NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not sure if this is where I post this or if it's even valid but I'm pretty sure I've found an illegal thread. Illegal in the USA anyway. http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6953664#post6953664

It's a thread about a revolution in America. According to the US Supreme Court case, Gitlow vs NY, it is illegal to advocate the overthrow of the government through violent means. Here's a little summary:

Gitlow v. New York
In 1925, Gitlow vs. NY decided 14th amendment applied to states also in terms of freedom of expression.
"The record in the United States Supreme Court on the basis of which the conviction of Benjamin Gitlow for advocating the overthrow of organized government by force or violence or unlawful means was affirmed by a seven to two decisions."

-Gitlow vs. New York (1925) -In this case, the issue of clear and present danger was often brought up. -Clear and Present Danger Doctrine -Involves two elements: -Seriousness: does a speech create a threat to the state and/or government?

-Immediacy: is the threat so imminent that harm will happen before the state and/or government gets to talk about it?

END QUOTE

I'm not sure if that thread falls under this ruling because of the Clear and Present Danger Doctrine but it may be wise to lock or delete the thread. Within the thread are discussions of the violent overthrow of the government. Again, I don't know if this is a valid complaint but it's better to be safe than sorry.

ah there is a red explanation mark below the nations name click on that and go from there me thinks anyway

Oh... my... god.... give me an f---ing break!

Except I can't really pin it on one nation. I haven't been following the whole thread and saw various things about overthrowing the US gov't. I'm sure not clicking the red thing on all of them.

Oh... my... god.... give me an f---ing break!

Dude, I don't really care about the thread. I just don't want anything "bad" happening to anyone here.

Clearly there is no serious intent on overthrowing the government. It's all merely in jest and/or wishful thinking.

The only reason anyone would want it deleted is because they're offended by the notion.

I dunno. Maybe not in this thread. It's too long for me to read the whole thing now but have you seen some of the stuff on this forum? It may not be anti-gov't but it's pretty nasty and they're dead serious about it.

Stiff, to my knowing we are not subject to American law considering this is physically based in England, ( Jolt U.K. ) and owned by an Australian. I don't see American law being of any importance here.

EDIT

* Reads some thread ... Oh please, I don't see the White House needing to be dragging out the institutionalised paranoia on [i]this[i] one. :rolleyes:

Stiff, to my knowing we are not subject to American law considering this is physically based in England, ( Jolt U.K. ) and owned by an Australian. I don't see American law being of anyy importance here.

Really? Well, in that case... DEATH TO GEORGE W. BUSH!!! (I kid, I kid! ;) )

Senior or Junior ? ;)

That said, lets leave this one be, now. I'm sure we can keep the OMG AMERICAN GOV IS TEH SOMETHING OR OTHER to general, heh.

Senior or Junior ? ;)

Both. And to be fair and balanced, we can throw Kerry in there, too. ;)

This server isn't based in the US, so is not bound by US law.

This server isn't based in the US, so is not bound by US law.

Can we lock this before it degrades into a "OMG! I JUST REALIZED I CAN SAY WHATEVER I WANT AND NOT GO TO JAIL!!!!!! DIE DIE DIE!!!!!!"

I actually already told people in the thread to be very careful about what they say and the reasons for it. I think that was enough. As stated the server is not in the US and Max Barry is not an American citizen. Thus American laws do not apply to NS. However, that doesn't mean that American law enforcement wouldn't contact us for a posters information (that we would give to them btw) if they said some thing extremely stupid. Remember you are responsible for what you post. If you live in a country where some thing is illegal then you may be responsible legally for those comments. So, short of that. I see nothing wrong in the thread.

This server isn't based in the US, so is not bound by US law.

True, but the people are. Plus, the thread is flamebaiting...
must...control...flaming...fist...of...death

-- deleted --

ah there is a red explanation mark below the nations name click on that and go from there me thinks anyway
Generally we prefer players to make a thread here or file a report through the Help page in the game, instead of clicking the red warn button, which alerts all of jolt moderation.

Generally we prefer players to make a thread here or file a report through the Help page in the game, instead of clicking the red warn button, which alerts all of jolt moderation.
...and, really, Jolt Moderation doesn't need to know what kind of a hornets nest they've imported. ;) :D

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Laugh about it for a moment."
NationSates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

However, that doesn't mean that American law enforcement wouldn't contact us for a posters information (that we would give to them btw) if they said some thing extremely stupid. Remember you are responsible for what you post. That's an interesting one-can someone define stupid for us? Would the mods hand over the details of a Venezulean citizen if the CIA expressed interest in pro Chavez/anti America comments, even if nothing illegal had been said?

Well, if the mod is a US citizen or in Us territory, then they's be forced to comply if handed a legal court order or face obstruction of justice.

Well, if the mod is a US citizen or in Us territory, then they's be forced to comply if handed a legal court order or face obstruction of justice.But from the sounds of it the last one wasn't a court order but a "request". I'd just like some clarification on precisely what the stance is. If the Chinese Secret Service ask for details on someone who's been "subversive" about the Chinese Goverment on NS would that also be handed over?

No you misunderstood me. If an American citizen said some thing like "I'm going to blow up x y or z" and the American authorities contacted us for that persons info we would probably give it to them. If you live in a country where such laws don't apply to you, then it probably wouldn't effect you at all. We did have a case a couple of months ago where a Canadian poster said some rather stupid terrorist like things and I guess some one reported it to the authorities and the RCMP did in fact contact us and from what I understand we did cooperate. So, when you post some thing, remember if what you're saying is illegal in your country, you could very well be held accountable for it. You are responsible for what you post, not Nationstates, you agreed to that when you signed up to the site.

Well, if the mod is a US citizen or in Us territory, then they's be forced to comply if handed a legal court order or face obstruction of justice.
I would submit that that mod would promptly resign, thus making it impossible for them to turn over that evidence, pending a judgement from [violet] or Max. However, I think its unlikely that that would happen, as I can see little reason that NS would go to that length to be unco-operative with law enforcement.

No you misunderstood me. If an American citizen said some thing like "I'm going to blow up x y or z" and the American authorities contacted us for that persons info we would probably give it to them. If you live in a country where such laws don't apply to you, then it probably wouldn't effect you at all. We did have a case a couple of months ago where a Canadian poster said some rather stupid terrorist like things and I guess some one reported it to the authorities and the RCMP did in fact contact us and from what I understand we did cooperate. So, when you post some thing, remember if what you're saying is illegal in your country, you could very well be held accountable for it. You are responsible for what you post, not Nationstates, you agreed to that when you signed up to the site.So if someone is gay in a country where it's illegal (say Zimbabwe) they should not mention it on Nationstates, in case the mods hand the information over? If that is the case I think it's worth warning people publically.

(What if someone has said something that is of interest to the authorities without being illegal. Say Letilia. I've never seen him incite anything (he's a pacifist) or say anything illegal but I could imagine his political viewpoints could make him of interest to the authorities, particuarly in the run-up to events like the RNC. Is their an offical NS stance on this).

I'm not trying to be difficult, I just want to make sure I know precisely where people stand on here. :)

Look, NS is like being in public. People can see what you do, and hear what you say. So if you don't want anything to come back to haunt you, don't say or do it.

Well... let's use common sense.

I'm going to kill....
I'm going to blow up....
I'm going to hunt you down.....
I'm going to shoot, stab, garrote, hang.....
I'm going to overthrow....
I'm going to wipe out.....

These are probably phrases you want to avoid.

Please, let's not be ridiculous rules lawyers... your sexual preference is your own business. But if you publicly threaten violence or another crime that will harm others, don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the tail.

Well... let's use common sense.

I'm going to kill....
I'm going to blow up....
I'm going to hunt you down.....
I'm going to shoot, stab, garrote, hang.....
I'm going to overthrow....
I'm going to wipe out.....

These are probably phrases you want to avoid.

Please, let's not be ridiculous rules lawyers... your sexual preference is your own business. But if you publicly threaten violence or another crime that will harm others, don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the tail.

*nods*

Please, let's not be ridiculous rules lawyers... your sexual preference is your own business. But if you publicly threaten violence or another crime that will harm others, don't be surprised if it comes back to bite you in the tail.
Fair enough, so we're going for a general "common sense and proven harm" defination of legality over specific unjust laws in particular countries. That's all I wanted to know. Well moderated the new chap. :D (Hypothetically, what about posters that discuss openly MI5 assets among the left and provide specific examples. Not that I know anyone that's done that already, obviously).

what about posters that discuss openly MI5 assets among the left and provide specific examples. Not that I know anyone that's done that already, obviously).

I doubt any one who posts on this forum has top secret government Intel on any country. It's just a guess..lol

Public information that some one may know about their governments etc.. is fine.

No you misunderstood me. If an American citizen said some thing like "I'm going to blow up x y or z" and the American authorities contacted us for that persons info we would probably give it to them. If you live in a country where such laws don't apply to you, then it probably wouldn't effect you at all. We did have a case a couple of months ago where a Canadian poster said some rather stupid terrorist like things and I guess some one reported it to the authorities and the RCMP did in fact contact us and from what I understand we did cooperate. So, when you post some thing, remember if what you're saying is illegal in your country, you could very well be held accountable for it. You are responsible for what you post, not Nationstates, you agreed to that when you signed up to the site.Yes, the "Taking Action" guy. Galtania.

Oke , Cybercrime in general for non-lawyers

The NS server and host is UK based. This means european privacy laws apply.
And according to those privacy laws it is forbidden to give privacy information to the US without prior governmentpermission (in this case from the UK) .
According to the worldwide Cybercrime-convention (also signed by the US) , a crime investigating nation must ask the nation where the server is based (in this case the UK) for information. They (investigating nation) are not allowed to contact the mods, [violet]max or Salusa for that info.
Next step: The UK will contact Jolt and ask for the information (using UK laws or courts). Jolt will then most probably give it.

However: (main rule) This is only possible and will only be done if the investigated crime is also illegal in the UK and/or your own country. (otherwise the laws of one country could rule the entire internet).

:D

However (also main rule) : This does not mean you can do or say everything you want on this website. The admins and mods moderate this board and they can decide what is offensive and illegal content in their own opinion.
Just read the FAQ and the "Terms & Conditions of Use".

I doubt any one who posts on this forum has top secret government Intel on any country. It's just a guess..lol

I have no comment on that matter at this time. :P

Paapst, that is very useful information. Thanks for the elaboration.