NationStates Jolt Archive

Before you didn't understand what i meant. However this is the link to my ex flag http://www.ozziii.altervista.org/avatar/xen.jpg .
I don't want to speak about who killed more betwin nazism or communism, i want only to say http://www.ozziii.altervista.org/avatar/xen.jpg this is not a swastica.

if you see the other symbols i linked in the previus post, you understand this is not a svastic. Else all could "seem" what is not... if this is not a swastic i didn't went against the rules! Do you understand what i mean?

these are swastica

http://images.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http://www.revelationofjohn.com/swastica.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.revelationofjohn.com/Revel45.html&h=426&w=504&sz=33&tbnid=b56mIPIvywQJ:&tbnh=108&tbnw=127&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dswastica%26hl%3Dit%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http://www.revelationofjohn.com/swastica.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.revelationofjohn.com/Revel45.html&h=426&w=504&sz=33&tbnid=b56mIPIvywQJ:&tbnh=108&tbnw=127&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dswastica%26hl%3Dit%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http://www.birdhouse.org/images/betancourt/l-swas.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.birdhouse.org/images/betancourt/swas.html&h=600&w=600&sz=34&tbnid=Cd0hhVJAy3oJ:&tbnh=133&tbnw=133&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dswastica%26hl%3Dit%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http://www.goroadachi.com/etemenanki/swastica2.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.goroadachi.com/etemenanki/1999.htm&h=216&w=185&sz=2&tbnid=j9paNlGhBokJ:&tbnh=100&tbnw=86&start=10&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dswastica%26hl%3Dit%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

If you want to see swasticas, look for with google!

May I be the first to say that that looks VERY similar to a swastika.

May I be the first to say that that looks VERY similar to a swastika.
and may i say neither of us are mods but that looks damn cool, but not like a swastika

yes, it could be similiar(maybe for someone) but it's not!
It's a satanist symbol not a nazist symbol so it's not a swastica.

I must agree that it looks nothing like a swastika. There are modern day American corporations which use symbols that look alot more like swastikas than that, and nobody seems to make the connection...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=363696
http://www.ozziii.altervista.org/avatar/xen.jpg http://www.goroadachi.com/etemenanki/swastica2.gif
ok note that the flag in question is not on any angle as the swastica is normaly showen
also not that the flag in question has curved edges, where as the swastica has no curved edges
further the flag has a hole in its center, the swastica has none
and lastly the flag has pertruisions going in both the ccw and cw directions where on a swastica they only go cw
I must agree that it looks nothing like a swastika. There are modern day American corporations which use symbols that look alot more like swastikas than that, and nobody seems to make the connection...
such as??

such as??

Take the debate to General, please.

Take the debate to General, please.
not trying to debait i just never noticed it before

For example:

http://www.rt53recreation.com/Photo-Gallery/images/columbia_logo.jpg

That is almost the most unconnected idea in the history of the world.

if you see the other symbols i linked in the previus post, you understand this is not a svastic. Else all could "seem" what is not... if this is not a swastic i didn't went against the rules! Do you understand what i mean?
I understand what you mean. You're claiming that the image is not a swastica and that it should be allowed in NationStates flags.

The Moderator who removed the flag disagreed with you; that image closely resembles a swastika and (in the opinion of the Moderator who removed it) you were trying to get around the swastika flag ban with a swastika-like image.

Now that I have seen the image for myself, I'm inclined to agree with the original judgment; it looks like you're trying to use an image similar to the swastika to get around the swastika flag ban. UPDATE: There is some concern among the other Mods that this ruling is not correct. The matter is now under discussion by NationStates Moderators. Please await a final ruling.

For example:

http://www.rt53recreation.com/Photo-Gallery/images/columbia_logo.jpg
I see what you mean, but in my official opinion, that's a long stretch. That image looks a lot more like linoleum floor tiling than a swastika.

Ah, hold on a moment, I think I misunderstood you, before. You're claiming that the Columbia logo is closer to a swastika than the red-and-black image, above. You're also claiming that the Columbia image is not similar enough to fall under the swastika flag ban. Therefore, you're claming that the red-and-black image, above, should also not fall under the swastika flag ban.

If I understand you correctly, then I disagree: The red-and-black image is much closer to being a swastika than the Columbia logo.

Take the debate to General, please.
Swastikas and images meant to resemble swastikas are not permitted on NationStates flags. The debate about whether or not an image resembles a swastika is therefore relevant to discussions of NationStates policy and rules enforcement. Therefore, the debate belongs in "Moderation".

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

Swastikas and images meant to resemble swastikas are not permitted on NationStates flags. The debate about whether or not an image resembles a swastika is therefore relevant to discussions of NationStates policy and rules enforcement. Therefore, the debate belongs in "Moderation".

Cog, I was referring to Presgreif and RTW's comments about RL companies that have swastikas... not the actual debate on their place in NS. :p

UPDATE: It turns out that this ruling may not be correct. The matter is now under discussion by NationStates Moderators.

This is true. We're discussing this. To clarify, it is not against the rules to use a symbol to avoid the swastica ban. What needs the ruling is whether the symbol in question is similar enough to the swastika to fall under the ban.

Does this make sense? I'm just not sure if I explained it well.

This is true. We're discussing this. To clarify, it is not against the rules to use a symbol to avoid the swastica ban. What needs the ruling is whether the symbol in question is similar enough to the swastika to fall under the ban.

Does this make sense? I'm just not sure if I explained it well.
Makes sense to me. You guys are debating how closely the image in question resembles a swastika.

If it's not a Swastika, it is not a Swastika, but you can call me picky :p
I would simply try to figure out how it is meant, when the flag resembles a Swastika. Just check out the motto, animal and currency, for instance. People who have Swastikas as flag always want to make a point.

make me understand...
everytime some mod doesn't like a flag can say "it's a swastica!!! IT'S A SWASTICA!!!" then he can delete it without problems...?
ok this is the rule...
I showed my ex flag is not a swastica but you said "IT COULD MEANS IT COZ IT'S SIMILIAR" then i can't say anything more. ok

make me understand...
everytime some mod doesn't like a flag can say "it's a swastica!!! IT'S A SWASTICA!!!" then he can delete it without problems...?
ok this is the rule...
I showed my ex flag is not a swastica but you said "IT COULD MEANS IT COZ IT'S SIMILIAR" then i can't say anything more. ok

They've said they are debating it. Proving that if a mod does something wrong, it is rectified. Wait for the decision.

http://thorn969.homestead.com/files/Untitled-2.jpg

I guess if you look at it closely, it is awfully similar to a backwards swastika...

(I layered a backwards swastika over it.)

It still doesn't look that similar though. I would personally allow it, but I have no power so it doesn't matter what I say :D

http://thorn969.homestead.com/files/Untitled-2.jpg

I guess if you look at it closely, it is awfully similar to a backwards swastika...

(I layered a backwards swastika over it.)

It still doesn't look that similar though. I would personally allow it, but I have no power so it doesn't matter what I say :D
what happens when you overlay a normal one on it

This:

http://thorn969.homestead.com/files/Untitled-1.jpg

However, the rules state... well I can't find them right now but they say that it can't be anything like a swastika, upside down, backwards, forwards, green... whatever. No.

[violet] has decided that it's unacceptable.

- The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game Moderator

No matter how you manipulate it, I can see a Swatika in it. It is clearly a Swastika.
When someone makes a flag like that, it is only for one purpose. The players is searching for loopholes in the rules, because he knows them very well.

You guys are crazy and need to take art history 100, world history or a collection of other jr college level courses. Here is the first link google gave me after searching "swastika history."

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

Hitler didn't invent swastikas. They are symbols that date back almost 3000. The swastika was originally a symbol of creation that spun clockwise (notice how the original posters' swaztika spins clockwise?). The Nazis very intentionally spun the design around counter-clockwise to symbolize destruction. This was also done in some native american tribes mythology and also symbolized destruction. In REALITY the true meaning of the poster's flag is the exact OPPOSITE of what the Third Reich intended. Do you care about truth or reality? I'm not just splitting hairs here, you are devaluing this person and thousands of years of human cultural evolution not to mention the true meaning of important symbols while simultaneously spreading that ignorance and enforcing it upon thousands (yes yes you don't have to point out that this is free and people come here of their own accord you should be mature enough to just make the right decision here, k?).

Yes, swastika flag ban is in place to make sure nobody gets offended. How nice, but what is more offensive than unpopular images is ignorance. And what is more dangerous than offensive images is ignorance. Banning a flag that is not nazi symbolism, that the admins here admit in their very ruling is not nazi symbolism, that is infact the exact opposite of the nazi symbol is ignorance. Ignorance, no other word for it no nice way to phrase it. Does your ignorance offend you, does it make you feel uneasy, does it make you feel like you made a mistake, do you feel like you have more knowledge now, or are you more annoyed at the pretentious tone I am taking in this post? You should be able to come to the correct decision on this, and there is only one correct decision. Second time's a charm!

If I write you guys with a bunch of tearful emails about how offensive smiley faces are to me because of some immensely traumatic experiences does that mean smiley faces should be banned? What about tan uniforms that sort of look like a shirt hitler may have worn - according to this line of reasoning nobody should care what the shirt really is or how many other people may have worn shirts like that and how many other uses shirts like that may have had .. somebody could be offended.

The image is clearly not a Nazi swastika. And therefor cannot be viewed as such. I think the moderators need to step back and examine their ruling here "trying to get around the swastika ban by using something resembling a swastika" - is it a nazi swastika? No! then how is the ban applicable? Your ruling contains an admission that it is not a nazi swastika! hello!

Not to mention the amount of Soviet symbols that adorn what must be thousands of nations. Stalin wasn't great to the jews either. Stalin purged over 20 million people. Stalin puts hitler to shame - do you let stalin destroy the meaning behind marxist symbols? No, you don't. So I don't see any argument that can be made on this issue other than "we say so" and isn't this site supposed to be all about debate/discussion/governance etc etc? What about the US flag - offensive to native americans? Sure. Ban symbols from the third reich. Great, nobody is gonna challenge that - but what the hell does this guys symbol have to do with the third reich?

The owner of the game decided that he didn't want swasticas on flags. The primary Game Administrator decided that the flag in question was close enough to a swastica to be unacceptable. All the history lessons in the world won't change this.

There are no further lines of appeal.

Wow. Now, you may see this as a flame but there is no other word to describe what has happened here other than ignorant. I am highly offended.

Since there seems to be a problem with meanings/definition/reality here I will help you guys out.

Main Entry: ig·no·rant
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&nt
Function: adjective
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>

I bet you didn't even read the URL.
That means you are ignorant by choice, how sad.

If there is any ignorance, it is on your end.

This is not a new ruling, it was made on June 9th, 2003.

"]While this site generally allows for political debate and discussion, nations are held to a higher standard than forum posts, because there is no right of reply. An offensive post can be debated -- hopefully to the point where the poster learns something -- but an offensive flag, motto, or nation name just sits there.

The swastika is intricately associated with the Holocaust in public consciousness, and, as one of the greatest tragedies of the last century, it can reasonably be considered offensive for players to appear to endorse or celebrate it.

I understand that at least a few players who use swastikas in their flags do not intend this outcome, and can probably give me a long history lesson on the symbol; nevertheless, that is not the message the image sends.
"]In response to questions: I'm only addressing the swastika here. I understand that there are many other symbols that are offensive to other people, and it's arbritrary to draw a line in the sand. Nevertheless, that's what needs to be done.

Reverse swastikas are prohibited, as are yellow swastikas, or 3D swastikas, or anything else that looks an awful lot like a swastika.

There is a thread with over 400 posts in the Archive, titled (oddly enough) "Ruling on swastikas in flags". It's the only sticky in that forum, so it'll be pretty easy to spot.

This is not something that is open for debate. There are no lines of appeals for this ruling. Swasticas are banned, period. I don't care which culture invented them, or how Hitler perverted them. I also don't need to read your link: I've been given enough histories of the swastica to last a life time. You are hardly the first person to argue its history, and the responce is (as it always is): "It doesn't matter."

Arguing with me will accomplish nothing. My personal opinion on the rule amounts nothing, just like your opinion. Remember: this is a privately owned site and the owner may outlaw anything he wants. If you don't like the ruling, you have two options: Leave, or cope.

Ohh yess daddy.
I will leave or cope.

This makes me want to go out and find some 80 year old veteran of 45th infantry division who puts this on his division's insignia on his flag

http://store.45thdivisionmuseum.com/orinpa.html

Just so you can ban a guy who fought fascism for being patriotic in a way that may offend the stupid.

Ok, let me say this once more:

WE KNOW THE HISTORY OF THE SWASTIKA

Now, to make it slightly more clear, I shall explain it again:
Sabemos la historia del swastika.
Nous savons l'histoire du svastika.
Wir kennen die Geschichte des Hakenkreuzes.

We're not ignorant, we know our facts and our history.

The fact is, as far as this ruling goes, We don't care.

The owner of the game has determined that the swastika is banned. If you don't like that, leave. There is no one to appeal to. There is nothing to argue. We don't need to justify this ruling, it simply is.

Now, I'm going to explain one more thing to you, and I'm going to explain it once, and I sincerely hope that you understand it: You are going to drop this.

Ohh yess daddy.
I will leave or cope.

This makes me want to go out and find some 80 year old veteran of 45th infantry division who puts this on his division's insignia on his flag

http://store.45thdivisionmuseum.com/orinpa.html

Just so you can ban a guy who fought fascism for being patriotic in a way that may offend the stupid.

It is not the flag, but the symbol that is banned. I am perfectly sure that the 80 years old veteran understands why. Especially if that 80 y.o. veteran has fought the nazis himself. This is a personal opinion of Max. Not some sort of conspiracy against religions and war veterans.
Max doesn't like Swastikas, period! For all we know his grandparents might have died in one of the nazicamps. You show little respect and understanding for the man who gave you the opportunity to play this wonderful game.

[violet] has decided that it's unacceptable.

- The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game ModeratorI see also that Salusa made a good point of it too ... lock this now, perhaps ... ?

It looks like a Maltese cross:
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.patriotstainless.com/items/graphics/so02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.patriotstainless.com/items/so02.html&h=154&w=173&sz=6&tbnid=ES0kkb3lOMAJ:&tbnh=83&tbnw=93&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaltese%2Bcross%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

— in the manner of a swastika.

Noticably Swastika-like, but more identifiable as a Maltese cross. (I'm in no way objecting, just commenting, please don't hunt me down ... )

[violet] hath spoken.