NationStates Jolt Archive

[Please post your support for...]

We, the people of the Rping community of Nation States, in order that we might form an environment more conducive to fun and worthwhile Rping, do most respectfully request that the following issues be addressed in a proper and appropriate manner.

1) A process of democratically electing moderators so as to assure a diverse cross-section of moderators from various backgrounds and various ideologies to decrease the likelihood of political vendettas.

2) Actual legitimate reasons for deletions. “Trust us we had to get him” or “You don’t need to know” are not acceptable explanations. Nor is the locking of all threads discussing the matter at all acceptable.

3) Openness in decisions. “The matter is between us and the nation involved” that doesn’t work too well when often the nation involved is unable to post because he was deleted or issued a temporary ban. Open communication never hurt anybody, unless one side has something to hide.

4) Admission and correction of mistakes. End the practice of, “We know we did wrong, oh well, we’re sorry…” and then flat-out refusing to correct the problem whatever it may be. Admission of mistakes is a key part to being unbiased and mature. We need people who can admit when they are wrong or might be wrong, not those who hold firm to theories with little supporting evidence other than wishful conclusions that they pray are true so as to save-face and so that they can appear to be correct.

5) An end to the refusal to take action against the godmodding spammers (Hataria and Sephiroth being prime examples), whom the community at large agrees contribute nothing and are “useless posters” who waste space and thus valuable bandwidth. If moderators have time to police IC content, they have time to decide that a poster with 100 “I nukz you111!!” threads, is a waste to the community at large.

6) An end to the political biases so prevalent and evident amongst the moderation staff. The posts they have been known to make in General forum would lead most reasonable individuals to conclude the moderators are very opinionated, and no person on the face of the Earth can keep biases from leaking into their opinions. Biases can and often do, whether consciously or subconsciously, taint opinions. We need moderates who are less opinionated in matters of ideology and not aggressively and blatantly hostile towards opposing viewpoints.

7) A real system of Moderator action review. We need a system where reviews are real, and not just for show. A system where fellow moderators look for two minutes at the issue, rule in favor of their friend, and then lock the thread, is nothing more than a farce and an event for show, and we need to stop pretending it is anything but a show. Nor is the system of letting weeks go by without issuing a decision anything more than a blatant attempt to hope that the issue is by then, largely forgotten and nobody is paying attention, anything more than a tactic whose use is evidence of the very nature of abuse of power.

8) A real system of Moderator accountability. Countless times have many innocent nations fallen prey to moderator abuse, even admitted later by the moderators involved. When has a moderator ever been called to account for their actions? When have these wronged nations ever received justice, rather than just “Oh well, we’re sorry.” Sorry doesn’t cut it when the problems persist and no attempt at reform is made.

9) An end to stifling and silencing debate. Whenever a topic appears that is distasteful to any mod, it is immediately and quietly deleted, and follow-up topics asking about it are often deleted immediately. Such censorship of legitimate and unoffending material is only counter-productive to a friendly and open RP environment.

10) One million users, so what? The boast that NS is special because over one million nations have come through her doors is an illusionary boast at best. How many of those one million have actually contributed to the RP environment of NS? How many post solely on general? How many were just there to spam with advertisements. Instead of making sensational statements about the success of the game due to quantity, NS should pride herself on quality, and seek to create an atmosphere that discourages random folks from just dropping in and posting a few “I nukz you11!” threads and leaving. Let it be clear, there are older and experienced Rpers willing to help greenhorns learn the ropes, but that noobs and immature folks are just not welcomed.

We believe that these changes would be much welcomed by the NS community at large and would lead only to improved Rping. Without change, stagnation results, and in stagnation grows disease and decay, bacteria, and a whole host of unhealthy things. Change when necessary is a wonderful thing and can, and often does, usher in a new era of prosperity. Without change, one could potentially wither and die from ill health. It is time for the sake of the health of the RP environment, the change be ushered in, and a new era proclaimed.


Sincerely,
The Concerned Rpers of Nation States

eh, sounds too bossy. I like it how it is. Sure there are the arguements now and again, but big deal, thats life.

Your post sounds good and all, but don't think for one moment that you are the first person to say this. In the year and half that I have been with NS I've seen evolve, and althought at time I have questioned Mods actions I understand that they are just like me, Human.

Personally myself I feel that things are fine the way they are. So the saying goes "If it is not broken don't fix it"

Everything that you purposed will only complicate things much more then they need to be.

eh, sounds too bossy. I like it how it is. Sure there are the arguements now and again, but big deal, thats life.

Your post sounds good and all, but don't think for one moment that you are the first person to say this. In the year and half that I have been with NS I've seen evolve, and althought at time I have questioned Mods actions I understand that they are just like me, Human.

Personally myself I feel that things are fine the way they are. So the saying goes "If it is not broken don't fix it"

Everything that you purposed will only complicate things much more then they need to be.

Complacent people are those who often say change is not necessary, when it so clearly is. They delude themselves into believing a Hitler or Stalin can be anything less than a Hitler or Stalin, thereby they can justify their refusal to take action and speak out for what is right.

Complacent people are those who often say change is not necessary, when it so clearly is. They delude themselves into believing a Hitler or Stalin can be anything less than a Hitler or Stalin, thereby they can justify their refusal to take action and speak out for what is right.
are you compareing me to Hitler and Stalin? This is an online forum, where its all just a bunch of 1s and 0s. No one is going to die because a Mod doesn't like them or doesn't delete another nation for saying, nuke nuke nuke, mwuhahaha

It works, and obviously people don't mind. If you don't like it, get some friends and set up a forum outside of this one.

In my opinion your changes are nothing more then a waste of time. I think that a Mod pissed you off and that this is your way of getting back. No mater if we elect Mods there will alway be player Mod conflicts. You purposal just means more work for me.

are you compareing me to Hitler and Stalin? This is an online forum, where its all just a bunch of 1s and 0s. No one is going to die because a Mod doesn't like them or doesn't delete another nation for saying, nuke nuke nuke, mwuhahaha

It works, and obviously people don't mind. If you don't like it, get some friends and set up a forum outside of this one.

Obviously not everybody is happy, you don't speak for everybody? Do you? Hitler and Stalin thought they spoke for all their people, but even Stalin's own daughter fled the USSR. Obviously not everybody is happy or else this movement to reform wouldn't be here.

In my opinion your changes are nothing more then a waste of time. I think that a Mod pissed you off and that this is your way of getting back. No mater if we elect Mods there will alway be player Mod conflicts. You purposal just means more work for me.

What work do you have to do? You're not a mod.

Obviously not everybody is happy, you don't speak for everybody? Do you? Hitler and Stalin thought they spoke for all their people, but even Stalin's own daughter fled the USSR. Obviously not everybody is happy or else this movement to reform wouldn't be here.


No, I don't speak for everybody, I don't claim to. But since there aren't very many people putting up posts saying reform is needed, I wouldn't say that there is much of an out cry for it.

This is someone else's brain child, and its set up and more people come to it, its still growing, so I would think its working. And again, don't compare me to Hitler or Stalin, jeesh, saying my opinion isn't being a socialist dicator

I, as an active Nationstates RPer, post my support for what JRV has proposed.

Obviously not everybody is happy, you don't speak for everybody? Do you? Hitler and Stalin thought they spoke for all their people, but even Stalin's own daughter fled the USSR. Obviously not everybody is happy or else this movement to reform wouldn't be here.

I'm not here to debate RL politics with you. If you want to do that start another more appropiate thread.

What one such as your self should do in this a situation is provide vaild case studies. I very much doubt that a NS Mod is going to come into my home and pull me and my family into the street and shoot us for speaking out against the government.

You can't even begin to compear an NS Mod to the USSR government.

I'm not here to debate RL politics with you. If you want to do that start another more appropiate thread.

What one such as your self should do in this a situation is provide vaild case studies. I very much doubt that a NS Mod is going to come into my home and pull me and my family into the street and shoot us for speaking out against the government.

You can't even begin to compear an NS Mod to the USSR government.


The NS mods have a history of using their power to delete threads, nations, and intimidate people, to become online "thought police" in a game forum supposedly devoted to freedom of ideas.

Though I wouldn't go to the point that he does, he's right; we do need some kind of change. Godmodders like EScrew shouldn't be allowed, yet they are. I think in general we should just raise the number of moderators; I for one would be more than happy to assume such a role; I'm on so often that I would be able to see practically anything and everything that goes on.

The NS mods have a history of using their power to delete threads, nations, and intimidate people, to become online "thought police" in a game forum supposedly devoted to freedom of ideas.


I take that you are not going to become a lawyer any time soon. You missed the entire point of my post. You want people to tkae you serious then you have case studies or evidence to support your claim.

For example post a link that support your claim, otherwise you look like just another person going on some wild rant.

Since I've played NS I've never had a Problem with a Mod.

I think we should democratically elect everything about JRV. See how he likes it. Also, if he has a site, why don't we elect who should run that.

I guarantee all who read this, that within the next 24 hours these threads I have created will be flowing with support. I promise…

I think we should democratically elect everything about JRV. See how he likes it. Also, if he has a site, why don't we elect who should run that.

Problems with elections is that it is nothing more then a giant popularity contest.

I guarantee all who read this, that within the next 24 hours these threads I have created will be flowing with support. I promise…


and I promise no more taxes....oh wait, nm

Problems with elections is that it is nothing more then a giant popularity contest.
Dude, he's right. Whether you admit it or not, he's right; we need change around here. Did you actually read the proposal thoroughly, or did you just skim it?

Dude, he's right. Whether you admit it or not, he's right; we need change around here. Did you actually read the proposal thoroughly, or did you just skim it?


I read, but as I said many times, he is going to have prove that a change is needed. Something that he has far from done as far as I'm concerned. I personally don't think that change is needed. ecspecially the changes he say ARE needed.

Moderation was created for just this purpose.

Well, purposes. To house addresses such as these, and to provide for answers.

Moved.

Since I've played NS I've never had a Problem with a Mod.


Do you kiss their ass? There is alot of people on here that are stuck so far up the mods ass its not funny. Also I hate those people that make worship the mods threads and bullshit like that. I'm not saying you are one of these people but alot of people are. This is just a question.

I, am not one of them people.

Problems with elections is that it is nothing more then a giant popularity contest.


That, I agree with you on. There has been many people out there who could have led and been great and maybe even changed the world forever, but never did make it because they were not popular enough amoung the people.

Do you kiss their ass? There is alot of people on here that are stuck so far up the mods ass its not funny. Also I hate those people that make worship the mods threads and bullshit like that. I'm not saying you are one of these people but alot of people are. This is just a question.

I, am not one of them people.

not really. The truth is that i spend most of my time only RPing, and rarely get into political debates, or anyother debate for that matter. However, tonight I must just in the mood for a good debate and this came along.

So since everything is based on personal experience, and not ever having a problem with a Mod I jumped on the side of keeping things the same. I have gave JRV a number of chance to debate with me, but he has yet to give me any GOOD proof. basically what I get from JRV is the following "Thing should be change cause I'm not happy with the current system."

If he could give some good examples it would increase his position, cause from what I see he has no position to stand on.

If JRV would actually listen to what I'm saying he would realize that I'm only trying to help him.

not really. The truth is that i spend most of my time only RPing, and rarely get into political debates, or anyother debate for that matter. However, tonight I must just in the mood for a good debate and this came along.

So since everything is based on personal experience, and not ever having a problem with a Mod I jumped on the side of keeping things the same. I have gave JRV a number of chance to debate with me, but he has yet to give me any GOOD proof. basically what I get from JRV is the following "Thing should be change cause I'm not happy with the current system."

If he could give some good examples it would increase his position, cause from what I see he has no position to stand on.


Ok I was just wanting to know thanks for not bitting my head off. I agree, you have gave him plenty of chances to give proof and yet nothing.

If JRV would actually listen to what I'm saying he would realize that I'm only trying to help him.


Yup :mp5:

I agree with most of the stuff on there except direct elections of moderators-- I really don't want someone getting to be a mod just because they're popular.

1) A process of democratically electing moderators so as to assure a diverse cross-section of moderators from various backgrounds and various ideologies to decrease the likelihood of political vendettas.

Never going to happen. The first Mods were chosen, by Max and [violet], from a pool generated by the NS community. It was a collosal mess. Hundreds of names, flame wars (yes, two canidates flamed each other in the nomination thread), hissy fits, and pages upon pages of worthless drivel with the occational insight. It had hundreds of posts and was pretty much a disaster. Somehow a group of Mods were chosen from that thread(Melkor Unchained, Menelmacar, and TJHairball are still active from that group).

And, of course, some people that wanted the post, and knew they were being considered became utterly unsufferable afterwards. Sometimes they hounded the new Mods, pointing out the tiniest error, sometimes they demanded resignations because they "never saw $mod online".

And let's not forget the crap the second round had to put up with. "I don't have to listen to you, New Mod. I've been a player longer, and I was considered the first time around!"

No, electing Mods is a disaster waiting to happen.

2) Actual legitimate reasons for deletions. “Trust us we had to get him” or “You don’t need to know” are not acceptable explanations. Nor is the locking of all threads discussing the matter at all acceptable.

Occationally, we can't give all the details. And you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a time where we said "Trust us[,] we had to get him". Actually, you'll find that we often say exactly why a player was deleted and that the arguement is over definitions, semantics, or "but X didn't get deleted!"

3) Openness in decisions. “The matter is between us and the nation involved” that doesn’t work too well when often the nation involved is unable to post because he was deleted or issued a temporary ban. Open communication never hurt anybody, unless one side has something to hide.

Hm. Real world example:

You screw up at work and get suspended. Would you rather work things out with your boss over the phone, in private, or have him walk around the office telling everybody what you did? Or have the phonecall with him be a conference call with everybody in the company? We keep things like this quiet out of respect for your privacy, not because we have "something to hide".

Also, unless a nation is IP banned, they can always communicate with the Mods through the game. If they are IP banned, then "open communication" is pointless, as only Administrators can IP ban, talking to Game Mods won't accomplish much.

4) Admission and correction of mistakes. End the practice of, “We know we did wrong, oh well, we’re sorry…” and then flat-out refusing to correct the problem whatever it may be.

This has happened? When mistakes are made, they are corrected. It may take time, but it does happen. Just because it's not on your schedule doesn't mean is isn't happening.

Admission of mistakes is a key part to being unbiased and mature. We need people who can admit when they are wrong or might be wrong, not those who hold firm to theories with little supporting evidence other than wishful conclusions that they pray are true so as to save-face and so that they can appear to be correct.

You have a large bucket of complaints and little by way of evidence. Do you have any specific cases, or are these just rants?

5) An end to the refusal to take action against the godmodding spammers (Hataria and Sephiroth being prime examples), whom the community at large agrees contribute nothing and are “useless posters” who waste space and thus valuable bandwidth. If moderators have time to police IC content, they have time to decide that a poster with 100 “I nukz you111!!” threads, is a waste to the community at large.

Inaccuracies abound. Godmodding is not against the rules. When Sephiroth has gotten spammy, he's been told to knock it off (one of his Fantasy Materia Warriors of D00M threads leaps to mind). Also, we don't have time to "police IC content". How many times have we said "Moderators do not police role-play"?

6) An end to the political biases so prevalent and evident amongst the moderation staff. The posts they have been known to make in General forum would lead most reasonable individuals to conclude the moderators are very opinionated, and no person on the face of the Earth can keep biases from leaking into their opinions. Biases can and often do, whether consciously or subconsciously, taint opinions.

Moderators are also players. We are allowed to hold political beliefs (just like players) and we are allowed to post said political beliefs in the General forum (just like players). Just because you may not like said beliefs does not mean that they are in violation of the site's T&C. Also if a Moderator seems to be going to far, or if it appears that they may take action based on ideology, they are quietly, privately told to relax by other Moderators. If it goes too far, then we, grudgingly, overrule the Moderator and, well, moderate them.

We need moderates who are less opinionated in matters of ideology and not aggressively and blatantly hostile towards opposing viewpoints.

Unopinionated people are boring and unlikely to make an impression on anybody, and thus unlikely to become Moderators, even if there was an election.

7) A real system of Moderator action review. We need a system where reviews are real, and not just for show.

I guess you forgot about (or wasn't around for) Assjackistan, huh? He was a 2 billion+ nation that was deleted because of his name. Players were none too thrilled with that decision (especially Assjackistan's player). They appealed to [violet]. [violet] overturned the Mod ruling, and went through the rather unpleasant process of changing his name.

Just because the Admin usually agrees with the Mods doesn't mean there isn't real review. I've been called on the carpet (again, privately) before when I was 'overzealous' as a Forum Mod, and I know that I would be again if I were to be 'overzealous' as a Game Mod.

A system where fellow moderators look for two minutes at the issue, rule in favor of their friend, and then lock the thread, is nothing more than a farce and an event for show, and we need to stop pretending it is anything but a show.

You need to read Moderation some more, my friend. Locks aren't used to stifle fruitful debate. They're used to stop wild speculation or bullheaded refusal to accept reality. And players can always appeal to salusa@nationstates.net

Nor is the system of letting weeks go by without issuing a decision anything more than a blatant attempt to hope that the issue is by then, largely forgotten and nobody is paying attention, anything more than a tactic whose use is evidence of the very nature of abuse of power.

I don't suppose it could be because the Moderators have real lives, and don't necessarily want to spend hours reviewing cases, especially over the holidays, now could it?

8) A real system of Moderator accountability. Countless times have many innocent nations fallen prey to moderator abuse, even admitted later by the moderators involved.

An accusation like this needs hard proof. Provide it.

When has a moderator ever been called to account for their actions? When have these wronged nations ever received justice, rather than just “Oh well, we’re sorry.” Sorry doesn’t cut it when the problems persist and no attempt at reform is made.

I've already answered this.

9) An end to stifling and silencing debate. Whenever a topic appears that is distasteful to any mod, it is immediately and quietly deleted, and follow-up topics asking about it are often deleted immediately.

Making stuff up here.

Such censorship of legitimate and unoffending material is only counter-productive to a friendly and open RP environment.

You must have missed it two weeks ago when a player quit because I wouldn't lock a thread. And one I personally found distasteful.

10) One million users, so what?

Nations created over the course of the game. Speaks to the popularity of the game, no?

The boast that NS is special because over one million nations have come through her doors is an illusionary boast at best.

When the projected nation-base was 300, I'd say 1 million is pretty special.

How many of those one million have actually contributed to the RP environment of NS? How many post solely on general?

I fail to see the relevance here.

How many were just there to spam with advertisements.

Well, quite a few, I'd say. I deleted 1008 last night.

Instead of making sensational statements about the success of the game due to quantity, NS should pride herself on quality, and seek to create an atmosphere that discourages random folks from just dropping in and posting a few “I nukz you11!” threads and leaving. Let it be clear, there are older and experienced Rpers willing to help greenhorns learn the ropes, but that noobs and immature folks are just not welcomed.

Personal opinion, irrelevant, and rather elitist. While I'm sure you're a master novelest, and that your RP can bring a tear to the eye, that's not something we require. There are countless players who started off as bad players who later matured into quality writers. If they were to be booted out for not living up to your standards, NS would be a lesser place.

Hell, my own writing (both fiction and this stuff) has markedly improved since I started. My first RP stuff was utter crap, and I'm thrilled that the purges flushed that junk away. Everybody improves, if they're willing.

You seem to have a real problem with people that aren't "good enough". Into that group you seem to toss all the General posters, and, I assume, region-players. Pity.

Also, NS' success is measured by how many people buy Max Barry's books after learning about them from NationStates, not by the quality of debate in General and not by the quality of RP in NS and II.

We believe that these changes would be much welcomed by the NS community at large and would lead only to improved Rping.

The "community at large" doesn't give a rip about the quality of the role-playing.

Without change, stagnation results, and in stagnation grows disease and decay, bacteria, and a whole host of unhealthy things.

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. And hate leads to THE DARK SIDE!

Oh, sorry. Where were we?

Change when necessary is a wonderful thing and can, and often does, usher in a new era of prosperity. Without change, one could potentially wither and die from ill health. It is time for the sake of the health of the RP environment, the change be ushered in, and a new era proclaimed.

Um. It's a game, dude (well, marketing tool, but still...). It's not some grand social experiment. Furthermore, the dynamic nature of the forums means that there will always be change. Nations come in, nations go out.

This doesn't strike me as being about Moderators or change at all. This strikes me as someone who doesn't like how other people Role-Play, and wants to try and force a change to make things "better". I'm sure he's hoping that Mod elections would lead to him, or someone who shares his views, to be elected, so he can do just what he accuses us of doing: stomping out what he doesn't like.

JRV brings up some very valid points, and I would like to see most members of the Moderation team address them, especially those in the RP community.

It's been quite some time since I've seen any of the first "elected" mods do much around NS. There are many factors that could contribute to that, but it's just an observation.

Perhaps, if there were more mods on NS, there wouldn't be so many problems...

I think Hack just destroyed all hope for this thread :D

I think Hack just destroyed all hope for this thread :D

it has been my experience that this is the way that these threads ends. And the fact the JRV has not posted in good while only show that he himself know that he wrong.

However, because I'm still in the mood for a good debate, I will restate my point that I think that elected Mods are a BAD idea. They create more problems then they solve.

I don't have the time to listen to what each person has to say about this or that, or what changes they will make. Nothing good can come elected Mods.

it has been my experience that this is the way that these threads ends. And the fact the JRV has not posted in good while only show that he himself know that he wrong.

Don't speculate, you aren't him, let him speak for himself.

I have a short statement to make:

He made some good points and answered some issues well, but the underlying point, of the necessity of reform, cannot be explained away with witty replies and a few well-placed one-liners.

Make no mistake, this is not the end of the thread and we will be making every effort to keep it alive and keep this discussion going. It is important that we have this discussion, it is important that we look seriously and openly at change. There is so much more to be said, and said it will be...

-RPFC

((I know Hack's already beaten me to it, but I started writing this post over an hour ago, and damnit, I'm going to post it! =p))

First of all, thank you for keeping your post for the most part civil. It's greatly appreciated. =) Now, I will try to address each point of your petition. (Keep in mind I'm horribly sleep deprived after a big New Years party, so please pardon any glaringly stupid typos and the like!)

1) A process of democratically electing moderators so as to assure a diverse cross-section of moderators from various backgrounds and various ideologies to decrease the likelihood of political vendettas.

There are several reasons Nationstates will never have democratic moderator elections. The largest is the often repeated fact that this is not a democracy. This is Max Barry's very own "Father Knows Best" state- it is his property, and therefore his word is law. We listen to people's opinions, and in fact the very first moderators Max selected partially based on player input.

The chance of political vendettas is virtually nil. The moderation staff is selected by Max Barry and [violet], based in part on input from the other moderators and the players, and currently contains "a diverse cross-section". We have moderators from all over the world and from all over the political and ideological spectrum. In fact, when not moderating the game, it's not hugely uncommon for several of the moderators to get into (good-natured) arguements over differing political ideals.

2) Actual legitimate reasons for deletions. “Trust us we had to get him” or “You don’t need to know” are not acceptable explanations. Nor is the locking of all threads discussing the matter at all acceptable.

I mean no offense, but this is largely a case of opinion. We do not "lock all of the threads". A brief look through the Moderation forum will show that people often debate decisions with the moderators, and are usually given reasons for the deletions. Threads that are locked are usually repeats of existing discussions or threads where the matter being discussed has been resolved.

Examples:
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=385793
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=384068
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=384936

3) Openness in decisions. “The matter is between us and the nation involved” that doesn’t work too well when often the nation involved is unable to post because he was deleted or issued a temporary ban. Open communication never hurt anybody, unless one side has something to hide.

Again, we usually will explain our actions when asked. The only times we will not explain is to protect the privacy of the player. (And sometimes on occasions where the answer is obvious or has been repeated numerous times already.) Examples can be found in the above threads.

4) Admission and correction of mistakes. End the practice of, “We know we did wrong, oh well, we’re sorry…” and then flat-out refusing to correct the problem whatever it may be. Admission of mistakes is a key part to being unbiased and mature. We need people who can admit when they are wrong or might be wrong, not those who hold firm to theories with little supporting evidence other than wishful conclusions that they pray are true so as to save-face and so that they can appear to be correct.

We are not perfect, however because of the nature of online gaming, we often must take a hard line to prevent rule breaking, resulting in some innocent people getting, pardon my language, screwed over. (The most commonly seen example of this is with suspected UN Multi nations.)

And contrary to what you appear to be implying, when we mess up, we will admit the mistake and correct if necessary and/or apologise for the conduct involved.

Most recent example:
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=385862
(Specifically this post: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7841116&postcount=15)

5) An end to the refusal to take action against the godmodding spammers (Hataria and Sephiroth being prime examples), whom the community at large agrees contribute nothing and are “useless posters” who waste space and thus valuable bandwidth. If moderators have time to police IC content, they have time to decide that a poster with 100 “I nukz you111!!” threads, is a waste to the community at large.

This is a slippery slope arguement. We take a hands-off approach towards moderating roleplay, because no two people will ever agree on what precisely counts as roleplay, let alone a forum with hundreds of users. This is not a democracy where the community decides what is and is not roleplay. This is a forum where people can have fun no matter what their particular roleplay style.

In addition, the roleplay aspect of the game was never intended by Max Barry, and he has decreed that we're not to get in the way of it, just to keep things that blatantly do not belong there out of the roleplay forums.

How would you feel if your particular style of roleplaying wasn't accepted here, and the "community at large" decided you were a useless poster? One person's roleplay is another's godmode. (A classic example in the timeless debate of modern-tech roleplay versus future-tech roleplay.)

In short, if we policed roleplay like you suggest above, people would be far less free to have fun playing out stuff with their nations. We would have to become even more strict, which seems to me rather counter-productive to what you're trying to achieve.

6) An end to the political biases so prevalent and evident amongst the moderation staff. The posts they have been known to make in General forum would lead most reasonable individuals to conclude the moderators are very opinionated, and no person on the face of the Earth can keep biases from leaking into their opinions. Biases can and often do, whether consciously or subconsciously, taint opinions. We need moderates who are less opinionated in matters of ideology and not aggressively and blatantly hostile towards opposing viewpoints.

First, the moderators are volunteers, and players. We are only human, we have our own opinions. Some of us are more outspoken than others. This is not an excuse for any behavior, merely a statement of fact. We all try very hard to keep our politics seperate from our moderation. Often when one mod sees a situation that could be considered questionable or where a bias could be perceived, that mod will consult with several of the other moderators (particularly the ones who would have a bias completely opposite theirs) and either get second opinions, or turn the case over to a mod who may not appear so biased in that particular case.

Second, if you have seen examples of moderator bias, please provide links either here, or in an email to Max Barry or [violet], or to SalusaSecondus. (For the record, Salusa has never been a moderator. He was a tech support volunteer, and then elevated to game administrator. He is not a part of the regular mod heirarchy.) Alternatively, such links can be emailed to me at RepProdtheMod@gmail.com. While I am part of the regular mod heirarchy, I also serve as forum administrator, and am therefore held to stringent conduct standards.

7) A real system of Moderator action review. We need a system where reviews are real, and not just for show. A system where fellow moderators look for two minutes at the issue, rule in favor of their friend, and then lock the thread, is nothing more than a farce and an event for show, and we need to stop pretending it is anything but a show. Nor is the system of letting weeks go by without issuing a decision anything more than a blatant attempt to hope that the issue is by then, largely forgotten and nobody is paying attention, anything more than a tactic whose use is evidence of the very nature of abuse of power.

There is a "real system" in place. Reviews are not for show. There have been several occasions where one moderator has strongly disagreed with another and called them on it in private. We avoid overruling eachother in public out of what you could call professional respect. GMC's post (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7841116&postcount=15) is a recent result of moderator review. Cogitation noted the complaint, looked it over, and found some fault in the ruling. It was brought up in private and discussed, ultimately resulting in the issued apology and greater explanation.

In addition, moderators always have Max Barry, [violet], and Salusa to answer to. They can see every action we do, and they will act on it should there be a reason. (I can recall at least two times where Max called the entire moderator squad onto the carpet and gave us all a firm talking-to about conduct.) If you feel there have been abuses or moderator misconduct, you can always contact one of them. If they find sufficient reason, they can, will, and have reprimanded moderators. There has yet to be a case of abuse severe enough to merit violently booting a mod out of power and punishing him or her.

8) A real system of Moderator accountability. Countless times have many innocent nations fallen prey to moderator abuse, even admitted later by the moderators involved. When has a moderator ever been called to account for their actions? When have these wronged nations ever received justice, rather than just “Oh well, we’re sorry.” Sorry doesn’t cut it when the problems persist and no attempt at reform is made.

This largely appears to be a repeat of point 7, and I again refer you to the game administrator. We are accountable, and there have been cases where wronged nations have received justice. Francos Spain was deleted once, but [violet] overturned the ruling and restored the deleted nation. Such instances are rare, but they do occur. We are not gods here. (Only Max can really claim that title! He can overrule [violet] and Salusa!)

9) An end to stifling and silencing debate. Whenever a topic appears that is distasteful to any mod, it is immediately and quietly deleted, and follow-up topics asking about it are often deleted immediately. Such censorship of legitimate and unoffending material is only counter-productive to a friendly and open RP environment.

Please provide examples. A quick spin through the Moderation or General forums shows quite clearly the opposite. People question the mods all the time, people argue things outside of moderating that we don't agree with, and yet thousands of these threads are still open and thriving. Your demand for moderation oversight of roleplay would be far more stifling and counter-productive to a friendly RP environment.

Also, it could be noted that if we silenced debate, this thread wouldn't be here right now.

10) One million users, so what? The boast that NS is special because over one million nations have come through her doors is an illusionary boast at best. How many of those one million have actually contributed to the RP environment of NS? How many post solely on general? How many were just there to spam with advertisements. Instead of making sensational statements about the success of the game due to quantity, NS should pride herself on quality, and seek to create an atmosphere that discourages random folks from just dropping in and posting a few “I nukz you11!” threads and leaving. Let it be clear, there are older and experienced Rpers willing to help greenhorns learn the ropes, but that noobs and immature folks are just not welcomed.

It should first be noted that the Nationstates forums were added to the game as an afterthought. There is more to Nationstates than the roleplayers. Nationstates is open to everyone who can abide by its rules. To enforce some sort of standard quality to an aspect of the game that was never intended would be an elitist stance to take. How many play the game that Max Barry created? Over 120,000 people at last check. The forums make up a microscopic portion of that. Are you saying that the "noobs" and "immature folks" aren't permitted to have fun in the forums in their own way? As hard as it may be for some of us to believe, some people enjoy that sort of activity. If you want to restrict the types of roleplay, there are plenty of other forums on the internet, many of which are spun off for groups of Nationstates players that do have such limitations.

I roleplay quite a bit myself, and personally, I don't like the "1 n00kz u!" types. But they're allowed to come here and goof off like that just as much as I am to develop my six space fleets and engage in diplomatic affairs and character-driven storylines.

All that said, I hope this sufficiently addresses your concerns. You are welcome to continue petitioning, but for the reasons listed above, you are not likely to start any sweeping changes to the game.

http://rpstudios.ian-justman.com/junk/CGgoods/Modsig2.JPG
~Evil Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~Master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

']All that said, I hope this sufficiently addresses your concerns. You are welcome to continue petitioning, but for the reasons listed above, you are not likely to start any sweeping changes to the game.

What if the majority of NS players felt this way? Would that have no affect whatsoever on anything around here? A "marketing tool" as NS is commonly referred to could be very deadly if the marketee turned against it.

What if the majority of NS players felt this way? Would that have no affect whatsoever on anything around here? A "marketing tool" as NS is commonly referred to could be very deadly if the marketee turned against it.

If that was the case, then Max might make some concessions. But precedent would indicate this isn't likely, as there has yet to ever be a "majority of NS players" ever agreeing on anything. If enough people get together and got their message across, hey, good for them. It's just highly unlikely that is ever going to happen.

http://rpstudios.ian-justman.com/junk/CGgoods/Modsig2.JPG
~Evil Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~Master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

If that was the case, then Max might make some concessions. But precedent would indicate this isn't likely, as there has yet to ever be a "majority of NS players" ever agreeing on anything. If enough people get together and got their message across, hey, good for them. It's just highly unlikely that is ever going to happen.

I agree. It's very unlikely that the majority of NS players are going to side with anything, let alone something in Moderation. I was just curious.

He made some good points and answered some issues well, but the underlying point, of the necessity of reform, cannot be explained away with witty replies and a few well-placed one-liners.

Make no mistake, this is not the end of the thread and we will be making every effort to keep it alive and keep this discussion going. It is important that we have this discussion, it is important that we look seriously and openly at change. There is so much more to be said, and said it will be...

I eagerly await a point-by-point rebuttal. Or at least something more than vague assertations of a growing wave of resentment.

I think the main problem is the seeming lack of moderators. We are constantly told that the mods are very overworked and i think 1 or 2 new mods would be a good idea but electing them is a silly idea. It means making the process public and as has ben stated before it will be the most popular posters who will become mods which most likely arent going to be the best canditate for the job.

As for the lack of a review i know there is one as in the past i wrote to the admin over a decision i felt was unjust. After a surprisingly short time i was sent a reply and one mod had there judgment overturned. No hassle at all, i think the site has a very good complaints system.

The one thing i have heard of that i thought was unfair was the failure to revive CM after it was deleted even though it was later found out that he was not FWS. I havent heard all the story but if that was true then that seems unfair. Point is although a general or regional payer may have no problem with continuing on as a smaller nation it means alot more to a rper but i guess theres not much he can do.

I know the mods already did this, but I'm high on caffeine and the evil streak of early morning just kicked in.

[Please post your support for...]

Posting my opposition.

We, the people of the Rping community of Nation States, in order that we might form an environment more conducive to fun and worthwhile Rping, do most respectfully request that the following issues be addressed in a proper and appropriate manner.

You want conducive, fun RPing? How about going out and, oh let's see, RPing? I've seen plenty of fun and conducive RPs on NS.

1) A process of democratically electing moderators so as to assure a diverse cross-section of moderators from various backgrounds and various ideologies to decrease the likelihood of political vendettas.

Popularity contest, will result in a bias in who gets to become mod.

2) Actual legitimate reasons for deletions. “Trust us we had to get him” or “You don’t need to know” are not acceptable explanations. Nor is the locking of all threads discussing the matter at all acceptable.

And why they deleted a nation is your business how?

3) Openness in decisions. “The matter is between us and the nation involved” that doesn’t work too well when often the nation involved is unable to post because he was deleted or issued a temporary ban. Open communication never hurt anybody, unless one side has something to hide.

Or, unless those who are trying to get the information are just being nosy and butting in to things that do not actually concern them.

4) Admission and correction of mistakes. End the practice of, “We know we did wrong, oh well, we’re sorry…” and then flat-out refusing to correct the problem whatever it may be. Admission of mistakes is a key part to being unbiased and mature. We need people who can admit when they are wrong or might be wrong, not those who hold firm to theories with little supporting evidence other than wishful conclusions that they pray are true so as to save-face and so that they can appear to be correct.

And how much mod experience do you have on NS? None? Thought so. You have as much information on the process they go through to delete a nation as I have about what the weather conditions on Neptune are.

5) An end to the refusal to take action against the godmodding spammers (Hataria and Sephiroth being prime examples), whom the community at large agrees contribute nothing and are “useless posters” who waste space and thus valuable bandwidth. If moderators have time to police IC content, they have time to decide that a poster with 100 “I nukz you111!!” threads, is a waste to the community at large.

How can the mods be unbiased if they are following the bias of the community?

6) An end to the political biases so prevalent and evident amongst the moderation staff. The posts they have been known to make in General forum would lead most reasonable individuals to conclude the moderators are very opinionated, and no person on the face of the Earth can keep biases from leaking into their opinions. Biases can and often do, whether consciously or subconsciously, taint opinions. We need moderates who are less opinionated in matters of ideology and not aggressively and blatantly hostile towards opposing viewpoints.

And what magical genius are you going to get to create the computer programs you are replacing the mods with? You've pretty much eliminated all of humanity with those requirements.

7) A real system of Moderator action review. We need a system where reviews are real, and not just for show. A system where fellow moderators look for two minutes at the issue, rule in favor of their friend, and then lock the thread, is nothing more than a farce and an event for show, and we need to stop pretending it is anything but a show. Nor is the system of letting weeks go by without issuing a decision anything more than a blatant attempt to hope that the issue is by then, largely forgotten and nobody is paying attention, anything more than a tactic whose use is evidence of the very nature of abuse of power.

Or, maybe they are busy with something related to the site that is more important than dealing with some random deleted poster's complaint? How many mods and admins are you planning on, anyway?

8) A real system of Moderator accountability. Countless times have many innocent nations fallen prey to moderator abuse, even admitted later by the moderators involved. When has a moderator ever been called to account for their actions? When have these wronged nations ever received justice, rather than just “Oh well, we’re sorry.” Sorry doesn’t cut it when the problems persist and no attempt at reform is made.

Evidence for this?

9) An end to stifling and silencing debate. Whenever a topic appears that is distasteful to any mod, it is immediately and quietly deleted, and follow-up topics asking about it are often deleted immediately. Such censorship of legitimate and unoffending material is only counter-productive to a friendly and open RP environment.

The only topics I have seen them quietly hush up have had very good reasons behind them, or at least reasons I am willing to accept.

10) One million users, so what? The boast that NS is special because over one million nations have come through her doors is an illusionary boast at best. How many of those one million have actually contributed to the RP environment of NS? How many post solely on general? How many were just there to spam with advertisements. Instead of making sensational statements about the success of the game due to quantity, NS should pride herself on quality, and seek to create an atmosphere that discourages random folks from just dropping in and posting a few “I nukz you11!” threads and leaving. Let it be clear, there are older and experienced Rpers willing to help greenhorns learn the ropes, but that noobs and immature folks are just not welcomed.

Ya know, you can choose to not allow people in your topics for a reason...

We believe that these changes would be much welcomed by the NS community at large and would lead only to improved Rping. Without change, stagnation results, and in stagnation grows disease and decay, bacteria, and a whole host of unhealthy things. Change when necessary is a wonderful thing and can, and often does, usher in a new era of prosperity. Without change, one could potentially wither and die from ill health. It is time for the sake of the health of the RP environment, the change be ushered in, and a new era proclaimed.

If change is needed, this is not it.

Complacent people are those who often say change is not necessary, when it so clearly is. They delude themselves into believing a Hitler or Stalin can be anything less than a Hitler or Stalin, thereby they can justify their refusal to take action and speak out for what is right.

Or, they are happy with the status quo. And I don't see where that piece of potential flamebait has any real influence on whether or not people should consider this.

Obviously not everybody is happy, you don't speak for everybody? Do you? Hitler and Stalin thought they spoke for all their people, but even Stalin's own daughter fled the USSR. Obviously not everybody is happy or else this movement to reform wouldn't be here.

You can't please everybody. And has it ever occured to you that only a very small minority may actually be the movement to reform? If it's just that minority, then no reform is needed.

The NS mods have a history of using their power to delete threads, nations, and intimidate people, to become online "thought police" in a game forum supposedly devoted to freedom of ideas.

Guess what? It's not your site, but Max Barry's. If he decides they are doing exactly what they need to do, you have no right to complain. After all, you don't pay a fee to post here, don't have to post here, and don't own the site. If you really hate how it is run this badly, then maybe this is not the site for you.

I guarantee all who read this, that within the next 24 hours these threads I have created will be flowing with support. I promise…

Doesn't look like it to me so far. And support or not, you still have no right to dictate or call for reform on a site you don't own or pay to access.

I don't understand why anyone would call to reform an online forum... if the OP really truly thinks there is some crazy moderator bias thing going on... why don't they just stop playing? Or convince their friends (who they claim feel the same way) to exodus with them to another board?

Either (dissatisfaction with the state of moderation)>(enjoyment of game), in which case they should leave or (enjoyment of game)>(dissatisfaction with the state of moderation), in which case there's no real reason to complain.

Personally, if I ever get to the point where I feel like the OP seems to, I wouldn't bother hanging about. It's not like this is the only political/RPing forum out there.

But then, the only problem I could possibly have with the mods is the sneaking suspicion that they're laughing at me behind my back (cue paranoia). And that's not exactly something that would make me want to leave such a great forum.

Volunteers. Every last one of 'em.
Human, to boot...well, most of 'em.

The Mods are just people, with some established guidelines to follow. Sometimes, they make mistakes, but usually, they sail along just fine, keeping things as peaceful and free-flowing as they can.

I am not a Mod. I cannot see myself ever wanting their job. I, for one, am happy they are there. The system works, at least as well as any other system that I have ever been part of online.

I am not against change for good reason, I AM against change because just because someone has a vendetta.

5) An end to the refusal to take action against the godmodding spammers (Hataria and Sephiroth being prime examples), whom the community at large agrees contribute nothing and are “useless posters” who waste space and thus valuable bandwidth. If moderators have time to police IC content, they have time to decide that a poster with 100 “I nukz you111!!” threads, is a waste to the community at large.

Just to pick this one out;

Could you explain who's standards of good and bad RP we'll be using? At various times, people have complained about futuretech, storefronts, overly character-orientated RP, fantasy settings, overly stat-based play...

One man's heaven is another man's hell, in the end. Extremely poor RP threads often are locked [ie the ones that amount to badly-disguised trolling of other players] but beyond that, there is a perfectly workable ignore function for RPers you don't like the work of.

After reading some of the author's "RP"s...he may want to reconsider this course of action.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but sometimes I wish I was blind.

[...] what the weather conditions on Neptune are.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess "cold".

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess "cold".

But you're assuming the sun is in it's current state... if you consider Neptune's state when the sun's a red giant, it wouldn't be cold, but rather toasty...

Or wait... maybe.... I have no facts. That'll learn me for trying to be a smart-arse.

*wanders off to watch Space on DVD again*

Edit: pssssh. Go me and my lack of facts. I think I was thinking of when the sun explodes and engulfs the solar system, since a red giant still shouldn't affect Neptune. Just ignore me. I've had too much coke, and haven't got any facts (apparently).

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess "cold".

I dunno. I was gonna say sunny with a chance of rain.

I dunno. I was gonna say sunny with a chance of rain.

Or, to quote an expert in the field:

'Winds light to variable...'

Bah. People don't have respect nowadays. Maybe you don't know what it was like before the Jolt move, JRV. The mods do an excellent job here and no-one should be questioning it. If you don't like how it's run, bugger off. [/north korea]

I guarantee all who read this, that within the next 24 hours these threads I have created will be flowing with support. I promise?
Ah, prodding your buddies into posting in a forum they never bother to visit in an attempt to make it look like you have support? Your dismissal of the valid moderator responses with "cannot be explained away with witty replies and a few well-placed one-liners" pretty much tells me you have no actual case yourself apart from vague accuations and whinery.

Fact is, most of the people who support the 'current administration' don't bother responding to this sort of thread. You mostly get the malcontents and whiners. As for me, I'm pretty much content with the way our current staff handles things. Put me solidly in the "opposes this proposal" camp.

I too oppose JRV's proposals. Don't see too much support flocking to your side, JRV. Maybe this would be a good time to retreat to a cave somewhere and weep.

Lekkerheid

On behalf of the MDSC, I'll support this petition in-principle, pending further review by myself and the MDSC. The posting of Steph's emails to Max have really gotten people fired up over "mod corruption" over at the MDSC. Many people are saying that their suspictions have been proven by the emails.

Well I certainly don't support it. The mods are fine. They admit wrongdoing, and say sorry.

If any reforms need to be made, it's that there needs to be more.

Well I certainly don't support it. The mods are fine. They admit wrongdoing, and say sorry.

If any reforms need to be made, it's that there needs to be more.

We need to discuss this in detail.

After further review, I have decided to withdraw my support, and MDSC's support, of this petition. Changes do be made, but a better petition needs to be written.

In rebuttal to Point 7, I submit Max's overruling (http://www.nationstates.net/news/2003/10/27/index.html#no_delegates) of Neut's ruling in Francos Spain v. Corinthe et al. - I really don't see how you can get more public than a News page posting.

I too oppose JRV's proposals. Don't see too much support flocking to your side, JRV. Maybe this would be a good time to retreat to a cave somewhere and weep.

Lekkerheid

An excellent suggestion for you JRV. As I said, you weren't around when the modtemples were here....

In rebuttal to Point 7, I submit Max's overruling (http://www.nationstates.net/news/2003/10/27/index.html#no_delegates) of Neut's ruling in Francos Spain v. Corinthe et al. - I really don't see how you can get more public than a News page posting.

That's an article on a system crash (or fire) in the UN.

That's an article on a system crash (or fire) in the UN.

*glances at creation dates of many posters in this thread*

Blah. Check out http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=279723&page=22&pp=20 et seq.

I don't understand why anyone would call to reform an online forum... if the OP really truly thinks there is some crazy moderator bias thing going on... why don't they just stop playing? Or convince their friends (who they claim feel the same way) to exodus with them to another board?

Either (dissatisfaction with the state of moderation)>(enjoyment of game), in which case they should leave or (enjoyment of game)>(dissatisfaction with the state of moderation), in which case there's no real reason to complain.

Personally, if I ever get to the point where I feel like the OP seems to, I wouldn't bother hanging about. It's not like this is the only political/RPing forum out there.

But then, the only problem I could possibly have with the mods is the sneaking suspicion that they're laughing at me behind my back (cue paranoia). And that's not exactly something that would make me want to leave such a great forum.

Because certain people feel they have some sort of unalienable right to criticise everything we do for the sake of it.
When someone comes under the hammer of moderator justice, there are usually two types of response.

The "Reasonable Complainant" - Reasonable Complainant may either accept their guilt, create another nation and never come in contact with a moderator again; or they may create a thread in Moderation asking why they were deleted and whether there was any chance that it was a mistake. The Moderators will review the case, give a verdict and an option to appeal to admin@nationstates.net, and it generally ends there.
The "Persecuted Victim" - Persecuted victim will immediately rush to the Moderation forum, often posting a title in RAWROMGALLCAPS informing us of how we're wrong, and all corrupt tyrants who drown kittens for fun. Often enough, "Persecuted Victim" will bring summon their allies (their own puppets or otherwise) to come and join in the posting of how their pal was the victim of an evil, corrupt, politically biased moderator. They'll demand to speak to another moderator, and then $other_moderator informs them that their deletion was just and will not be overturned but if they wish, they can e-mail the admin. This usually ends up with poor Salusa or [violet] having to read through a 600 word essay about how all the corrupt moderators are ruining this game for the victim, which automatically means that we're ruining it for the other 40,000 players, 98% of whom have never even come across a moderator. This essay may or may not be posted in Moderation and General for all to enjoy.
If we're all lucky enough, Persecuted Victim will now turn into a bastion of truth and justice for all players, creating endless threads in Moderation pointing out "examples" of how we're all evil, until the inevitable deletion and threat of an IP ban which of course proves how we're corrupt and biased censors, trying to protect our iron grip on the forum.


Not saying that's anyone in this thread, but it's an observation.



http://www.xtec.es/~lvallmaj/preso/stalin.jpg

Uncle Joe "Myrth" Stalin
Evil Moderator

There are but two words to sum everything up ... can anyone guess what they are?

There are but two words to sum everything up ... can anyone guess what they are?

You suck?

Too bad?

Tough shit?

Go away?

Banana split?

Sdaeriji, was that really necessary? :rolleyes:

Decisive Action.

There are but two words to sum everything up ... can anyone guess what they are?

And which will reveal everything.

Decisive Action.

I wondered who's puppet you were. We already have a topic on that and there was no need to start another one.

And which will reveal everything.



I wondered who's puppet you were. We already have a topic on that and there was no need to start another one.

JRV is NOT DA's puppet. He posted it at DA's request.

JRV is NOT DA's puppet. He posted it at DA's request.

Thankyou, Sevaris… That would be more accurate - another thing I forgot to mention in that rant, how the mods just assume they know everything.

You could say I am DA's puppet, but not in the sense that most people here associate the term with. I am not he...

[Please post your support for...]

We, the people of the Rping community of Nation States, in order that we might form an environment more conducive to fun and worthwhile Rping, do most respectfully request that the following issues be addressed in a proper and appropriate manner.

1) A process of democratically electing moderators so as to assure a diverse cross-section of moderators from various backgrounds and various ideologies to decrease the likelihood of political vendettas.

2) Actual legitimate reasons for deletions. “Trust us we had to get him” or “You don’t need to know” are not acceptable explanations. Nor is the locking of all threads discussing the matter at all acceptable.

3) Openness in decisions. “The matter is between us and the nation involved” that doesn’t work too well when often the nation involved is unable to post because he was deleted or issued a temporary ban. Open communication never hurt anybody, unless one side has something to hide.

4) Admission and correction of mistakes. End the practice of, “We know we did wrong, oh well, we’re sorry…” and then flat-out refusing to correct the problem whatever it may be. Admission of mistakes is a key part to being unbiased and mature. We need people who can admit when they are wrong or might be wrong, not those who hold firm to theories with little supporting evidence other than wishful conclusions that they pray are true so as to save-face and so that they can appear to be correct.

5) An end to the refusal to take action against the godmodding spammers (Hataria and Sephiroth being prime examples), whom the community at large agrees contribute nothing and are “useless posters” who waste space and thus valuable bandwidth. If moderators have time to police IC content, they have time to decide that a poster with 100 “I nukz you111!!” threads, is a waste to the community at large.

6) An end to the political biases so prevalent and evident amongst the moderation staff. The posts they have been known to make in General forum would lead most reasonable individuals to conclude the moderators are very opinionated, and no person on the face of the Earth can keep biases from leaking into their opinions. Biases can and often do, whether consciously or subconsciously, taint opinions. We need moderates who are less opinionated in matters of ideology and not aggressively and blatantly hostile towards opposing viewpoints.

7) A real system of Moderator action review. We need a system where reviews are real, and not just for show. A system where fellow moderators look for two minutes at the issue, rule in favor of their friend, and then lock the thread, is nothing more than a farce and an event for show, and we need to stop pretending it is anything but a show. Nor is the system of letting weeks go by without issuing a decision anything more than a blatant attempt to hope that the issue is by then, largely forgotten and nobody is paying attention, anything more than a tactic whose use is evidence of the very nature of abuse of power.

8) A real system of Moderator accountability. Countless times have many innocent nations fallen prey to moderator abuse, even admitted later by the moderators involved. When has a moderator ever been called to account for their actions? When have these wronged nations ever received justice, rather than just “Oh well, we’re sorry.” Sorry doesn’t cut it when the problems persist and no attempt at reform is made.

9) An end to stifling and silencing debate. Whenever a topic appears that is distasteful to any mod, it is immediately and quietly deleted, and follow-up topics asking about it are often deleted immediately. Such censorship of legitimate and unoffending material is only counter-productive to a friendly and open RP environment.

10) One million users, so what? The boast that NS is special because over one million nations have come through her doors is an illusionary boast at best. How many of those one million have actually contributed to the RP environment of NS? How many post solely on general? How many were just there to spam with advertisements. Instead of making sensational statements about the success of the game due to quantity, NS should pride herself on quality, and seek to create an atmosphere that discourages random folks from just dropping in and posting a few “I nukz you11!” threads and leaving. Let it be clear, there are older and experienced Rpers willing to help greenhorns learn the ropes, but that noobs and immature folks are just not welcomed.

We believe that these changes would be much welcomed by the NS community at large and would lead only to improved Rping. Without change, stagnation results, and in stagnation grows disease and decay, bacteria, and a whole host of unhealthy things. Change when necessary is a wonderful thing and can, and often does, usher in a new era of prosperity. Without change, one could potentially wither and die from ill health. It is time for the sake of the health of the RP environment, the change be ushered in, and a new era proclaimed.


Sincerely,
The Concerned Rpers of Nation States

Sorry if I came in late, but I want to just add my opinion on this topic...lol...wanted or not.

1) Democratically electing moderators would be a nightmare. Instead of getting capable mods, we'd be getting nations who have the most fanbois...each with their own agenda. Otherwise, they wouldn't be "running" for mod, now would they?

2) Did your parents always give you a complete answer? Does the government? No. Why? Your parents knew more than you, as does the government. Same goes for the mods. They have more important things to do than explain their every action to a bunch of people, especially when they know that their explaination will simply be picked apart and their words twisted by the trolls in question and used against them.

3) If a matter doesn't involve you, and you cannot offer any useful information or insight, stay out of it. "The matter is between us and the nation involved," is how it should be, and unsurprisingly, how it will be.

4) Here you finally have something. You're right...the mods rarely, if ever, admit mistakes. Then again, they rarely make them. The information they have at their disposal more often than not doesn't allow mistakes. The "mistakes" made by the mods are when mods go out of their way to "expand" the rules, or don't treat everyone equally. Then again, they're still human, and these instances happen very infrequently.

5) Moderators are not RP judges, and I think I speak for everyone when I say thank god. Try to improve people who cannot RP. Banning them because you don't like them is stupid.

6) You cannot change someone's political views, and the fact is that the majority of people on this site are liberals. As a conservative, it pisses me off sometimes because real life is alot more balanced, however these type of games lend themselves to liberals more than conservatives. As you said, "biases can and often do, whether consciously or subconsciously, taint opinions." Still, I'd much rather have a liberal mod who knew what he or she was doing than a moderate one or even a conservative who was incapable.

7) Mods stick together. It keeps the order and keeps away the morons who would try and pin mods against each other. As a moderator at a number of other high-member boards, I can assure you that they talk behind the scenes. Not everything has to be put before your eyes for you to look over and approve of.

8) Countless times? Honestly...mods are humans...and humans make mistakes. Personally I've called a mod to account for their actions a handful of times. You can even see an instance of me doing this is a calm, rational way in my thread titled "GMC Military Arms?" Still, I'm merely trying to either prove my point or prove myself correct in my "handful" of infortunate encounters. I'm not looking for "justice"...and I'm not quite sure what that justice would be.

9) If the topic is in fact distasteful, as you said it was in your example, than that is more counter-productive to a "friendly and open RP environment" than any bit of censorship could be. Besides, the deletion of discussion threads take place in that horrible spam fest and bandwith whore known as the general forum, not in NationStates or (chuckles) International Incidents where the RP happens.

10) Do you honestly think this is a recent problem. Since I joined there were n00bs who posted "I NUKE j00!!!!1111," and I am far from the oldest here, even though I've been here nearly two years now. We should pride ourselves on quality? Who are you to say that I don't? Who are you to say that the majority doesn't? It's simply different opinions on what 'quality' is. Also, while I had a hard time understanding it at first as well, people play this game for many different reasons and play it many different ways. As much as I dislike it, not everyone RP's...however unlike you I'm not trying to change it.

In addition, your stance on n00bs is saddening. In the same sentence that you say there are people out there who wish to help the newbies, you tell them that they aren't welcome. Naturally, those new to NS do not know the ropes, nor do they know the rules saying that you cannot simply take on the world/solar system/universe/etc. Instead of insulting them and backing them into a corner, why not help them yourself? There is little difference between a "greenhorn" (never heard that one before) and a n00b, and while you are correct that many times the difference is maturity, the situation in which they are recieved into the community dictates their "branding" as well. Many times a child who has an older sibling who he or she looks up to is more mature than a child without one because the child has a model to look up to. It is the same with new nations. They need to be taken under a wing and shown the ropes, not have them simply screamed at them.

Now, notice how off-topic this got? It shows how off-topic your petition was to begin with. The mods are here to keep order, not to judge RP's, RPers, n00bs, or to personally make your life hell. I hope this clears some things up if they haven't been cleared up already.

Sorry if I came in late, but I want to just add my opinion on this topic...lol...wanted or not.

No, by all means. Change is an important discussion and we encourage all to post, whether in support or against.

Good petition, better ideas.

Consider it signed.

JRV is NOT DA's puppet. He posted it at DA's request.

Thanks for confirming the source of this. I figured someone was behind the scenes pulling the strings, but now I know for sure it is DA.

He's lucky the mods and admins on here are nicer and fairer than most. On another forum, that would not only warrant him losing his case, he'd be IP banned and his ISP notified.

Thankyou, Sevaris… That would be more accurate - another thing I forgot to mention in that rant, how the mods just assume they know everything.

Where do you see the tag for NS mods beneath my name? Because if it's there, I want to know which forum I'm in charge of and why I wasn't notified of it.

I have yet to see the mods actually accuse anyone of anything about being puppets on this topic.

I don't think the mods should be rp police. That would ruin the fun of this site for almost everyone. And if there were forum police, most of us wouldn't be on this forum, myself included.

The mod appeal, in my opinion, works, even though I disagreed with their collective decision. Case in point was the deating of the original Whittier by then moderator Stephistan. I gave a spirited defense of my nation, but they're arguments were clearly better. So I accepted their decision.

It would seem to me, if I am correct, that having someone post on your behalf would border on "attempting to get around" a forum ban. If you want to help him, don't post on his behalf, you might get him in more trouble. Then I might be wrong. If I am, please disregard.

For the record, though I strongly disagreed with her opinions, and slightly disagreed with some of the actions she did, I think Steph. should have been allowed to express her opinion on the US election. History and all jurisprudence has shown that communities are often most benefited when you allow free discussion regardless of who it is that is speaking or who might be offended. What I agree with is when a mod takes action to keep the discussion civilized. There is no benefit in uncivil discussions where people are getting flamed. I also agree with her point that the Arafat death and US Elections should have been treated on the same level. Now before anyone gets all huffy puffy you ought to know I am just expressing my personal opinion.

Where do you see the tag for NS mods beneath my name? Because if it's there, I want to know which forum I'm in charge of and why I wasn't notified of it.

I have yet to see the mods actually accuse anyone of anything about being puppets on this topic

And where in my post do you see your name mentioned? ..

And where in my post do you see your name mentioned? ..

I'm the person making the majority of the assumptions about knowing what is going on. It applies by default.

The petition was drafted by a few of us annoyed with the deletion of Decisive Action. I suggested it, we typed it...
And, after talking it over between ourselves, we came to the conclusion that, yes, the deletion of Decisive Action was a mistake and we fixed it publically. He logged in an hour ago and isn't forumbanned or anything anymore.

My apologies if I'm missing something, but DA is a dead issue at the moment (no pun intended).

I'm the person making the majority of the assumptions about knowing what is going on. It applies by default.

Which makes it a not necessarily accurate application. Please, never assume because when you do you make an ass out of you and me…

And, after talking it over between ourselves, we came to the conclusion that, yes, the deletion of Decisive Action was a mistake and we fixed it publically. He logged in an hour ago and isn't forumbanned or anything anymore.

My apologies if I'm missing something, but DA is a dead issue at the moment (no pun intended).

Good. Then you may delete this thread, lock it down or whatever...

Which makes it a not necessarily accurate application. Please, never assume because when you do you make an ass out of you and me…

That's not wise to post on this forum.

And, after talking it over between ourselves, we came to the conclusion that, yes, the deletion of Decisive Action was a mistake and we fixed it publically. He logged in an hour ago and isn't forumbanned or anything anymore.

My apologies if I'm missing something, but DA is a dead issue at the moment (no pun intended).


yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Actually, I'm just wondering if there's anything else we can discuss. The discussion has been back and forth, and that's good--people have generally been civil in their disagreements and have debated it honestly back and forth. No harm done, no need for locking or whatever.

I'm just wondering if--seeing how apparently this is done in response to Decisive Action, which has been resolved--there is something else we can help you with, or some other issue that needs addressing?

For what my opinion is worth, which I imagine at this point isn't much.. I must also join the group of people who disagree with these so called "reforms" they will not happen and I do believe they are unreasonable.

My $0.02

Actually, I'm just wondering if there's anything else we can discuss. The discussion has been back and forth, and that's good--people have generally been civil in their disagreements and have debated it honestly back and forth. No harm done, no need for locking or whatever.

Quite right. I got told to bugger off and I likened someone to Stalin, but that's about as bad as it got.


Actually, I'm just wondering if there's anything else we can discuss. The discussion has been back and forth, and that's good--people have generally been civil in their disagreements and have debated it honestly back and forth. No harm done, no need for locking or whatever.

I'm just wondering if--seeing how apparently this is done in response to Decisive Action, which has been resolved--there is something else we can help you with, or some other issue that needs addressing?

Nah, not really. We never were very serious about actually democratically electing moderators, I personally would like to see it but acknowledge the complexity and problems of having a system like that.

It would be nice to have the moderators be more open with bannings though, informing us of their rulings (I mean when highly active and well known players like DA are suddenly banned, of course people are going to wonder why and ask questions). Anyway just consider that a suggestion, not a demand, not even a request. Thanks for listening, and sorry for the way in which this all came across.

For what my opinion is worth, which I imagine at this point isn't much.. I must also join the group of people who disagree with these so called "reforms" they will not happen and I do believe they are unreasonable.

My $0.02

Well duh. I thought that from the beginning, but hey anything's worth trying...

Finally: In response to someone bringing up about my own role-playing… :D. Fair point. I don’t actively engage in much actual role-playing at II myself (usually read, but seldom join in). Just don’t have the time to keep track of most threads, most of the people I would play with live in completely different time zones to mine and it is quite difficult. My most serious and best RP would have been in Female Slavery Inc. These days most of my rping is confined to stupid meetings, silly news articles which I doubt anybody actually reads or finds funny (expect me) and yeah… it was mostly the others talking anyway, I'm just the messenger.

Actually, since Scolo has bothered asking, I'm going to ask something. Why is IP banning still in force? This is the second acknowledged mistake in regards to DA, most likely because both DA and FWS live in the same city and because they both posses SBC Yahoo DSL lines. Banning based on NIC addresses is more foolproof, selective, and certainly not any technically harder. I'd almost be willing to bet that mistakes such as this would be reduced to almost nil.

As for these suggested reforms, they are a good idea for NS2 where the community will be footing the bill. In a paying invironment moderators should be accountable to the community at large, especially when they aren't paying anything themselves.

Actually, I'm just wondering if there's anything else we can discuss. The discussion has been back and forth, and that's good--people have generally been civil in their disagreements and have debated it honestly back and forth. No harm done, no need for locking or whatever.

I'm just wondering if--seeing how apparently this is done in response to Decisive Action, which has been resolved--there is something else we can help you with, or some other issue that needs addressing?

Could we talk about the list?

Actually, since Scolo has bothered asking, I'm going to ask something. Why is IP banning still in force? This is the second acknowledged mistake in regards to DA, most likely because both DA and FWS live in the same city and because they both posses SBC Yahoo DSL lines. Banning based on NIC addresses is more foolproof, selective, and certainly not any technically harder. I'd almost be willing to bet that mistakes such as this would be reduced to almost nil.

I’d like an answer to that also. It is a technicality that really should be sorted out.

As for these suggested reforms, they are a good idea for NS2 where the community will be footing the bill. In a paying invironment moderators should be accountable to the community at large, especially when they aren't paying anything themselves.

Indeed. I would actually probably join NS2 if that were the case, but if it’s just going to be like the current NS… then no thanks.

You have my support.

I'd like to apologise for my statement of "bugger off". While not being the worst profanity in the book, it didn't add anything. Will you accept my apology?

I'd like to apologise for my statement of "bugger off". While not being the worst profanity in the book, it didn't add anything. Will you accept my apology?

Of course. No harm done. I’d also like to apologize for the Stalin comments.

Actually, since Scolo has bothered asking, I'm going to ask something. Why is IP banning still in force? This is the second acknowledged mistake in regards to DA, most likely because both DA and FWS live in the same city and because they both posses SBC Yahoo DSL lines. Banning based on NIC addresses is more foolproof, selective, and certainly not any technically harder. I'd almost be willing to bet that mistakes such as this would be reduced to almost nil.

I'll address this one as I'm more the techie (I'll also add a note about the DA case).

You're referring to the MAC address of cards. First, this can be spoofed (I've done it myself), second, it gets stripped out the moment that your packet passes through a router, third, it isn't even really available at this level of networking. MAC addresses don't even exist in TCP/IP, they exist at the Ethernet level. Very different and completely useless to us.

As far as the DA ruling goes. That decision was actually made before this thread went up but I had some computer problems (as well as having to deal with the spammer) which caused the delay in resolution.

As far as the DA ruling goes. That decision was actually made before this thread went up but I had some computer problems (as well as having to deal with the spammer) which caused the delay in resolution.

Well at the time this thread was posted, DA was unawre of the decision and we still thought he was banned. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered...

I am a little disappointed with my so called support. Few in the end actually posted here…

Of course. No harm done. I’d also like to apologize for the Stalin comments.

I don't think that anyone took offence to that. Not me at least.

And, after talking it over between ourselves, we came to the conclusion that, yes, the deletion of Decisive Action was a mistake and we fixed it publically. He logged in an hour ago and isn't forumbanned or anything anymore.

My apologies if I'm missing something, but DA is a dead issue at the moment (no pun intended).


If you'll excuse my language....This is BULLSHIT!

First you banned CM for having the same ip as FWS,and he claimed that he just used the computer and he would never again. He goes and does it again and you DEETED him but now your re-instating him because some of his cronies whined about it and tried to remove your power?


God, this is such hypocricy.

If you'll excuse my language....This is BULLSHIT!

First you banned CM for having the same ip as FWS,and he claimed that he just used the computer and he would never again. He goes and does it again and you DEETED him but now your re-instating him because some of his cronies whined about it and tried to remove your power?


God, this is such hypocricy.
what are you talking about?

When DA was communist Missisipi he got banned for having the same Ip as Fascist white states, a user with a DOS.He claimed he was only using FWS' computer and that he would never use it again, and so DA was allowed to remain. Now he used it again.

All right, I'm gonna add to this. I have never made any secret of my dislike for DA, so don't any of you go mouthing off "you hate him, so you would say this." Yes, I despise him and his politics - and unless he's had a major change of heart in the last 4 months I don't believe a word of that stuff on the LOEL fora - but I will nonetheless say that this is a ludicrous decision, based purely upon the precedent it sets.

As Celack pointed out, DA was originally CM. CM was deleted because the mods were alerted to him having the exact same IP address as FWS, and thus CM was deleted. DA/CM was then allowed back (as DA) so long as (and I quote his own words):

...they said CM cannot be revived, but I can continue to RP, so long as I agree never to post at FWS's house again, and basically restrict myself to using my primary computer. (Since FWS and I are in the same militia and social club, I often posted from his house because I was often there)

The emphasis is my own, but you get the message. DA was then picked up as having FWS' IP address AGAIN, and was again allowed back. Strangely, however, Scol had already said that:

Currently, we can't tell the difference between you and FWS. As it stands, your nation won't come back.

This is the position, so far as I was aware, vis-a-vis all IP bans. It's the same with UN multis. Yet this rule has apparently been ignored, for DA's brilliant thesis on why he couldn't possibly have anything to do with this:

I can't control what IP address Ameritech issues me? can I? I don't decide what they do

and of course:

I am in a friends house in the city of mentor ohio, that happens to be the city he is in, we are not the same computer

This sets two dangerous precedents:

1) That the mods will reverse any decision on which they are not 100% certain of an offence and where there are enough noisy people;

2) That the same argument as seen here can be used by any player evading an IP ban, making the entire thing farcical. If the sum total of guile required to evade the surest of methods available, backed up by a fair bit of circumstancial evidence, is to say "it's not my fault I happen to have the same IP address as him" I see very little point in having the damned things. Why not just give up altogether? Why not let people like MagicChina back, for instance? After all, he could be someone else who just happens to act very similarly.

The mods should have stood by their original decision. This has made a mockery of the rules of the fora and has in my view cast serious doubt on the judgment of certain persons.

To be fair, the IP didn't resolve to FWS's exactly. It resolved to any Ameritech user in the city of Cleveland. Given that it's been 120 days and the IPs have probably rotated by now, it is reasonable in our judgement to err on the side of caution and decide that he posted it from his house and not FWS. If he's a college student, it makes sense that he not show up on his educational IP when he's far, far away from college.

If the IP were identical, there would've been no arguement. As it stands: a) it's a standard university vacation and b) he could be posting from anywhere in Cleveland, leniency is most appropriate.

To be fair, the IP didn't resolve to FWS's exactly. It resolved to any Ameritech user in the city of Cleveland. Given that it's been 120 days and the IPs have probably rotated by now, it is reasonable in our judgement to err on the side of caution and decide that he posted it from his house and not FWS. If he's a college student, it makes sense that he not show up on his educational IP when he's far, far away from college.

If the IP were identical, there would've been no arguement. As it stands: a) it's a standard university vacation and b) he could be posting from anywhere in Cleveland, leniency is most appropriate.

Where was all this leniency when you deleted Ur6?

Fair enough. Had I known those details I wouldn't have been quite so quick off the mark.

Edit: Wait a second. DA said he was posting in Mentor, and now his IP address is in Cleveland?

SBC resets my modem about once every thirty days. When break started it did it twice in a week. Given that my city is at least a tenth of the population of Clevelands, I think erring on the side of caution is probably the best solution.

Fair enough. Had I known those details I wouldn't have been quite so quick off the mark.

Edit: Wait a second. DA said he was posting in Mentor, and now his IP address is in Cleveland?

Okay, I think we have a case here to repealing the repeal.

This is confusing me, so I beg someone's indulgence. Simply:

1) How is it possible for him to be in one place, his IP address in another?

2) If it didn't match exactly, and it could be anyone in Cleveland, then why did the system flag it up? Surely there are more than 2 NS players in Cleveland...

This is confusing me, so I beg someone's indulgence. Simply:

1) How is it possible for him to be in one place, his IP address in another?
I think this is my mistake here. My brain is just thinking 'Cleveland' because Mentor is near it. I live in a small town next to Cincinatti and therefore I tell people I'm from Cincinatti--it's close enough and people know where that is.

2) If it didn't match exactly, and it could be anyone in Cleveland, then why did the system flag it up? Surely there are more than 2 NS players in Cleveland...
This was a human error (mine, actually) and not an automated system flag.

I take it then that at that range from Cleveland he'll still be issued with a "Cleveland" IP?

The only IP set that matched (out of W.X.Y.Z) was W. That gives a potential user-address base equal to X x Y x Z, or 255 to the third power. That's 16,581,375 possible addresses, only one of which is a true positive and sixteen million five hundred eighty one thousand three hundred seventy four false positives. The evidence was, quite simply, insufficient.

Yes. I live in Dearborn but my IP flags as Detroit. Mentor is probably a suburb of Cleveland.

When DA was communist Missisipi he got banned for having the same Ip as Fascist white states, a user with a DOS.He claimed he was only using FWS' computer and that he would never use it again, and so DA was allowed to remain. Now he used it again.
He didn't use the computer, he used the same ip. See the difference. Apparently some ISP's rotate IPs.

What is the point of ISP's rotating their IP addresses. Why not just keep them static?

What is the point of ISP's rotating their IP addresses. Why not just keep them static?

Security. Kinda hard to target somebody when they don't keep the same IP.

What is the point of ISP's rotating their IP addresses. Why not just keep them static?
Dynamic assignment of IPs is less labor-intensive. For static IPs, somebody's got to keep up with the databases and such. When an ISP has high customer turnover, DHCP is automatic and easy. Also, DHCP allows the company to exchange and service equipment much more easily than static.

ISPs also charge more to allow customers to run servers. Since web servers require a static IP to be effective, rotating IPs prevents lower-priced customers from getting free access to higher-cost services.

My IP lease expires fairly often, but since release and renewal are within a few seconds of each other, I usally draw the same address over and over again. It's not really an issue, except for poor moderators who have to make guesses about subnet ranges and such.

I'm still a tad puzzled: Scol. Assuming for a moment we have more than 1 active NSer in the area in and around Cleveland, and that all Cleveland IPs will have the same first digit sequence (say, 143.X.Y.Z), what made this IP so special that you were attracted to it? I'm just curious, I get the feeling there's something interesting in this about the way these systems work (and I love learning), so I'd appreciate enlightenment.

Yes. I live in Dearborn but my IP flags as Detroit. Mentor is probably a suburb of Cleveland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland%2C_Ohio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentor%2C_Ohio



Yes indeed it is, and I much prefer being in Mentor to being in Cleveland, or being anywhere to being in Cleveland. Which is why in my profile it says, "Leaving Cleveland as often as possible" which indeed I do.

As a matter of fact, this summer, I might be spending in Missouri with a gal who doesn't seem to mind the idea of company around for a month. I'd go to Alaska alone to get away from Cleveland for just a day, so why not go to Missouri which is much better than Alaska?



I should now like to thank the mods and admin for rectifying the problem and being open in admitting error, it takes good people to admit mistakes, I often have trouble myself, but all that aside, thank you. :)

all Cleveland IPs will have the same first digit sequence (say, 143.X.Y.Z),
Not all Cleveland customers will have an IP address starting with 143., nor will all 143.x.x.x users be from Cleveland. It's the fact that both DA and FWS were using the same ISP AND that ISP showed the IP range in the Cleveland area.

Depending on how heavily subscribed that provider is, the IP range for a single ISP home base might cover all of Ohio, possibly even other states, all of which could start with the same digits. As an example, the CIDR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_inter-domain_routing) for Cox Internet Atlanta is 68.0.0.0/12 (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=!%20NET-68-0-0-0-1). That means that Cox can have up to 1048576 clients on that segment before they have to lease more IP addresses. I've seen those Cox Atlanta IP addesses in North Carolina and Louisana, so the Atlanta designation is fairly meaningless.

If our hypothetical Atlanta user had a CIDR range of 68.0.0.0/19, that would have reduced the pool from over a million to 8192. That's actually a farily typical IP range for a WHOIS (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl) report. Had that been what Scolo listed, the deletion would most likely have been completely justified.

I should like to add, if I am indeed going to Missouri, I'll make it a point to try to remember to notify somebody on the mod staff so that they don't get puzzled if I suddenly show up in Missouri IP-wise.

Because certain people feel they have some sort of unalienable right to criticise everything we do for the sake of it.
When someone comes under the hammer of moderator justice, there are usually two types of response.
[list=1]
The "Reasonable Complainant" - Reasonable Complainant may either accept their guilt, create another nation and never come in contact with a moderator again; or they may create a thread in Moderation asking why they were deleted and whether there was any chance that it was a mistake. The Moderators will review the case, give a verdict and an option to appeal to admin@nationstates.net, and it generally ends there.

I sent an email to admin once. Just out of intrest should I have expected a reply or is it worked out without contact? (the email wasn't about my nation but of a case I saw being debated on the forums).

Yes. I live in Dearborn but my IP flags as Detroit. Mentor is probably a suburb of Cleveland.
Or in the same general location. I'm just outside of Joliet and dial into a Joliet hub for my access, but I still pop as Chicago. As would, most likely, someone as far south as Kankakee (~50 south of Chicago).

Joliet? Isn't that about 30 miles outside of Chicago? For one of the major hubs of the world wide web, that's a fair distance.

Hmm. Could this be counted as :eek: mods hijacking a thread?...

Hmm. Could this be counted as :eek: mods hijacking a thread?...

http://www.animeleague.net/~berrik/emot-laugh.gif

http://www.animeleague.net/~berrik/emot-laugh.gif

I think that's rabies.

Hmm. Could this be counted as :eek: mods hijacking a thread?...
Well, considering it was just a publicity stunt to try and bring back a nation, I don't suppose it's much of a loss.

Well, considering it was just a publicity stunt to try and bring back a nation, I don't suppose it's much of a loss.

Thats always your excuse...

I thought we traditionally blamed Billy Stalin (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/movedcomics/030418.gif).

Yes. I live in Dearborn but my IP flags as Detroit. Mentor is probably a suburb of Cleveland.

I live in Warren, but my IP, as I've been told, flags as Detroit as well.

Doesn't anyone get to pick their IP?

Not all Cleveland customers will have an IP address starting with 143., nor will all 143.x.x.x users be from Cleveland. It's the fact that both DA and FWS were using the same ISP AND that ISP showed the IP range in the Cleveland area.

Depending on how heavily subscribed that provider is, the IP range for a single ISP home base might cover all of Ohio, possibly even other states, all of which could start with the same digits. As an example, the CIDR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_inter-domain_routing) for Cox Internet Atlanta is 68.0.0.0/12 (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=!%20NET-68-0-0-0-1). That means that Cox can have up to 1048576 clients on that segment before they have to lease more IP addresses. I've seen those Cox Atlanta IP addesses in North Carolina and Louisana, so the Atlanta designation is fairly meaningless.

If our hypothetical Atlanta user had a CIDR range of 68.0.0.0/19, that would have reduced the pool from over a million to 8192. That's actually a farily typical IP range for a WHOIS (http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl) report. Had that been what Scolo listed, the deletion would most likely have been completely justified.

Righto, I see now. Thanks for that bit of elightenment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonothana
Hmm. Could this be counted as mods hijacking a thread?...

Well, considering it was just a publicity stunt to try and bring back a nation, I don't suppose it's much of a loss.

Well the thread has survived past the 24-hour mark, just like I promised. We told you we'd do everything to keep it alive, muwhahahaha :d

Although I'm not a mod, this looks like grave-digging to me.

Although I'm not a mod, this looks like grave-digging to me.

Uh... are you posting that in the right thread? :p This one only got started a little over 24 hours ago. Where the heck is gravedigging happening?

:D

Uh... are you posting that in the right thread? :p This one only got started a little over 24 hours ago. Where the heck is gravedigging happening?

:D

That and considering that a number of mods posted in this thread already...and scolo even said that it was good to keep it open...

I don't see the problem...

That and considering that a number of mods posted in this thread already...and scolo even said that it was good to keep it open...

I don't see the problem...

keep telling yourself that..

The usefulness of this thread has apparently expired.