NationStates Jolt Archive

I submitted the proposal written here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7768085&postcount=1) this morning, and after wasting half a day lobbying for support, I find out it has been deleted. :mad:

Very disappointed with this, could someone please explain why this would have happened? I don't think it breaks any rules, and if it does I'd like to know so I can correct this.

in addition, I have resubmitted it. I see nothing wrong with the proposal.

I see nothing wrong in the actual draft, though perhaps you submitted it to the wrong catergory? Other than that, I really can't see any problem with it.

I thought that too....I had initially submitted it under human rights, but I have resubmitted under social justice....

the proposal is now submitted, and can be seen here (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=UN_proposal1/match=Indigenous)

Rights of Indigenous peoples
A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.

Category: Social Justice
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: Hirota

Description: Emphasizing that the UN has an important role to play in promoting and protecting the rights of indigenous peoples
Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal in rights to all other peoples, while recognizing the rights of all peoples to be different, and to be free from discrimination
Concerned indigenous peoples have been deprived of their human rights & fundamental freedoms, such as the colonization and the denial of their territories & resources
Recognizing the urgent need to respect & promote the rights of indigenous peoples, especially their rights to their territories & resources, which derive from their political, economic & social structures and from their cultures, traditions, histories & philosophies
Recognizing also that indigenous peoples have the right to determine their relationships with States in a spirit of coexistence, mutual benefit & respect
Solemnly proclaims the following United Nations Declaration concerning the Rights of Indigenous societies and peoples:
§1 Indigenous peoples are free and equal to other peoples in dignity & rights, and have the right to be free from any discrimination
§2 Indigenous peoples have the right to maintain & strengthen their political, economic, social & cultural characteristics, as well as their legal systems, while retaining the right to take part in the political, fiscal, social & cultural life of the State
§3 Indigenous peoples have the collective right to live in freedom, peace & security as distinct peoples and to guarantees against genocide & acts of violence, including the removal of indigenous minors from families & communities under any pretext
§4 Indigenous peoples have the right to maintain & develop their distinct identities & characteristics, including the right to be identified as indigenous and to be known as such
§5 Indigenous peoples shall not be forced from their lands or territories, no relocation shall take place without free & informed consent of the indigenous peoples and agreement on just & fair recompense
§6 Indigenous peoples have the right to protection & safety in times of conflict
§7 Indigenous peoples have the right to practice their cultural traditions & customs, and the right to maintain, protect and develop the past, present & future expression of their cultures, such as archaeological & historical sites, designs, ceremonies & technologies
§8 Indigenous peoples have the right to revitalize, use & develop their histories, languages, traditions, philosophies, writing systems & literatures, and to designate and retain their own names for places & persons
§9 Indigenous children have the right to all levels & forums of education, and if desired, educational institutions should develop curriculum appropriate to the needs & consistent with their culture
§10 Indigenous peoples have the right to have the dignity & diversity of their cultures, traditions & aspirations reflected in education & public information
§11 Indigenous peoples divided by national borders, have the right to maintain & develop contacts, relations & cooperation, including activities for spiritual, cultural, political, economic and social purposes, with other peoples across the borders
§12 States shall take effective & appropriate actions, in discussion with the indigenous peoples concerned, to give full effect to this Resolution

The proposal was deleted for being in the wrong category. You filed it under "Social Justice", which is for restricting economic freedoms. It should be under "Human Rights" which is for expanding personal freedoms.

The Moderator who deleted the proposal the first time apparently decided not to tag you for a UN proposal violation. Normally, I would also be lenient with this, but you chose to resubmit a Mod-deleted proposal without first asking what was wrong with it (and waiting for an answer from a Mod). This is your first official warning for a bad UN proposal. You will be permanently ejected from the UN on your third offense.

Mikitivity is right, "Social Justice" restricts economic freedoms, it doesn't expand them.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

The proposal was deleted for being in the wrong category. You filed it under "Social Justice", which is for expanding economic freedoms. It should be under "Human Rights" which is for expanding personal freedoms.Which it was the first time.....and I have a screen dump to prove it. :rolleyes: Normally, I would also be lenient with this, but you chose to resubmit a Mod-deleted proposal without first asking what was wrong with it (and waiting for an answer from a Mod).<bites tounge, mutters under breath>This is your first official warning for a bad UN proposal. You will be permanently ejected from the UN on your third offense.Shame the moderators can't be warned for bad moderation....whoever deleted it the first time should be the one being slapped on the wrist. But I don't think that accountability is a buzz word is it? :(

But hey, thanks for the waste of time which ever mod it was - I'm sure you'd find it annoying when you'd spend half a day lobbying hard only to find it wrongly deleted, and I'm sure you'd want to get it sorted out as soon as possible. But that's easy to forget on the other side of the fence isn't it?

The proposal was deleted for being in the wrong category. You filed it under "Social Justice", which is for expanding economic freedoms. It should be under "Human Rights" which is for expanding personal freedoms.

Point of clarification.

Aren't Social Justice resolutions used to *restrict* economic freedoms, and Free Trade resolutions used to expand economic freedoms???

I trust that if it's proven that the original proposal was correctly submitted then Hirota's warning will be retracted?

Hirota, in case nobody told you, it's just pointless to criticize/insult the mods. Just move on and redo it, whether you agree with the decision or not. But this was in the rules.

Hirota, in case nobody told you, it's just pointless to criticize/insult the mods. Just move on and redo it, whether you agree with the decision or not. But this was in the rules.
Although it is true that insulting won't get you anywhere, Hirota's point is valid, that the first proposal had nothing wrong with it. No I do understand that it was wrong to re-submit without finding out what was wrong with it the first time, but, according to what Cogitation sand Hirota said, there was nothing wrong with the first post. I ask that either a mod clarify or that the warning be removed.

Point of clarification.

Aren't Social Justice resolutions used to *restrict* economic freedoms, and Free Trade resolutions used to expand economic freedoms???
/me rereads his post.

Yes, you are correct. I have edited my post accordingly. I apologize for the confusion.

Which it was the first time.....and I have a screen dump to prove it. :rolleyes:
Was it?

Okay, let me contact the first Mod who handled this, then.

I trust that if it's proven that the original proposal was correctly submitted then Hirota's warning will be retracted?
If the first proposal was correctly submitted, then yes, the warning will be retracted.

I have to talk to the first Mod who handled this.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

Hirota, in case nobody told you, it's just pointless to criticize/insult the mods. Just move on and redo it, whether you agree with the decision or not. But this was in the rules.

Having been in Hirota's shoes, I actually understand his frustration. He is just upset, and in a while will be able to grin about this.



But this does bring up a concern of mine. The game and penalty system wasn't really planned to last for years. I still think that since the mods can view the UN warnings, that violations should disappear after some time ... say a year of "good UN behavior".

Some of us that have warnings, had them before the current "Before you Submit a Proposal" guidelines were cleaned up. In the case of a few other nations, the warnings were issued were really relatively new situations.

I understand that the case study of deleted proposals sticky is around to help all players learn from the mistakes of others, but there still are some key mistakes that aren't documented there. My warning came from the "international disaster assistance" (later good samaritan laws resolution) proposal. It would make an excellent case study of a resolution doing *too* much. It also would be a positive example, because Cog helped me clean it up into a pure Moral Decency proposal ... meaning it would help to point out that just because you've been zapped, all hope is not lost.

I don't have the time now, but I've always thought an index in the case study sticky thread might help. The way I think about proposals is largely based on the warning I got and via that "Before you Submit a proposal".

While I don't know how many warnings are issued for "the wrong category", simplying organizing the case study into examples based on *submitted* category and then having an index file pointing to what *should have been* links may help. (I realize this might not make sense ... but if it doesn't tap me again, and I'll make a short example ... I really honestly think this tool will help, as the UN resolution subject index on the UNA site seems to be going over pretty well. It certainly allows me to dig and hunt with little effort.) :)

A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.
A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.

Rights of Rights of Indigenous Peoples made no mention of "reduc[ing] income inequality" or "increas[ing] basic welfare". It was entirely about Human Rights. I also didn't add a warning, and it seemed like an honest mistake to me, and it was a well written proposal (it seems the Social Justice category causes no small amount of confusion due to its name).

Now, about the first time this was deleted, I can't say why: I didn't do it. There's no warning from a previous attempt. Are you sure it didn't autodelete?

Are you sure it didn't autodelete?

According to his thread in "United Nations" he submitted it only yesterday
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7923906&postcount=33

According to his thread in "United Nations" he submitted it only yesterday
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7923906&postcount=33
That post was made Jan 12, 3:46 AM EST.
Hack deleted the proposal on the same day at 5:44 AM.
Hack sent the following telegram to Hirota at 5:45 AM: "Rights of Indigenous peoples" really belongs under Human Rights, not Social Justice. Social Justice deals with income equality and welfare, not giving people equal rights under the law. No warning added.
Hirota posted this topic at 8:23 AM.
I deleted the second proposal at 9:50 AM. I sent a telegram to him issuing him an official warning shortly afterwards.

So "Hirota" was sent a "NationStates Moderators" telegram telling him which category to put it in the first time the proposal was deleted. Even if the proposal was in "Human Rights" the first time and was deleted by mistake, it should not have shown up as "Social Justice" the second time it was submitted.

I checked "Hirota"s telegram box earlier today; it was full, and my telegram to him was the third-oldest. It's possible that "Hirota" got so much telegram traffic that Hack's telegram to him got bumped off before he could see it. On this basis, I'm going to give "Hirota" the benefit of the doubt and retract the warning I issued (which leaves "Hirota" with a clean slate, now). I apologize for the inconvenience.

Advice to all: In the future, if your proposal is Mod-deleted, then ask why it was deleted before resubmitting it. Don't guess what was wrong with it, ask.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

I'm just wondering, why did you put Hirota in quotation marks?

Sometimes I put national names in quotation marks, just for clarity. No particular reason other than that.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Sometimes I put national names in quotation marks, just for clarity. No particular reason other than that.

Oh. I see. That's actually good, as when a nation name is also a word, it can be confusing. I should actually start doing that. Cool.

Good work, Cog.

Thank you cog,

For the record, I do apologise for jumping the gun and resubmitting it, and I also apologise for having a rant...It was not deserved :)