NationStates Jolt Archive

To whom this concerns,

My proposal the Global Library and the NS HIV AIDS Act made by pilot to failed to meet its quorums. That is because it was taken off a day before it should of. I demand that both of them be put back on immediately so they can be push on to the UN member nations for approval or disapproval.

Sincerely,
The United States of Great Agnostica

To whom this concerns,

My proposal the Global Library and the NS HIV AIDS Act made by pilot to failed to meet its quorums. That is because it was taken off a day before it should of. I demand that both of them be put back on immediately so they can be push on to the UN member nations for approval or disapproval.

Sincerely,
The United States of Great Agnostica

I am not sure of the benevolance of the Moderation Staff, but I am not convinced yelling at them is going to actually get you anywhere.

Also, if you go to moderation or techinical (forums in another part of this group) then you might get an answer quicker :}

I Would Like To Talk To The Person Who Runs The Proposals( CLICK )

" Hello, you've connected to ... The North Pole, Santa's Work-Shop and all-season 7/11, hello and Merry Christmas ! "

( Cheesy carols music in the back-ground of the voice recording )

" How-ever, Santa is not in the office right now, please hold for the tone and then ... "

( BEEP )

:mad: : " HELLO ? I DEMAND - "

( CLICK )

" I'm sorry, your call has been dis-connected "

And a Very Merry Christmas to all those other kids at heart who can't ask Santa nicely and abuse the " ! " in their thread title, ho, ho, ho.

To whom this concerns,

My proposal the Global Library and the NS HIV AIDS Act made by pilot to failed to meet its quorums. That is because it was taken off a day before it should of. I demand that both of them be put back on immediately so they can be push on to the UN member nations for approval or disapproval.

Sincerely,
The United States of Great Agnostica

I had a very similar experience once. A proposal of mine wasn't up for approval the final day the proposal itself stated it would be. I thought it was mod intervention that kept my proposal from seeing its final day.

In actuality, it was an update misinterpretation (misinterpretted by me). I have only limited understanding here, but I think my explanation will help until Fris or another more clear on the specifics can address this. Apparently, if you submit your proposal late enough in the day (according to the GMT time zone jolt's based off of) it expires in the wee hours of the morning, making it so there isn't a final day of approving for it. I actually don't have a good feel, even after submitting many times, for when exactly the cut-off time is for this. It seems that if I submit before noon EDT my proposals get final days.

Anyway, I think I have a solution to your problem of not reaching quorum anyway. I've been watching your proposal and the support it's getting and I think I can almost guarantee its passage in the next resubmssion. When you get ready to resubmit, just give me a "call" beforehand.

I think a proposal can stay up for between 3.5 and 4.5 days, depending on where in the submission schedule it was posted. Also, remember that the boards are on GMT. If the proposal says it will expire Tuesday, Dec 21 and it expires at 12:01 AM (GMT) Tuesday, it met its obligation.

I wasn't paying attention to the Global Library, but I did happen to check Pilot's HIV proposal yesterday. It said it expired on Monday and as of Monday evening (US / EST) it was still there. It got removed on schedule.

I think my explanation will help until Fris or another more clear on the specifics can address this
I was going to ignore this topic, because it's a) rude and b) in the wrong forum; but apparently PC thinks I know stuff. So there ya go.

Dear Komoclaus,

I can no longer consume taffy and beer. As it disappeared before I was content, and I still desire to eat and drink taffy and beer. I demand you materialize more taffy and beer in my house, so that I may consume it.

Sincerely,

A taffy loving beer drinking idgit.

I think a proposal can stay up for between 3.5 and 4.5 days, depending on where in the submission schedule it was posted. Also, remember that the boards are on GMT. If the proposal says it will expire Tuesday, Dec 21 and it expires at 12:01 AM (GMT) Tuesday, it met its obligation.

I wasn't paying attention to the Global Library, but I did happen to check Pilot's HIV proposal yesterday. It said it expired on Monday and as of Monday evening (US / EST) it was still there. It got removed on schedule.


I was going to ignore this topic, because it's a) rude and b) in the wrong forum; but apparently PC thinks I know stuff. So there ya go.

I was watching the Global Library proposal, and though it technically claimed its expiration date was Tuesday, it was the *first* proposal with a Tuesday expiration date and IIRC on the third page. It had 73 endorsements when I last checked yesterday afternoon, and I would imagine it had many more by midnight.

In any event, NEVER trust the times listed on proposal expirations if you live in California. I say this, because I've seen many "Tuesday" proposals vanish sometime Tuesday early AM, and I've seen the same trend for other proposals.

I've often been online at midnight PST and I've yet to see any proposals actually disappear then, though most of us would assume this would be the case.

My advice is to resubmit the proposal and make a copy of who endorsed the proposal each day. On the last day copy the endorsement list over every two hours if you can spare the time. This way you'll have a list to start over your telegram campaigning if necessary.

Unless you got a notice from the moderators (and you'd know), I'm guessing based on what I saw when I read the proposal and where it was in the queue in relation to all the other proposals, that your proposal was not deleted, but honestly just expired.

Just try again.

Fris, is there a complete discussion of UN server timing anywhere? This question is coming up and also needs to be added to a UN FAQ. I've got the two questions I think are important queued up in my thread watch list, and could get working on a hard copy of something like this ... if folks want a DETAILED UN FAQ. (I've found I work better off-line ... don't know why. And yes, all my resolutions were penned by me lying on a floor with a sheet of notebook paper and a pencil.) :)

it was the *first* proposal with a Tuesday expiration date and IIRC on the third page.Then it belonged to the 'previous day's proposals' and went away with the morning update, around 7 AM (EST)
I've often been online at midnight PST and I've yet to see any proposals actually disappear then, I've watched them disappear in the morning update while refreshing the main UN page. Depending on the workload that day, it tended to be between 7 and 8 am EST. Something to the effect of "(Such and Such) proposal failed to reach quorum and was removed from (the List Proposals page)."
Fris, is there a complete discussion of UN server timing anywhere? This question is coming up and also needs to be added to a UN FAQ.No, and I don't think there should be. Figuring out the timing of the update is possible via trial and error (I've done it, so you can too), and it's every bit as much a part of the game as trying to guess the effects of issues. If we knew that the best time to submit proposals was "X:XX", we'd have a mad rush to try to submit at that time, totally defeating the purpose. There are a number of relevant questions to consider: Am I aiming primarily for a US or European audience?
Should I target my proposal to be up on weekdays, weekends, or some combination? Which way is best?
How and when should I begin a telegram campaign? Who are the valid targets?
What name should I choose for my proposal, and how does that affect my target audience's ability to search for or otherwise locate the proposal in that horrendous list?
Is there a current proposal in queue? How long has it been since we passed one? How long has it been since one failed? (How ready is my audience to pass *anything that moves*)There is more to creating a proposal than having a great idea and posting it. In the US Congress, lawmakers base many of their arguments on House or Senate rules, the filibuster provisions, making irrelevant motions and roll call votes, holiday schedules, flight times, TV appearances by party members, and anything they can use to further their agenda (or confound their opponents).

If you don't take the time to figure out the political, marketing, and technical limitations, you're missing out on half the fun.

No, and I don't think there should be. Figuring out the timing of the update is possible via trial and error (I've done it, so you can too), and it's every bit as much a part of the game as trying to guess the effects of issues.

If you don't take the time to figure out the political, marketing, and technical limitations, you're missing out on half the fun.

Thanks, but I think we are talking about two different things here. :)


When players reply with the angry face "Demanding" to know why their proposal was deleted early, having a FAQ explaining at least in general terms how the UN server updates (and I'm not talking about revealing the time of the update), it is clear that they aren't thinking that their proposal failed because they didn't understand the coded system, but instead are automatically assuming that a person deleted the proposal.

In this case, I really believe it was the server that updated the proposal away ... but as players, we tend to assume (incorrectly) that a Tuesday deadline means we've got til midnight Wednesday AM to finish our campaign.

While you are right, that part of getting a proposal to the UN floor is about understanding not only the mechnical details, but it is also about understanding the behavior of voters and Delegates, not everybody shares that opinion of what is fun and what is not.

The point of a FAQ is to simply answer frequently asked questions:

- Hey, are nations allowed to telegram me and ask me to change my vote?

- Why are nations telegramming me asking me to endorse their proposals?

- How can I endorse a proposal?

- How can I find a proposal?

- Is it possible to create a dynamic link to a proposal?

- Hey, my proposal was deleted a day earlier, why was this?

These aren't just questions we see here. I get a telegram asking me most of the above about once every other week (this is in part because when I see a proposal I like, I'll fire a friendly telegram to the author encouraging them). :)

This is what I mean by more complete. Not giving away trade secrets, but finding a middle ground and avoiding some of the frustration that follows.

Don't be so glum. Pilot's AIDS proposal has 140 approvals (six shy of quorum) and then got removed. I am annoyed a little bit that there can be that much support for something, yet it can still fail, but as I have learned, you should take the time to mark down all the delegates that approved your proposal on the first time through (second, third, etc) and then re-telegram them asking for them to endorse it again. If you're lucky, you'll get at least 100 back and instead of starting from zero, you start from 100.

Getting U.N. proposals through isn't meant to be easy. Trying to get it approved is half the fun. So, re-submit your proposal and try again.

I noticed similar phenomena happening when I put forward Habeas Corpus several times. Sometimes, it just seemed not to reach the final cut off. (I'm in Australia, so talking about EDT and PST just confuses me). Eventually, I managed to work out the best time for submission, and combined that with a TG list that had been built up over approximatly 5 submissions in order to get it over the line.
Moral of the story: Keep on trying. Eventually you'll get there, even if it takes 10+ times to do it.

I noticed similar phenomena happening when I put forward Habeas Corpus several times. Sometimes, it just seemed not to reach the final cut off. (I'm in Australia, so talking about EDT and PST just confuses me).

PST = GMT - 8 hours
EDT = EST - 1 hour (US Daylight Savings Time)
EST = GMT - 5 hours

I'll go into my mini rant now about Daylight Savings Time. I work with water quality and hydrodyanmic data. Why some field engineers and scientists record their data either in local standard time or GMT, other goof-balls (me being polite) insist on using "My watch reads, so gosh darn it" time. That means their field data comes back in PDT or PST, and they actually throw away their "double" data every October and report "missing" data every April.

When I go postal, you can count on the fact that it is because some twit doesn't understand why he is collecting data (which isn't a crime), but decides that he'll change the reporting format ... which often invalidates the data.


On the flip side, my parent's next door neighbor was a singalman in WWII in the Pacific and had to collect ocean temperature and current data several times a day. He asked his chief why he was having to wake up at odd hours to collect the data in the middle of a war, and the chief explained, "If we should win this war, there will be some kid who will use this data to help us better navigate these waters in the future. We're doing this because Washington wants to help that kid in the future, so that means you will continue to collect the data and report it how they like it."

My folk's neighbor thought it was great that in 1996 that kid from the future was me. I ended up using all sorts of ocean data, dating clear back to the 1930s. :)

Anyway, I've always thought that if it isn't LST or GMT, it really is a possible source of error and confusion. At least for LST, you'd only have to know the standard shift and could ignore the local customary shift.

I noticed similar phenomena happening when I put forward Habeas Corpus several times. Sometimes, it just seemed not to reach the final cut off. (I'm in Australia, so talking about EDT and PST just confuses me). Eventually, I managed to work out the best time for submission, and combined that with a TG list that had been built up over approximatly 5 submissions in order to get it over the line.
Moral of the story: Keep on trying. Eventually you'll get there, even if it takes 10+ times to do it.

For future note:

EDT = Eastern Daylight Time, which is EST minus 1 hour.
EST = Eastern Standard Time, which is GMT-5 (making EDT, GMT-6)

EST is also known as "Romeo Time" in military terminology

In Addition there is:
CST = Central Standard Time (GMT-6) / "Sierra"
MST = Mountain Standard Time (GMT-7) "Tango"
PST = Pacific Standard Time (GMT-8) "Uniform"

and their comparible Daylight Times (CDT, MDT, and PDT).


Australia has three:
The zones are:
"western" known as "Hotel", GMT+8
"central" known as "Indigo", GMT+9
"eastern" known as "Kilo", GMT+10

So, A time, EST (aka "Romeo") in central australia, you would add 14 hours.
12:00am EST = 4:00pm in central australia.

EDT = Eastern Daylight Time, which is EST minus 1 hour.
EST = Eastern Standard Time, which is GMT-5 (making EDT, GMT-6)
I think EDT is GMT-4, actually ... ahh, screw it. Go to a timezones website if you really want to know. Either that, or everyone posts in GMT and converts.

For future note:

EDT = Eastern Daylight Time, which is EST minus 1 hour.
EST = Eastern Standard Time, which is GMT-5 (making EDT, GMT-6)


Daylight Savings in when we shift our clocks ahead one hour. 6 pm becomes 7 pm and magically the sun is out "later".

Wouldn't moving the clock forward shift it *closer* to GMT? Making a GMT -5 a GMT -4?

Well, I can't help but be sarcastic on this one:

I'm the one in charge of proposals. I deleted it because I was drunk. No, you can't get it back. If you wish to file a complaint, find the DLE Complaints forum and post it there.

Actually, it's 'Daylight Saving' time. No 's'.

EST is also known as "Romeo Time" in military terminology

In Addition there is:
CST = Central Standard Time (GMT-6) / "Sierra"
MST = Mountain Standard Time (GMT-7) "Tango"
PST = Pacific Standard Time (GMT-8) "Uniform"

Ahhh, so that explains what "Zulu" time is.