NationStates Jolt Archive

Hi, I am the delegate of North Pacific (note there is no The in front)
I hope I am posting in the right place, have never used the NS forum before

My region got invaded recently, but we have retaken power, but the risk of getting invaded again is still high, therefore I would like to ask if I as a native delegate can password protect the region whiteout giving the password to all the nations of the region, we don’t have a founder, and if I give the password to all nations it will come out anyway, whit 200 nations it’s must be someone that speaks.
I am asking to be sure of not braking any rules, the last my region needs is to be whitout Delegat agian.

So can I just password protect it or must the entire region then know of the password?
Oh and I would prefer if one of the mods answer, just to know for sure.

I might ad that I have just been relected, and the invader did eject me so I where gone from the region for almost one day, so well, what I want to know is, Can I as native delegate password protect whitout giving the password to all nations, and if yes, will the mods see me as native even if i was ejected and ban so therofe gone from the region one day.

I can also say that before the invasion I was delegate for a month, and have lived in the region for some time (do not remeber how long, have changes nations beacuse of the name)

thanks in advance

If the Delegate is native, and the majority of his endorsements are natives too, passwording is legal, and you don't have to tell the natives, since there is no invasion, and there are no natives. Natives are only an issue if the delegate is an invader.

I thught so, so now the qustion is, if an invader would report me to the mods, just to tray, would the mods see me as native, being that many of my endorsers are not from the region but came to help when invaders trayd to take over agian. and being that i came to the region yesterday after a day gone beacuse of ejction and being ban by the invader delegate.

I want to be 100% sure before I do anything

You have to have more native endorsements than anyone else in the region to be a native delegate.

Nothing seems wrong here. You can pass-protect and not tell people. It's just a safety precaution.

Natives are only an issue if the delegate is an invader.

This to be read: Natives are only an issue if the delegate is an invader/defender

You have to have more native endorsements than anyone else in the region to be a native delegate.
I would say "Internally-Elected Delegate" rather than "Native Delegate". Aside from that, this is exactly correct.

If the Delegate is native, and the majority of his endorsements are natives too, passwording is legal, and you don't have to tell the natives, since there is no invasion, and there are no natives. Natives are only an issue if the delegate is an invader.
Not exactly correct.

First, I will try to define "native" and "non-native".

A "native" is a nation that resides in the region long-term, where the owner of that nation considers that region to be home. (I'm not sure what the judgement is for players with many puppets and who keep several puppets in several places long-term. Carinthe and Crazy Girl: I'm looking at you, here. :p ) If a native nation grants a UN endorsement to any nation, then the endorsement, itself, is called a "native endorsement".

A "non-native" is the catch-all designation for any nations that aren't natives. The "native" and "non-native" sets are all-inclusive and mutually-exclusive; a nation must be one or the other, not both, and not neither. Spies residing in a region long-term and working for an outside force are not natives. If a non-native nation grants a UN endorsement to any nation, then the endorsement, itself, is called a "non-native endorsement".

...

Next, I will define "Internally-Elected Delegate" and "Invader Delegate".

An Internally-Elected Delegate is a Delegate who has more native endorsements than any other nation in the region. The Delegate, himself/herself might be a non-native, but has the greatest support from natives.

An Invader Delegate is a Delegate who holds the position only because one or more non-native endorsements keeps that Delegate in power. The Delegate might be a native, but if someone else has more native endorsements than the Delegate, then the Delegate is an invader Delegate.

This is important, so I'll spell out the implications clearly: It's possible for a "native" to be an "Invader Delegate" if someone else in the region has more native endorsements. It's possible for a "non-native" to be an "Internally-Elected Delegate" if that nation has more native endorsements than anyone else.

The rights of a native of an invaded region is dependent upon whether or not the nation, itself, is native. The limitations on the actions of a Delegate are dependent ONLY upon whether or not the Delegate is an "Invader Delegate" or an "Internally-Elected Delegate", according to the definitions above.

Invader Delegates may not permanently ban natives from the region. Invader Delegates must distribute any new password to all of the native nations. Invader Delegates may not mass-eject natives.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

...

One may note that it is therefore illegal for an "Invader Delegate" who is also a "native" nation to permanently ban himself/herself from the region. To this, my response is: "Get a life. :p "

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Laugh about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

(I'm not sure what the judgement is for players with many puppets and who keep several puppets in several places long-term. Carinthe and Crazy Girl: I'm looking at you, here. :p )


*whistles innocently* :p

Cog, kuddos on those rules! They fit in nicely with current practice and clarify a lot.

I'm not happy about the equal power over natives of non-native internally-elected delegates versus native internally-elected delegates, but at least there's a distinction made. I'll take that as a good first step ;), as to me "non-native internally-elected delegate" is just an invader who endorsement swaps his/her way to delegacy instead of bringing friends along.

Ballotonia

Wow! Does this means, that if I enter a feeder region and swap my way to the delegate seat, I will be seen as an invader? Not that it means anything, but does that means that I never become native, since I never was one in the first place? *Looking at Francos Spain*

And if I create a puppet, that spawns in The Pacific, Francos can never ban me completely?

I am getting a headache :mp5:

I'm not happy about the equal power over natives of non-native internally-elected delegates versus native internally-elected delegates....
Keep in mind that the natives put that nation in power of their own free will, even though they may not necessarily have suspected anything.

Hearken unto my words and let this serve as notice to you all: Beware!

...by they way, remember that not even an "Internally-Elected Delegate" may empty the natives from a region.

Wow! Does this means, that if I enter a feeder region and swap my way to the delegate seat, I will be seen as an invader?
Incorrect. If you swap your way to the Delegacy, then you are "internally-elected".

Not that it means anything, but does that means that I never become native, since I never was one in the first place? *Looking at Francos Spain*
I don't recall the relevant ruling. Invaders who stay in an invaded region very long term may or may not become natives. Again, I don't remember the relevant ruling.

And if I create a puppet, that spawns in The Pacific, Francos can never ban me completely?
Incorrect. Francos Spain swapped his way ot the Delegacy, and he is therefore "internally-elected".

I am getting a headache :mp5:
Ballotonia, you might want to explain this to her in Dutch. :)

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

Ballotonia, you might want to explain this to her in Dutch. :)

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

Don't bother. I am one of the "nice" players. I don't eject people to enhance my gameplay experience. If I ever would "invade" a region, I strategically eject the oposition just a few minutes before the update in The RR, and unban him/her immediately. That way when one of them bothers to come back, they are cleaned out of endorsements.

I understand the concept of native support now. Thank you very much :p

Well, as I understand it was ok for m to password protect the region and don’t give the password to anyone, but I must say all these really made me confused at first, so I to was getting a headache.

Thank you all for explaining, even if I now have more questions then answers, but I at least have the answers I needed.

*vaguely recalls a ruling that there are no natives in the Pacifics*

*vaguely recalls a ruling that there are no natives in the Pacifics*
I don't think that any such ruling exists. However, real life has occupied a significant fraction of my time, so I might be a bit out of the loop.

I would imagine that the typical reason Delegates in feeder regions can permanently ban natives is because most feeder Delegates get their positions by endorsement swapping with natives of the feeder region. Thus, they become "Internally-Elected Delegates" and are not subject to the invasion rules.

I will put this on my list of "Things I need to discuss with other Mods and get to you about". As there are now a lot of things on that list, please remind me if I do not address this after a week or two.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

i think i know where that came from..

when franky took over the pacific, the mods ruled there are no natives in the pacific (because franky never invaded the pacific, but simply endorsement-swapped his way into delegacy).

apparently, this lead some players to believe there are no natives in the pacifics, in any case.

I definitely remember Neut saying that. I'll try to find a link, though with the threads being all different, can't promise anything...

edit: I can't find the actual thread, looks like it's been pruned or something. I have a copy of it though, in case anyone cares. cg was exactly right...

So, the Pacific Army and those that supported the previous Delegate dont like this new one because he's started cleaning house, and ejected you and your friends from a starter region.


I'd like to mention that THERE ARE NO NATIVES. Stop using that term to attempt to get this guy removed. There was NO INVASION. Therefore, no natives. Go find everywhere that Native's been defined.


Now, the way I see it, you all can quit spamming the boards and griefing the new delegate, or you can all be warned and DEATed.


Here's the way it works. There are thousands of nations in the Pacific region. It's a feeder region. Ejecting 100+ nations with offensive names and those attempting to overthrow the Delegate is not exactly as untowardly as people are trying to make this seem.

If his actions are so horrible, how come he's still delegate? Obviously he holds the popular vote. And an argument that he ejects anyone else who gets close doesnt account for the 300+ endorsements he still holds. Apparently, there are still nations that support this delegate and his actions to clean up his region.

Leave it to a CyberFruit Merchant, to come with the right answer and a whole lot of propaganda with it :p

Just a technical note: the definitions of native / non-native used to be only defined within the context of an invasion. Since Francos Spain's action of taking control of The Pacific wasn't deemed an invasion, it simply meant the term wasn't defined (also the term 'non-native' BTW). This is how Neut's "there are no natives" should be read. At least, thats how I interpreted it back then and still do.

And to be really picky: Cog's definitions appear valid even outside invasions, which IMHO make them better. It at least makes discussing things easier.

Ballotonia

How long do you have to be in a region to be a native?

Leave it to a CyberFruit Merchant, to come with the right answer and a whole lot of propaganda with it :p
Eh, I hate this title. And you should know me well enough to realize I wouldn't agree with any of the 'propoganda' I quoted.

Ballo, I think that's exactly what cg and I were saying..

How long do you have to be in a region to be a native?
There's no set limit. If a limit were specified, some invaders might try to invade a region in such a way that the limit "makes" them a native.

So, this really depends upon a players' intent (which, unfortunately, is hard to measure). This really will be largely up to Moderator judgement.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

This is important, so I'll spell out the implications clearly: It's possible for a "native" to be an "Invader Delegate" if someone else in the region has more native endorsements. It's possible for a "non-native" to be an "Internally-Elected Delegate" if that nation has more native endorsements than anyone else.

The rights of a native of an invaded region is dependent upon whether or not the nation, itself, is native. The limitations on the actions of a Delegate are dependent ONLY upon whether or not the Delegate is an "Invader Delegate" or an "Internally-Elected Delegate", according to the definitions above.

Invader Delegates may not permanently ban natives from the region. Invader Delegates must distribute any new password to all of the native nations. Invader Delegates may not mass-eject natives.


I don't want to co-opt this thread to go on about the Pacifics, but I think that what you said means that in "The North Pacific," when Great Bight was delegate, he was an invader delegate. And therefore he shouldn't have been able to permanently ban natives.
At the time he started banning, he had less endorsements than another native nation (Thel DRan, which he banned before update).
And towards the end, he was supported mainly by non-natives.

The only way the above stated rules work is if there are no natives in the Pacifics, because GB banned quite a few "native" nations permanently. Alternatively, since GB was elected by natives, once he's in office is he permanently an "Internally-elected delegate"? Even though he could subsequently be supported entirely by non-natives?

I know this is after the fact, but it's a point I think needs to be clear. I really like the above definitions; they seem to be fair. But there are some clarifications that would be important.

Thank you!

I am a native of this region and I have not received the pword to this region. I must insist that I do. Unelion seized controls of the region unfairly. He has locked out people from the region. I must, as native, receive the pword.

how did he seize it unfairly?
and if he's a native delegate, he doesn't need to give you the password.

Evoyyep, I am both native and “internal elected” even if I had help from defenders, and that because your friends came to invade after the mods ejected you from the UN for braking the rules, I still have more native endorsements than any other nation.

that doesnt mean that you can set up a pword and not tell the natives! this is an injusitce!

when i was delegate, I was a native delegate. i still felt obliged to send it out.

that doesnt mean that you can set up a pword and not tell the natives! this is an injusitce!

when i was delegate, I was a native delegate. i still felt obliged to send it out.

The point made above in this thread is that he doesn't have to tell the natives, because he is internally elected.

So if you consider yourself a native, stay in the region, you shouldn't need the password.

Evoyyep, you where an invader, that’s why you could not ban any natives, you had to fallow invader rules. And you UN multi as well so don’t be so pathetic.
For some strange reason I have received telegrams from nations saying how wrong we are doing to you, oddly the all live in invader regions. It the first time I here invaders care about justice and democracy in an other region