NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, I tried to log in today and it said my nation didn't exist. I thought perhaps I spelled the name wrong, so I tried again. Upon reading TNP boards, it seems my nation was deleted. I have absolutely no clue why this happened. Honestly, I'm not too worried because I know I didn't do anything wrong. Maybe I accidentally sent an endo TG twice? I am really searching for an answer and I am coming up blank. I don't even think I sent an endo TG twice- I use firefox- it is easy to keep track of which nations I have contacted through the tabbed browsing. This is confusing and I hope I will at least be able to find out why I was deleted, because I have no clue. I have never multied, spammed, or done anything against the NS rules, so a little information as to why this happened would be appreciated.

-Franken

While you may be active on the forums, do you actually log into your nation at least every 28 days (60 in vacation mode)? Forum logons do not substitute for nation logons in such cases. It's possible it died from simple inactivity. If so, a resurrection request on the Getting Help page will resolve your issue.

I'm 99% sure that's not why Franken4Prez got deleted.

He logs on consistently to post on the regional HQ, and to send endorsement TGs.

The mods have been extra strict on rulings in TNP lately, because of the uprising in the region. There has been speculation that they are biased towards the current (illegitimate, IMHO) government, but I think I have more faith in them than that.

Either way, Franken is quite upset at having been deleted, and requests for a reason in #themodcave have been told they don't reveal reasons for deleting nations unless it's griefing.

Either way, Franken is quite upset at having been deleted, and requests for a reason in #themodcave have been told they don't reveal reasons for deleting nations unless it's griefing.

A clarification; we don't like to reveal reasons for deletions to players other than the one who was deleted. This is simply a matter of common courtesy, not airing dirty laundry in public.

If the nation in question asks, as Franken4Prez has done, we will be happy to explain our reasoning, as we are doing at present on IRC.

~ Tsar the Mod.

A clarification; we don't like to reveal reasons for deletions to players other than the one who was deleted. This is simply a matter of common courtesy, not airing dirty laundry in public.

Is this a new policy? I've seen many moderators tell nations why they were deleted in moderation threads before... maybe I've missed something in my time away.

That's because they ask in public. Bring it to a public forum, sure, done. Ask privately, then it's done in private. Until they make a move one way or the other, we err on the side of caution and keep it private.

Okie dokie Scolo.

But because the nation asked here too could it please be revealed? I'm just curious.
:p

It's on the North Pacific forums. The real ones.

Ask Franken4Prez. If he feels like divulging, he'll divulge.

That's because they ask in public. Bring it to a public forum, sure, done. Ask privately, then it's done in private. Until they make a move one way or the other, we err on the side of caution and keep it private.

He just asked it openly, right here in this thread. Way to create paranoia :p

Ask Franken4Prez. If he feels like divulging, he'll divulge.

Yeah, right:

Uh-oh
Nation Not Found: "Franken4Prez"
If possible, use your browser's BACK button to return and fix this.

Do you suppose he might have a new nation in the North Pacific, Carinthe?

Do you suppose he might have a new nation in the North Pacific, Carinthe?
maybe it has the name 'wonderingwhyiwasdelete'? ;)

maybe it has the name 'wonderingwhyiwasdelete'? ;)

As a good recruiter, I alredy knew that, but that was not the problem. read second part of this post:

Do you suppose he might have a new nation in the North Pacific, Carinthe?


I was just searching for the nation Franken4Prez, as suggested by you ;)

Ah, so you merely misinterpreted what I meant.

It was resolved privately in #themodcave between the player of Franken4Prez and the moderators involved; therefore, if that player wishes to share the logs with you, he will.

Ah, so you merely misinterpreted what I meant.

It was resolved privately in #themodcave between the player of Franken4Prez and the moderators involved; therefore, if that player wishes to share the logs with you, he will.

Misinterpreted by me. I thought he was restored. My bad. Problem solved :)

Here is the log. I think it is ironic when they say that they don't restore nations, when I helped get another nation restored. Anyway, here you go.

Session Start: Thu Feb 03 18:19:45 2005
Session Ident: #themodcave
* Now talking in #themodcave
* Topic is 'Is NS funking you up? #TheModCave - Please state your nation name on entry. To report things like bad nation names or mottos/animals/currencies etc. please use the Getting Help page! If no-one is here, leave a message describing the problem and we'll get to it later. '
* Set by Sirocco on Mon Jan 24 10:47:14
<franken> hello
<Scolopendra> Yo.
<vonKarma> can we help you?
<franken> hey scolo- i understand you were the mod involved in my deletion? I am sure that it was a mistake- the spamming, that is. I have slow internet and had other sites open, taxing my slow internet. I don't know if I did, but I may have pressed the "post message' button twice.
<franken> it was not intentional
<franken> I am "Franken4Prez"
<Tsaraine> cp from above for you;
<Tsaraine> franken: you see, I posted a message about the idiocy of Bush's State of the Union. I had other sites open in the firefox tabbed browsing, so I was taxing my slow connection. After I clicked to post my political message on TNP board, I was not sure what was going on, so maybe I clicked again. That is all I can think of. To be honest, I don't even think I posted it twice.
<franken> thanks
<Scolopendra> Hrm... what the warned tag says is political spam -and- an inappropriate currency after being warned for an inappropriate motto.
<franken> I never recall being warned for either, to be honest. I make a point to follow the rules.
<Scolopendra> Mon Mar 1 08:53:38 2004: cogitation sent franken4prez the telegram "Don't give nations offensive mottos. You have been warned."
<franken> the political spam is the message I refer to above in my post and the gracious re-post by Tsaraine.
<Scolopendra> And this was telegram political spam, not board spam.
<franken> Really? To who?
<franken> I am careful to not send extra messages.
<Scolopendra> Well, it's all rather moot if you decided to keep around the currency "Butt Nugget."
<franken> I was never warned for that, either. I really thought it was quite innocent. It was never my intention to offend anyone, it is an inside joke to me in RL that doesn't even relate to scatagolical humor. I can see how it would construed as such, but it wasn't what I meant.
<franken> I understand that the motto was a long time ago, so it is clear that this deletion relates to TG political spam. Any more details on that?
<Scolopendra> Unfortunately, once you're warned, it's your responsibility to make sure you're up to code. As it is, you weren't.
<franken> Okay, but does my deletion revolve around the TG spam, or this motto thing?
<Scolopendra> One moment, I'm checking.
<Scolopendra> Either or; probably both. Any offense after a warning is grounds for deletion.
<franken> but i was warned for an offensive motto, which I changed, and was deleted for a currency, for which I was not warned. is the offense after the warning need to be related to the matter that the warning was issued under, or can it be an unrelated matter?
<franken> that was confusing
<Scolopendra> No, it doesn't.
<Scolopendra> If someone gets warned for flaming then, say, switches to regional recruitment spam, then there's one warning, one delete.
<Scolopendra> Standard operating procedure.
<Scolopendra> As it is, you weren't touched for any board posts.
<franken> So it was related to regional political TGs? I think my "slow internet" excuse would be relevant there. I keep track of how far through the list of NP nations I have gone so I don't send to the same nation twice- perhaps I clicked "send telegram" twice accidentally. Any spamming was surely not intentional and I made an effort to not do so.
<Scolopendra> If I remember correctly, the telegrams were spaced out by a day or two. I doubt bad connection causes that sort of lag.
<Melkor> heh you'd be surprised
<franken> I guess my method was faulty- I would save the link to the page through the "list all nations"
<franken> so I would avoid sending messages to the same nations
<franken> if a nation was on page 45, in a few days, is there a possibility of it moving to a later page and having me accidentally send them a telegram again?
<Tsaraine> Well, numbers of nations in regions do change, as do nations' rankings within a region. It's not static.
<franken> it is the link up near the "the north pacific contains 7,292 nations", not the daily UN ranking
<franken> that i utilized in my campaign. I guess that isn't static either
<Tsaraine> Well, that wouldn't be static either - the North Pacific is a feeder and new nations do have a one in five chance of appearing there when they start.
<Scolopendra> Here we go.
<Scolopendra> Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:51:27 GMT -=- Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:01:00 GMT
<Scolopendra> Goram UNIX time.
<franken> what does that time refer to? the time the duplicate message was sent? how many times was it sent, and did this occur to many nations?
<franken> I want to know the details of my deletion, if it is not a problem.
<Scolopendra> Both were 'endorse me' telegrams with about 39 hours inbetween. Not going to name the user, but it isn't anyone I know of with an agenda. Hell, isn't anyone I know of period.
<Scolopendra> That's it. Repeated endorsement telegrams to a user, inappropriate currency, after a warning about the motto.
<franken> I don't want to know the user, just about the TG
<franken> so how many did he recieve, and did this happen to any other nations in your knowledge?
<Scolopendra> Question: do you type each one out or is it copy/pasted?
<franken> copy/paste, with occaisonal variations
<franken> is it illegal to do copy/paste?
<Scolopendra> No, just curious.
<franken> if it is a new nation with no endorsements, I type a part about their first endorsement.
<Scolopendra> Nope.
<franken> I was even careful not to post a link to either of the two NP boards to avoid moderation.
<Scolopendra> Rearry?
<Scolopendra> 'Mon Jan 17 02:51:27 2005 From: Franken4Prez
<Scolopendra> Hello! I am campaigning for the delegacy as an independent resident of the North Pacific. I find recent events to be unsettling and hope to bring more democracy and freedoms to the region. I have endorsed your nation as a token of goodwill and hope that you might return the favor. Read more about my candidacy here:
<Scolopendra> http://s4.invisionfree.com/TheNorthPacific...p?showtopic=153
<Scolopendra> -Franken4Prez',
<franken> at the beginning, when there was only one official NP board
<franken> I referenced it
<Scolopendra> 'Wed Jan 19 23:01:00 2005 From: Franken4Prez
<Scolopendra> Hello! I am campaigning for the delegacy as an independent resident of the North Pacific. I find recent events to not be in the democratic spirit of the North Pacific. I hope to bring a more open government to the people if I become delegate. I have endorsed your nation as a token of goodwill and hope that you might return the favor. Read more about my candidacy here:
<Scolopendra> http://s4.invisionfree.com/TheNorthPacific...p?showtopic=153
<Scolopendra> -Franken4Prez'
<franken> but when Moldavi took over and the s2 board was used by the resistance I removed the link to either board.
<franken> Besides, I wouldn't refer players to the s4 board after Moldavi took over- If i was going to tell people to go to any NP board, I would tell them to go to the s2, which I did not to avoid getting in trouble.
<franken> That message you posted above was sent before the s2 board was used by the resistance- a campaign to direct new players to the old board began after Moldavi took over the region and the mods were being strict about it so I avoided using any links
<Scolopendra> I'm sorry, but while that is indeed what brought the issue to my attention, it is not the sole reason for the delete.
<franken> Okay, but for a second there it looked like you were accusing me of lying, which I was not. I was just clarifying my statement
<franken> So it was the two messages sent to a nation accidentally? How would one go about avoiding this?
<franken> I would not want any other players to fall into the same problem.
* ComradeMyrth is now known as MyrthInBed
<Scolopendra> I'm not about to judge on intent, because I don't want to make suggestions on anyone's veracity--I just enforce the rules is all. Just like when fighting zombies, the key thing is to be aware--while keeping a list is a good idea, what I'd do is make a long list in Notepad or somesuch and then delete nations that I've already sent a message to off of it.
<Scolopendra> So even if it's a copy-paste affair, I won't load it up twice.
<franken> Sorry, but I think that goes a bit far. I tried my hardest to follow the rules, and in a feeder, when I have limited time (30-40 minutes after school), I used what resources I had. I dont use scripts, so are you suggesting one would first go all the way through the list of nations, compiling a notepad list, and then go through the list again deleting the names as they go?
<franken> I wont try to contest this moderation, but I don't know how ANYONE would be able to follow those rules if they are applied in this manner.
<franken> So basically nations that are endorsement swapping in a feeder need to keep track of who they have endorsed/sent messages to?
<Scolopendra> Nations that are politically campaigning, yes.
<franken> I want nations to avoid what I did, which seems to be quite difficult to avoid, since it was obviously an accident and there is virtually no other way for me to keep track. How would I get a list of all the nations?
<Scolopendra> You are responsible for your actions. I know there's some way to obtain XML feeds which essentially list all the people in the region; I think... mm... I guess you could ask Ballotonia or someone like that about that.
<Scolopendra> That or reverse it; write down everyone you contact and don't contact them again.
<franken> so you dont even know- as a regular player, how would I go about getting that?
<Scolopendra> It really isn't difficult as much as it requires someone to be responsible and attentive.
<franken> I was responsible and attentive- I kept track of where I was to avoid sending excess messages.
<Scolopendra> I just said. Contact someone who does know--I just enforce rules. I'm not a codemonkey.
<franken> I was not aware that the list I was using was not static
<Scolopendra> And it's all moot because your currency was -still- inappropriate.
<franken> I did not even think my currency was inappropriate. I was never warned for it.
<franken> I know you guys are overworked, and you are volunteers, but I am still annoyed with you.
<franken> Thanks for your time regardless.
<Scolopendra> And that's your prerogative. I do my job, nonetheless.
<franken> one last question- absolutely no chance of a restoration, am I correct?
<Scolopendra> This is the policy that has been in place for two years now--once you are warned, it is your responsibility to make sure you're inspection-ready in all things, not just what you were warned for. We do not restore nations deleted for rule infractions, intentional or otherwise.
<franken> I hope you will notice the manner in which I approached you was polite and noncombative. If I can't have my nation back I hope you will at least recognize that I was not your typical complainer. Also, I think you need to publicize the "one warning for one thing, be inspection ready for ANYTHING else", because I am a longtime player and was not aware of that rule and even when reading extensively through the moderation forum I did not see that. I think it would be prudent to post that rule somewhere- it could save other nations.
<Scolopendra> It's always been a two-strike system. Sufficient warnings on that are put up all throughout Moderation.
<Scolopendra> However, I did note that you have been polite and it is appreciated.
<franken> Well, thanks anyway.
<Scolopendra> I'm only sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Good night.

So, let me get this straight: if you get warned for having a bad national animal and then get warned for having a bad motto you'd get deleted. Okay.

So, let me get this straight: if you get warned for having a bad national animal and then get warned for having a bad motto you'd get deleted. Okay.

Two wrongs don't make a right; they make a modbomb.

Two wrongs don't make a right; they make a modbomb.

I think the rule, in that case, should read officially as "Offensive National Practice" with a listing to what that Practice was. For example, a bad currency can be listed as:

"Offensive National Practice (Currency)"

It'd clear up a lot of confusion.

The mods often delete on the second offense, no matter what the offenses were. Sometimes they're more lenient, and let a nation accrue a number of offenses before getting whacked. There are a few offenses (such as g0atze and UN multis) that generally earn an instant deletion.

I don't really see what the point of labeling currency and motto violations like that would be.

The mods often delete on the second offense, no matter what the offenses were. Sometimes they're more lenient, and let a nation accrue a number of offenses before getting whacked. There are a few offenses (such as g0atze and UN multis) that generally earn an instant deletion.

I don't really see what the point of labeling currency and motto violations like that would be.

It's a matter of technicality. If someone was warned of having a "bad currency" they might think, "well, don't have another bad currency or else I'll be deleted". If they were warned of having "bad national statistics" of which the currency was the specific problem, they might think "uh oh. Have to get my entire nation in line", thus making sure that everything- the flag, the motto, the currency and the national animal- are okay. If warnings are going to be about specific problems then unrelated infractions should not count against the earlier warnings, since they're not related to the earlier infraction. However, if warnings apply to a general problem which entail a host of specific problems then no one can say that they're unrelated.

So, let me get this straight: if you get warned for having a bad national animal and then get warned for having a bad motto you'd get deleted. Okay.

But I was not warned for my currency, and it was the reporting of a supposed spam message led to my deletion. I think there was a poor moderation involved. If I had thought my currency was moddable, I would have changed it. They are not related charges- my motto was switched upon my warning by Cogitation, and my currency had remained untouched throughout the game.

Basically, I am a longtime player who accidentally sent a message twice and had an annoying motto right when my nation was made. I think this was unnecessarily harsh.

<Scolopendra> You are responsible for your actions. I know there's some way to obtain XML feeds which essentially list all the people in the region; I think... mm... I guess you could ask Ballotonia or someone like that about that.

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/regiondata.cgi?region=the_pacific

( THE PACIFIC where I have a puppet now, for example, and is this the XML ya speak of ? )

*snorts loudly*

<NATIONS>---MANY---</NATIONS>

ROFL!!

It's a matter of technicality. If someone was warned of having a "bad currency" they might think, "well, don't have another bad currency or else I'll be deleted".If the "two strikes" rule was a new thing, as opposed to how things have run for well over 18 months now, I might agree. Being deleted after a second infraction has been around since right after Game Mods were installed.

If the "two strikes" rule was a new thing, as opposed to how things have run for well over 18 months now, I might agree. Being deleted after a second infraction has been around since right after Game Mods were installed.

I was just thinking it may cause less confusion if the "official" reasoning for an action is a generic thing that encompasses all the things you can do with your nation as opposed to specifics- and, judging by what happened here, I think there may be a few other nations (long-time or otherwise) that may also be confused.

Don't get me wrong- I agree with the rule- I just think it may need some clarification.

OK. Thank you for posting the transcript.