NationStates Jolt Archive

This morning my nation in Alpha Centauri "UNS Unity" received a telegram from moderators saying:

"You will clear the banlist and distribute the password immediately."

Now this is odd on two counts:

1) I did distribute the password to all natives inside the region and the only native I had at that point ejected had already returned. I decided, however, that since I no longer needed the password I would simply remove it and save any trouble.

2) The only nations on the banlist (with the exception of one which was already on there before the invasion, was not ejected by me and has now been removed) were non natives, and as far as I (and the rest of DEN) is aware, it is legal to eject and ban non-natives.

I stated this in a report to the mods lodged via FAQ and received the following responce:

"You will clear the banlist immediately."

Now I have principles, and I will not give into people like this who seem to insist and making me remove nations from the banlist (and therefore give an unfair and basically illegal advantage to the natives and defenders) even though I have broken no rule and I am perfectly entitled to leave them there.

If I get a responce here, on an open forum, where the whole of NS can see it from both the mod who dealt with this case and another, impartial mod, then I will of course remove it, but until then I refuse on principle.


As a side note, I also received this telegram:

"The Unholy Empire of Murderkill
Received: 10 hours ago Insult of the day:

You're a lice infested, booger eating, sh*t sucking, ass ramming, cock gobbling, impotent little man suffering from a brain parasite gotten from licking feces out of the ass of a wild baboon.

Have a nice day...

...dipsh*t."

This nation had previously made a similar (although longer, and filled with more random obsenities and death threats) post on the message board which I reported, but my report was ignored.


This experience as a whole has seriously weakened by previously firm belief in the impartiality of the moderation staff, despite all evidence that seems to have been presented to the contary. I hope that this bad experience can be dealt with by moderation staff in a fair and civilised manner, and that none such will happen again, unless several rules have indeed changed over night and banning non-natives is now illegal, and flaming is now also legal.

Thankyou for your time and due consideration.

You expect us to be nice after you invaded our region, well, we're not going to be. As mentioned before, Murderkill is the way he is and he never has been anything else.

Besides that, I see no rules that say you can eject non natives. The only rule I see is that you can eject trouble makers and as far as I'm concerned, nations who com to an aid don't fall under that. They come to help, you're the one who makes trouble but we can't eject you because you keep ejecting nations who want to help us.

You want to play one part of the game, but simply don't want to participate in the other part which can leed to your own ejection. We're the ones being terrorised, we're the ones being calles stupid, we're the ones you invaded but don't give the slightest change to free ourselves.

And finaly, you're the one who ejects a nation when you feel he gets to much endorsements. Was he a trouble maker? Was he a non native? No. So if anyone should play by the rules it's you.

I sure would like to see the part of the rules that state the things you are claiming.

no.. non natives can be ejected. they aren't "wanted" by the new occupiers of the region, and they have no right to be there.....

Slewyk, I didnt post this here to have another argument with you. I want a MODERATOR RESPONCE, nothing more, nothing less.

And what part of the rules does state that? I don't see it.

But, I'm pretty sure he can not just eject a native nation when this nation gets to much endorsements. He ejected our former delegate after taking over crashing the region.

He ejected another native nation this morning who was getting "to much" endorsements after which he felt "threathening". So how can that be explained as fair and playing by the rules?

Slewyk, I didnt post this here to have another argument with you. I want a MODERATOR RESPONCE, nothing more, nothing less.
^^

And I want a response to, based on both sides of the story and not just yours.

If you want to make a rules inquiry then create your own thread, do not hijack mine. If you want to see the outcome of this thread then read, do not post.

I understand Praedonia's point.

Yes,it is legal to eject non natives and leave them on the banlist,but not while a password is in effect.I believe that's what prompted the mod tg to clear the banlist.

If there is a p/word in effect,there is no reason to leave a nation on the banlist.

I would like to see mod clarification on this but I believe there are two ways to stay legal here:

First,clear the banlist.

A: If you p/word the region,immediately unban any nation you eject.
B: If you don't use a p/word,you should be able to eject any and all non
natives and leave them on the banlist.

DC&H

posted the draft rules, sorry, real rules here: http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=301703

For the record, I am not the Moderator handling this case.

Besides that, I see no rules that say you can eject non natives.
I direct you to: http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=301703
Invader Delegates may not permanently ban natives from the region. Invader Delegates must distribute any new password to all of the native nations. Invader Delegates may not mass-eject natives.
To clarify that: Non-native nations have no rights granted to them under the invasion rules. Invader Delegates may eject non-natives at will.

...we're the ones being calles stupid....
Is this by telegram or CH board post? Which nation or region?

If you want to make a rules inquiry then create your own thread, do not hijack mine. If you want to see the outcome of this thread then read, do not post.
Normally, players have the right to request a Moderator response only. This is meant to stop ordinary players who aren't involved from trying to speculate on why a particular Moderator action was taken. However, it is permitted to ask a policy question that's directly related to the matter-at-hand. You claim that your actions in "Alpha Centauri" are legal. Slewyk asked where it officially says that your actions are legal. That's a valid question to ask and does NOT constitute thread hijacking.

Yes,it is legal to eject non natives and leave them on the banlist,but not while a password is in effect.I believe that's what prompted the mod tg to clear the banlist.
Part in orange: Not correct. It is legal to eject non natives and leave them on the banlist, period.

Part in red: Do not speculate on why a particular Moderator action was taken. Wait for the Moderator who investigated this incident.

I would like to see mod clarification on this but I believe there are two ways to stay legal here:

First,clear the banlist.

A: If you p/word the region,immediately unban any nation you eject.
B: If you don't use a p/word,you should be able to eject any and all non
natives and leave them on the banlist.
A: Correct IF you distribute the password to the natives.
B: Correct.

...

Again, I am not the Moderator who handled this case; please wait for the Moderator who handled this case.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

oops sorry I quoted the draft rules. I'll edit that out.

Real rules (stated above and in the region):
http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=301703

So the way I see it now, when your region is invaded you have almost no way to get them out. The invaders have the right to eject the nations who come to an aid at will so it seems to me this is making things very easy for the invaders.

Basicly these rules allow region crashers to spoil the fun of every nation in every region. Since every non native can be ejected, the situation that no help ever can get through can be created at the cost of those in the region. So how can this be right?

Both invaders and defenders fail. It is not one sided at all, plus we invaders get all kinds of false mod reports filed on us all of the time, and then the mods don't really enjoy what we do... so you all have the mods more on your side.. but yah, it's not one sided

But one thing. Ejecting a native nation our for "getting too much endorsements". That's not according to the rules is it? Because that's what happened today and that's also one of the reasons I'm protesting against the invaders.

From the current rules:


"To avoid running afoul of the Mod Squad, Invader Delegates should limit themselves to ejecting ONLY those natives who are a direct threat to the Invader Delegate's position. Also remember that any ejected natives must be removed from the banlist instantly."

So if they are getting a lot of endorsements, they may be ejected (but must be removed from the ban list immediately).

Another rule making things easy...

Cogitation: Sorry for the thread hijack thing, I just didnt want to get into another argument with Slewyk.

Anyway, from what you're saying I did nothing wrong. I ejected two natives and they were unbanned immediately and they were a delgacy threat. The toehrs were natives. And I distributed the password. Anyway, can you take a look at that murderkill guy's TG? It's in the UNS Unity inbox.

If you don't hear back about that TG thing, I would suggest filing a getting help request.

Mods are just so overworked, they can't handle everything! OMG, is this true, or am I telling an outragous lie? I have no idea....but with a thought pattern so....erm....cloudy....I can think of many things why mods so feq.....

Wait, what the hell am I saying...why the hell am I posting this?!

Cogitation: Sorry for the thread hijack thing, I just didnt want to get into another argument with Slewyk.

Anyway, from what you're saying I did nothing wrong. I ejected two natives and they were unbanned immediately and they were a delgacy threat. The toehrs were natives. And I distributed the password. Anyway, can you take a look at that murderkill guy's TG? It's in the UNS Unity inbox.
I'm just quoting the rules in general. I'm not making or overturning any specific rulings in your case. A Moderator has ordered you to clear the banlist. My best guess is that that Moderator made the determination that you had natives on the banlist. I'm not overturning that conclusion or ruling at this time (I would need to speak to the Moderator in question), so I'm going to repeat that Mods' earlier order and instruct you to clear the banlist immediately.

As for the telegrams.... Telegram confirmed. It also seems that he has a previous standing warning for posting abusive messages on the regional board. Not more than 24 hours ago, either. iModbomb.

I also noticed this gem in your telegram box:
--NationStates--
You have 48 hours to remove yourself from this region (Alpha Centauri) before action is taken.
I don't have time to nail him right now. I'll deal with him later.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

Murderkill, you've met him on one of his nice days. It's our own little dictator with a very broad fantasy on torturing and normaly he also askes for your first borns and plays with nukes. You can feel offended but in the last couple of months I can't realy recall him being different. Nobody takes the guy serious and we probably never will. He problably is making clothes for his wife when he's not posting.

So, Nationstates has told DEM to remove itself and to clear the banlist, both of which he is refusing. How very nice.

MK is always like that. And it is extremely entertaining. He was not griefing, because it is so over the top, that it is absolutly impossible to take him seriously. In addition, MK's remarks were in response to the region being taken. If ever there was a time to be angry, that is it. Deleting MK for offensive language is like arresting a dude who got his car stolen for cursing out the guy who took it.
Not too cool.

The "he's an obnoxious bastard anyway so it's ok for him to flame" defense?

Novel, but I don't think it'll fly.

I believe --NationStates-- is a nation, and is not the game nor the moderators....

EDIT: Can't find such a nation.
1) Real game sent out a TG
2) Nation was ModBombed

Region crashers have no sympathy from me...

And we're smart enough to make sure they have no inroads (delegation of authority. UN delegate has no direct regional power).

If it was up to me, it would be a crime punishable by imediate deletion.

I believe --NationStates-- is a nation, and is not the game nor the moderators....

EDIT: Can't find such a nation.
1) Real game sent out a TG
2) Nation was ModBombed
Number 2.

"Rayers" has been deleted for using UN multipuppet "--nationstates--" to impersonate a NationStates official.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

The banlist has been cleared, although I reiterate the fact that there were no natives on it.

The "he's an obnoxious bastard anyway so it's ok for him to flame" defense?

Novel, but I don't think it'll fly.
We never heard the guy talk otherwise and we explained that multiple times. As said this guy was so over the top, no way these things can be taken up serious.

But guess we are just supposed to be mister niceguy and welcome them with open arms and shouting hail to our new leaders? Well don't think so and certainly not after all this. "we are playing by the rules" Apparantly so, but they sure can't take much criticism, see everything as a threath and starting to wonder why we don't make this raid more fun for them.

They are the ones bashing in on us so don't be surprised if nations just hate them. Live with it or stay away. Now they ruined a part of our region which can't just be restored anymore and don't think that's the basic idea of NationStates.

We never heard the guy talk otherwise and we explained that multiple times. As said this guy was so over the top, no way these things can be taken up serious.

But guess we are just supposed to be mister niceguy and welcome them with open arms and shouting hail to our new leaders? Well don't think so and certainly not after all this. "we are playing by the rules" Apparantly so, but they sure can't take much criticism, see everything as a threath and starting to wonder why we don't make this raid more fun for them.

They are the ones bashing in on us so don't be surprised if nations just hate them. Live with it or stay away. Now they ruined a part of our region which can't just be restored anymore and don't think that's the basic idea of NationStates.

It's a given, they come on here as billy bad-asses, because IRL they are 90 pounds ,soaking-wet, wimps who have their lunch money stollen on a daily basis.

Well I got kicked from ALpha Centauri in the chaos, i have no idea what happened and i think DEN should stfu

''The "he's an obnoxious bastard anyway so it's ok for him to flame" defense?

Novel, but I don't think it'll fly. ''

except its true. DEN = gay

To be honest, crashers should have no protection under the rules... To be even more completely honest, I don't know why the rules even allow their incorporation...

To be honest, crashers should have no protection under the rules... To be even more completely honest, I don't know why the rules even allow their incorporation...

Because, it's part of the game.

Also,

* Just to go slightly off topic for a moment, ;)

Call me being a little cynical, but there could be a little more to it ... while invading was never a planned part of the game, while rules about it only developed as invading developed, while not many people, including game staff, according to some, like invading at all ...

It draws and / or keeps people playing the game. And the longer they are here, or the more that come, the more people who may be exposed to the Jennifer Government / Max Barry lculture and links.

After all, this site / game / concept is just one big advertisement you must remember, and you don't take the poster down, reduce the wall space, then put up a smaller poster with less colour and drawing power in it if your trying to market something, usually ...

;)

Part of the game but why making it that easy for them?

1. They can kick out anyone who's getting "too much" endorsements.
2. They can kick out non natives who come to an aid.
3. They can password protect the region and therefor slow down aid.

So where are the rules making it easier for regions to kick them out? They're the ones setting their alarm clocks at 6am so they can kick out any arrived help before endorsements get verified. Well that's not playing the game in a fun way anymore the way I see it, it's just making a job out if it.

That it's part of the game I can live with but why are all those rules in their advantage since it's not the main goal to invade regions?

hey! I take offence to the 90 pound comment! I'm 95 pounds!

but really, if you look, you will see invaders lose about half the time, and defenders lose about half the time. Invading/defending keeps people in the game, so many would leave it invading were outlawed. Defenders would have nothing to do, and though some might not admit it, they need us invaders in the game.

oh and no, I'm nowhere near 90 pounds, and I work from 2 am to 8 am, then on the side I'm a freelance web designer. In my past, I never once had my "lunch money" stolen. I'm in college now. You shouldn't stereotype invaders.

hey! I take offence to the 90 pound comment! I'm 95 pounds!

but really, if you look, you will see invaders lose about half the time, and defenders lose about half the time. Invading/defending keeps people in the game, so many would leave it invading were outlawed. Defenders would have nothing to do, and though some might not admit it, they need us invaders in the game.

oh and no, I'm nowhere near 90 pounds, and I work from 2 am to 8 am, then on the side I'm a freelance web designer. In my past, I never once had my "lunch money" stolen. I'm in college now. You shouldn't stereotype invaders.

Ah, not saying it won't, or that things change; just that invaders are lucky I'm not the "Game Organizational Director" 'round these parts ;)

"Invading/defending keeps people in the game"

What are you tlaking about? If you're like Mishappi, and get kicked out for trying to defend yourself, you get kicked and banned out of the game. We were a happy nation, with jokes and some politics. Murderkill was always funny as he wasn't serious. Then a bunch of cockeys, i.e. you, come along and start pretending they are super. BTW, i thought making multiple accounts was against the rules, as I doubt you have that many friends to endorse someone new.

Making multiple UN accounts is against the rules. We are all seperate people that share an enthusiasm for raiding. And regarding the guy that got deleted. He broke the rules, he deserved to be deleted.

and an edit: by that comment, I mean that those who like to invade and defend would most likely not play the game anymore if it were outlawed

Murderkill was in OUR region and the way I see it the folks from The DEN are nothing else as unwanted guests. We're not offended by Murderkill and that's the reason he was around. Besides that The DEN gets offended very very easely and see almost everything as an insult.

We are practically taken away the right to protest against them in a normal way since they feel offended or insulted, whatever you want to call it. We face ejection because we act like troublemakers? What can we say then? Welcome all mighty DEN, We are licking your toes, are they clean enough? No. We don't like them and we sure are letting them know and we have every right to do so as long as now harm is wished upon them.

They are not wanted, well, they sure will know it. (and yes, this is seen almost as offending)

Raiding is inherantly offensive... The fact that a native can be deleted for "offending" a raider, is nothing less than hypocracy.

Apparently the DEN are not new to this raiding lark. They apparentlly take down three regions a week or something.

To quote their 'General'

"DEN troopers, I'd just like to pass on my congratulations to you all for the excellent raiding that's been going on over the last month or two.

There can be no doubt about it, The DEN is the most feared and most visible raider region in NationStates. Each of you should be particularly happy about this and we've gained this notoriety because we work well together, we're flexible and we hit regions hard using maximum stealth, good timing and great communication between all troopers. When things do go against us, rather than grumbling, we change approach and figure out ways to win, and win we do.

The success has been astounding and a particular credit to you all. On average we're winning three regions a week and are leaving the defenders for dead. The quality of raiding has been of such a high standard that we don't even consider the defenders any sort of threat anymore. We know that if we stick to our tried and tested methods, communicate well with one another, scout out the target regions, find a good route into the target and are patient, that even when the odds are stacked against us, we'll find a way to win.

We're outnumbered by more that 20-1 by defenders and they can still hurt us if we become inflexible and get entrenched in positions. Choosing the battlefield and the timing has always been important in The DEN, and we keep moving, using stealth and surprise as our most deadly weapons, solidifing our power by attacking within the rules. This makes us very hard to beat. As you know, defenders no longer take delegacies from us, they "liberate" the region long after we are gone. As I mentioned before, they are reduced to flaming and writing factbooks when we've left the region and contacting the moderators with fabricated reports about our rulebreaking.

The DEN has troopers from all over the world and we've got a presence on MSN 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I urge you to keep communicating with your fellow troopers and to introduce other troopers into your network on MSN. This speeds up the transfer of live intel on the various regions that we are attacking, makes The DEN a more fun place to be and helps us learn about opportunities and new ways to trick the natives and any defenders who may be watching the target regions.

Once again troopers, congratulations to you all!

Long live The DEN!"

They will pay.


EDIT: I bolded elements I found particularly revealing or offensive. This 'Oh they insulted us' is a tactic of theirs. Acting like saddos who play war. Wankers

Mishappi, I am not involved in this at all. But I suggest you lower your tone and curses a couple of notches. If you insult someone you can easily get a modwarning and that with all rights.

You have to understand that we didnt do anything. I don't want my account deleted or banned, but it was so unnecessary. They accomplished nothing, it's not a war, it's a game. It's not even a wargame.

I understand. But because you don't like it gives you no reason to brake the rules by flaming or flamebaiting others. Don't force the mods to bomb the "inocents" because the "inocents" have turned into rulebrakers. Debate or just say your meaning about the invasion if you wish, but calm your words.

This was my last post on the subject. I am sorry for hijacking the topic for two posts. If any mod seems it fit its open for deletion of my posts here as they don't add anything to the real topic at hand.

So DEN kicked another person last night. They said they sent the pass to all remaining nations. Liar.

what, you don't have the password?

I got it now. Forget that.

Number 2.

"Rayers" has been deleted for using UN multipuppet "--nationstates--" to impersonate a NationStates official.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator
Just an update on this bit: "Rayers" and "--NationStates--" were playing from an educational IP, so they may not be the same person. "Rayers" has been resurrected.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

DEN are out! thanks to TITO, Grevalin (sorry if names wrong), and ADN. Those defender organisations are awesome