NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello, the region of Ukraine was griefed last night. I shall make this simple and easy, no matter how you look at it they broke the 20% ejection rule and maybe just plan mass griefing.
Nations ejected:
Finhash *USSR soldier, non-native*
Al-Kair *USSR soldier, non-native*
Moscovy *USSR soldier, non-native*
Nurse Diesel *citizen, non-native*
Socialist Europe *USSR soldier, non-native*
The Demonic Monkeys *citizen, sort-of-native, moved to live in the region a few hours before invasion and was recruited by Moscovy from a pacific.*
Moscovy Ambassadors *USSR soldier, non-native*
Jandorian Colonies *citizen, native*
USSR Diplomats *USSR diplomat, native, there 3 weeks before last night; as such it was not apart of the invading army since it was a diplomat used between the natives and the USSR.*
Livithany *citizen, sort-of-native*
Guards of Kiev *citizen, native, recruited by Moscovy and entered the day before the invasion*
3 Natives kicked, out of 7 people before we came. and then another 2 nations who came before the invasion that had nothing to do with our military or anything. That is over 20% of natives kicked. If that isn't enough he ejected all USSR soldiers and invading soldiers + the citizens were ejected last night. That total comes to about 15 people in which 11 were non-harmful and either helping the region or trying to live there.

*edited, found out two more citizens and non-USSR related nations were kicked*

Observed:

Regional Happenings
* 4 hours ago: The Judge Jury and Executioners of McCarthy Witch Hunts departed this region for The Rejected Realms
* 4 hours ago: The Republic of I forget where ejected The Judge Jury and Executioners of McCarthy Witch Hunts from the region.
* 4 hours ago: The Dictatorship of Kuzya departed this region for The Rejected Realms
* 4 hours ago: The Republic of I forget where ejected The Dictatorship of Kuzya from the region.
* 4 hours ago: The invader-kicking defenders of Zandra arrived from The Rejected Realms.
* 6 hours ago: The Holy Empire of Ancient Byzantium departed this region for The North Pacific
* 6 hours ago: The Holy Empire of Ancient Byzantium arrived from Albania.
* 6 hours ago: The Dictatorship of Kuzya arrived from The West Pacific.
* 8 hours ago: The Judge Jury and Executioners of McCarthy Witch Hunts arrived from USSR.
* 17 hours ago: The Republic of I forget where updated the World Factbook entry.

Ukraine Civil Headquarters
3 days ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
Announcment from the Governor General of the Ukraine:

Well ladies and gentlemen, this is my first announcement. As of now, the USSR is reasserting its control over the Ukraine. For too long we have let this region grow fallow. It is time to plant the seeds of progress for this region. Enough with the cliché metaphores. I am undertaking a large task in constructing a new government for the Ukraine. This means I want you, the natives to get involved for the benefit of your region and too make it active and great. This includes a few things:

Although our foreign policy lays within the confines of the USSR, we can still give the Ukraine its own culture seperate from the USSR. The last thing I want to make the Ukraine into is some dormant sattelite region not worthy of the title puppet. I suggest using the Cossack routes of many Ukrainians and the glory days of Kievan Rus. I myself come from Russia and am part Ukrainian so I have some depth as to the culture of this unique land. I know the RL history and of the princes of Rurik. Exploiting this history is essential in bringing this region to life.

So in order to do this I need members for my cabinent.

1) Minister of Immigration and Foreign Affairs- you are mostly responsible for imigration. However, the realm of relations with other regions is very important

2) Minister of Culture- You help develope a regional culture. Want someone with a knowledge of Ukrainian culture.

3) Ministry of Regional Security- You notify me of any regional threats. You have the resources of the USSR military and KGB at your disposal.

These positions are open to anyone within the Ukraine and the USSR

3 days ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
After I read through my annoucment I see that I have spelling mistakes and some gramatical errors in there, sue me!

3 days ago
The Socialist Military State of Isles of Wohlstand
I applied for a position, Moskovy. Look at the USSR forums. Also, look at my rank in the region for the most citizens in the government. Goes to show that indeed, my country is quite fair.

1 day ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
anybody interested?

1 day ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
Socialist Europe is now your Imigration of Foreign Affairs Minister.

22 hours ago
The People's Federation of Al-Kair
'lo everyone. How many other regions does the USSR have?

21 hours ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
For the most part, the Ukraine is her own region. We just enjoy the protection of the USSR. So we are more like a protectorate. As for other regions the USSR has: Moscow and both South and North Korea.

8 hours ago
The Judge Jury and Executioners of McCarthy Witch Hunts
Hmm, how curious.

6 hours ago
The Dictatorship of Kuzya
weee here im sweet motherland

4 hours ago
The invader-kicking defenders of Zandra
Bye Bye Invaders :)

<NATIONS>der_graal:southern_ukaine:cayyricata:kievan_nights:
ciscarpathia:meidosem:grath_of_unholy_terror</NATIONS>

Finhash *USSR soldier, non-native*
Not a native, therefore I believe a legal ejection.
Al-Kair *USSR soldier, non-native*
Not a native, therefore I believe a legal ejection.
Moscovy *USSR soldier, non-native*
Not a native, therefore I believe a legal ejection.
Nurse Diesel *citizen, non-native*
Was one of my endorsers and wasn't even ejected. :confused:
Socialist Europe *USSR soldier, non-native*
Not a native, therefore I believe a legal ejection.
The Demonic Monkeys *citizen, sort-of-native, moved to live in the region a few hours before invasion and was recruited by Moscovy from a pacific.*
Not a native, therefore I believe a legal ejection.
Moscovy Ambassadors *USSR soldier, non-native*
Not a native, therefore I believe a legal ejection.
Jandorian Colonies *citizen, native*
This nation's nativity is questionable at best.
USSR Diplomats *USSR diplomat, native, there 3 weeks before last night; as such it was not apart of the invading army since it was a diplomat used between the natives and the USSR.*
Strange, they don't appear on an XML from two weeks before.
Livithany *citizen, sort-of-native*
Sort of?
Guards of Kiev *citizen, native, recruited by Moscovy and entered the day before the invasion*
Not a native, therefore I believe a legal ejection.
3 Natives kicked, out of 7 people before we came. and then another 2 nations who came before the invasion that had nothing to do with our military or anything.
I ejected anyone who had anything to do with the USSR. The nations you are claiming to be natives were in actuality puppet nations of USSR soldiers.
That is over 20% of natives kicked. If that isn't enough he ejected all USSR soldiers and invading soldiers + the citizens were ejected last night. That total comes to about 15 people in which 11 were non-harmful and either helping the region or trying to live there.
Everything I did was legitimate and within the rules, in my opinion.

Let me get this straight...Moscovy, of the USSR, recruited nations to come to the Ukraine a few hours or mere days before the USSR invasion, and you think that makes them natives? A nation bearing the name of the invading force moved to the region two weeks prior to the invasion and this puppet is to be considered a native?

Erm...I don't think so. A griefing is a serious accusation, and the fact that these nations were placed in Ukraine in relatively small time before the planned invasion seems rather strange.

False griefing reports? Just to get an ingame enemy?
This is interesting...

False griefing reports? Just to get an ingame enemy?
This is interesting...

There's also the possibility RedCommunist just doesn't know what is or isn't a native. I think it's a tad hasty to presume willingly and knowingly filing a false report.

Ballotonia

*shrugs*

it's also hasty to call it a griefing if you don't know what the natives are, it's better to say possible griefing, or just ask if it is a griefing if you're not sure, and to say the delegate is possibly planning a mass-griefing... :rolleyes:

and it was his region that invaded in the first place, i believe and then also seeing how long he's been in the game...thought he'd know this wasn't a griefing..

and then his post...he claims the delegate kicked out Nurse Diesel, while he didn't, it was one of his own endorsers even..

edit:

the banlist of ukraine:

A Semi-Banana Republic
Al-Kair
Alakbar
Arcar
Finhash
Guards of Kiev
Jandorian Colonies
Korenyl
Kuzya
Livithany
McCarthy Witch Hunts
Moscovy
Moscovy Ambassadors
Ndosheni
SocialistEurope
The Demonic Monkeys
USSR Diplomats

My only concern is whether the Ukraine requested outside assistance in the first place. The point is that I am under the impression that the Ukraine peacefully was annexed to the USSR. Thus, if the natives were in some kind of consensus with the USSR, I would presume that the actions of these defenders would be wrong. Let me point out that I have not spoken to any of the natives, so I don't know the whole story. I guess it just becomes easier to know their side of the story before we know whether there indeed was a griefing.

Also, has there ever been a ruling regarding the definition of a native? I'm pretty sure that a native needs to be residing in a region for a given length of time, presumably with the actions of taking up long-term residence. I'm just curious as I seem to recall this came up once before yet I don't remember if there was ever a ruling.

Yes, it has been brought up quite a bit. The definition I remember seeing was that a native must be active in the region in question for quite some time, or the nation must not be a puppet of someone with other interests in the region (i.e. an invader/defender "plant"). It is often hard to determine, but in this case, given the clear-cut time period of nation arrivals, it seems obvious who the natives are and who was not a native when ejected.

The other thing is...regional politicking does not affect the rules of invading and defending. The groups involved here did not include the ADN, so I cannot tell you whether or not they were asked for help by the natives of the region. I can tell you that in my experience, it wouldn't matter anyway. As long as the invasion or defense was done legally, no matter who told whom it was okay to do what in gameplay politics, the invaders or defenders appear to have followed the game rules.

I am not a Mod but from what I have read I believe that any nation residing in the region prior to an invasion is considered a native.

As to this particular incident. If the natives of Ukraine approached USSR and asked for assistance in region building how is it that the RRA (and this is an assumption by me only because I see that Zandra took place in the activity) feels they should move in and "defend" the region? From a certain viewpoint, the USSR nations were part of a region building support group and not partaking in an invasion of the region. Therefore, the only invasion came from the movement of the RRA nations into the region and the subsequent ejections. In this viewpoint then even those nations that moved in from the USSR under peaceful conditions could be looked at as "native" in comparison to the RRA nations.

I would like to know if the USSR nations, when they "took over" a couple of days ago, ejected any nations? If not, why not? Isn't that customary in an invasion? To get rid of possible future threats? If this did not occur and the natives were not contacted before the RRA moved in, who is this anything but an RRA invasion of the region Ukraine?

Observed:

Ukraine

World Factbook Entry: Uartige kommunister, i skulle lade denne fine region i fred. Denne region blev forsvaret af nogle mennesker med underlige hatte.

UN Delegate: The Republic of I forget where (elected 1 day ago).

Founder: Ukrainian ssr

Ukraine contains 7 nations. [List all nations]

Like what you see? Move Goobergunchia to Ukraine today!

Today's United Nations Report
The Largest Publishing Industry in Ukraine

# Nation UN Category Motto
1. The Republic of Southern Ukaine Capitalizt "Live free or dye your hair!"
2. The Free Gayland of Cayyricata Inoffensive Centrist Democracy "{P}"
3. The Oppressed Peoples of Grath of Unholy Terror Corporate Police State "Fear me"
4. The Dictatorship of Kievan Nights Psychotic Dictatorship "Dig til you glow in the dark"
5. The Republic of I forget where [UN] Corporate Police State "Catch as catch can"
6. The Holy Orthodox Kingdom of Der Graal Corrupt Dictatorship "GRAAL ! ! !"
7. The invader-kicking defenders of Zandra [UN] Democratic Socialists "Defender of all"

Regional Happenings

* 13 hours ago: The Republic of Arcar departed this region for The Rejected Realms
* 13 hours ago: The Republic of I forget where ejected The Republic of Arcar from the region.
* 13 hours ago: The Republic of Arcar arrived from Warzone Europe.
* 1 day ago: The Judge Jury and Executioners of McCarthy Witch Hunts departed this region for The Rejected Realms
* 1 day ago: The Republic of I forget where ejected The Judge Jury and Executioners of McCarthy Witch Hunts from the region.
* 1 day ago: The Dictatorship of Kuzya departed this region for The Rejected Realms
* 1 day ago: The Republic of I forget where ejected The Dictatorship of Kuzya from the region.
* 1 day ago: The invader-kicking defenders of Zandra arrived from The Rejected Realms.
* 1 day ago: The Holy Empire of Ancient Byzantium departed this region for The North Pacific
* 1 day ago: The Holy Empire of Ancient Byzantium arrived from Albania.

Ukraine Civil Headquarters

Messages from regional members are co-ordinated here.

4 days ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
Announcment from the Governor General of the Ukraine:

Well ladies and gentlemen, this is my first announcement. As of now, the USSR is reasserting its control over the Ukraine. For too long we have let this region grow fallow. It is time to plant the seeds of progress for this region. Enough with the cliché metaphores. I am undertaking a large task in constructing a new government for the Ukraine. This means I want you, the natives to get involved for the benefit of your region and too make it active and great. This includes a few things:

Although our foreign policy lays within the confines of the USSR, we can still give the Ukraine its own culture seperate from the USSR. The last thing I want to make the Ukraine into is some dormant sattelite region not worthy of the title puppet. I suggest using the Cossack routes of many Ukrainians and the glory days of Kievan Rus. I myself come from Russia and am part Ukrainian so I have some depth as to the culture of this unique land. I know the RL history and of the princes of Rurik. Exploiting this history is essential in bringing this region to life.

So in order to do this I need members for my cabinent.

1) Minister of Immigration and Foreign Affairs- you are mostly responsible for imigration. However, the realm of relations with other regions is very important

2) Minister of Culture- You help develope a regional culture. Want someone with a knowledge of Ukrainian culture.

3) Ministry of Regional Security- You notify me of any regional threats. You have the resources of the USSR military and KGB at your disposal.

These positions are open to anyone within the Ukraine and the USSR
4 days ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
After I read through my annoucment I see that I have spelling mistakes and some gramatical errors in there, sue me!
3 days ago
The Socialist Military State of Isles of Wohlstand
I applied for a position, Moskovy. Look at the USSR forums. Also, look at my rank in the region for the most citizens in the government. Goes to show that indeed, my country is quite fair.
2 days ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
anybody interested?
1 day ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
Socialist Europe is now your Imigration of Foreign Affairs Minister.
1 day ago
The People's Federation of Al-Kair
'lo everyone. How many other regions does the USSR have?
1 day ago
The Imperial Federation of Moscovy
For the most part, the Ukraine is her own region. We just enjoy the protection of the USSR. So we are more like a protectorate. As for other regions the USSR has: Moscow and both South and North Korea.
1 day ago
The Judge Jury and Executioners of McCarthy Witch Hunts
Hmm, how curious.
1 day ago
The Dictatorship of Kuzya
weee here im sweet motherland
1 day ago
The invader-kicking defenders of Zandra
Bye Bye Invaders :)

yes of course, i'm there, and that makes it an RRA mission :rolleyes:

you people should tell your spies to do their jobs, i'm more than just rra and adn :p

also, i moved in after the current delegate was made delegate and kicked the invaders ;)

I have no spies in the RRA or ADN as I am not interested in your internal affairs. I wish I could say the same about those groups your are a part of.

Anyway, your movement does not answer my question. It also states very clearly that I forgot where ejected nationsd from the region. Seems to me he/she is the only invader lead.

oh, technically, he is an invader, sure, as mods call both defenders and invaders invaders, if i remember right.
and this invader kicked other invaders. pretty how that all works, no? :D

I am not a Mod but from what I have read I believe that any nation residing in the region prior to an invasion is considered a native.

That is simply not true. I know of many cases where previously planted puppets from outside of the region were legally ejected. A native is generally considered someone who has established their place in a region and participates actively, not the puppet nation of someone who later decides they want to take over the region. Especially if the time span is only the above noted "two-three weeks," "a few hours," or "a couple of days."

As for the intention of the USSR nations or the defending troops, it does not matter in this forum. Regional politics do not come into moderation decisions, unless a region or group was planning a griefing ahead of time and proof can be produced as evidence of such clandestine and intentional rule breaking.

By long-established precedent, puppets are not natives of a region unless they clearly demonstrate citizenship in that region. For instance, "Goobergunchia II" would probably be considered a native of Nasicournia, while my secret Pacific puppet would probably not be considered a native of the Pacific.

The most recent re-iteration of this ruling I could find was in NationStates vs. Free Oasis (Oklahoma) (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7112666&postcount=20), when Cogitation stated as follows:
Also, nativity is a property of nations.

I should probably elaborate. Nativity is a property of nations, so if someone maintains two or more serious puppets as permanent or long-term residents of two or more different regions, then each puppet is a native of its respective region. So, a puppet can still be a native. It's not necessarily the case, but it's possible.

By implication, this notes that most puppets are not natives of regions.

Assuming the banlist posted by Crazy girl and the XML feed posted by I forget where are correct, no nations banned by the Delegate last night had resided in the region for over 18 days, meaning that no obvious natives were banned.

RedCommunist alleges that "Jandorian Colonies", "USSR Diplomats", and "Guards of Kiev" were natives unlawfully banned. However, "USSR Diplomats" is an acknowledged embassy nation. In my opinion, an embassy is fundamentally a non-native of the region in which it resides - I would not consider "DU Ambassadors" a native of Urbanites, even though it has resided there for months. "Guards of Kiev" entered the region the day prior to the invasion, making its nativity dubious at best, especially as it was recruited by the region USSR.

The only serious question of nativity that I see raised by RedCommunist is that of "Jandorian Colonies" - if this nation is not a native as claimed by I forget where, then I am confused why the following has occured:

Ukraine

World Factbook Entry: Banlist and griefer cleared.

UN Delegate: None.

Founder: Ukrainian ssr

----SNIP----

# 97 minutes ago: The Republic of I forget where ceased to exist.
# 97 minutes ago: I forget where was ejected from the UN for rule violations.

Based on the ejection from the UN for rules violation statement I would guess that it was a multi. That is purely speculation though.

As to your statement it would appear that a Mod(s) disagree with your assessment of the situation.

Based on the ejection from the UN for rules violation statement I would guess that it was a multi. That is purely speculation though.

Most of the time when a UN nation is DEAT (in my experience, anyway), it gets ejected from the UN first, regardless of offense - I'm guessing that there is some moddy procedure here that I don't really understand.

As to your statement it would appear that a Mod(s) disagree with your assessment of the situation.

Aye, exactly - that's why I posted it; hopefully a Game Mod will come along soon and explain the fallacies in my statement.

Based on the ejection from the UN for rules violation statement I would guess that it was a multi. That is purely speculation though.

As to your statement it would appear that a Mod(s) disagree with your assessment of the situation.
no when you get deat by mod the system auto ejects you from un for rules violation

Ah, thanks for that. I was unaware.

I'm interested in hearing the reasoning for the punishment of "I forget where". Understanding what rule was broken (in particular: when someone is native or isn't) is IMHO fundamental to making sure one doesn't break rules in the future.

Ballotonia

I am not the Mod who originally handled this.

"i_forget_where" has been restored and the UN ban lifted. Further review makes this a dubious claim of griefing at best.

I would like to reiterate that there is no hard rule on how many nations may be ejected in an invasion. There is a rule of thumb, but that is 40%, no the 20% claimed in the first post of this thread.

No further actions will be taken, as it's too difficult to tell if this report was filed in honest ignorance of the rules, or as an attempt to make the Mods deleted rivals. It should be noted, however, that we do not take kindly to being used for political purposes.

I was always told it ws 20% from mods or 10 nations. As well to go by Replod's definition of a native.

Sure you weren't reading the proposed invasion rules?

Mayby it could be wise to get a definite set of rules? Seems we all read on different topics all the time and things get a bit muddled and messy. :)

I agree. It seems this problem cycles once a month at least.

We don't like to set quantitative rules on things, because we'll just have too many people treading the line, finding loopholes and pushing the limits as best they can.
The best advice is 'Play Nice.' If you think something is going to seriously irritate another player, it's best not to do it. If you've managed to take a region of 70 nations, and you eject 30 of them, you're going to have a lot of annoyed people demanding to be let back in.
The real hard rules we have are mainly about password distribution and no natives on the ban list.

Sorry for bumping this up again, but after a chat on IRC just now, I just had some questions left.

I was talking to someone allied to Redcommie here, claiming the delegate did kick some natives, but that he didn't ban enough natives to be deleted?
Some nonsense about that one mod thought he could eject or ban 20% before getting deleted, while another said he could ban 40%?

Now I'd like to think I know the rules pretty well, but I never heard of this..
I know an invader/defender delegate can't ban any natives, and can only do some tactical bannings of natives..
But reviving someone because he didn;t ban or eject enough natives?

If you have no idea what i'm talking about, I could share the chatlog with you, although i rather not post it here in public without permission..

So now my question is: did "i forget where" ban/eject any natives or not?

This could be a translation issue.

By "didn't ban eject natives", it's ment that there weren't enough ejected for it to be classed as griefing.

ie: In a region of 100, an invader ejects 10 people (10%). He wouldn't be deleted as a griefer, because he didn't eject enough people for it to be a griefing. If he was deleted, he would be restored because he shouldn't have been deleted in the first place.

The complaint filed was pretty much a mess. The filer didn't know who was native and who wasn't, said there were people who were ejected that weren't, etc.