NationStates Jolt Archive


Should we ban hammers and sickles?

Regime Change
01-09-2004, 12:56
I read just now about the swastika debate. I totally agree that it should be banned for a good reason and the good reason was presented. However as another poster (sorry forgot your name) pointed out, there are many other atrocities who's symbols have become unnoticed.
The game must either ban the World War Two hammer-and-sickles of Communist Russia or be seen as hypocritical. If we are to acknowledge the terrible suffering of Jews, we should remember the dead of Stalin's death camps. Whether either is worse than the holocaust is not the point, and people only seem to care so much because of the Jews dead. Many more were killed in Stalin's camps, but they get little publicity, because there are few rich russians in high places in the world at the time to organise memorials etc.
I am not trying to start a debate about Swastikas or the holocaust but it is true, if we are to ban swastikas for a reason other than a random whim, we must ban Hammer-and-Sickles (does this symbol have a proper name?) too.

I mean not to provoke the mods on this one, I'm just interested about the philosophy behind the symbolism rules.
Huzen Hagen
01-09-2004, 13:05
I read just now about the swastika debate. I totally agree that it should be banned for a good reason and the good reason was presented. However as another poster (sorry forgot your name) pointed out, there are many other atrocities who's symbols have become unnoticed.
The game must either ban the World War Two hammer-and-sickles of Communist Russia or be seen as hypocritical. If we are to acknowledge the terrible suffering of Jews, we should remember the dead of Stalin's death camps. Whether either is worse than the holocaust is not the point, and people only seem to care so much because of the Jews dead. Many more were killed in Stalin's camps, but they get little publicity, because there are few rich russians in high places in the world at the time to organise memorials etc.
I am not trying to start a debate about Swastikas or the holocaust but it is true, if we are to ban swastikas for a reason other than a random whim, we must ban Hammer-and-Sickles (does this symbol have a proper name?) too.

I mean not to provoke the mods on this one, I'm just interested about the philosophy behind the symbolism rules.

although under the hammer and sickle many many people died in concentration camps it has not come to symbolise that whereas the swastica is always associated with the holocoast. I think that would be why the mods dont mind the hammer and sickle
Axis Nova
01-09-2004, 13:14
Soapbox'd
Regime Change
01-09-2004, 13:16
Soapbox'd? I'm not familiar with that one. Meaning?
Komokom
01-09-2004, 13:17
I am not trying to start a debate about Swastikas or the holocaust but it is true, if we are to ban swastikas for a reason other than a random whim, we must ban Hammer-and-Sickles (does this symbol have a proper name?) too.

I mean not to provoke the mods on this one, I'm just interested about the philosophy behind the symbolism rules.If you have read the swastika " debate " you should already know the reason why. I'm sure a Moderator or [violet] could explain it far better then I, but in my humble opinion, if you have read the so called " debate ", you should under-stand that the decision has been made to ban a particular symbol for a particular reason. Further-more, from the thread you have just read from, I suggest you read again the quote of [violet] which should clearly have explained the reasoning why.

I'll come back and put a direct link here for others shortly.

EDIT : http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6921908&postcount=2
Myrth
01-09-2004, 13:22
Swastikas are banned.
Nothing else.

This has been debated time, and time, and time, and time [ad infinitum] again.
Jhenova
01-09-2004, 14:05
My flag is a known hate symbol, what do you think of it myrth?

should we ban all medical crosses because they resemble this White Power symbol?
Un-Censored Media
01-09-2004, 14:19
the hammer and sickle otherwise know as the scmiker should not be banner because it represents industrial and agriculturual aspects of nations not just communism ,everyone sees symbols meaning different things .but if you want to ban something through ignorance thats fine ,im sure it will be fine with all the other nations that have the hammer and sickle and are comfortable with it .
ps im not having a go at u just the whole symbolism thing
...the nzis ruined the swashsticker they made it symbolise hate and intolerance when it use to be the european goodluck and power symbol ,maybe Stalin ruined the schmiker too..
New Sigmisund
01-09-2004, 14:36
was not "annother" person, it was the person who started it.

and 'twas not a debate, 'twas intelligent convesation quashed by an unfair dictator, never had the chance to be a debate. . . . .
Saints John
01-09-2004, 14:49
Except that the Swastika was used as the national flag by the single most genocidal political party in history.

If you want to make the argument that because people suffered under the leaders who flew the hammer and sickle, why not ban the national flags of China, Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Vietnam and North Korea?

The hammer and sickle was adopted as the Soviet flag well before Stalin's rise to power. It was adopted orginially with a rifle, hammer, and sickle, symbolizing the soldier, worker, and farmer respectively. The rifle was removed because of the horrors the Russian people suffered during World War I, and many did not want to bring this to light.

How about we ban anything with a rising sun on it? After all, the Japanese used chemical warfare against Chinese civilians during WWII for tests and to spread chaos, and they did inhumanely treat millions of POWs.

Stalin's death camps are an entirely different issue than the Holocaust, because the Holocaust was a concentrated effort to exterminate a particular type of people, the Jews, whereas Stalin condemned those he felt were opposed to him and the goals of the party, and therefore the greater good of the people. That it was evil is not to be denied. However, Stalin died in 1953, and Nikita Kruschev took over the government, and publicly denounced many of Stalin's practices.

But hey, you can be as facist and asinine as you want, cause certainly any symbol that has death and suffering associated with it must be banned. I guess that includes the Stars and Stripes because didn't the US force a large group of people of a certain ethnic group off their land and force them into remote, controlled camps? And how about slavery? And if you want to get real modern, how about the Japanese internment camps during WWII? I guess we have to respect the Japanese too, and ban the American flag.

Shut up and stop trying to be a regulator.
Peaceful Possums
01-09-2004, 14:51
Hmm, i haven't read any of the previous threads mentioned, but i think they don't ban the scmiker because it is still used on the Chinese flag.

By the way, do you think the mods'll allow this symbol?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://sunshine.naoe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/morimoto/manji.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sunshine.naoe.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/morimoto/&h=2000&w=2000&sz=132&tbnid=uOQqlLkkezgJ:&tbnh=150&tbnw=150&start=31&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmanji%26start%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN

(yeah yeah, i know it's a long hyperlink..)

This is a symbol in Japanese Shintoism. All the foriegners always ask about this, but it's just coincidence that this sign, manji , is a swastika backwards. Dya think the mods'll allow it?
Or will the following be coming my way? :sniper:
Relaxed
01-09-2004, 14:59
A monkey that goes backwards does not change. It is still a monkey :p
Altithronia
01-09-2004, 15:11
If you're going to ban the hammer and sickle, you may as well ban the American flag. After all, it did fly as the Native Americans were forced west. One could consider that to be ethnic cleansing of the American frontier.

Also, the British flag should also be banned. They committed many atrocities during their Imperial days.
New Sigmisund
01-09-2004, 15:48
i see no one defending the stars and stripes, or the union jack (year, ours actually has a NAME)
Cogitation
01-09-2004, 16:19
By the way, do you think the mods'll allow this symbol?

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...DUTF-8%26sa%3DN

(yeah yeah, i know it's a long hyperlink..)

This is a symbol in Japanese Shintoism. All the foriegners always ask about this, but it's just coincidence that this sign, manji , is a swastika backwards. Dya think the mods'll allow it?

That symbol closely resembles the swastika and is not allowed on NationStates flags.

If you're going to ban the hammer and sickle, you may as well ban the American flag. After all, it did fly as the Native Americans were forced west. One could consider that to be ethnic cleansing of the American frontier.

Also, the British flag should also be banned. They committed many atrocities during their Imperial days.
The American and British flags are in active use by globally recognized governments in real life. To the best of my knowledge, all such flags are available by default in NationStates.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
Bodies Without Organs
01-09-2004, 16:19
i see no one defending the stars and stripes, or the union jack (year, ours actually has a NAME)

Yup, and that name is the 'Union Flag'.
Bodies Without Organs
01-09-2004, 16:21
By the way, do you think the mods'll allow this symbol?

No: it is still a four-legged swastika, thus it is still banned regardless of direction. A triskelion (three-legged swastika) is still allowed however - see the Isle of Man flag or the AWB flag for examples.


EDIT: posted while Cogitations response was still pending.
Kryozerkia
01-09-2004, 16:33
I do agree that it should be banned.

Here is good evidence: Stalin's Forced Famine (http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm) in which 7 million Ukrainians died because he enforced a DELIBERATE famine on these people which killed them. Now tell how the Holocaust is any worse than this?

NOTE: I do NOT deny the Holocaust, but am challenging the banned Swatiska versus the NOT banned sickle and hammer.
Bodies Without Organs
01-09-2004, 16:39
I do agree that it should be banned.

Here is good evidence: Stalin's Forced Famine (http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm) in which 7 million Ukrainians died because he enforced a DELIBERATE famine on these people which killed them. Now tell how the Holocaust is any worse than this?

NOTE: I do NOT deny the Holocaust, but am challenging the banned Swatiska versus the NOT banned sickle and hammer.


If you read the writing on the page (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/04506/page=upload_flag) where you can change your flag you will see the words -

"Images likely to cause widespread offense (e.g. nudity, swastikas) are prohibited"


Where horrific things done under Stalin in a country that flew the hammer and sickle? Yes, certainly. Is the hammer and sickle likely to "cause widespread offence"? No, apparently not.
Mikitivity
01-09-2004, 19:27
Swastikas are banned.
Nothing else.

This has been debated time, and time, and time, and time [ad infinitum] again.

Good, because I draw the line at Scythes and Pitchforks. ;)

Has anybody made a custom "ClubMed" flag replacing the hammer and sickle with a tennis racket and golf club yet?
Sputnikland
01-09-2004, 19:39
If you want to make the argument that because people suffered under the leaders who flew the hammer and sickle, why not ban the national flags of China, Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Vietnam and North Korea?


Yeah right, Iraq was excatly a communist regime.
And Iran! Oh yeah! That country is soooooooooooo communist! What I don't understand is why they have so many mullah and why they praise the Holy War if they are atheists like the communist countries.

... being enemy of the USA doesn't mean you're communist. Mpf.... -___-
Bodies Without Organs
01-09-2004, 19:45
Yeah right, Iraq was excatly a communist regime.
And Iran! Oh yeah! That country is soooooooooooo communist! What I don't understand is why they have so many mullah and why they praise the Holy War if they are atheists like the communist countries.

... being enemy of the USA doesn't mean you're communist. Mpf.... -___-

I think Saints John might have been arguing not that those countries were communist, but that they had regimes which cared little for the welfare of the individuals in their country and had no qualms about abusing them or mistreating them if it was seen to be politically expedient. Could be wrong, but I think that was SJ's point.
Myrth
01-09-2004, 19:51
Anyway, the rules are there. They have been for over a year. They're not changing.

Feel free to e-mail admin@nationstates.net if you think that will change anything.