NationStates Jolt Archive

I have a little dispute with someone from another region. People from their region are targetting our nations for recruiting purposes, and thus persuade them to leave our region, and join theirs. I was highly offended by this, but I decided to talk about this with the founder of the region, where the recruitments came from. S/he told me that it was completely legal to TG nations in user-created regios for recruiting purposes. Have I been in the dark for so long? :confused:

Is this legal or not? This requires a mod answer, so please respect that.

S/he told me that it was completely legal to TG nations in user-created regios for recruiting purposes.

...if one obtains the permission of the Founder or Delegate first. In this case, that's you. They must ask you ahead of time and you have to say "Yes" before they can start advertising. If they don't get your permission and they advertise, anyway, then it's spam.

Tell them that they have to have Founder permission to advertise, and you do not give them permission to advertise in your reigon. If they continue, then file a Getting Help request.

Was this discussion by telegram? Which of your puppets is involved? I'd like to check the telegram box.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

This was directed at me and not at one of Carinthe's puppets. Unfortunately, I have deleted the original recruitment telegram...

The member has deleted it, and I really don't want to make a big deal of it. I just thought that I was wrong, telling that it was illegal.
You may check the topic, where the founder of that region stated that it was legal. I am founder of our region, but I never speak as founder. I never give permission to use our region for recruiting purposes. Personally I think that is stupid. Especially if the offending region has his/her own passworded.

http://www.mig81.com/carinthe/viewtopic.php?t=1299

No membership required.

Is there a topic dedicated to this ruling/can I ask when it was passed? I've never heard of it myself, and while we frown upon people excessively recruiting from our own regions, I've never reported anyone for it because I have read before that it is legal.

Each and every time we do decide we'd like to ask someone to join us, we have to telgram the Founder or Delegate? Even if it's in a personal TG? Also, what about all the times that nations are sent telegrams in the Pacifics right before moving somewhere else, as in the scenario above?

...if one obtains the permission of the Founder or Delegate first. In this case, that's you. They must ask you ahead of time and you have to say "Yes" before they can start advertising. If they don't get your permission and they advertise, anyway, then it's spam.

Tell them that they have to have Founder permission to advertise, and you do not give them permission to advertise in your reigon. If they continue, then file a Getting Help request.

Was this discussion by telegram? Which of your puppets is involved? I'd like to check the telegram box.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

I thought the original rules said you'll had to obtain permission from the Founder (or delegate) to post a reqruitment message on the regional HQ.
Now you say it's forbidden to send a reqruitment telegram without permission of the delegate/founder. And off course no sane founder/delegate will allow this.. which also means people in founderless & delegateless regions may be sent reqruitment telegrams.. where's the logic in that?
Why don't you just forbid the whole damn thing and disable telegrams?

If someone's in a dying region, why shouldn't you be able to invite him to your region..

This kind of disputes is a common fact. You'll get annoyed if somene systematically tries to snatch people away from your region. Just try to be reasonable and talk with the guy, ask him to stop... Or send some recruitment telegrams back.. as long as you don't spam or grief people, this shouln't be an issue.


By the way, this is just another example of some mods just says something, and yups.. there's a new rule. This is really getting annoying, since everyone is supposed to know all of the rules, but the rules aren't even written out. The rules are just quotes scattered all over the forums. How do you expect people to live by the rules? No-one read those stickies, all those pages.. It's almost impossible for a non-full-time-player to know all of them.

Is there a topic dedicated to this ruling/can I ask when it was passed? I've never heard of it myself, and while we frown upon people excessively recruiting from our own regions, I've never reported anyone for it because I have read before that it is legal.

Each and every time we do decide we'd like to ask someone to join us, we have to telgram the Founder or Delegate? Even if it's in a personal TG? Also, what about all the times that nations are sent telegrams in the Pacifics right before moving somewhere else, as in the scenario above?

I started this topic for your statement, that it was legal to recruit natives from other founded regios. Mistakes happen. Many read their messages after moving away from a feeder.

I really don't want to make a big deal of it

I'm sorry if I sounded annoyed. I don't really mind getting recruitment telegrams, wherever I am. It may or may not be considered spam but if the person who receives them ignores them, there shouldn't be a problem at all.

Also, I think that the recruiter sent me that telegram while I was still in the Pacific or while they thought I was still in the Pacific, as Pope Hope said was possible.

EDIT: I obviously post too slowly. Two replies in the time it takes me to type this.

How does one know if a Founder actually granted permission? Does one need to keep "evidence" of this in one's telegram box in order to protect yourself?

I was under the impression that no moderator stance had been taken on this, as I addressed the issue a few months ago, when I'd telegram nations who were just founded, later moved to a new region, told that Founder that I was targeting their region, and conflict ensued usually via flamed reponses.

Telegramming nations is by far the most effective way of recruiting in this game and my region is proof enough of that.

I asked for a mod answer, and I got it. I am happy with that answer. Any other answer would have sparked spamwars between regios. Now everybody else is joining this thread, I rather have it locked.
I asked for a mod answer only.

I asked for a mod answer, and I got it. I am happy with that answer. Any other answer would have sparked spamwars between regios. Now everybody else is joining this thread, I rather have it locked.
I asked for a mod answer only.

Yes, but this issue effects others, too.

Wait a minute.... This was a recruitment telegram?

Okay, I need to learn to actually read topics.

Okay, when I talked about telegrams earlier in this topic, I thought Corinthe and the Founder of this other region were having a discussion by telegram.

For clarification, I was thinking CH board recuitment posts, for which you need Founder/Delegate permission. If it's recruitment telegrams, then I'll have to get back to you.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

Wait a minute.... This was a recruitment telegram?

Okay, I need to learn to actually read topics.

Okay, when I talked about telegrams earlier in this topic, I thought Corinthe and the Founder of this other region were having a discussion by telegram.

For clarification, I was thinking CH board recuitment posts, for which you need Founder/Delegate permission. If it's recruitment telegrams, then I'll have to get back to you.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

My mistake. I should have called it "Recruitment Telegrams" :(

I hope it's okay for this discussion to continue for a little while, Carinthe. Since you've expressed distaste for the practice, I'll tell our recruiters to steer clear of your region no matter what (though I assume we'll both still hit nations in the Pacific before one moves to the other region, if you get my drift).

I'm just hoping for a clarification on the policy. I can't at this moment offer linkage to previous discussions on this topic, but I remember seeing something about the "Ignore" Sender option changing the rule on being able to send out recruitment telegrams to any nation, anywhere. I know that before the "Ignore" Sender option was created, recruitment telegrams were illegal, because a loooong looong time ago (about a year, in fact), I didn't know that rule existed either, and received my first and only ever warning in this game because someone reported a recruitment TG as spam.

In my region, we usually use recruitment attempts out of our own region as a chance to further diplomacy with the region attempting the recruitment, so I really don't have a problem, personally, with recruitment telegrams sent to nations in any region. It's a lot better IMO than regions crowding up the feeder region boards with recruitment messages, and people who receive the telegrams can easily ignore them or block the sender if they find it necessary. I just want to make sure that on the occasion we do happen to do that (we do send invites to nations in inactive regions that will most likely leave the game unless they move somewhere interesting), we're not breaking any new standing rule we're not aware of.

That "ignore" thingy is completely worthless, with so many recruiters, and since you have to receive it firts. I'll wait for a mod answer. I have never deliberately targetted any other region than a feeder. I wished that I could say the same of you, and many other recruiters. I didn't create my region, so others could leech of it.
Please, let's wait for a mod answer now. I say a recruiter need founder permission first. It was the best mod answer I heard for long time.

If your region is strong, secure, and united, you shouldn't be threatened by regions trying to recruit within it.

If your region is strong, secure, and united, you shouldn't be threatened by regions trying to recruit within it.
That's a point.

On that note, it's just common courtesy to ask the founder/delegate/whatever first.

I think that recruitment TG's should be allowed, as long as it's a personal message, and by that I mean you know more about the person you're talking to than their nation's name. If you're TGing random people in the region, than you should ask first, but if you're inviting a friend, or if the topic arises within conversation, than it should be allowed, but out of courtesy you should let the leader of the region know.

Also, if they're a new nation, and you TGed them before you knew they left the starter regions, than that should be ok.

wtf!?! Jack-a-nape, this is the wrong thread to posting that in. If you want to post recruitment threads, do so in Gameplay.

wtf!?! Jack-a-nape, this is the wrong thread to posting that in. If you want to post recruitment threads, do so in Gameplay.
Correct.

iDelete the ad.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

I once had a very aggressive campaign where someone TMed everyone in my region (including me) to try and recruit them following a failed invasion attempt.

Extra thought:
I think making this illegal wouldn't be a good idea, cos it means you could get warnings even for non-spammy TMs, like if you were headhunting a particular person for a senior post in your region based on their performance in their own region

I recall Neut ruling on this a long time ago.

If my memory serves me, the end result was that non-personal recruitment telegrams sent to nations not in The Pacific are deemed illegal. Basically, anything 'bulk' is spam. Targetted messages however are legal: it's ok to ask someone you know, or like for some specific reason, or when the other region is a split-off from a region and they're asking their fellow region members to join them in moving to the new region. Stuff like that. Anything in between is a grey area left to the mods.

But, it seems the mods are discussing this again, so let's see if any modifications are made (or maybe I remember it wrong, who knows?).

Ballotonia

I liked the first ruling:

1: Only in feeder regios and The Rejected Realms.
2: In user created regios only with consent with the founder or elected delegate.
3: Not in Lazarus, period!

I don't see why this should be any different than the rule on posting recruitment messages in the regios civil HQs.

2: In user created regios only with consent with the founder or elected delegate

This is absurdity. How someone else would decide for me if I want to receive a recruitment TG? Yes, the regional HQ is his/hers and no one can post recrutments there but no one sould tell me what I can receive or not in my inbox. If it's a spam, abuse, etc. I can ignore/report/etc. but this is absurdity.

This is absurdity. How someone else would decide for me if I want to receive a recruitment TG? Yes, the regional HQ is his/hers and no one can post recrutments there but no one sould tell me what I can receive or not in my inbox. If it's a spam, abuse, etc. I can ignore/report/etc. but this is absurdity.

When are you gonna decide if you want to receive it? Before, or after you got it?
That whole spam thing is a grey area. Wait, maybe I'll ask you first, before I'll send you a telegram. That is easy, problem solved. :p
We need somebody levelheaded on this. We are starting to lose reality here.

When are you gonna decide if you want to receive it? Before, or after you got it?
That whole spam thing is a grey area. Wait, maybe I'll ask you first, before I'll send you a telegram. That is easy, problem solved. :p
We need somebody levelheaded on this. We are starting to lose reality here.How are we going to do that? Send someone a telegram asking if they mind getting a telegram?

How are we going to do that? Send someone a telegram asking if they mind getting a telegram?

Asking permission to the founder, or delegate in case of no founder, is much more logical. Chances a slim that you get that permission, so I rather have a mod saying that it's not allowed. Regios need that TG box for communications with other leaders in that region. It takes 10 recruitment TGs to completely wipe out communications. Recruiters who target user-created regios, have obviously no respect for all the work that the founder has done, to create the region, and complete disregard for other more important telegrams that nation might have in his/her box. Everybody here thinks that s/he's alone recruiting here.

As Tuesday Heights said, if your region is good enough you shouldn't worry about this thing. If some other player (not mods or admin) decides what I can receive... ughh, that doesn't sound good.

As Tuesday Heights said, if your region is good enough you shouldn't worry about this thing. If some other player (not mods or admin) decides what I can receive... ughh, that doesn't sound good.

Who decides that my region is good enough to spam recruitments? I have regios where nations communicate once or twice a week. Should their boxes be wiped out by stupid spam adds too?
You may receive anything you want. No mod will decide that for you, but people can't send anything they want. That is a whole other issue.

Even in the feeder regions my puppets receives no more than 2 or 3 recruitment TGs in thei history. Of course, each time one of them is yours, Carinthe, but that's not the point :) It's very hard to wipe out someone else's inbox (15 TGs as far as I know) without breaking some other antispam-rule. And if you receive so many TGs (and so important) to be scared of loosing them you could copy&paste them into a text file.

Who decides that my region is good enough to spam recruitments? I have regios where nations communicate once or twice a week. Should their boxes be wiped out by stupid spam adds too?I don't think reciving one recruitment ad can qualify as spam.
Regios need that TG box for communications with other leaders in that region. It takes 10 recruitment TGs to completely wipe out communications.One easy solution round that would be for all recruitment TGs to me marked as such in the subject line. Recruiters who target user-created regios, have obviously no respect for all the work that the founder has done, to create the region, and complete disregard for other more important telegrams that nation might have in his/her box. Everybody here thinks that s/he's alone recruiting here.I respect the fact that you personally have put a lot of effort into your region/forum. However I don't think that you can take control over your members mail because of that. Whatever work you've put in, it's up to you to keep your members happy so they don't leave. Take the real world as an example. International Alliances often recruit new members by offering favourable trade conditions etc. and I think that's a legitimate part of NS. To show I practice what I preach, anyone is free to send a single recruitment telegram to any members of the Region of Paggea, where my other nation, Kalimon, is UN delegate. (There is a founder but I'm the 'power behind the throne'). It won't do you any good 'cos all the members love me. ;)

I don't think reciving one recruitment ad can qualify as spam.
One easy solution round that would be for all recruitment TGs to me marked as such in the subject line.I respect the fact that you personally have put a lot of effort into your region/forum. However I don't think that you can take control over your members mail because of that. Whatever work you've put in, it's up to you to keep your members happy so they don't leave. Take the real world as an example. International Alliances often recruit new members by offering favourable trade conditions etc. and I think that's a legitimate part of NS. To show I practice what I preach, anyone is free to send a single recruitment telegram to any members of the Region of Paggea, where my other nation, Kalimon, is UN delegate. (There is a founder but I'm the 'power behind the throne'). It won't do you any good 'cos all the members love me. ;)

I really like to have a mod opinion/rule here. This isn't helping me one bit, as I think there is already a rule for this. I really don't care much for individual rules here, since nobody here cares that I don't want it. As I stated in my first post here, I rather wait for a mod word on this. If the rule is that any nation may be targetted for recruitment, no matter where that nation recides, it could be very lucrative to write a script here. One which targets all nations in the game, once a month, or so?

I recall Neut ruling on this a long time ago. If my memory serves me, the end result was that non-personal recruitment telegrams sent to nations not in The Pacific are deemed illegal. Basically, anything 'bulk' is spam. Targetted messages however are legal: it's ok to ask someone you know, or like for some specific reason, or when the other region is a split-off from a region and they're asking their fellow region members to join them in moving to the new region. Stuff like that. Anything in between is a grey area left to the mods.
I could live with that. Wasn’t really aware of this before now..

If the rule is that any nation may be targetted for recruitment, no matter where that nation recides, it could be very lucrative to write a script here. One which targets all nations in the game, once a month, or so?
Telegram scripts aren’t allowed..
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=302815&page=1

I could live with that. Wasn’t really aware of this before now..


Telegram scripts aren’t allowed..
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=302815&page=1

Well, I think I can send them manually, if I check the The World list. That should be doable once a month :headbang:

I really like to have a mod opinion/rule here. This isn't helping me one bit, as I think there is already a rule for this.

If there is a rule about that it's well hidden ;) I'm sure the mods will tell us what they think but meantime we also have the right to express our opinion ;)

Well, I think I can send them manually, if I check the The World list. That should be doable once a month

If you have few spare days...

I really like to have a mod opinion/rule here. This isn't helping me one bit, as I think there is already a rule for this. I really don't care much for individual rules here, since nobody here cares that I don't want it. As I stated in my first post here, I rather wait for a mod word on this. If the rule is that any nation may be targetted for recruitment, no matter where that nation recides, it could be very lucrative to write a script here. One which targets all nations in the game, once a month, or so?But if you take my defination, that nations should only be targetted once for recruitment, than that would qualify as spam. Nobody cares that you don't want it because some of us don't want to set a precedent that region founders get to censor what TGs their region members can recieve. And be clear, that is what you're proposing. Do you have a link to the thread where you think a ruling has already been made?

Do you have a link to the thread where you think a ruling has already been made?


When x=10 goto line 1, x=0.

I other word. Please re-read the first post in this topic.

As Tuesday Heights said, if your region is good enough you shouldn't worry about this thing. If some other player (not mods or admin) decides what I can receive... ughh, that doesn't sound good.

I never said "good enough," please, quote me correctly on this. I said if a region was SECURE enough, it shouldn't be worrying about other nations recruiting in their region, as they should be secure enough to not lose members to those feeble attempts.

If the rule is that any nation may be targetted for recruitment, no matter where that nation recides, it could be very lucrative to write a script here. One which targets all nations in the game, once a month, or so?

However, if you actually did that, a nation opposed to you or your region who is on vacation mode may come back and report you for spam if you sent that same nation more than one.

You'd have to keep very, very careful records; which is what I've done since day one.

I never said "good enough," please, quote me correctly on this. I said if a region was SECURE enough, it shouldn't be worrying about other nations recruiting in their region, as they should be secure enough to not lose members to those feeble attempts.

OK, sorry. That was my poin too

Well, I think I can send them manually, if I check the The World list. That should be doable once a month :headbang:
Manual mass-telegrams are also spam. I think you can only send out small batches of personalized telegrams.

Again, I'll have to get back to you.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

You've said repeatedly you only want a mod to respond, but I'm throwing my two cents in anyway. As long as the recruiter is not spamming your region's message center, or has actually set up a program that is spamming individual members with telegrams, I think you really need to let it go. If someone wants to send a targeted telegram to a specific member, what is the real damage here? You have very nearly 400 people in your region, are you really worried that you won't have enough people to boss around if someone sends some invites to your members? Think of it this way, if they're really happy in your region they won't want to go elsewhere, if they're not happy then they will eventually leave whether or not someone has invited them to go somewhere else. Get over it.

Instead of constantly telling me that I should let it go, I hope this quote will put you all to rest, and stop spamming anywhere but the feeders for a while:



I can't remember the rules for recruitment telegrams, so I suggest sticking to the feeders for now. I will get back to everyone with a ruling... eventually.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Please re-read the first post in this topic.I have a little dispute with someone from another region. People from their region are targetting our nations for recruiting purposes, and thus persuade them to leave our region, and join theirs. I was highly offended by this, but I decided to talk about this with the founder of the region, where the recruitments came from. S/he told me that it was completely legal to TG nations in user-created regios for recruiting purposes. Have I been in the dark for so long? :confused:

Is this legal or not? This requires a mod answer, so please respect that.And no-ones giving you an answer so we are respecting this. This has been purely a discussion on people's opinions on the topic. Nobody's forcing you to join in.

And no-ones giving you an answer so we are respecting this. This has been purely a discussion on people's opinions on the topic. Nobody's forcing you to join in.

Another one on "ignore". Man, I love that option :p

OK, now is the time a mod to come and enlighten us

<--- We want a mod
<--- I like the mods [roasted and cooked with the appropriate sauce] :D

Another one on "ignore". Man, I love that option :p

I don't. You can now ignore anyone you don't want to listen to for all the wrong reasons, case in point.

I don't. You can now ignore anyone you don't want to listen to for all the wrong reasons, case in point.Shhh. Don't disagree with her or she'll ignore you too. ;) (Not that she'll be able to resist reading this :D)

If I was a spammer, I think I would be telegramming everyone in her region to let them know how controlling and unwilling to listen to others' opinions & thoughts, their leader is. I remember getting "spammed" with a telegram from The Young World some time back when I was NOT in a feeder region. I'm so glad I ignored it.

If I was a spammer, I think I would be telegramming everyone in her region to let them know how controlling and unwilling to listen to others' opinions & thoughts, their leader is. I remember getting "spammed" with a telegram from The Young World some time back when I was NOT in a feeder region. I'm so glad I ignored it.
Whoa there. Wait for a mod decision before you even think of that kind of action squire. I am intrigued to know how many other people Carinthe has sent telegrams to however.

I'm not going to do something like that. That's why I said "If." I don't know that it was her specifically that sent the telegram (sorry if I misrepresented that), I just remember being telegrammed by someone inviting me to that region.

I'm not going to do something like that. That's why I said "If." I don't know that it was her specifically that sent the telegram (sorry if I misrepresented that), I just remember being telegrammed by someone inviting me to that region.
It was probably from "Gothic Kitty"- one of her puppets.

It was probably from "Gothic Kitty"- one of her puppets.

Yeah, 9 out of ten times I get the same telegram from Gothic Kitty to join her region with the puppets I create every other day or so, which I don't mind at all.

Like I've said before, recruitment telegrams - impersonal or not - are the best and most effective way to gain nations for one's region; it just works, because CH messages disappear too quickly.

I agree, if TGs weren’t allowed the Pacific’s regional boards would be overwhelmed with more recruitment spam.

I agree, if TGs weren’t allowed the Pacific’s regional boards would be overwhelmed with more recruitment spam.

Exactly.

If their is an exact ruling about the legality of recruitment telegrams, I will be lodging a letter to the administrators about it, as I do strongly believe in the benefits of using them.

We don’t post on the Pacific’s boards but if TGs are not allowed we will have no other choice.

Correct.

iDelete the ad.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Wow, guys. Just, wow. Way to completely miss the humor. Wow. I thought it might be funny if I posted recruitment spam in a thread militantly denouncing recruitment spam. Way to go. :headbang:

Wow, guys. Just, wow. Way to completely miss the humor. Wow. I thought it might be funny if I posted recruitment spam in a thread militantly denouncing recruitment spam. Way to go. :headbang:

If it helps, I thought it was funny, but the moderator's forum is serious business :mp5: :sniper:

I was under the impression that sending some telegrams to recruit was legal, as long as you didn't go overboard on copy and pasting to too many people.

I was under the impression that sending some telegrams to recruit was legal, as long as you didn't go overboard on copy and pasting to too many people.

I was not, but we're waiting for a mod answer on this one.

but we're waiting for a mod answer on this one.

I'm ready - I have provisions for a week

I was under the impression that sending some telegrams to recruit was legal, as long as you didn't go overboard on copy and pasting to too many people.

I sent more than 100+ telegrams a day during three periods, usually morning, afternoon, and night hitting the "newly founded" nations in the feeders.

If we're suppose to only send a "clear amount" of telegrams, how will the mods keep track of that?

I do not understand why, when telegramming has been effective, it can suddenly be called to be illegal potentially? This so-called "spam" is propaganda, a political technique to attract nations, rather than the normal-everyday-spam you see on the forums.

Anyways, I also eagerly await a mod response.

I send hundreds everyweek as well as TH.

I believe that as long as a recruiting message isn't posted on a player created regions CH board, then its ok, i.e. allow to telegram people in player created regions.

If that is a problem for anyone, then they have the same rights as everyone else and can do the same to the region that did it to them.

This may spark of a small recruiting war, but as long as a nation doesn't receive more than one recruiting message from a single region, then it should be ok and not considered spam.

I was not, but we're waiting for a mod answer on this one.

Yes, and I've been waiting for months as well... because I was the first one to ask for a mod response on it... here. (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6407850&postcount=16)

Yes, and I've been waiting for months as well... because I was the first one to ask for a mod response on it... here. (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6407850&postcount=16)

You gotta "bump" once in a while :headbang:

I also was under the impression that private telegrams were ok. I think we are now waiting for an answer because Carinthe didn't like the answer as most people understood it to be.

I also was under the impression that private telegrams were ok. I think we are now waiting for an answer because Carinthe didn't like the answer as most people understood it to be.

So nice of you to make it a "personal" thing. Why don't you tell me the rules, if you think you know it?

You gotta "bump" once in a while :headbang:

Not when you know there's more important things to worry about, like the integration of Jolt and such. ;)

Not when you know there's more important things to worry about, like the integration of Jolt and such. ;)

What important things? All is working great here :p

What important things? All is working great here :p

I meant at the time the thread was created...

So nice of you to make it a "personal" thing. Why don't you tell me the rules, if you think you know it?

I do believe that you were the one that asked the question, as you were unhappy that people were telegramming people in your region. If I've misrepresented that you let me know.

I do believe that you were the one that asked the question, as you were unhappy that people were telegramming people in your region. If I've misrepresented that you let me know.

I have to agree with Legol here, Carinthe; you seem to be the only one with a major problem with this tactic.

I have to agree with Legol here, Carinthe; you seem to be the only one with a major problem with this tactic.

No problem, but I was not asking for an attack on my person. Now we all know why I just asked for a mod answer. Can we all wait for Cog's answer, as he promised, or do you guys keep on attacking me? I will settle for anything. Even if a mod came here saying that there are no rules for recruitment spam Why are you posting in this thread, if you are not bothered with the current situation?

I think that you are just afraid for what the outcome may be.

No problem, but I was not asking for an attack on my person. Now we all know why I just asked for a mod answer. Can we all wait for Cog's answer, as he promised, or do you guys keep on attacking me? I will settle for anything. Even if a mod came here saying that there are no rules for recruitment spam Why are you posting in this thread, if you are not bothered with the current situation?

I think that you are just afraid for what the outcome may be.The irony of someone who puts people on Ignore for daring to disagree with her, and trys to stifle discussion of the issue by constantly trying to bully the rest of us into silence until a mod arrives, accusing anyone else of making things personal amuses me greatly.

I haven't made anything personal, Carinthe, but as much as you want to believe that this issue only effects you and your region, you're wrong.

This issue directly effects me, my region, and countless other Founders/regions within the NS world.

Most of us, through telegram swapping (despite our political differences) agree that losing recruiting telegrams is a bad idea for NationStates in general.

This issue is not an issue between you, Cog, and the moderator staff; face that - it's an issue brought up by you that may effect everyone within that world.

Therefore, I reserve my right to speak in this thead, and until told otherwise, will continue to do so.

However, I must point out, I've never made a personal attack or such against you, just your practices.

You have no idea what the consequences are, if the outcome is that recruitment telegrams in user created regios are allowed. My friends are asking me constantly if they can help me. I can easily designate any of them to recruit from all regios bigger than 100. We have more nations willingly to do that, than there are regios of 100+ in NationStates. Be honest, you don't like it, and I don't like it. I still remember the "Death to Corinthe" thread, when I started recruiting in the Feeders. I was never out of line, yet they kept on complaining about me. I will make sure that something like that will not happen again. I want to be fully informed about the rules, so every time when somebody complaints, I can say "I brake no rules!"

I was in the young world and got the recruting telegram. I was just happy that someone TG me. :(

I was going to sugest some sort of pyramid sceme where everyone in the young world go out and find one new member from the feeders, but now I don't even know if founders have the right to recruit let allone me.

Carinthe, stop treating me like I don't know what is what in this game, because I do, most likely, more than you do.

I recruit EVERYDAY in the feeders, and I do get the harassment from nations who don't know the rules; well, guess what? I ignore it, and if it's a flame, I report it, because I know I'm within my NS legal rights.

Let's face it, if you can't handle the flame, don't play the game; stop making everything so much more difficult for the rest of us when you're the only one with the problem here.

Let me tell you something, I do like regional recruiting telegrams - so, don't act like you know what's on my mind, please, that's not fair for either of us to do - because they are part of the game that helps cater to the creativity of marketing and to gain membership. They're just another aspect of this game.

You, and others, are trying to ruin this game by trampling on key elements of propaganda that are essential in politics.

I was in the young world and got the recruting telegram. I was just happy that someone TG me. :(

I was going to sugest some sort of pyramid sceme where everyone in the young world go out and find one new member from the feeders, but now I don't even know if founders have the right to recruit let allone me.

That was my idea too. Have all the natives in our region recruit everything what moves. Believe me or not, but I only recruit newly created nations from the feeders. And when I am bored, I contact nation who join, or leave the UN. I am the only one recruiting, and it takes a large part of my gameplay time. I just want to know if I'm allowed to send messages to everybody, everywhere. Is that to much to ask?

Tuesday Heights is again ignored. Stop making things so damn personal. Try giving your opininion in the moderator's forum, without adressing me personally, and we talk again. Don't tell me what I am allowed to ask, and what not. You take it far too personal.

I'm currently on Carinthe's ignore list, but feel free to quote this so she can see it anyone.

Carinthe, you were the one that was falsly accusing Tuesday Heights of making personal attacks on you. You're also the one that keeps throwing temper tantrums at anyone that disagrees with you. Kindly stop acting like a petulant child.

I am constantly in awe of how this new forum is helping communication and under-standing between player-kind develop. :D

Tuesday Heights is again ignored. Stop making things so damn personal. Try giving your opininion in the moderator's forum, without adressing me personally, and we talk again. Don't tell me what I am allowed to ask, and what not. You take it far too personal.

First, and foremost, you need to step away from your computer; I have not made this personal, in my realm of scope, but on my region's list of causes, it is our number one priority right now for regions of personal growth. If you can't see that, perhaps, you need to be playing another game.

Second, instead of ignorning people, why not actually listen to their arguments instead of simply dismissing them saying, "Oh, well, you're telling me what to do (when I'm not)." I have launched a thread for a campaign to eliminate the Ignore feature because of you, because you're hindering this debate by ignoring myself, and I wonder how many others?

You're taking this way too personal. It's now personal, because you're making it personal; you ignore me, I go on crusade (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6695451#post6695451). Simple as that.

I have said time-and-time again in this thread that regional recruiting telegrams are a key element and crucial benefactor in this game, so, have many others.

My region has taken off because of them. Pure and simple, look at the numbers, I haven't seen you produce any facts, any harassment telegrams, any actual complaints thus far that have validity. The others here notice that, too.

Why can't you see that the majority is against you in your cause here, because truly, as anyone can see, this is your cause alone.

I don't care if you ignore me, I will continue to respond to you in this thread about this issue; I'm here for the longhaul, because I will not let my region suffer because you have an issue with recruiting telegrams.

I am constantly in awe of how this new forum is helping communication and under-standing between player-kind develop. :DWhat you saying like? You, me, outside now. :D

It's now personal, because you're making it personal; you ignore me, I go on crusade. My thoughts exactly. I'd go as far to say that Carinthe's public use of the "Ignore" function as a weapon could be considered dangerously close to flamebait. Ironically I don't normally bother recruiting. But if we get a mod ruling that it's legit I'm sorely tempted to specifically target The Young World out of sheer bloodymindedness. (Although I don't have the forum with "the most smileys on the net" or anything).

I’ll throw my two cents worth in, I don’t see how they can ban recruiting letters in the Pacific’s or the private regions. This would be the end to all the large founder regions because they are constantly trying to grow larger and replace the nations that cease to exist. My only suggestions would be that the TGs should be personalized, this would eliminate copy and paste jobs. When an unpopular delegate comes to power in one of the Pacific’s they allow hundreds of telegrams to un-endorse the delegate. In my opinion spam is when you contact every nation in a region.

I am at a loss here.

What realms are ACCEPTABLE to place message-board regional adverts?
(As in, which ones are feeder realms?)... I found the "rejected realms" but could not find "the pacifics".

I found the "rejected realms" but could not find "the pacifics".

The North Pacific
The South Pacific
The East Pacific
The West Pacific
The Pacific

Do not forget that "The" is part of their names.

And it is "The Rejected Realms. Not "Rejected Realms". It is always with "The".

Thank you for the information.

I did use "the" before "rejected realms" when I searched and found it.

Yes, it's always important to get the right "feeder" region rather than the knock-off North Pacific (without the "The" in the beginning), etc. etc. etc. regions that have developed.

First, there is an ignore button somewhere on this forum? I really need to use it more.

Second, why are Cathrine and Tusday Helights fighting? From what I can tell, they seem to be on the same side of the issue, a.k.a, people being able to TG anyone in the game no matter where they are. I just hope the mods don't lock this thread bebore we get an answer.

Third, would Lasarus technically be considered a feeder region? It's not a player created region.

It's interesting that those of us that see this as an issue relevant to all that play the game, rather than simply a question asked by one player, are being accused of making it a personal issue. The fact is that you asked a question that could potentially change the way that many of us play this game. Thus it became a universal issue that many chose to comment on. I'm sorry if you (Carinthe) wanted to keep it as a personal issue, but I for one had things to say about it on behalf of those I represent. You are welcome to ignore what others have to say but you do so the detriment of all. This is not a game for only you to play or an issue only affecting you, it is a game for all of us and an issue affecting all of us. Thus we all participate and you should respect that.

Third, would Lasarus technically be considered a feeder region? It's not a player created region.

Lazarus is a mod controlled region. That is a big "no no no" to all recruiters, unless they like to be deleted.
Lazarus is where all Nations are going after deleting them. Lazarus is where they are, after reviving them again.

This is not a game for only you to play or an issue only affecting you, it is a game for all of us and an issue affecting all of us. Thus we all participate and you should respect that.

Games are not played in the moderator's forum. I specifically asked for a mod response. I know how important this is, so I accept no speculating. Cogitation promised to consult the other mods, and that we had to wait for an answer. I accepted that, and so should anybody else here.

Maybe this thread should be locked pending a moderator response?

Maybe this thread should be locked pending a moderator response?

I agree.

I agree.

I don't. This is an issue that effects more than just Carinthe, but as the mods work, it'll be locked and this debate on a solid issue will go to waste.

I'm done here, for now. We'll wait for a response, then, if needed, the real fight will begin.

Games are not played in the moderator's forum.

He never said games were played in the Moderation forum; he said games are played in NS. You're the only one here playing: "This-game/issue/whatever is all about me, my nation, my region."

Yes, it's always important to get the right "feeder" region rather than the knock-off North Pacific (without the "The" in the beginning), etc. etc. etc. regions that have developed.

True, another difference is that the real feeder regions will have thousands of nations in, 'knock-offs' have a couple of hundred or so.

I agree.

Yeah, I think it should be as well. I was away for several days and this thread has exploded with a great deal of speculation.

How often are people allowed to submit a message to a regional message board for the advert of their region?

How often are people allowed to submit a message to a regional message board for the advert of their region?

If it's a user-created region, than it's illegal.

If it's a user-created region, than it's illegal.

I specifically asked for a mod response. I know how important this is, so I accept no speculating.

.

I usually don't pay a whole lot of attention to recruitment telegrams. Some of the regions I've been in have had little roleplay, or I found the RP in the region unappealing for whatever reason.

I might be open to consider a region move if I'm in such a region and the recruiting country gives me more than the standard fluff. That's actually the reason that I'm in Atlantian Oceania (the country that invited me to join made a point to tell me the region is selective about whom it invites). Plus, there's a lot going on in that region that I like (and the region's founder designed my flag :D).

If someone's being annoying about TGing you, you can click on an option to ignore their telegrams. If they try to pester you in other ways, then go see a moderator.

I see no harm in sending a TG to a country to invite them to join a region. It's not like anyone is pointing a gun to your head to force you to join. If they post on your regional message board, that's a different issue.

Heh.

I knew that much. I was talking about for the feeder regions.

Heh.

I knew that much. I was talking about for the feeder regions.

The guidelines that I recall are once every 24-hours per region, but I could be wrong.

I believe that as long as a recruiting message isn't posted on a player created regions CH board, then its ok, i.e. allow to telegram people in player created regions.


I agree.

The guidelines that I recall are once every 24-hours per region, but I could be wrong.

Your correct.

Sorry Carinthe, I know me posting is the exact oposite of what I'm posting for but, Geez, can you guys ( specifically Tuesday Heights) make your own freaking thread? He is asking kindly, over and over to make this only mod response because he has a question for a mod, not for you. If he wnated you, he would ask you, or just say anyone who can help, but he didnt, he specified only mods. If this is so important to you, make your own topic. This is Carinthe's topic for his own question. GEEZ!

This is Carinthe's topic for his own question. GEEZ!

I thought Carinthe is she. Hmm, something to say about that, Carinthe? :P

I thought Carinthe is she. Hmm, something to say about that, Carinthe? :P

Sure. Can someone lock this topic?! The answer isn't coming anyway. Soon we'll all be deleted for spamming, because the mods ignore the issue. :headbang:

You gotta "bump" once in a while :headbang:
Yeah, once or twice a week is good.

I also was under the impression that private telegrams were ok. I think we are now waiting for an answer because Carinthe didn't like the answer as most people understood it to be.
Incorrect. You are waiting on an answer because neither I, nor any other Mod, gave you a final answer.

So nice of you to make it a "personal" thing. Why don't you tell me the rules, if you think you know it?I do believe that you were the one that asked the question, as you were unhappy that people were telegramming people in your region. If I've misrepresented that you let me know.
She did ask a question as she was unhappy about a particular situation. Fine. Whatever her motivations, she had a question on legality. She wants to know if something is legal or not. However, neither I nor any other Mod has given her a straight answer yet. Your first post, quoted above, seems to assume that a straight answer is already readily available, which is not the case (to the best of my knowledge).

So, in my official opinion, you, Legol, were the first one to make this personal.

My thoughts exactly. I'd go as far to say that Carinthe's public use of the "Ignore" function as a weapon could be considered dangerously close to flamebait. Ironically I don't normally bother recruiting. But if we get a mod ruling that it's legit I'm sorely tempted to specifically target The Young World out of sheer bloodymindedness. (Although I don't have the forum with "the most smileys on the net" or anything).
...and I'm tempted to rule that a form of griefing.

If it's a user-created region, than it's illegal.Originally Posted by Carinthe
I specifically asked for a mod response. I know how important this is, so I accept no speculating..
Whited Fields did not specifically ask for a Moderator response. Additionally, Carithes answer is almost correct.

Posting recruitment messages on the Civil Headquarters boards of user-created regions is illegal UNLESS you first telegram the Founder and ask for permission to post an ad. If there's no Founder, then you can telegram the Delegate and ask for permission.

Heh.

I knew that much. I was talking about for the feeder regions.The guidelines that I recall are once every 24-hours per region, but I could be wrong.
Correct. You may post one ad per feeder every 24 hours without the permission of the Delegate.

...

<Carinthe vs. everybody>
Okay, everyone knock it off.

Carinthe: Do not thratean to use the forum ignore function or say that you are using the forum ignore function. If you're going to use the forum ignore function, then use go ahead and use it, but don't talk about it.

Tuesday Heights: In recent days, I have seen you become more and more confrontational with other players. These confrontations are on the verge of becoming flamewars. Your treatment of Carinthe in this thread is an example. On debates of site policy, you DON'T have to worry if other players are ignoring you. We Mods and Admins don't use the forum ignore function, and we can see your posts just fine, so we will take your arguments into account. We're the ones who have to hear and consider your opinion, not Carinthe, and not any other ordinary player.

I'm not issuing official warnings this time, but don't push it.

...

On the matter at hand.... Normally, if a player asks a question on legality or asks for Moderator assistance and stipulates that he/she only wants a Moderator answer, then the player has the right to get ONLY a Moderator response. However, this is a case where the question is on a matter where there is no established policy, or where established policy might change, so it's reasonable to open the floor to debate. So, Tuesday Heights is justified in saying that the matter affects everyone. Nevertheless, this does contradict the normal operating procedure of "If you want only a Mod answer, then you get only a Mod answer" and could cause confusion, so I'd really appreciate it if all of you would refrain from laying into Carithe like a battlefleet bombarding a fishing boat!

I am constantly in awe of how this new forum is helping communication and under-standing between player-kind develop. :D
Oh, if only we could say that in all seriousness.

...

Now, I am sorely disappointed on how this discussion has been conducted and I am very tempted to lock this topic. However, I'm going to leave it open in case anyone has something useful to contribute and posts it in a civil manner.

Before you post... "Think about it for a moment."

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

I will step down from this discussion until a mod rule is made, and if it is an unfavorable ruling, I will make an appeal.

bump :sniper:

We're still discussing it. At the rate it's going, though, I think we'll need another few days. Bump this again next week, please.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

We're still discussing it. At the rate it's going, though, I think we'll need another few days.

Ah! We all understand the moderators are busy people with lives outside of NationStates... we appreciate that you lot are discussing it. Thank-you for that.

I'll actually make my first contribution here if I might. I haven't posted in moderation before so Moderators, don't drop dead in fright please.

On the matter of recruitment using telegrams in regions with a delegate and/or founder,

1. Any attempt to ban recruitment would be unequally enforced since there's no way to find out (on the part of us founders) whether or not a region targeted Nation A which moved from your region to someone else's region unless that nation doesn't in fact move and complains to you as founder, which you can then report to the mods.

2. Regions keep members because they are active. If they're not active, why shouldn't members have fun in a different region? A lot of nations don't use the main forums here on NS - myself included. That's not something that's going to change. Thus the best way for new nations to find out about regions is to be sent a telegram.

3. By all means impose limits on the content of the telegram - normal rules should apply.

4. Controlling the amount of telegrams sent so long as they are sent by hand shouldn't be an issue. Some of us spend hours looking up the UN list which notes down new arrivals and departures from the UN, so that we can build our regions into the formidable centres of activity which drive the game. My region is the sixth or seventh largest user created region in the game because our activity levels attract and hold on to players who are initially brought to the ASE because we telegram them to tell them about our region.

Sorry if what I've posted hasn't made particular sense nor added anything that hasn't already been said, though I'd appreciate if Cog could give us an update on general mod feeling at this point in time.

Here, if it matters, is my opinion on the matter of advertising one's region in a Founder/Delegate Controlled region.

It is alright, in my opinion, for one to advertise one's region following certain rules:

Advertisement is fine in any of the 5 Pacifics, them being the Ellis Island of all of Nationstates.

Advertisement in non-pacific regions is permissible on 2 accounts- Founder's permission, and if your region's subject/type/role-play nature coincides in any obvious ways to the region you are trying to advertise in. I feel that's alright since it adds a bit of realistic competition for 'dominance' in a particular role, and hence makes the game that much more interesting.

Advertising Limbo in Heaven, for instance, bothers me not one bit. Trying to get people from The Exclusive Capitalizt Zone, however, is not only laughable but downright dumb.

So I say that while the mods should take no action against Recruiters, I feel that anyone wishing to recruit should just go with common sense such as above. Not only is it more likely to get more members, especially ones that are possibly themed to your region's theme, it is less likely that the regions in which you advertise will be offended by it.

Ah! We all understand the moderators are busy people with lives outside of NationStates... we appreciate that you lot are discussing it. Thank-you for that.

Suck up! Ingratiator!

I prefer acting like the person I'm trying to suck up to. Because as they say, Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ;)

I started a thread a while ago about whether it is okay to post a URL for off-site forums in the civil hq and, well, that thread got locked so I can't bump the thread. I'm just curious if there was any discussion on the matter?

I know Cogitation told us to focus on the feeder regions for now - ignoring the UN list - but is it just me, or are nations now specifically targeting the regions that have posted to abolish this practice in these threads?

In the last 72 hours, my region has been targeted by 4-5 recruiters... I don't mind it, but it just came out of nowhere... and I was wondering if my region was the only region experiencing this...

My region gets recruited from all the time. Often by smaller regions. The large user-created regions can't avoid it. Particularly behemoths like Europe, NationStates, Gatesville etc.

That's understandable, EuroSoviets, it's just this is the first time it's ever happened to our region. While we aren't as big as regions like your own and Gatesville and the like, I didn't think we were drawing that much attention to ourselves just yet to merit it.

It's just a wave right now. It's interesting, to say the least, but I find that most people are recruiting for the UN list now that I've confronted them... which Cogitation told me was not to be done.

Due to issues with the new forums (ie not being fond of them, as nice as it is to be able to log in to them- unlike the last ones), I am quite late to the party here.

My comment is on recruting TM spam.

I just wanted to add (sorry if it has already been covered) that one of the main difficulties I have with spam in the feeder regions is identifying indivdual Vs Group spam. I have several puppets in feeders. And I often get spam to endorse one nation, or unendorse another.

I know that a person can only spam TM a nation once without getting a response. I also know that a group can likewise only spam TM a nation once withouth them asking for more info (it's not like each member can spam that nation, if it is an action of the group only one TM can be sent to that other nation). How can a person tell if the 3 UnEndorse or Endorse TMs they recieve are all from the same group, even if they are from different nations? I don't imagine you want every recruitment TM reported to you so that you can figure if they are legal or not. Likewise, it seems probable that groups are taking advantage of our inability to tell if we are recieving the same type of TMs over and over again fromt he same group, even if from different nations.

Hmm, I hope that made at least a bit of sense.

~Ack

I hope that the day a moderator comes to this thread, s/he can still find what the subject is :p

I hope that the day a moderator comes to this thread, s/he can still find what the subject is :p

I agree! LOL! :D

Bump.

*stroking goatee* Interesting

and another scenario to throw into the works

a couple months ago when i was still delegate of the region WYnet i recieved a telegram from the creator of a region for representatives of UN delegates. once i had created a puppet and moved it in i found that a fairly professional operation was goign on to telegram every delegate in the game! once each. does this count as recruitment telegram spam? or even a recruitment telegram? because it explicitly said 'move a puppet nation'

I hope that the day a moderator comes to this thread, s/he can still find what the subject is :p

I would guess that there is either a lack of interest, or a lack of time, as it still seems to be without the attention you requested.

Such is life...

I would guess that there is either a lack of interest, or a lack of time, as it still seems to be without the attention you requested.

Nevertheless, a ruling must be made and this thread is proof of that.

I for one, as a regional leader, would be very interested in a ruling on the matter of recruitment.

/me walks through the topic and gently...bumps...

The nations that appear on the first page of the World are constantly bombarded with recruitment messages. Those nations are targeted as individuals, not as members of specific regions. However, if telegrammed recruitment messages require the permission of founders, almost every noob who creates his own region would automatically get a strike against them, since the first people they TM are the guys on the front page.

Those of us who get the occasional recruitment TM once every few weeks or so but complain about spam have no concept of the kind of volume the world leaders get. We should count ourselves lucky.

As long as recruitment messages are kept off the boards of user created regions, I'm happy. The occasional recruitment TM I get just means that somebody out there cares. ;)

-bump-

Well, as long as there are no sudden deletions for sending recruitment spam, I see no need for this topic to stay alive. If this isn't an issue, we might as well let it die in peace, like it never happened.

Maybe this isn't such a big issue as we all think. ;)

Maybe this isn't such a big issue as we all think. ;)

I would disagree only because of the three flaming telegrams for recruiting sitting in my inbox right now, and the flaming telegrams I get weekly for recruiting.