NationStates Jolt Archive

My region has had a close together spate of leaving natiosn to The YoungWorld. I belive somebody may be recruiting them out of my region, which I beleive is not allowed.



* 22 hours ago: The Rogue Nation of Hellsangel666 ceased to exist.
* 1 day ago: The Free Land of Elemosinarius departed this region for The YoungWorld
* 1 day ago: The Incorporated States of Corrumpo departed this region for The YoungWorld
* 1 day ago: The Commonwealth of Chai-latte departed this region for The YoungWorld
* 1 day ago: The Holy Empire of Sanctopia arrived from The North Pacific.
* 3 days ago: The Rogue Nation of Bigger land of us ceased to exist.
* 3 days ago: The Protectorate of New Hippograd departed this region for The New Meritocracy
* 5 days ago: The Commonwealth of Chai-latte arrived from The YoungWorld.
* 5 days ago: The Free Land of Elemosinarius arrived from The East Pacific.
* 5 days ago: The Omnipresent Government of Murth updated the World Factbook entry.

We have discussed this subject long time ago. The mods made no ruling. I am against it, but I couldn't get a mod ruling.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343654

If you have proof, you must present it to the moderators. Maybe they'll change their minds.

Send TG's to the people who left and ask them. Surely one of them will confess?

Anyway, nono of those people is in The YoungWorld. They have created their own region. I don't think there is faul play here.

We have discussed this subject long time ago. The mods made no ruling. I am against it, but I couldn't get a mod ruling.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343654

If you have proof, you must present it to the moderators. Maybe they'll change their minds.
I know I brought this to the attention of the other Mods and got a response back from one of them. I thought that I had then delivered that ruling. I guess not. Mea Culpa.

It is not acceptable to send recruitment telegrams to nations that are not in a feeder region. Any telegram recruitment campaigns currently being conducted in non-feeders should cease immediately.

I'm going to check with the other Mods to see if telegramming nations in "The Rejected Realms" or "Lazarus" is acceptable. In the meantime, though, I'm issuing a temporary ruling of: "No."

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

Comrade Moderator --

As I feel nobody should tell us whom to TG or not, as long as it is not insulting, discriminating or perceived as shocking, I feel this decision to be unjust and ask for you to reconsider it.

I feel this decision to be unjust, as I don't see why a Founder should have anything to say when it comes to whom to TG in you region. A founder does not own the nations residing within his region and is not their master.

I believe it is the duty of the recruiters to inform potential recruits of new better regions, more suited to their ideals than the one they are currently residing in. This decision will also hurt recruiting for smaller region and will make growth harder for these regions. Why should we not be free and TG whom we want, even if it is to advertise our cause? Why should I not be able to inform and invite a nation residing in a region not suited to his ideals to mine? Why should I not be allowed to talk to him about my region? What does the Founder have to do with this? What power does the Founder have other than to eject me? Who is he to decide what kind of TG:s should arrive in my inbox?

Please note I completely agree with you when it comes to the CV HQ recruiting, but when it comes to the personal TG inbox, I don't see why you should even intervene.

I hereby formally protest this ruling and would like for you, comrade moderators to reconsider it and hopefully come to a new solution. If you choose to refuse my protest, I'd be glad to engage in formal debate with you concerning this issue.

In Comradeship

The Red Factions
The Proletariat Coalition's Minister of the Interior

<snip>

Please note I completely agree with you when it comes to the CV HQ recruiting, but when it comes to the personal TG inbox, I don't see why you should even intervene.

<snip>

In Comradeship

The Red Factions
The Proletariat Coalition's Minister of the Interior

It is http://www.mig81.com/carinthe/images/smiles/112.gif, and dirty politics at the same time. :headbang:

I also wish to protest this ruling...should other nations not be given a chance to see what else is out there for them? Now if a nation is repeatedly sent recruitment telegrams, I can understnad how that wouldn't be allowed, but I believe we should be allowed to telegram individual nations. Take for instance, invader regions. Their main method of recruitment is through individual recruitment telegrams so that defender nations don't find out where they are located. This method of selective recruitment is what keeps the invader part of NS alive, and without that, I truly believe that the game would suffer greatly. Please reconsider this ruling, as it may end up changing the game significantly, and I do not believe it would be for the better...

Comrade Carinthe

I second what Comrade Nucleo said and I don't see why invites to join your region, if you feel it's better than the one the potential recruit is residing in and would like to see him amongst your ranks, if you truly believe he will be happier in your region, why it would be spam to invite him over.

You are infringing on our liberties by forbidding us to recruit. And I don't see why you're complaining as this can't disturb you, since this kind of recruiting is not visible on your CV HQ.

This is not dirty politics, I never TG nations from Brother Regions such as The Allied States of EuroIslanders to join us, out of pure respect and solidarity but if I see a dedicated leftist nation, residing in a capitalizt region and not having any friend, I see it as my duty to invite him to our region of likeminded individuals. If I see comrades from a dying socialist region, I see it as my duty to recruit them to mine in order to salvage them from their own inactivity and the regional failure. I don't see why advertising your cause, region and ideologies and inviting people should be considered spam when this is done in private. What infuriates me even more is the fact founders are to be asked? What do THEY have to do with what is in your inbox? What right do you have as founder to decided what TG should be in your inbox or not?

Comrade Moderators, please reconsider your ruling! And any other comrades or nations, regardless of your ideologies, political stances and opinion about me are encouraged by me to join me in my protest against this unfair ruling! Together, we can bring down this unfair decision and regain our liberties!

In Comradeship

The Red Factions
ADN House representative
TPC Minster of the Interior
TPC Ambassador to North Pacific

It can be very dirty politics if done properly.

I would take offense if I were building a large region and then someone came in and started taking nations away. The bottom line, though, is that once you are in a region you should be protected against being spammed by regional recruiters. If someone wants to leave a region or is interested in seeing what else is out there there are venues for that purpose.

I personally believe that if you cannot get your recruiting needs done in the feeder regions, then you are just not doing something right in the way that you are recruiting.

I am recruiting in feeders and the RR only, and yet my region is almost 500 nations big. It is a sign of weekness, if need to spam/recruit nations who already made a choice. At a certain point nations should be freed from those messages.
Bottomline is that there was a thread, where everybody could state their opinion, while there was no modruling. Now there is a ruling, and we should obey those rules.

I have never complained about recruiting, in fact, my recruitement drives, made in the feeders have proven to be very succesful and have made me, in all modesty, earn some praise, which I truly appreciate :-)

I don't see though, what founders have to say about what's in my inbox or not. A nation might have made a choice, but did not know fully what was out there waiting for them!

Recruiters are there to inform, not spam! Bring down this unfair ruling and promote free speech!

In Comradeship

I am recruiting in feeders and the RR only, and yet my region is almost 500 nations big. It is a sign of weekness, if need to spam/recruit nations who already made a choice. At a certain point nations should be freed from those messages.
Bottomline is that there was a thread, where everybody could state their opinion, while there was no modruling. Now there is a ruling, and we should obey those rules.

This is me. I am sorry for the confusion :D

Is this going to be stickied anywhere? It's not that obvious a ruling, and I'd hate for people to get zinged for something that wasn't a clear violation of the "play nice" policy....

Is this going to be stickied anywhere? It's not that obvious a ruling, and I'd hate for people to get zinged for something that wasn't a clear violation of the "play nice" policy....
I'm going ot try to clear up a couple of details with the rest of the Mod Squad (namely, the "Lazarus"/"The Rejected Realms" details), and then I'll find some logical, preexisting sticky to mention this in.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Recruiters are there to inform, not spam! Bring down this unfair ruling and promote free speech!

A couple of things about this statement:

1) Whatever you want to call recruitment ads is fine. Many people consider it spam. I see its usefulness for nations who are new or are matched perfectly with a region that is being advertised. Too many recruiters just send out a blanket statement without specifically targetting nations to match their regions. As Carinthe points out, you can easily get all of the nations for your region from the feeder regions. I do not see the utility of advertising in founded regions. Many citizens will be offended.

2) Freedom of Speech is governed strictly by Max Barry. It's his site, his game, and therefore his rules. If the mods rule that recuitment is wrong in the feeders, then that's it. Period.

Also, I noted our recruiting office in The Realm of Criminology has developed guidelines for recuiting that were designed around the rulings that the mods made in the former forum. Specifically, the ruling was that recruiting was permitted in the Pacifics and the Rejected Realms because they were founded by the Admins. That is the reason that recruiting is not permitted in Lazarus. Thus, there should be a ruling somewhere that indicates this (otherwise my region has been way guilty in recruiting from the RR!).

Will the Moderators be able to tell if a nation received a telegram before or after leaving a feeder region? Particularly if a nation is just passing through a feeder, or if the TG is sent right before they depart? I could foresee some malicious false accusation problems stemming from this ruling. Just wondering if the game machanics allow the Mods to know the exact time a nation moves in comparison to when a TG is sent, etc.

Will the Moderators be able to tell if a nation received a telegram before or after leaving a feeder region? Particularly if a nation is just passing through a feeder, or if the TG is sent right before they depart?

If one day old nation claims to be in another region, after showing a one day old TG, that will be obvious. If the nation is 2 days old, and the TG is 1 day old, it is still obvious that this was not intentional. Further is is just easy to see when a nation has moved, and when a TG has been sent. I don't think you'll get a warning when a several day's old TG has been reported as spam, while the nation is probably just 1 or 2 days older than the TG.
Am I right?

but what if the nation is larger than that, and they are sent the tg when they move to a feeder, perhaps on their way somewhere else...would how could they prove that the tg was sent while they were legitimately in the region??? And what if the feeder regions want to recruit???Are they then restricted to only recruiting from each other???

but what if the nation is larger than that, and they are sent the tg when they move to a feeder, perhaps on their way somewhere else...would how could they prove that the tg was sent while they were legitimately in the region??? And what if the feeder regions want to recruit???Are they then restricted to only recruiting from each other???

What will you say in that TG. Please join us, but do not swap, or we'll eject you? :p Feeders spam nations too, just to unendorse somebody. I see it happen all the time.

I personally only recruit newly founded nations. There is no point in recruiting old nations, who already know we are here.

a) The feeder regions don't need to recruit.
b) We only send TG's to newly founded nations, we consider it spamming to send it to anyone else.

a) The feeder regions don't need to recruit.
b) We only send TG's to newly founded nations, we consider it spamming to send it to anyone else.

Even if you are recruiting for a region with a particular theme? Let's go out on a giant limb here and say...automobiles? I think I should be able to send telegrams to those few who fit the theme of my region. Every one of my recruiting messages is individualized also, so there is no randomness or coldly impersonal telegramming (aka spamming). What is the problem in such an approach?

A couple of things about this statement:

1)As Carinthe points out, you can easily get all of the nations for your region from the feeder regions. I do not see the utility of advertising in founded regions. Many citizens will be offended.

2) Freedom of Speech is governed strictly by Max Barry. It's his site, his game, and therefore his rules. If the mods rule that recuitment is wrong in the feeders, then that's it. Period.




1) I NEVER recruit from player-founded regions excpet in the case where a fellow socialist region is dying and is becoming inactive. Then, I recruit from them and this rule prevent me from doing it, which will benefit NONE. I don't just care about the growth of the proletariat coalition, I also care for the fate of other comrades in Socialist Regions who have been struck by the disease "inactivity".

2) I fundamentally disagree with this. I think we have the right to, as concerned NS community residents to say what's right or wrong and what we don't disagree with. Max Barry created the rules for sure, but that does not mean they're ( Mods and Max ) are always right. We can protest and have the right to do so! We are the ones playing NS and we have the right to express ourselves.

3) I heard this ruling was temporary, therefore, I still have hope.

Whatever you want to call recruitment ads is fine. Many people consider it spam. I see its usefulness for nations who are new or are matched perfectly with a region that is being advertised. Too many recruiters just send out a blanket statement without specifically targetting nations to match their regions. As Carinthe points out, you can easily get all of the nations for your region from the feeder regions. I do not see the utility of advertising in founded regions. Many citizens will be offended.

To an extent I agree with you here. I do think that any recruitment ads should be personally targetted, including those sent out in the feeder regions. Anything else is lazy. I also don't think that regional recruitment ads should be placed in regional message boards. I'm not convinced that large numbers of nations are offended by recruitment attempts however. The vast majority of complaints about it seem to be from region founders who are worried that their members might accept a more tempting offer and wish to censor what their nations may recive as telegrams accordingly.

2) Freedom of Speech is governed strictly by Max Barry. It's his site, his game, and therefore his rules. If the mods rule that recuitment is wrong in the feeders, then that's it. Period.
Absolutely. But their is no mod ruling banning people from expressing an opinion. And I do think its fair enough to ask if personally targetted messages still count as "spam" and if so why.

What about user Made regions that are dyining out or 95%+ dead.
This rule stops an brand new region or a well established regions from sending
a recriutment Msg to the 1/2 active nations in the region asking them to consider your region (for well established regions). In the case of new regions (trying to get nation/players who want to be active)

I think the past rulings are clear. There really is no need to "what if" anything. You can't recruit from founded regions. Period.

The only thing I see up for debate right now is the RR, but I am pretty confident that there was a prior ruling that we are allowed to recruit from there.

And Red Factions, you can fundamentally disagree with the problem concerning freedom of speech, but I will simply redirect you to the FAQ where Max addresses that very issue. You agreed to abide by the rules the day you created your nation.

threr needs to be a detiled ruling stating everything in this case. and it does not have to be long and boring, just make sure you get the messege across

And Red Factions, you can fundamentally disagree with the problem concerning freedom of speech, but I will simply redirect you to the FAQ where Max addresses that very issue. You agreed to abide by the rules the day you created your nation.

True, but I can protest it.

Anyway, how are mods going to enforce this?

[edit] Can I not recruit from dying socialist regions then where they don't have a founder nor any active CV HQ?

Anyway, how are mods going to enforce this?

Actually, this brings up another issue. Do we really need to be giving the Mods more work to do? They already warn/delete recruitment spammers upon a (hopefully) verifiable complaint. Those who are offended by this sort of thing already request help from the Mods because of this issue. So what would this ruling do beyond what is already done other than:

1.) Create another easy way for a player to get another player deleted.
2.) Keep legitimate recruiters who aren't spamming from being able to do what they need to do to make their region grow.
3.) Satisfy a few whiners and nitpickers who can't stand the idea that someone might recruit their best regionmates to a different/better region.

I'm not seeing any significant benefit coming out of this ruling.

heres one along the same lines
feeder region posts for recruiting ads are one per day
but(and theres always a but)
is that per region or per nation posting the ad?

heres one along the same lines
feeder region posts for recruiting ads are one per day
but(and theres always a but)
is that per region or per nation posting the ad?
One CH board ad per region being advertised.

My region is "The Realm of Ambrosia". If I go and post an ad in "The Pacific", and 6 hours later my neighbor "Guapovia" goes and also posts an ad in "The Pacific", then we've violated the rules.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

I must say this.

This is a freaking stupid ruling.

Have a nice day :-)

[edit]This is going to ease people wishing to undermine regional security and unity by postiing another ad in their region's name.

I must say this.

This is a freaking stupid ruling.

Have a nice day :-)

[edit]This is going to ease people wishing to undermine regional security and unity by postiing another ad in their region's name.

You are allowed to dissagree, but not to brake the rules.

As for the undermining of regional security, I don't see that. The second poster (And every poster after thet one) will probably be warned, or punished otherwise, but this will not compromise regional security if you have a tight grip on your own region. Founders and delegates will have to inform their friends and neighbours.

You don't get it. If I want to undermine your security, just after you've posted, I post with an infiltrated "native" on a feeder ad and post a recruitement ad in your region's name.

Then we both get deleted and we have caused havoc and destruction :-)

Not that I intend to do it, I was just illustrating my thoughts.

You don't get it. If I want to undermine your security, just after you've posted, I post with an infiltrated "native" on a feeder ad and post a recruitement ad in your region's name.

Then we both get deleted and we have caused havoc and destruction :-)

Not that I intend to do it, I was just illustrating my thoughts.

Yes you do, adtmit it :p

I already told you that the second poster would probably be deleted. You won't get deleted both, just the one who posted after you. It is easy as that. If you still don't get it, I give up.
Let me tell you one thing: Regional adds hardily get any new members to your region. You're really wasting your efforts on that.

I already told you that the second poster would probably be deleted. You won't get deleted both, just the one who posted after you. It is easy as that. If you still don't get it, I give up.

It would probably be best to let a Moderator answer his query in this case, as I'm not sure that there is a posted ruling on this part of the regional recruiting issue (please link me if I'm wrong).

Let me tell you one thing: Regional adds hardily get any new members to your region. You're really wasting your efforts on that.

Although Nasicournia does not post recruitment ads on regional boards, I would have to refute that claim. I've seen quite a few regions grow by leaps and bounds from advertising in the feeder regions. Quality of recruit-ees, now that may be a different story. ;)

It would probably be best to let a Moderator answer his query in this case, as I'm not sure that there is a posted ruling on this part of the regional recruiting issue (please link me if I'm wrong).


One CH board ad per region being advertised.

My region is "The Realm of Ambrosia". If I go and post an ad in "The Pacific", and 6 hours later my neighbor "Guapovia" goes and also posts an ad in "The Pacific", then we've violated the rules.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation


Although Nasicournia does not post recruitment ads on regional boards, I would have to refute that claim. I've seen quite a few regions grow by leaps and bounds from advertising in the feeder regions. Quality of recruit-ees, now that may be a different story. ;)

Do you count all the irritated members into the "Quality" of the adds? :D To me they all look the same, and most of them draw many unwanted elements.

Frankly, I can see the point of the ads in the feeder nations. But I don't agree that TGs should be allowed. They are just plain annoying, especially when your motto says you're a puppet of a larger nation (refering to my protectorate, Crazed Baseball Fans). But make sure you don't flame in your response...(came close to that)

I think that the only regions that you should be able to recruit from should be the pacific regions and the Rejected Realms. Nowhere else.

This is becoming repetitive now :headbang:

This is becoming repetitive now :headbang:

Yes, it is, hence why I've stayed out of it for now, but at least we know we can still telegram now. :p

Just giving this thread a cursory glance, here. Cog, I don't see why nations shouldn't be allowed to send TGs to people in Lazarus, at least. It makes sense to me on a fundamental level since nations in Lazarus [for the most part] probably aren't really involved with any organizations, having been recently ressurected. Granted, some nations for some reason or another apparently choose to live there, but we can't really discriminate in this case.

The Rejected Realms I'm not so sure about. Most people in the RR are either from another region to begin with [and are probably waiting to get back in, in that case] or RR 'natives' in the sense that they don't really want to go anywhere else.

So, I would suggest that nations be allowed to send recruitment TGs to nations in feeder regions, and to users in Lazarus, but not the RR or player created regions. Any argument that players should be allowed to send ads to players in player-created regions is flawed on the basis that the vast majority of players in these regions are in no way interested in joining your group. This has been proven time and time again by the sheer volume of requests we've recieved over the years [okay, months :p] that we've been moderating. God knows I got my share of recruitment TGs back in the day, which in every observable case served to do nothing more than get me excited at having a TG in my inbox, only to get pissed off when it was more of that "move to x region!" garbage. We're not likely to change the policy on this.

So, I would suggest that nations be allowed to send recruitment TGs to nations in feeder regions, and to users in Lazarus, but not the RR or player created regions.

Thank you for bringing us one step back to square one :p

Any time. Hey, I'm just weighing in here.

Any time. Hey, I'm just weighing in here.

Would you mind humoring me and weigh in on post #29 of this thread?

Actually, this brings up another issue. Do we really need to be giving the Mods more work to do? They already warn/delete recruitment spammers upon a (hopefully) verifiable complaint. Those who are offended by this sort of thing already request help from the Mods because of this issue. So what would this ruling do beyond what is already done other than:

1.) Create another easy way for a player to get another player deleted.
2.) Keep legitimate recruiters who aren't spamming from being able to do what they need to do to make their region grow.
3.) Satisfy a few whiners and nitpickers who can't stand the idea that someone might recruit their best regionmates to a different/better region.

I'm not seeing any significant benefit coming out of this ruling.

1.) As you said not but four lines above in your own post, we "already warn/delete recruitment spammers upon a (hopefully) verifiable complaint." It's not like we're going to delete someone if we don't see the telegram. Unverifiable complaints are always ignored.
2.) This is beside the point. Legitimate recruiters already have a pool of thousands of nations across the feeder regions.
3.) You're thinking too narrowly. What the ruling does is keep thousands of players off our asses for allowing them. It's not really so much a question of Founder control over a region as it is simply keeping the players happy: as I said in one of my previous posts, the vast majority of players abhor regional recruitment TGs, and when they were legal we received hundreds of complaints about them.

It looks to me like you're operating under the assumption that we're ruling this way out of some instintive hatred for people who send out recruitment TGs, or out of some desire to spite invader/defender groups or whoever else is doing recruiting. This is not true. The reason we've made this decision is because of overwhelming player distaste with them.

Thanks for responding. :)

1.) As you said not but four lines above in your own post, we "already warn/delete recruitment spammers upon a (hopefully) verifiable complaint." It's not like we're going to delete someone if we don't see the telegram. Unverifiable complaints are always ignored.

That's good to know. :)

2.) This is beside the point. Legitimate recruiters already have a pool of thousands of nations across the feeder regions.

*sigh* Let's go back to my earlier example of me recruiting for a region with a theme of "automobiles". There are going to be a pretty limited number of car-related nations in the feeders. In order to gain a reasonable number of recruits, I probably will have to recruit from player-created regions. For example, there is a nation in Wysteria called Hemi Cuda. This nation would fit nicely in my "automobile" themed region. This ruling makes it illegal for me to send a telegram to this nation requesting that they consider joining my region. When I send recruiting telegrams they are tailored to the nation that receives them and the nations I choose to TG are very specifically chosen for matching the characteristics of the region. I'm not spamming, so what pecisely am I doing wrong?

3.) You're thinking too narrowly. What the ruling does is keep thousands of players off our asses for allowing them. It's not really so much a question of Founder control over a region as it is simply keeping the players happy: as I said in one of my previous posts, the vast majority of players abhor regional recruitment TGs, and when they were legal we received hundreds of complaints about them.

Ah, so it saves Mods from having to listen to people whine. I can certainly appreciate that, but I don't believe it will accomplish what you suggest it will.

Here's why. I have (and have had) a few nations in the feeder regions ;) , and they get recruitment messages only occasionally. The absolute most one of my younger puppets ever got was three, and that was all it has ever gotten, and probably all it ever will get. Most recruitment messages, even in the feeders, are targetted at a specific type of nation and are individualized. My main nation has only gotten two recruitment messages in the last six months, hardly an overflow, and hardly enough to mention, even though I am not unkown. My regional delegate doesn't get recruitment messages because noone expects a delegate to step down and move to another region, and rightly so. It seems to me that recruitment is already being largely regulated by the players themselves and that there are probably only a few nations who have the misfortune to be targetted excessively, and they are aided by the Mods already.

It rather looks like this ruling will "fix" something that ain't broke.

It looks to me like you're operating under the assumption that we're ruling this way out of some instintive hatred for people who send out recruitment TGs, or out of some desire to spite invader/defender groups or whoever else is doing recruiting. This is not true. The reason we've made this decision is because of overwhelming player distaste with them.

It may look that way, but that is not the case. I am not operating under an assumption about the motivation behind this ruling. I'm operating on the basis of evidence that I have gathered after almost a year of this game.

maybe they should change the ruling to say that IF a region puts it in their WFE that they DON'T want recruitment tg's, then it is illegal to send it to nations in that region...that way, regions who don't want them won't get any, and regions that don't mind it are open for recruitment...then everyone's happy...

Actually, after a dicussion on the matter in the Mods' OMG UBER SECRET FORTRESS LOLOL!!!!111 [tm], I've adopted a much more liberal policy concerning Recruitment TGs. However, there's enough dissent that we'll probably have to rely on the Almighty and Glorious Admin for a ruling. We'll get back to you once s/he gets off his/her ass/assette and makes one.

maybe they should change the ruling to say that IF a region puts it in their WFE that they DON'T want recruitment tg's, then it is illegal to send it to nations in that region...that way, regions who don't want them won't get any, and regions that don't mind it are open for recruitment...then everyone's happy...

Took me 5 tries yesterday, to get everything in my factbook, and now you expect me to add more, just to keep pesky recruiters out? Our factbook is filled to the brim, and not even one character will fit.