NationStates Jolt Archive

My main nation "The Acutely Obtuse" in The West Pacific was recently deleted. I asked for moderator clarification via TG and I received a TG stating the nation was "deleted for multiple rules violations, and will not be returned."

I am not sure what those rule violations were/are. Would it be possible for me to receive some more explanation and then given an opportunity to respond with the possibility of having that nation ressurected?

Either here or by email would be fine.

Thank you.

Used a griefing puppet, "delegate_haters"; spammed 'the_west_pacific' region; and was a UN Multi.

I've known The Acutely Obtuse for a while, and this doesn't sound like his behavior at all.

I know mods aren't usually wrong but are you 100% sure that The Acutely Obtuse did this?

Used a griefing puppet, "delegate_haters"; spammed 'the_west_pacific' region; and was a UN Multi.

Hack ... I will admit delegate haters was a puppet of mine in my earliest days in the game ... and during the Norion days in TWP, dh was not nice.

The spamming incident in 'the_west_pacific' (TWP) region was an innocent attempt as a (non-delegate) regional official to clear spam from the board. I accepted that correction from the mods as a clarification of game rules and it has not happened again. The delegate, Berhampore, and I discussed more appropriate ways of how that could be done. In TWP, as Communication Minister, I wrote guidelines on what my region's CommRangers could and could not do, in terms of posting, on the regional board.

The charge of UN multi is confusing, however.

Checking back in to see if any new decision. Or clarification.

This is very odd. I've known The Acutely Obtuse for quite some time now and I find it hard to believe that he would have UN multi's. Are the mods absolutely sure about this?

The evidence is pretty convincing. Decision stands.

I have to say I'm very surprised by this.

Since I know none of the details I can't question the moderation decision, all I can do agree with the others that posted here: This doesn't seem in character.

I've found TAO to be an enthusiastic player. He did consult with me about posting guidelines, as he mentioned. I don't believe we've had any trouble since those guidelines went into effect.

Its hard not to turn this post into a question, or to add constructively to the facts TAO has given. So I'll just stop and say I would like to see The Acutely Obtuse resurrected, he's a good player and if he made mistakes in the past he has certainly transcended them.

I can do nothing further than add my voice as a TWP Councillor to those who've already posted here in support of TAO.

CC

Most likely he was tagged with bad logon attempts, which the mods can't distinguish (though which security can be pretty easily be adapted to). All I can say, is that on NS2, they better work on their policy, or they're likely to see Max flipping burgers after being hounded through several bankruptsies...(and no, that was not a threat... It was an analization of potential problems with the present system, if it were applied to a payed service).
If anything, the security employed by the site code, is sketchy to say the least, and definitely could stand some improvement; merely in lieu of deletions the present system cannot descern the error with. (Like a cross-section of associated DNS TXT records from associated IPs)

UN Multi's would be less of an issue on a pay-to-play site. Especially if you had to pay for each nation you control.

UN Multi's would be less of an issue on a pay-to-play site. Especially if you had to pay for each nation you control.

I could agree with paying for each nation, as long as that only counts for UN members. Who needs a UN membership anyway :p
When I have to pay for every puppet, that better be in cents. ;)

Btw, I also believe TAO is innocent of multying, but than again; I believe that of everybody untill proven otherwise. He told me me that he was playing this game together with some pupils.

I'm certain that TAO is not a multi. I recognize the names of the nations as his students nations. I also wish to voice my support, and should a mod wish to contact me to know more, I would be glad to answer.

Dilber

I myself find it hard to believe TAO would have UN multis as it would serve him no advantage aside from the risk of being deleted.

I respectfully disagree with the mod decision.

What did the UN nations that were identified as him actually do?

I would like to add my voice to those calling for a revisit of the decision to delete TAO. I have known him as an excellent player and not one who would multi. I think this is a situation where he and his students got judged based on circumstances that are more than they seem. Two of the nations that have been tied to him belong to students here in GA. I know this because I helped design the flag for one of them.

I would also like to add my little voice in support of TAO who is an upstanding person and who strikes me as someone who would work against multis instead of being one himself, he has a lot of nations I know that but I the only one I knew of that was UN was The Acutely Obtuse.

I wish to add my voice to the chorus. TAO is a high school math teacher who has brought many of his students to the game. Surely, it was one of these accounts that appeared as a multi.

And even if he were guilty of multi'ing, I thought the penalty for that was merely ejection of involved nations from the UN, not deletion?

Be well,
Lake Lanier

I do not know what has happened prior to my joining the NationStates.

I had first visited regions devoted to "stealing endorsements" from UN diplomats through elaborate region jumping plans.

I then found TWP none of the was happening and it was not promoted, so I joined.

What I do know is as a new nation TAO paid attention to my nation. Through his guidence I developed a nation with respect. He never promoted action contrary to that of a respectful nation.

I believe the decision to delete TAO was rash and contrary to the example, I believe, NationState wants to encourage.

Please reconsider,

I.M. Gloom
The Rogue Nation Of Gloom Of Doom

I'll just voice my opinion after seeing all this support..It won't matter to much consider the Mod word is law and what they say goes pretty much no matter what.

Do any of you know this TAO in person? If not, then you don't really know him too well. If multiple moderators confirmed this, then obviously, the decision wasn't rash, and this is what he deserved.

(Not to say he wasn't a good person...just stating the facts)

The mods aren't likely to change their position.

I have spoken to the students before, and know them to be seperate people from TAO.

I know that certain people who have posted have spoken with him over the phone as well.

Dilber

Do any of you know this TAO in person? If not, then you don't really know him too well. If multiple moderators confirmed this, then obviously, the decision wasn't rash, and this is what he deserved.

(Not to say he wasn't a good person...just stating the facts)

The mods aren't likely to change their position.

Although as much as I would like to see TAO revitalised, Euroslavia is right, Karma' has already stated that the decision stands.

Keep in mind I first posted before a second moderator confirmed it all ;)

Well this is the reply I got after complaining about a Nazi nation flying the swastika with the motto saying Kill the Jews. Absolute load of rubbish as I am the only one on my computer!

NationStates Moderators
Received: 2 hours ago "Hitler in germany" has been warned for the flag and motto. Be advised, though, that he's operating from the same computer as you (or that you and he shared a computer at some point). Normally, you would be warned for breaking the rules with a puppet nation ("Hitler in germany"), but I'm going to grant you benefit-of-the-doubt in this case. Don't share computers with rulebreakers or you could get accidentally connected to the rulebreaker and punished for what the rulebreaker did; we cannot see who is using a particular computer, and we must assume that one computer means one person.

we cannot see who is using a particular computer, and we must assume that one computer means one person.

Which is why using computers on a server, school computers, library etc that have same ip address is a bad idea....and which is why your nations can get in trouble and the mods cant do a thing about it because they cant verify only you can.

Couldn't student e-mails from school addresses be used as confirmation in such a case? Obviously it's not a good idea for school computers to be used for NationStates, but if student e-mails were used (something along the lines of mp***50@malvern-prep.pvt.k12.pa.us), that would IMO be fairly verifiable evidence.

Couldn't student e-mails from school addresses be used as confirmation in such a case? Obviously it's not a good idea for school computers to be used for NationStates, but if student e-mails were used (something along the lines of mp***50@malvern-prep.pvt.k12.pa.us), that would IMO be fairly verifiable evidence.

There are actually quite a few things that would be fairly effective (and I doubt they are implimented within the code or procedures, given the relatively limited code sources of the game)... My opinion is Max should seek out more development, or cooperation in code development for the game (especially in the security department)... Even I have hackers who are either payrolled or volunteer; whose soul duty is to attempt to crack my security, and/or recommend areas of improvement.... I would definitely like to see the code base, flow-chart, or at least the list of implimented procedures, to see if there are things they have not been thought of, that could improve security, and/or limit error.

Do any of you know this TAO in person? If not, then you don't really know him too well. If multiple moderators confirmed this, then obviously, the decision wasn't rash, and this is what he deserved.

(Not to say he wasn't a good person...just stating the facts)

The mods aren't likely to change their position.

Ask and you shall receive: I have spoken with him numerous times by phone. He doesn't deserve this.

Mods have to do what the Mods have to do. I mean, how could they of known? You know? You MUST give the Mods a chance when it comes to these things. Afterall, even they give information as to why a deletion took place, so its not like a conspiracy or anything.

Frankley, none of you are in a position to comment on our security practices/procedures as you do not know what they are. All I can say is that our cheatscan came up with some very convincing evidence of UN-multiing, and it is generally very accurate. We do make exceptions in the case of schools, however, none of the ip's that came up were registered to schools directly, which means we have no way of knowing if they are schools or not. Unfortunaltey, this is a limitiation of the way the internet works, and in this case we must apply the rules the same way we always do in this case. It is stated in several places that more than one UN nation being accessed from the same computer can lead to showing up in our cheatscan. Therefore, we cannot respond in anyway but to uphold our past precedent.

Put yourself in our shoes, how many times a day do you think we hear arguments like this? Granted, I am sure some of them are true, but in the lack of proof, we don't have much of a choice. The last thing we want to do is boot a legitamate player from the UN, and that is why the warnings exist. If someone chooses not to follow them, well, you can see what happens. So, as before, if he is a legitamate player, I appologize, but the decision stands.

I would like to kow how 'historically aware' these mods are. Have they heard of Hitler and the Nazis? The concentration camps and the rest? Because they seem blistfully unaware of these hateful people and let them on the HQ messageboards, while lesser 'evil' nations are deleted for breaking rules they had no idea they had broken!
see thread "request for an open dialog"(sp?)
nation deated for atempting to follow rules

To sum-up, what the mods have said is that a miscarriage of justice well may have happened, but hard luck!

User Tweeds Back has been banned permanently




Ooops, my finger slipped.

I'm not questioning the mods, I'm questioning whether the tools the mods have at their disposal in lieu of the code is really up to par... the mods can only work with the tools provided them...

It's obviously recognized that the "CheatScan" is capable of error, by the language imposed in relation to it... And if it is Capable of Error... it is obviously not good enough...

I understand the ruling. It does seem to be consistent with previous ones. It's disappointing, but there are people everyday who come in here and insist that they are telling the truth and they may or may not be.

I only hope that Tao doesn't walk away from the game. I consider him a good friend around these parts! :p

Yes, it's my web-security side speaking here... ERROR!!! NO!!! MUST FIX!!!!

I'm not questioning the mods, I'm questioning whether the tools the mods have at their disposal in lieu of the code is really up to par... the mods can only work with the tools provided them...

It's obviously recognized that the "CheatScan" is capable of error, by the language imposed in relation to it... And if it is Capable of Error... it is obviously not good enough...

As I said before, and as Karma has just posted, let it go ;)

Perhaps a lock on this thread?

I'm not questioning the mods, I'm questioning whether the tools the mods have at their disposal in lieu of the code is really up to par... the mods can only work with the tools provided them...

It's obviously recognized that the "CheatScan" is capable of error, by the language imposed in relation to it... And if it is Capable of Error... it is obviously not good enough...


I can't go into how it works, but suffice to say, the only problem with it is a physical limitation of the network structure of the internet itself. It is as good as it can be considering we can't see through your monitor to verify who you are.

As I said before, and as Karma has just posted, let it go ;)

Questions on policy are allowed, regardless of whether or not a ruling has been made...

I'm not questioning the mods, I'm questioning whether the tools the mods have at their disposal in lieu of the code is really up to par... the mods can only work with the tools provided them...

It's obviously recognized that the "CheatScan" is capable of error, by the language imposed in relation to it... And if it is Capable of Error... it is obviously not good enough...

If you think that you have suggestions on how to do this, feel free to e-mail me with it.

salusa@nationstates.net