NationStates Jolt Archive

Now if this is in the rules and I missed it I apologise ahead of time.


What happens to a Region that is successfully invaded, but the invaders turn out to be multi's and get ejected from un and/or deactived?

Now the natives that were to run the Region had been ejected or left to regroup, but if the region was lost do to cheating (the Mods dealt with the players themselves)..shouldn't it be returned to the control of the natives whom never should have lost the region in the first place?

The situation is playing out in Nazi Europe. The ejection of the cheaters were kind of sudden, so we didn't get a chance to get our active native UN members into the region before it updated. That left the last of the invaders a delegate and a region without a pw so it gives them a chance to essentially continue an invasion they should have lost.


Thoughts on this would be appreciated.

wehn you give a region to someone just because youdeleted a bunch of cheaters you tooare cheating, if your defenders are unable to regroup then that is too bad, .

now had this been the effect of a serial cheater like teh national stalinist then circumstances would be different.

Well I don't see how it is cheating, if the cheating that orginally played out caused a region to switch hands in the first place, the region never should have been lost, so in keeping it as is..isn't that still cheating the natives? Is it really the defenders responsibility to make up the difference because someone on the opposing side cheated?

IMO in offering the region back to the natives, it is setting things straight. It shouldn't be up to the natives to make up for the invaders cheating.
thats my take.

This has been a problem before often.

A region which has gone through a griefing invasion can be quite in chaos. Mods have consistently only opened up regions for natives to return. I do not recall them ever moving ejected natives back, or even password the place to let the prior natives get organized again in relative peace.

I have however seen Mods make one of their puppets a temporary founder (this tends to do wonders in repelling further invasions :) ), so the region can stay there for a while with Regional Controls turned off giving natives an opportunity to overcome the damage done to the region. This course of action might be appropriate here too.

Moving ejected natives back is something that could be done, but there's an issue with that too: idle nations tend to influence the election of a delegate by having endorsements in various places. Depending on the exact situation this could either hurt or help the previous delegate getting back in power. But it'll likely damage the internal balance of power anyway as others may have lost endorsements in the process too. (depending on who got ejected when and whether they moved around afterwards) There seems to be unfairness either way, as the damage done by the rulebreaker cannot be undone 100%.

I do think it might make region griefing more futile if some or all natives were to be moved back as a mod action. I know, more work for the mods, but seeing how I've heard griefers boast that they 'destroyed such and such region', having the region be restored (at least partially) might actually be a reason for them not to bother doing it in the first place. Then again, maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, expecting rational thought to take place where there is none.

Ballotonia

Well I got the results this morning, the invaders still hold the top spot.

I don't know if its really the mods responsibilty to fix this or not, but it really does bug me. Not a single native endorses this inactive delegate. Almost all who endorse him came during the open region period after the cheaters were taken care of by the mods.

Without Control that should have been ours we were not able to keep out additional invaders. I know there is a debate we had the extra time too, but in defending a region like this there is a time factor that plays in to the equation. They didn't have the endorsements originally to take over without cheating, next day we should have had control of the delegates spot to help control the region thereafter, but instead we held no power and had no power to keep additional invaders out..they just got enough votes to squeak by essentially still benefitting from the cheating in a different way, being allowed more time.

I wonder, if a way to fix this issue would be to set one of us up as a founder, the region does not have one, while its not a perfect fix I think its more fair than allowing them to continue to reap the awards of unfair play. If this is satisfactory The New Fuhrer has our support for the spot.

WE would really appreciate mods thoughts on this and mod action, if possible.

The simplest way to prevent an invasion is too either
a) password protect the region; but that stops new members altogether.

or

b) my favourite removing Delegate powers in regional control; this means the founder can only alter the region and it might frustrate some delegates but in the long run it's for the best.

Regarrding this issue... The region RE Lee speaks of is
NAZI EUROPE

My full thoughts about this issue can be viewed on another thread --

<nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3177642>

Posting by RE Lee and anybody else is welcome to post there.

Though me and RE Lee are on opposite sides we both appear to agree on the following --

1) That the moderators took just action in deating Sargent Tom iii, for NS rule violations

2) That the moderators ejected three allied nations of Sargent Tom iii from the UN for being UN multis

3) The acknowledgement that time remained in the wake of points one and two for any nations inside and outside of NAZI EUROPE to have confederated and claimed the UN delegate spot.


Almost a full day existed from the time of the moderators' action in NE until I entered the region and united with Satans Angels and War-is-Good to claim the UN delegacy. The region did not have (and to this point still does not have) password protection. Whether you call it "Invading" or "waltzing in" (RE Lee's and my terms respectively) such action is not illegal under NS rules)

When War-is-Good gained the spot, it was almost another full day before SA and me were able to attract just one other NS player to hold onto to it through Sunday May 17th.

Throughout all this time up until this posting NO natives or "invaders" have been ejected. The aggrieved professed Nazis have larely left on their own accord.

It needs to be noted that NAZI EUROPE has long held a combination of NS rule abiders and rule breakers. The moderators acted justly and thoroughly enough to allow the remaining non-rule breaking nations in NS to resume play.

Me and Satans Angels gambled that by endorsing LV_421 comrade War-is-Good we could uphold its charming and pleasing World Factbook Entry declaring that Nazism would not be tolerated and that all were welcome. Our gamble appears to have worked thus far.

Might this be the only case of a sleeping ( :lol: -- my conjecture here!)
UN delegate that could not be overcome in NS? Me and SA further did not and have not / will not seek the UN delegate spot. Rather our point was to justly and by NS rules deprive the professed Nazis in NE a revered haven.

RE Lee has made the point worth talking about that if we stay on in NE we venerate the regional stronghold of the Nazis in NS. Please view the thread above I mentioned for much more interaction here.

In closing, what I believe is the moderators did they jobs fully --
They returned the region to its original state -- one that was up for grabs by any legal player in NS.

RE Lee -- in all honesty would you be complaining about this if you / and/or professed Nazis and allies gained UN delegate control?

Would I be complaing if we had the delegates spot? no because it would have resolved itself, the issue is afterall the delegates position was not given to the true winner during the original invasion because of Toms cheating.

Now does that mean if we had won that everything that happened in between was ok? no it still wouldn't have been right merely that the major issue would be resolved.

I am not complaing about region crashing, that is part of the game. But there is more to it. You say the mods acted fully. How can that be? Tom's cheating among other things was using multis to gain control of the region. He was deleted, but the region was left without a delegate and a pw allowing more region crashers nonstopped access.

Nazi Cuba, now gone, would have been elected Delegate had Tom not cheated. Acting fully would have been placing Nazi cuba as delegate and allowing him to attack the additional region crashers up front from the position that he had legitimately won, a proper defense imo. Or even the mods kicking out the remaining invaders and pw the region to allow the region to recover. I think that is the most fair way to handle a region taken by cheating.

That is the argument, the complaint, I think its fair to say I am right in saying this event was not fully fixed, the Nazi Europe natives cheated. Even if the mods do nothing about this issue I would like their thoughts on the events and the thinking behind allowing the affects of a cheater to continue even if the cheater himself is gone.

I mean no disrespect to the mods, I am honestly interested in this issue.

Would I be complaing if we had the delegates spot? no because it would have resolved itself, the issue is afterall the delegates position was not given to the true winner during the original invasion because of Toms cheating.

Now does that mean if we had won that everything that happened in between was ok? no it still wouldn't have been right merely that the major issue would be resolved.

I am not complaing about region crashing, that is part of the game. But there is more to it. You say the mods acted fully. How can that be? Tom's cheating among other things was using multis to gain control of the region. He was deleted, but the region was left without a delegate and a pw allowing more region crashers nonstopped access.

Nazi Cuba, now gone, would have been elected Delegate had Tom not cheated. Acting fully would have been placing Nazi cuba as delegate and allowing him to attack the additional region crashers up front from the position that he had legitimately won, a proper defense imo. Or even the mods kicking out the remaining invaders and pw the region to allow the region to recover. I think that is the most fair way to handle a region taken by cheating.

That is the argument, the complaint, I think its fair to say I am right in saying this event was not fully fixed, the Nazi Europe natives cheated. Even if the mods do nothing about this issue I would like their thoughts on the events and the thinking behind allowing the affects of a cheater to continue even if the cheater himself is gone.

I mean no disrespect to the mods, I am honestly interested in this issue.

Let's open with that I agree RE Lee means no disrespect for the moderators. I concur on this point.

Both Sargent Tom iii and Nazi cuba violated the rules. Consequences have occurred. It's like in real non-NS life when folks disappear out of a situation. Other things change. A vacuum opens.

It would be different if there were not already present UN nations within NE that could've acted to seize control. Indeed, one did (Satans Angels). Like Nazi Cuba calling in for reinforcements, The Isle of Orleans arrived in support of SA and the ideals of LV_421 and its amazing World Factbook Entry.

SA and Orleans supported a known LV_421 native known as War-is-Good. Too bad you guys didn't eject him sooner. You could have and done so under NS rules. Given War-is-Good's layabout nature, I trust he wouldn't have even known about it :lol:

I too would love to hear from the Moderators. It needs to be noted though that the mods I'm sure have had their hands full with the life of NE. It is hoped that NE's current holders will ease the Moderators workload and cease the region's existence.

As you can view from reading this and other forums plus NE's even better World Factbook Entry and stewartship under the care of Dr. Richardutopia, it'll only be a matter of time before NE becomes the blackhole of professed and wannabe Nazis in NS.

As our guide, we look foremost to War-is-Good. :wink:

"SA and Orleans supported a known LV_421 native known as War-is-Good. Too bad you guys didn't eject him sooner. You could have and done so under NS rules. Given War-is-Good's layabout nature, I trust he wouldn't have even known about it"


WE could not eject him because tom cheated and had the region controls....you have pointed out R E Lee's very argument and said exactly what would have been done and see how it would have changed things. We should have ejected him and would have, but since we were cheated we COULDN'T.

You have to remember all of us found out about Toms cheat later, thats why some of us were out of region. We were regrouping under the impression we had been legitimately defeated. It was mentioned how few votes it took to hold the region longer for the more support for the invaders.. the Tom effect is felt here too since it took time for Toms cheat to get around to everyone we couldn't get enough people in to take the delegates position back that we should have already had. Hence the floodgates are opened and in comes more region crashers...there was no way to defend against that once we were cheated. Yes we could both call for allies but the invaders still have an advantage here.

I have ended this discussion in NE, but since you basically made R E Lee's point within your response I couldn't ignore it. The cheaters were dealt with but the cheat never was The Region was taken by a cheater the true victor was never given the region it was simply left open and naked. Everything that happened from Tom's deletion on should never have been allowed imo. INvaders have numbers, defenders have the region, The defenders were robbed of there strength, the region..the invaders were given time to gather more numbers and entrance into an open region. Advantage invaders. It doesn't get more clear than that. No Balance was achieved by deleting the cheaters alone, not when the control of the region had been affected.

Whew!

The moderators have proved once again they are true to their very meaning -- "Moderators".

Note the posting in NAZI EUROPE Civil HQ just over one hour ago, by NS Moderators:

INVADER DELEGATES MUST GIVE OUT THE PASSWORD TO ALL NATIVES, NO MATTER WHAT (capital letter emphasis theirs)

Obviously, Richardutopia had password protected (pwp) the region once he became the UN delegate. From what I understand of the situation (Moderators or others so knowledgable and not a party to the outcome jump in :wink: ) Richardutopia did not release pwp soon enough, nor did he share it with the original natives.

I think in all honesty only the moderators know who were the "natives" of this VERY chaotic region. Or do they? ; I

When I seized the moment a few days ago and, sizing up the situation in NE after the deating of Sargent Tom iii, I conferred with one "native" and we both endorsed the other.

Indeed, that "native", War-is-Good, is still present. So is a bunch of other UN member nations the moderators determined were not cheating in anyway. They include nations of all persuasions and orientations.

Gosh I love this game. Great work moderators!
And thoughtful questions and comments all of you, whether we agree or not.

8) The Abita Beer Drinking Emir of The Isle of Orleans

As further evidence of the Moderators fair work --

see the following regions besides NAZI EUROPE:

Imperial Europe
SS NAZI EUROPE

This NS game has been quite an education! :D

To be honest I think the mods really can't do much for the Tom's situation it was a fix that needed doing right then when they deleted him.


I will ask you out right. forget about War is good for a Moment.

Do you believe what Tom and then Richard did was right, being multi's refusing to give out pw?

If the answer is no, take your mind off this being a Nazi region for a moment. Yes there were legitimate invaders but the ones that did the most damage and defeated our delegate twice (richard using War is good then getting himself installed) was from cheating. Is it right that cheats have been allowed to affect a region in such a way?

The mods have overall done a good, fair job, Its the leaving the region open and not installing the legitimate delegate after the first cheat, this part I was not fond of But it predates you Orleans.

Your allies have taken alot of hits two deletions of un nations many un ejections, most of what we are taking is apparently puppet nations being removed connected to an earlier event. One Un Nation lost overall. 3 region in distress, but that is traced back to Tom.

:(
I see that native of NAZI EUROPE Satans Angels was not able to enter, lacking the password.

All indeed is not what it seems.
Tomorrow is another day in this ffabulous world called Nationstates :wink:

-- The Emir of The Island of Orleans