, then they also need to take care of threads that have godmodding, other forms of cheating such as puppet wank, and other RP related incidents that are generally frowned upon.

I agree that DA's smut frequently crossed the line, but I also know that not everyone on this site is an impressionable 13 year old. There are some of us older folks who do enjoy a good blood and guts story, and personally myself I almost always put some sort of content warning either in my title or in the first paragraph. These guidlines are all well and fine, but until there is a senior moderator or admin ruling on this these are nothing more than suggestions from one player to the next.

Just do what I do, start a thread with this line:

Upon reading this story/RP you agree not to report this as offensive, lewd or graphic.

Works pretty well, unless a thread is just a pornstory or describes extreme gore. Look, I agree DA crossed the line a few times but here's the freedom of the internet: you decide where you go or what you read. You know ogrish is a gore site, nobody forces you to take a look. Same with DA's stories. If you do not like his writings, don't read it. I fully agree with AMF here, policing RP's is a bit too far in my opinion.

These guidelines are just suggestions from a player, based on what I've gleaned from the DecA (as opposed to Der Angst, the classic DA nation) deletion.

Whatever you think of their "hypocrisy," I'm given to understand that the Moderators are changing their policy. As for policing every thread and post, they already have precedent for it in the General forum. They read what they can, but they depend on the community to assist them with reports of abuses. Presumably, someone who does this once or twice isn't going to attract so much scrutiny as someone who can't stop writing it.

Yes, there are some people who enjoy a good "blood and guts" story. I'm offering suggestions on how to write one without going overboard. If you're determined to write a slasher story, be aware that the policy appears to have changed and you might be held to new guidelines.

I confess I'm hoping the Moderators will make an official statement to clarify what I've posted. That way there will be less room for people to complain that "they didn't know." The guidelines are also written in such a way that it ultimately comes down to a judgment call: both on the part of the author and the Moderators. We'll see what happens. In the meanwhile, player input is just as welcome, as this is a community site and I'd like to see what everyone has to say before the Moderators set down the law.

I agree with Guff on this one. The issue of RP content pops up every so often, and the ruling on it always the same. It boils down to personal responsibility, and if a thread is clearly labeled as graphic in nature, then it is the user's fault if he/she then reads the thread and is offended. Personally, I never read DA's (I know the NS DA and the I.I DA are two different people. I RP in I.I, so I know him as DA) threads because I knew they were sexually explicit, and it makes me uncomfortable reading some guy's proverbial wet dream. But that is the thing: I chose not to read his work.

Also, you cannot really compare NS/I.I with the General forum. Calling someone a (pardon the language, but for the sake of illustration) 'dickhead' in Genreal is a bad idea because it is an OOC environment. Calling someone a 'dickhead' in an IC manner is different, because there is a made up character doing it, and not the player (unless there is a OOC tag in his post). I would hate to have to be 'nice' to people ICly because harsh language gets the axe. If the mods want to police RP, then they are going to have to triple their staff, as I.I alone gets dozens upon dozens of new threads a day. Add that up with the existing threads, and you got yourself quite a load on your plate. Then add on the NS forum (which does not see as many threads per day as I.I), and you've got literally too much work to police.

But getting back to gore, if there is any sort of indication that there will be explicit content in a thread, then I personally see no problem with it. In I.I, when someone sees a thread posted by me about the Halls of the Dead, they automatically know that there is a stomach churning post inside. I almost always label my threads of give some kind of indication as to content, as do many other RPers. I would hate to see this site lose the freeform aspect that has been so unique to it.

Making a call on content according to the limitations the site owner decides to have in effect is not policing rp. It is holding folks to the guidelines they wish to have on a private site - which I will remind you, we all agreed to on creating a nation here.

Policing rp would be telling someone what choices to make in an rp, how many ships they could have, what political views they could express, who wins in a conflict - not suggesting that the content be kept to an acceptable standard, which given the examples I have seen on the boards using all the various bits listed above, including others like racism, sexism, and all the rest, shouldn't be that bloody hard.

The suggestions here for now, are just that - suggestions, based on calls we've seen made lately. Nothing here is law. When and if the mods come to final decisions on things, then we'll have something solid to go on. Until that time, it's a matter of trying to use one's best judgement, and accepting the rulings on a case by case basis.

If you don't like it, write the really graphic stuff somewhere else. Your own forums, other sites that allow it, what have you. Free-form rp does not equal 'writing whatever the hell you feel like' when it's on someone elses site where they have the right to set levels of acceptable behaviour. And that, my friends, is the bottom line here.

In my opinion, brining up the subject of a controlled RP enviroment is fairly wrong. If you find stories of people disturbing do not read them. I know for myself some people, including me, like writing torture scenes. Rape isn't my idea of writing but it happens. If you want to write about rape or explicit violence add a tag to let people know what you have written.

Freeform RP means you have the choice of writing whatever subject you find amusing/interesting. That said, if that is no longer possible then there will be no longer threads where homosexuals are executed, all forms of sexuality banned, torture TV shows and mindless violence. You can ban attributes such as swastika images or hammers and sickles but stories are very different. Jolt has this amazing feature of reading the first 5 lines of a thread. if you add a "WARNING: sexual content" on top, you will know something happens that involves sexual activity. Of course, if you write a one setence post about killing group X or race Y then it's flaming or trolling, which is not the case with 90% of the players who write about the aforementioned subjects.

Simple.

Making a call on content according to the limitations the site owner decides to have in effect is not policing rp. It is holding folks to the guidelines they wish to have on a private site - which I will remind you, we all agreed to on creating a nation here.

The owner of this site went on record several times and stated that graphic content was acceptable as long as an adequate warning was given. I should know, because that ruling came after a thread I made ('Death Rattles', the thread you were referring to Nathi where my characters dipped a baby in acid and made the parents watch.). I really don't expect the ruling on content to change, but I do think that enforcement of content warning labels will be the end result.

[violet] him/herself has said that in the end it boils down to personal responsibility. If you click the link that says [WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT!!!], you have nobody to blame but yourself.

If these guidlines go into effect, then it will show a certain hypocrisy on the moderators behalf. For years now the mods have refused to police roleplay, but now we are starting to see that slowly slip away.

Wrong. The vast majority of these guidelines are already in effect; if a player comes along and posts nothing but sex, or extreme, pointless violence with no rhyme or reason to it, they will find themselves told to knock it off, assuming they're spotted doing it.

If content is to be enforced, then the moderators need to outright police every single roleplay in both NS and I.I, because if they don't they will essentially be picking and choosing what to enforce.

Or it could be reported by players, of course, like inappropraite content already is.

And slippery slope fallacy. There's no reason the mods would 'need to police' every RP just because there are set limits in place. Does it occur to you that the vast majority of RP contains no such content?

If they are going to determine what is acceptable content for RP, then they also need to take care of threads that have godmodding, other forms of cheating such as puppet wank, and other RP related incidents that are generally frowned upon.

Again, slippery slope fallacy. Why does this follow?

Wrong. The vast majority of these guidelines are already in effect; if a player comes along and posts nothing but sex, or extreme, pointless violence with no rhyme or reason to it, they will find themselves told to knock it off, assuming they're spotted doing it.


I believe this thread is about the use of extreme gore or sex in RPs. Even though DA's thread were riddled with smut, they usually had some sort of plot to it.

Or it could be reported by players, of course, like inappropraite content already is.

Of course it could be reported, but it would probably take several hours if not a day for said thread to be investigted by the mods. If things get to the point where posting any form of extreme violence is forbidden, expect your reports to skyrocket.

And slippery slope fallacy. There's no reason the mods would 'need to police' every RP just because there are set limits in place. Does it occur to you that the vast majority of RP contains no such content?

I can tell you don't spend a lot of time in I.I. Threads like this surface on a daily basis in vast quantities. You see 5 times as much war, gore, sex, and violence in I.I than you do in NS. If you are going to enforce rules on offensive content, then you should put a stop to threads in which Jews, blacks, and homosexuals are persecuted. While you're at it, you might also want to put a stop to threads where any RL ethnic group is persecuted, because it might offend someone.

Slippery slope indeed. If you are going to get rid of offensive content, then get rid of it all, not pick and choose.



Again, slippery slope fallacy. Why does this follow?

Because it raises the question: where will the line be drawn?

Also, you cannot really compare NS/I.I with the General forum. Calling someone a (pardon the language, but for the sake of illustration) 'dickhead' in Genreal is a bad idea because it is an OOC environment. Calling someone a 'dickhead' in an IC manner is different, because there is a made up character doing it, and not the player (unless there is a OOC tag in his post).I agree wholeheartedly.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with using profanity in most 'formal' writing because there are more effective ways to get your point across and I consider its excessive use a sign of ignorance. However, I recently decided to write my RPs to reflect how people really in a given situation would react. That's why I have my soldiers or crewmen saying something like, "fuck, he won't listen." Most military types would react that way. I added that to Sarzo's private speech because I'm pretty foul-mouthed when times are stressful or I'm angry enough. But I also try to strike the balance between just putting profanity in for profanity's sake and putting in dialogue that's a realistic reflection of what a person would say.

If someone called "me" a faggot ICly, I would just consider it a character in a book talking to another character in a book. If someone calls me (the person) a faggot OOCly, I get pissed off. There's a difference.

I believe this thread is about the use of extreme gore or sex in RPs. Even though DA's thread were riddled with smut, they usually had some sort of plot to it.

Yes, the idea of this thread is to determine a set of guidelines for rules on when 'RP' ends and 'inappropriate content' begins. Threads are already locked for such, there are just not formalised and displayed rules to it.

As a result, the point of this thread is largely to propose groundrules for, say, a sticky to inform newbies / n00bs where we start busting ass for illegal content. It's NOT intended to ban absolutely all explicit content, only explicit content that is totally gratuitous and extraneous to the plot.

It's the difference between saying your character goes to the toilet and describing the act blow-by-blow. If someone made a habit of describing each visit to the bog their leader took, that's graphic AND pointless. If at one time he had a transmitter inside him and 'found' it that way, yes, it would be fairly gross, but provided we didn't linger on the 'act' for too long it would be allowed.

Of course it could be reported, but it would probably take several hours if not a day for said thread to be investigted by the mods. If things get to the point where posting any form of extreme violence is forbidden, expect your reports to skyrocket.

Which isn't the intention, it's to eliminate roleplayers who make a habit of posting extreme and pointless content just for the hell of it, and provide guidelines to new players on what content is acceptable so they know what this forum's all about. People who post plot-relevant graphic violence would not be penalised.

I can tell you don't spend a lot of time in I.I. Threads like this surface on a daily basis in vast quantities.

So do storefronts with no violent content at all. And, indeed, many other types of threads; even when there are war threads, many don't go into detail about injuries for whatever reason [there's a lot of what one might term 'technical' war RP which focuses almost entirely on equipment and tactics, for a start]. The idea that II is full of pointless violence is a stereotype, and no more true than most of the other forum stereotypes.

If you are going to enforce rules on offensive content, then you should put a stop to threads in which Jews, blacks, and homosexuals are persecuted. While you're at it, you might also want to put a stop to threads where any RL ethnic group is persecuted, because it might offend someone.

But this thread is trying to establish rules on when sex and violence become excessive, so that's a Red Herring fallacy. When persecution of ethnic groups in threads become illegal is a seperate matter entirely.

Slippery slope indeed. If you are going to get rid of offensive content, then get rid of it all, not pick and choose.

But that's not what we're trying to do in this thread at all, the idea is to lay down where sexual and violent content in threads stops being appropriate so that it can be formalised into rules rather than the existing rules of thumb that exist anyway but have never been written down. Making that into 'trying to get rid of all offensive content' is an interesting strawman, but bears little resemblence to what's actually going on.

Because it raises the question: where will the line be drawn?

The question 'Where do you draw the line?' is the greatest sign of the slippery slope fallacy. No line needs to be drawn because this thread is discussing matters relating to sex and violence only, and, more to the point, because rules on this subject already exist!

Yes, the idea of this thread is to determine a set of guidelines for rules on when 'RP' ends and 'inappropriate content' begins. Threads are already locked for such, there are just not formalised and displayed rules to it.

As a result, the point of this thread is largely to propose groundrules for, say, a sticky to inform newbies / n00bs where we start busting ass for illegal content. It's NOT intended to ban absolutely all explicit content, only explicit content that is totally gratuitous and extraneous to the plot.

It's the difference between saying your character goes to the toilet and describing the act blow-by-blow. If someone made a habit of describing each visit to the bog their leader took, that's graphic AND pointless. If at one time he had a transmitter inside him and 'found' it that way, yes, it would be fairly gross, but provided we didn't linger on the 'act' for too long it would be allowed.

Ah hah, perhaps this is the answer I was looking for.

But here is another question. You say that as long as there is a point and a plot that being graphic is alright. Here's my question:

My RP's are always done in series. This RP was leading up to the end of a series I did awhile back, and it is very graphic. Would this, in your book, be deemed acceptable?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=369118

The result of this thread was that the Halls were re-opened, and that was a turning point just before a war broke out. Would material such as this that follows a plot line be acceptable? Or will I eventually get deleted for this?

c) Frequency - How often you discuss these sorts of subjects does make a difference. Your pardon, DecA, for using you as an example, but as your case seems to be fresh on everyone's minds, here's my take on it. I don't recall ever seeing a thread of DecA's that was not an illustration of mysoginistic posturing, forced sex, random acts of violence, and intollerance. I am aware these were ic stances, and may not accurately represent the player's views - that is irrelevant. The point is, it is one thing to act ic'ly. It is another when it seems that a blessed few things become 'unhealthy fixations'.


Well I can point you to the dozens and dozens of RPs that don't have anything you just mentioned, although when you toss "intolerance" in there, I didn't know that IC etiquette was suddenly under the sway of OOC RL Political Correctness Intolerance (since that's what societal PC really is, forcing folks to smile and nod even when they want to speak their minds)

But anyway, shall I start pulling up links?

ok this morning i made a post, in this thread, with an example of a warnig for a link that the mods make me use for it but the entire post is gone with no "this post deated by"

why???

[violet] him/herself has said that in the end it boils down to personal responsibility. If you click the link that says [WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT!!!], you have nobody to blame but yourself.


That's odd, in all my past RPs which they keep talking about having given me "official" warnings on, they all have big warning labels, some have them each post. So how can they claim I have a stack of warnings, when their warnings are void due to the fact I had warnings of graphic content?

You can a warn man for doing something wrong, when he's keeping within the rules, can you?

Thus I think their mythical stack of warnings against me, going back however long they claim it is, doesn't really count for anything.

I even once got a warning before the RP was even fast moving along (And there was no sex in the RP)





There is an example of one of their "many warnings"... I guess they can issue a content warning before anything has even happened, and when it's already planned out for the sicko to get shot before he can do anything, eh? And then they can count it as an official warning, I love how that works...


http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7806594&postcount=318

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7808678&postcount=320

Well I can point you to the dozens and dozens of RPs that don't have anything you just mentioned, although when you toss "intolerance" in there, I didn't know that IC etiquette was suddenly under the sway of OOC RL Political Correctness Intolerance (since that's what societal PC really is, forcing folks to smile and nod even when they want to speak their minds)Yes, yes. It's all a conspiracy to oppress you and prevent you from exercising your constitutionally protected right to free speech.

Which, I might add, doesn't qualify for privately run networks like this forum. You can complain all you like, but until you demonstrate a willingness to cooperate and comply with guidelines you have already been warned and deleted over repeatedly, you're not going to get much sympathy.

But anyway, shall I start pulling up links?No, thank you. Not interested, and not particularly relevant to this conversation.

This isn't about being 'PC', it's about trying to find some balance with guidelines. If I were interested enough in your rp, I'd say 'sure, show me your posts proclaiming your greatness in all their glory', but I'm not. I could probably find an equal amount that do illustrate what I pointed out there.

Please note that I said 'I don't recall ever seeing a thread'. This does not mean they do not exist. Due to the recent ruling involving you, your posts seem an appropriate example to use. You don't like it? Not my problem. Believe me, I'm the last one you ought to accuse of trying to play the 'we have to keep everyone feeling comfortable, warm, and fuzzy' game. If I had my preferences, the only guidelines would be 'post an appropriate warning well before any questionable content, reader beware', and I would continue to keep my rp edited in a manner I see fit to, and not partake of the threads that did not appeal to my interest, leaving the authors well enough alone - as I already tend to do.

However, given this recent ruling, there seems to be some question as to just what point such controversial posts cease to be acceptable. The ideas posted here are an attempt to make some suggestions. If you have something of content to add to the discussion, do so. This is not a thread designed for your personal validation. Please take it elsewhere.

There is something that bothers me about these 'guidlines'.

The mods have gone on public record and stated that it is NOT their job to police roleplay. Now because of DA, we're seeing these 'guidlines' pop up, and it makes me scoff and shake my head. If these guidlines go into effect, then it will show a certain hypocrisy on the moderators behalf. For years now the mods have refused to police roleplay, but now we are starting to see that slowly slip away. If content is to be enforced, then the moderators need to outright police every single roleplay in both NS and I.I, because if they don't they will essentially be picking and choosing what to enforce. If they are going to determine what is acceptable content for RP, then they also need to take care of threads that have godmodding, other forms of cheating such as puppet wank, and other RP related incidents that are generally frowned upon.

I agree that DA's smut frequently crossed the line, but I also know that not everyone on this site is an impressionable 13 year old. There are some of us older folks who do enjoy a good blood and guts story, and personally myself I almost always put some sort of content warning either in my title or in the first paragraph. These guidlines are all well and fine, but until there is a senior moderator or admin ruling on this these are nothing more than suggestions from one player to the next.



About policing RP, I was recently told by some folks who shall remain anonymous, that there is a list, of folks who ought to have ALL their RPs read, and read carefully, looking for the slightest grounds to get them deleted, and I was told that I was on this list...

About policing RP, I was recently told by some folks who shall remain anonymous, that there is a list, of folks who ought to have ALL their RPs read, and read carefully, looking for the slightest grounds to get them deleted, and I was told that I was on this list...Please leave your accusations of conspiracy and personal martyrdom out of this thread. It is not adding to the discussion in any helpful manner.

So what is the ruling on consensual non sexually explicit text, but text that is of a decidely sexual nature. IE. a husband starting to get intimate with wife, and then jump to the next scene with both of them asleep.


Also, about language, my general rule of thumb is I blank out letters in racially offensive words, since I don't really like needlessly offending people, but don't blank out general swear words, as not everybody is offended by them, many aren't. But you can bet on it, if somebody of race A, sees an insult to race A, they'll likely take offense.


Also, lastly, somebody was talking about sexually based torture, what about just good ole fashion non-sexually based torture, like acid drippers, pulling out nails, hairs, etc. I rarely did such tortures, but the DISFB has a habit of using acid, although I just would write about the acid being used, not somebody writhing in agony over it.



Oh, and lastly, nobody cares about drug, alcohol, or tobacco use in RPs, do they?

We're still waiting on an official ruling, if there's going to be one. In the end, the best advice I can offer is to hint at graphic scenes rather than state. The more indirect you can make it the safer you're going to be. Being subtle is the key. The more detail you feel you have to put in, the more likely you're going to get into trouble. If that means you need to have a husband suggest to his wife that they have sex, then cut to the scene after this event, then so be it.

I'm happy that your role-play managed to avoid some of the other pitfalls discussed in this thread. Also, to my knowledge there are no restrictions regarding drugs, alcohol or tobacco use in the forums. On the other hand, if someone makes an effort to find a way to abuse them, then I think they deserve all the trouble they get. Making more work for the Moderators is a quick way to get your privileges cut off.

We're still waiting on an official ruling, if there's going to be one. In the end, the best advice I can offer is to hint at graphic scenes rather than state. The more indirect you can make it the safer you're going to be. Being subtle is the key. The more detail you feel you have to put in, the more likely you're going to get into trouble. If that means you need to have a husband suggest to his wife that they have sex, then cut to the scene after this event, then so be it.

I'm happy that your role-play managed to avoid some of the other pitfalls discussed in this thread. Also, to my knowledge there are no restrictions regarding drugs, alcohol or tobacco use in the forums. On the other hand, if someone makes an effort to find a way to abuse them, then I think they deserve all the trouble they get. Making more work for the Moderators is a quick way to get your privileges cut off.



Why don't they just make an adult or mature section of the NS forum, for RPs of a mature nature? Sure would solve a lot of problems and questions about what is appropriate, eh?

Or an, "Anything goes" section, where you have to sign a waiver to get access to it, so you can't claim you're offended.

Why don't they just make an adult or mature section of the NS forum, for RPs of a mature nature? Sure would solve a lot of problems and questions about what is appropriate, eh?

Or an, "Anything goes" section, where you have to sign a wavier to get access to it, so you can't claim you're offended.Mmm...probably because it's a waste of time. Theoretically, we should be able to police ourselves and not have to deal with guidelines like this. In practice, people can't resist stooping to shock value and seeing just how far they can push the limits. Therefore we have Moderators.

Hundreds and thousands of people have successfully posted to the forums with sexual and violent content without the Moderators having to intercede. That suggests to me that it's not that difficult to moderate your own posts. Setting up an "adult only" section would require some sort of validation to prove people are who they say they are, and that just gets ugly. Not interested.

I got an idea, just so nobody ever gets worked up about my RPs, before I post any lengthy RP, I'll submit it to the mods for review.

Right now I've got about 600 pages worth of RPs, that are under work, so where do I submit them?


I was thinking, you're obviously reading everything I post after I post it (or else you'd not find obscure RPs and hassle me over them). So why not read it before I post it and help me work out any possible rules conflicts with the content, eh?

I agree with Nathi's and Treznor's points, and also Vastiva's little comment. I would advise the mods, for what my p.o.v is worth, to bring this rule into force.

Or an, "Anything goes" section, where you have to sign a waiver to get access to it, so you can't claim you're offended.

Yes, I'm sure Max Barry would like to have his book title and his name on what amounted to a violent porn site.

I really see no need for these guidelines at all. People on this site are not majorly offended by sex and torture. I've been a frequent poster on II for almost a year now and I have not seen or read anything here that I wished afterwards I hadn't. I've read things I would describe as bad taste, but that's different and people should just deal with it. There really isnt that much of this about, and when it does exist it is almost always fitting for the RP which it is posted in. Of course, if something is really, really bad, then by all means report it and the mods can review it on a BASE BY CASE BASIS, but don't make up stupid guidelines / RP policing setting arbitary rules such as "No torture at all", "No rape", "No this", "No that". Soon I suppose you'll be banning RPed genocide and RPed wars, or RPed bombing of civilian targets.

Still, the inexorable tide of political correctness continues, and it was only ever a matter of time before it infected NS.

I agree with Prae. Since '03, I haven't found a single RP post on the forums anywhere offensive. Perhaps, as a recent example, DecA's rascist posts were extreme. But then, they are Role-Play posts, not his RL opinions. After reading them, I didn't feel inclined to beat the shit out of the next coloured person I saw. In all the wars I've read, I haven't once had the urge to pick up a gun and kill someone.

There is very little described in modern-tech RPs that hasn't already happened in the RL world somewhere, and most people in II know that. The world can't just ignore bad things and censor them because one or two people might be offended by it. Life's a bitch, and some people need to wake up and smell the roses.

And for those arguing that all the IIer's arguements are slippery slopes, it is my opinion that you are wrong. With excessive sexual or violent content banned, the next step will be banning NBC descriptions other than the "I launch a nuke at your city, it hits, and your citizens die". Next comes genocide, then rascism, then any mention of the Nazis. This time next year, the RPs will be about fairies and gardening. You wait and see.

If it weren't for the fact that people are being caught off guard by a new policy and getting deleted for it, I would agree with you. As it stands, I cannot. I'm therefore attempting to outline what I understand of this policy for your benefit.

To my knowledge you haven't been warned for violating the new guidelines. It's very likely that you don't need them. But apparently others do, and this is for them.

This is true, but that's because I haven't written an RP where any form of sexual content is likely to come up. Yet. If, at some stage, I wanted to start or participate in a non-violent character RP, I'd rather write it as a decent story that people will want to read, not something that should be made into a Disney film for two year olds.

My RPs are more likely to contain violent scenes, but its never going to be anything that couldn't happen in real-life situations. Where's the guarantee that I'm not going to get warned/deleted for describing at a character level a SpecOps mission gone wrong, or a terrorist attack? Many books out there, especially those written by Andy McNab, Matt Reilly, and several other good authors, describe death scenes and GSWs in some detail. They can be bought and read by anyone capable of reading. How much description is too much?

These guidelines (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=34885&dict=CALD) have not been endorsed by the mods, and so I will have no qualms with "breaking" them. I understand that a lot of people hate DA and so they use these as an excuse to deat him for it. That doesn't indicate a change in policy.

This is true, but that's because I haven't written an RP where any form of sexual content is likely to come up. Yet. If, at some stage, I wanted to start or participate in a non-violent character RP, I'd rather write it as a decent story that people will want to read, not something that should be made into a Disney film for two year olds.Agreed.

My RPs are more likely to contain violent scenes, but its never going to be anything that couldn't happen in real-life situations. Where's the guarantee that I'm not going to get warned/deleted for describing at a character level a SpecOps mission gone wrong, or a terrorist attack? Many books out there, especially those written by Andy McNab, Matt Reilly, and several other good authors, describe death scenes and GSWs in some detail. They can be bought and read by anyone capable of reading. How much description is too much?That's really the question of the day. "How much is too much?" My answer is "when you describe more than you need to get the message across."

My role-play is peppered with violent scenes (Devon Treznor getting jumped by Alkanphel) as well as sexual relations (Devon Treznor has been obsessed with the Dread Lady Nathicana for...well...ever), but I've never had anyone suggest maybe it was a little too much. Largely because the people I role-play with agreed on how to phrase things so the scene didn't turn slasher or pornographic. We hinted, we rephrased, we stated actions and let the implications speak for themselves.

Ultimately, it still boils down to a case-by-case judgment call. This gives you fair warning that you probably will be judged on it, and offers guidelines on how to avoid getting smacked down. If you object to this then I'm sorry for you, but I'm of the opinion that forewarned is forearmed.

Okay, this causes serious questions for me. I was thinking of starting a nation that from the very start isn't entirely nice. Not all of what they do is pretty or great, or even anything less than horrific, and I was wanting RPs to reflect the fact said nation has a dark side from time to time. So, the following questions have entered my mind:

1. Can graphic torture accounts be used if the graphic descriptions are required to convey the true horror of what the people are doing? I mean the graphicness of AMF reopening his evil hall and not the stuff of DA.

2. Does every item have to have the purpose behind it posted then, or can that wait for a bit until it comes up later in the RP?

3. Are all of the mods going to use the same standards, or is it up to the individual? Not everyone shares the same taste as to what is appropriate and what isn't.

4. What is preventing the line from being pulled so far back this site becomes a cheap kiddie forum instead of a place for real RPs? Pulling back the line because one person gets stupid is allowing for the possibility that the line gets pulled too far back as time passes.

No, the Moderators have not said if they're going to endorse this one way or another. I'm not going to complain if anyone violates the guidelines I've suggested. On the other hand, I'm not going to have much sympathy for someone who gets warned or deleted for it, either. This is to give you fair warning.

I'm not entirely sure how tolerant the Mods are going to be about any of this stuff. I've heard "no torture, no rape. End of discussion." That doesn't necessarily constitute an official ruling, it's just what I've heard. Therefore it suggests to me that going into any kind of detail about those topics puts you on very thin ice. As I've said I'd like the Mods to make an official ruling on how accurate this discussion has been so we're all on the same page, but either they're avoiding doing so or waiting until enough of a consensus can be achieved. To date, no one has yet said, "Don't worry about it. Nobody is going to get in trouble for it."

I don't think it's going to be necessary to declare what you're going to do before you do it. For one thing, that can really ruin the mood being set by a story. But it would be wise to give people fair warning that some material may not be suitable for younger readers.

There's been some concern about the "slippery slope" argument, and I agree. Given my druthers I'd just as soon leave the site open to any kind of role-play, no matter how graphic. I do agree with folk posting headers to warn us when we might encounter graphic material, but beyond that I'm not in favour of stopping them from posting anything. This is a forums where adults participate, and it's distasteful to have to censor or moderate anything. Unfortunately, the need has arisen and we have to abide by the wishes of the forum owner. I believe we won't have to worry about the forums being completely sanitised to the point of G or PG ratings, but I think we're going to see constant changes as people think up new ways to shock and titillate.

This is to give you fair warning.

Well no it isnt. You aren't a mod, so you have no right to give anyone "fair warning".

Ya see, thing is, if there is some kind of official warning, then as DLE mentioned, it won'tbe equally enforced. Unless all the moderators discuss each contested post to decide on its legality, it is unlikely to be a fair system.

As an example - say someone makes a post about a child dying in some way, and someone decides its too graphic, and so reports it. A mod like Steph (I know she isn't anymore, but bear with me on this), being a mother, would react a lot differently to a mod who came from the RPing ranks, and who would recognise it as a part of an RP, if a slightly graphic part. Different people would find different things offensive.

Without wanting to spark off an off-topic discussion, it's like the swastika debate. Personally, I don't find it in the slightest bit offensive, but think that if you're gonna limit that because of its association with the Nazi's, you should censor the hammer & sickle because of its ties with Stalins purges. And anything related to Pol Pot. And Qaddafi. And anything related to Spanish Influenza.

Dragging this post back to my point, there either has to be a specific detailed set of guidelines stating EXACTLY what is acceptable, or you allow it to continue as it did for months, with people who find certain things offensive not bothering to read them. Perhaps a ruling that anything excessive contains a warning in the opening post or title? That way, if anyone is offended, they chose to read it, so it can hardly be blamed on the author.

Moderation is rarely that cut and dried. I say that not as a Moderator but as someone who has performed similar duties elsewhere.

No, folks, I'm not bucking to become a Mod. I've stated directly that I'll refuse it if offered, and they're not offering. I stand by that. When I say "fair warning" I'm not attempting to imply "official warning." I'm giving you a heads up that this is coming down the line. Seven Moderators apparently reviewed the accusations against DecA and agreed he deserved to be deleted.

These guidelines are not law. By proposing them as I am, I'm giving the Mods something to work on so they can say "yes, these are the criteria we will use when judging your posts." Hopefully there will be additional clarification so we better know what to expect. As I say, it's rarely that easy. The only reason we have the swastika ban is because Max Barry said so. Nothing has been confirmed about this, so all we can do is discuss it until the Powers That Be say "yea" or "nay."

Well I'll say this, a lot of these sudden rules changes, effectively kill a few major RPs I was working on. If we can't even mention the word rape, or convey the idea in a generalized way, it will seriously impede the character development of some of my major characters and perhaps stop a major war.

Let us just say that the RP is under work, about 150 pages or so, and involves the Czarina, a run in with FARC in Colombia, and then the Czar flying into a rage and lots of MSAAS operations into Colombia. You ought to be able to figure out what his getting angry was all about... But anyway, how can things so crucial to an RP, be mentioned but not mentioned?

Basically, I'm not going to post that RP and risk getting deleted, even though in the opinion of me and the one RPing it with me, there is nothing wrong with it, very tactful and such. So really, the only people who suffer, are those who miss out on reading it (since it seems from the volume of TG and IM I get, folks do like my work and the work of those I RP with)

But at any rate, I'm probably just going to submit it to the mods so they can read it and give it either the clear or the denied, if denied, I'll just end up having to butcher sections of it (nothing I haven't done before when a prospective RP was denied)

:: sticky ::

Still, the inexorable tide of political correctness continues, and it was only ever a matter of time before it infected NS.

And for those arguing that all the IIer's arguements are slippery slopes, it is my opinion that you are wrong. With excessive sexual or violent content banned, the next step will be banning NBC descriptions other than the "I launch a nuke at your city, it hits, and your citizens die". Next comes genocide, then rascism, then any mention of the Nazis. This time next year, the RPs will be about fairies and gardening. You wait and see.

Already addressed this once:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8144751&postcount=21

For those who missed it:

RULES AGAINST OVERLY VIOLENT OR SEXUAL CONTENT ALREADY EXIST BUT HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN DOWN. THERE CANNOT POSSIBLY BE A 'SLIPPERY SLOPE' TO WRITING DOWN EXISTING RULES.

What's going on here really is trying to work out when content becomes inappropraite, not work out if there should be rules against inappropraite content because there already are.

Let us just say that the RP is under work, about 150 pages or so, and involves the Czarina, a run in with FARC in Colombia, and then the Czar flying into a rage and lots of MSAAS operations into Colombia. You ought to be able to figure out what his getting angry was all about... But anyway, how can things so crucial to an RP, be mentioned but not mentioned?
I think what is trying to be said here is that mentioning that the Czarina was raped, as it would be important to the story, would be fine.

But going into graphic detail about what the FARC did to her with guns and ropes and whatever is unnecessary. "She was bound and raped" conveys the exact same information as "Alice was stripped naked, and with harsh metal chains, bound to an unfinished wooden table, when Jorge proceeded to drop his pants around his ankles and, placing the butt of his gun under her chin to hold her mouth shut, ..."

I don't think I should or need to continue. But do you see the difference?

I think what is trying to be said here is that mentioning that the Czarina was raped, as it would be important to the story, would be fine.

But going into graphic detail about what the FARC did to her with guns and ropes and whatever is unnecessary. "She was bound and raped" conveys the exact same information as "Alice was stripped naked, and with harsh metal chains, bound to an unfinished wooden table, when Jorge proceeded to drop his pants around his ankles and, placing the butt of his gun under her chin to hold her mouth shut, ..."

I don't think I should or need to continue. But do you see the difference?


Precisely, it's very implied, although what may be a bit graphic would be the Czar's revenge... (Although that could, if required, just be implied as well)

Already addressed this once:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8144751&postcount=21

For those who missed it:

RULES AGAINST OVERLY VIOLENT OR SEXUAL CONTENT ALREADY EXIST BUT HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN DOWN. THERE CANNOT POSSIBLY BE A 'SLIPPERY SLOPE' TO WRITING DOWN EXISTING RULES.

What's going on here really is trying to work out when content becomes inappropraite, not work out if there should be rules against inappropraite content because there already are.
So this thread is mod approved? Either it is or it isnt, because as a long time raider Im sick of being deleted for breaking "unwritten" (read: made up) rules, and seeing others deleted for them.

Already addressed this once:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8144751&postcount=21

For those who missed it:

RULES AGAINST OVERLY VIOLENT OR SEXUAL CONTENT ALREADY EXIST BUT HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN DOWN. THERE CANNOT POSSIBLY BE A 'SLIPPERY SLOPE' TO WRITING DOWN EXISTING RULES.

What's going on here really is trying to work out when content becomes inappropraite, not work out if there should be rules against inappropraite content because there already are.


No offense, but could you please translate for me... "There cannot possibly be a slippery slope to writing down existing rules" that "Have not been written down", if they exist but aren't written down, they don't exist, right?

Please clarify that for me.

Thank you.

The British Constitution is not written down, yet it exists. An unwritten, verbal agreement over what constitutes acceptable behavior by the moderators and administrators would be considered an 'unwritten rule'. This may or may not be because they believe no one would be dumb enough to do said unacceptable thing, but wish to be prepared in case one of them sees it.

While not a moderator or admin, I believe this is quite likely why people are very rarely deleted for first infractions of rules, unless said rules are explicitly spelled out somewhere with the penalty listed as an automatic deletion.

This at least makes sense to me. But then, people who know me tell me I'm crazy.

Further, a written rule has more opportunities to be exploited, in that if it isn't spelled out explicitly, someone can always say "BUT IT DIDN'T SAY!!!!", whereas with the unwritten rule, they can't argue that.

Again, this makes sense to me. But I'm crazy.

Further, I think that the ideas put forth by Treznor and Nathicana make sense. While the website is geared towards a more adult age audience, people have to remember that there are indeed children and young people here. And yes, in the best of all worlds putting "Mature Audiences Only" on your thread would keep those people not ready for the content out.

But face it, it doesn't. Debating whether you can be responsible for parents failing to monitor their children's activity or not is pointless, cause you can't be. But you can be responsible for your own stuff, and remember that people who shouldn't be reading it could be reading it. If you remember that when writing, you ought to be okay.

As long as you aren't some sick bastard who enjoys trying to warp impressionable young children's minds with graphic images of possibly disgusting subjects.

if they exist but aren't written down, they don't exist, right?

Moderator rulings are often not placed into formal stickies, so there's a lot of case law flitting around that's enforced but hard to find, mostly because it's common sense.

They are still rules.

To ask a question again, should should I infer from your statements that this thread is official rules? To ask another question, can someone write some comprehensive rules for NS?

To ask a question again, should should I infer from your statements that this thread is official rules?

Not quite. There *is* an official rule in the ToS about 'obscene' content, and this, thus far, is the best set of guidelines for what that might actually mean. People are free to discuss this further, but suggesting there should be no content rules at all is kinda silly because there always have been.