NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm creating this thread in response to Myrth's recently becoming a mod and the following post by Stephistan in “The Greatest Perversion of History” thread:

“The best and biggest scam ever pulled on mankind was God.. Oh, there is a really good quote I could put here.. to late to go looking for it.

If you go wayyyy back to the history of how it all came to be.. it's such obvious b*ullsh*t..lol but people still believe.. maybe another hundred years when we're all dead people will be as smart as I had hoped they would be by now.. *Shrug*.. that's my $0.02”

This is the latest in a line of contemptuous anti-Christian and anti-conservative posts by this particular moderator that I’ve noted.

I'm sure this question has been asked many times before but in my time posting I do notice there is a certain liberal bias regarding the opinions of moderators as stated. They may not even notice it themselves as liberalism has a tendency to believe in its own inherent superiority and seems to me, at least, to disregard the opinions of Christian/Conservative types, who seem to be viewed at best as misguided children or at worst as evil.

I have no evidence to suggest that nations are targeted by moderators for censure and/or deletion based upon perceived "right-wing" tendencies but it would be nice if every now and again a mod expressed something that wasn’t exclusively liberal. They may do it, but I haven't seen much of it. In other words, perhaps the selection procedure could be a little more inclusive. Perhaps the powers-that-be would decide to elevate to mod status a few more conservatives. There must be some long-standing nations who are likely candidates, surely? At the moment, it's a little like the American college system, where only liberals are given tenure by other liberals.

I think Neut's occasional rattling of his quiver of lightening bolts indicates certain illiberal tendencies.

Maybe there is a liberal bias in personal belief amongst the Mods, maybe there isn't. Does it matter?

As long as they play fair and DEAT justly, I'm cool with debating them.

Stephistan puts up some pretty good arguments sometimes. Although, if I do say so myself, some of the things she says do offend me, or at least hurt my feelings... but of course, no one cares :)

As long as they play fair and DEAT justly, I'm cool with debating them.

Stephistan puts up some pretty good arguments sometimes. Although, if I do say so myself, some of the things she says do offend me, or at least hurt my feelings... but of course, no one cares :)

Raysian Military Tech: As I recall, you were issued a two-week forumban for monkeying around with the forum BB code. Get off of the forums now or face deletion.

Democratic Nationality: Political philosophy is not a factor in Moderator appointments are we are not going to introduce it as a factor in future Moderator appointments. Additionally, no Moderator action has ever been taken because of a political bias.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

Perhaps the powers-that-be would decide to elevate to mod status a few more conservatives. There must be some long-standing nations who are likely candidates, surely? At the moment, it's a little like the American college system, where only liberals are given tenure by other liberals.

You mean like me?

I think Neut's occasional rattling of his quiver of lightening bolts indicates certain illiberal tendencies.

Maybe there is a liberal bias in personal belief amongst the Mods, maybe there isn't. Does it matter?

Liberal?

Um, I'm conservative...

Most of the world is liberal now, its no surprise that that bias spreads to this forum. Nevrmind the fact that most of these comunist "utopias" on this site cannot actually exist in reality. But this is a game afterall isnt it.
As if you cant tell, I'm right wing moderate/conservative

I'm creating this thread in response to Myrth's recently becoming a mod

If the other mods thought I'd let my politics affect my moderator judgement, I wouldn't be a moderator right now.

Yeah, Steph is certainly a liberal, and disagree with her views concerning religion, but she's also a d*mn good Mod. Are there more liberal Mods than conservative? I don't know for sure. As long as one of them doesn't take Moderator action against someone because of their liberal/conservative political views, I don't really care.

Yes, I'm a liberal, I freely admit that. I can't and won't change who I am. That's life. I believe what I believe. However, like any job one might have in real life I follow my job description. I'd like to think I have a good work ethic and don't let my own personal opinions get in the way of how I moderate. I have deleted many liberal nations and warned them just as much as I have conservative ones.

I have no control over what other people do. If it happens to be a conservative who is baiting or flaming or trolling.. me being a liberal has nothing to do with it. Same as if a liberal nation breaks the rules, again, me being a liberal has nothing to do with that.

I debate with many conservatives who have never had so much as a caution from me. The ones that have is because of their behaviour, not because I'm a liberal I assure you.

No matter who is picked to moderate they are going to come with their own personal opinions in life. That doesn't mean they will moderate according to those opinions. The moderators don't make the rules, we only enforce them. I don't warn or delete any one for any thing that is not pre-existing in the rules, nor would I.

You can't expect every one to have the same political views as you, but you can expect to be treated fairly.. and I do my best to treat every one fairly. No one can ever claim I deleted them because of their political/religious beliefs.

I hope this clears up any concern some may have regarding my personal view .vs my moderating duties. They are two separate things. My personal political and or religious view do not reflect Nationstates, only myself.

Monkeying?!??

The Moderation team contains pretty much every political belief from socialism to neo-conservatism, and there are as many on the right as on the left. We are in actual fact a pretty inclusive lot, and are a meritocracy rather than the liberal mafia many people seem to accuse us of being. A change in selection procedures aimed at recruiting more conservatives to the team would in effect be recreating a political version of the same positive racial discrimination that many of you spend so much time attacking in the General Forum. You ask for selection purely on merit in college admissions, this is exactly what you have here.

Further, Democratic Nationality states that "It would be nice if every now and again a mod expressed something that wasn’t exclusively liberal. They may do it, but I haven't seen much of it." The thing is, an individual may choose to post their sincere beliefs on an issue, or not post anything at all. What you see is inevitably the aggregate outcome of such (free) choices. You cannot force people to post something which does not fairly represent their true opinion on an issue, and you cannot force someone to post their opinion if they do not wish to do so.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

*Generally dislikes politicians in general. It saves time.*

I think Neut's occasional rattling of his quiver of lightening bolts indicates certain illiberal tendencies...

Liberal?
Um, I'm conservative...
bold added
edited once by Pentastar for messing up bbcode

And this is why I don't share my political beliefs around here- I don't feel like argueing it with folks, and I'd probably manage to piss off the entire political spectrum with my opinions :mrgreen:

That, and political beliefs have absolute no impact on, say, Liberal Nation 1 flaming, or Conversative Nation 2 flaming, or Satan-worshipping Nazi 3 flaming =p They flame, they all get the same warning, regardless of where their views stand in comparison to mine 8)

And getting yer wisdom teeth pulled absolutely, positively SUCKS. T_T

http://rpstudios.ian-justman.com/junk/CGgoods/RepProdtheModsig2.JPG
~Evil Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~Master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

I have never seen a moderation staff member influenced by politics, how-ever, there are these things called game rules / mechanics, some of you might have heard of them, now, when you cross those things,

[ Jagged forks of lightening flash across back-ground ]

And quite rightly too, one thinks.

Nuff said, :wink:

- The Rep of Komokom, RMoS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, not to belittle anyone's complaints, nor the Mods beliefs, why do we care? I mean, I couldn't care less what someone's beliefs are. I'd love to argue with them, discuss their beliefs, questions the sincerity, and thoughtfulness of those beliefs but I sure as heck can't get mad at someone for HAVING beliefs. In fact, I'd be more upset if someone doens't have beliefs or opinions.

Let the Mods express their opinions. As long as a Mod keeps their personal (RPing/nation) away from their Mod duties, who cares? I mean, I might be a bit upset if some Mod didn't like leftists, and then deleted them all (I'd be quite upset, being of a left-wing persuasion myself), but nothing close to anything resembling a flitter of a dream of a thought of something like that has ever happened.

Yeah, some of the mods are liberal. Some are conservative. All do the best jobs they can.

I think what may be causing a perception of bias is Stephistan's apparent tendency to get involved in political threads. The other mods don't seem to be quite as outspoken or vocal, probably reflecting Stephistan's elevation from the general forums to modship. As such, there is a perception that the mods will be more inclined towards liberalism, where no such perception exists. Now, I can recall a few instances in which Stephistan was involved in a thread and was flamed, and the offender was deleted, but despite the oddness inherent in such a situation, the offenders were actually flaming said mod. Were Stephistan a conservative, and were she flamed by a hyper-liberal trying to get a reaction, I have absolutely no doubt that the result would have been the same.

I'd also point out that the NationStates forums have a higher-than-average percentage of far-right American conservatives, who tend to be disproportionately vocal. At present in American political thought, many conservatives have, due to complex events dating back to the Watergate scandal, come to believe that there is a liberal conspiracy behind every corner. That was the stated goal behind the founding of Fox News: to create a counterweight to the "liberal" media.

I've also noticed that many complaints come from conservatives and neo-conservatives (and their international counterparts, the nationalists) who want their opposition to be muzzled. For ideological reasons, many conservatives feel that opposition speech should be muzzled. Not all conservatives, mind you, but in the Dinesh D'Souza era such thought appears to be prevalent in the right wing. When the mods refuse to muzzle speech without a real basis for such action other than the fact that the complainant doesn't like the speech, the reaction is then to condemn the mods for holding opposite views. This contributes to the "mods=liberal" groupthink that has gained such unnecessary credibility on these forums.

To sum up, I feel that the current situation in which forumites see an alleged liberal bias in moderators' actions is a combination of societal reasons (which, at another time, I would gladly trace back to the coverage of the Watergate scandal), certain elements of modern political thought, and conditions unique to the history of some of the mods and the particular conditions of this forum. Were the specific history of this forum slightly different, I have little doubt that The Red Arrow and other such liberal presences would be complaining about a conservative bias.

One thing that I noticed in the OP that needs addressing:

"I'm sure this question has been asked many times before but in my time posting I do notice there is a certain liberal bias regarding the opinions of moderators as stated. They may not even notice it themselves as liberalism has a tendency to believe in its own inherent superiority and seems to me, at least, to disregard the opinions of Christian/Conservative types, who seem to be viewed at best as misguided children or at worst as evil."

And Christian conservatism doesn't have a tendency to believe in its own inherent superiority? Read some Dinesh D'Souza, or just watch Fox News a bit; maybe even read your own posts. You'll see the same tendency. Inferiority and superiority complexes are inherent to all ideologies.

The Moderation team contains pretty much every political belief from socialism to neo-conservatism, and there are as many on the right as on the left. We are in actual fact a pretty inclusive lot, and are a meritocracy rather than the liberal mafia many people seem to accuse us of being. A change in selection procedures aimed at recruiting more conservatives to the team would in effect be recreating a political version of the same positive racial discrimination that many of you spend so much time attacking in the General Forum. You ask for selection purely on merit in college admissions, this is exactly what you have here.

Further, Democratic Nationality states that "It would be nice if every now and again a mod expressed something that wasn’t exclusively liberal. They may do it, but I haven't seen much of it." The thing is, an individual may choose to post their sincere beliefs on an issue, or not post anything at all. What you see is inevitably the aggregate outcome of such (free) choices. You cannot force people to post something which does not fairly represent their true opinion on an issue, and you cannot force someone to post their opinion if they do not wish to do so.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

it has RPers, Techies, Generalites, Watchers, Defenders, Invaders, ??
WHoops, no no invaders, goman nasai, my mistake.

Here's my 0.02 on this thread.

Political bias' or not, the moderators are here to do a job, and if someone thinks they are using their personal ideas and ideals to do their job on NationStates so be it.

Does it really matter? They are the ones who have to live with it, they are the ones who have to deal with it, and they are the ones that have to answer for it if they are caught doing it.

It doesn't matter what political beliefs the mods hold. They do a good job for a forum this size, and just because people come to this game thinking they are holier-than-though and then throw the moderators political thinking into the fold when actions are taken against them in a negative manner.

Perhaps, instead of whining about how Stephistan is this or Tactical Grace is that, share views, debate conjectures, and learn something from one another.

I noticed that the mods are almost entirely RPers, and Generalites.

kinda disturbing to see so much of one group having so much power.

And Christian conservatism doesn't have a tendency to believe in its own inherent superiority? Read some Dinesh D'Souza, or just watch Fox News a bit; maybe even read your own posts. You'll see the same tendency. Inferiority and superiority complexes are inherent to all ideologies.

Maybe it does, unfortunately conservatism, despite a so-called conservative president, is not the dominant force in American culture; liberalism is, all conservatives know that. Liberalism is entrenched in academia, much of the judicial system, and most of the media. Social liberalism that is. There's little that can be done at present, except wait for a better future.

And regarding my politics as expressed in my posts, that wasn't the issue -it was the politics of the moderators I was addressing. They have responded here to my concerns.

Regarding Dinesh, I don't think he's a doctrinaire conservative. I've read much of his stuff in NR and he argues conservatism very rationally and reasonably. He's not a zealot. As for Fox, it's a useful balance to the others. Do you want all of television news to be socially liberal?

I noticed that the mods are almost entirely RPers, and Generalites.

kinda disturbing to see so much of one group having so much power.

With all due respect, I cannot see why that's relevant, let alone disturbing. From where I sit, the rules are the rules and are the same for everyone regardless of which forum or aspect of gameplay they embrace. Surely you're not suggesting that, for example, an "invader mod" would enforce different rules or the existing ones differently? If so, that would hardly speak well of that person's objectivity, would it?

Best,
Hatch

I noticed that the mods are almost entirely RPers, and Generalites.

kinda disturbing to see so much of one group having so much power.

With all due respect, I cannot see why that's relevant, let alone disturbing. From where I sit, the rules are the rules and are the same for everyone regardless of which forum or aspect of gameplay they embrace. Surely you're not suggesting that, for example, an "invader mod" would enforce different rules or the existing ones differently? If so, that would hardly speak well of that person's objectivity, would it?

Best,
Hatch

Yes, I am, I know that an invader mod at least one chosen from a certain small pile I know of would be able to be completly impartial.

I think Hatchibombitar is trying to say that someone chosen to be a Mod is likely to be impartial regardless of their gameplay, rather then suggesting that ain invader Mod would be less impartial.

Obviously it would not matter where said mod came from or what their interest in the game was. These are Max's rules people.. and granted some given to us by [violet] as well.. but, no matter the mod, if they fell quite short of following the rules, they wouldn't be a mod for very long now would they. Just for the record, I personally didn't come from General. I can from the UN forum.. I had never even left it when I became a mod. I discovered General AFTER I became a mod. I don't RP, thus it's where I reside most of the time. In case no one has noticed, when I first went into General it was a rat race. Moderation had a complaint every minute I swear from General. That has stopped. I have done my best to get General to be a civil forum.. dissent is a good thing.. we surely wouldn't want to debate people who all agreed with us? That would get boring after a while one would think. The truth of the matter is since Tac and I (mostly) have been moderating General.. a lot less complaints get to moderation. So, umm, you're welcome.. LOL :lol:

I noticed that the mods are almost entirely RPers, and Generalites.

kinda disturbing to see so much of one group having so much power.

One of the requirements for Modship relates to the potential canidate's posting history in the forums. Aside from one or two, most invaders do not post much. When they do, it's usually to argue a specific ruling.

Well, lets take a look-see. Mod's nations arranged by seniority. I'm assuming here, seeing that most mods probably have their main nation as their mod one, that their nations are at least vaguely related to their RL beliefs, and that in the cases that isn't true, the discrepancy will be cancelled out. If mods would like to make a comment about their own politics, we could have this list as a referance for the next time someone makes this accusation

Reploid Productions
UN Category: Compulsory Consumerist State

Melkor Unchained
UN Category: Corporate Police State

Neutered Sputniks
UN Category: Iron Fist Consumerists

Scolopendra
UN Category: Corporate Bordello

Enodia
UN Category: Democratic Socialists

Menelmecar
<Nation not found>

The Most Glorious Hack
Capatilizt

Karmabaijan
UN Category: Left-Leaning College State

GMC Military Arms
UN Category: Father Knows Best State

Stephistan
UN Category: Left-Leaning College State

Cogitation
UN Category: Left-Leaning College State

Sirocco
UN Category: Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

TJHairball
<Nation not found>

Tactical Grace
UN Category: Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Myrth
UN Category: Compulsory Consumerist State


There seems to be a vauge trend for the older mods to be more right wing, with the newer ones being leftist or centrist. On balence, there seems to be little in it, possibly slightly more left leaning overall, but given that that is true of most of this site as well, thats not that surprising

<will post the political map thing when I get home and have the URL>

Menelmacar
UN Category: Capitalist Paradise

Tahar Joblis
UN Category: Left-Leaning College State

---

For what it's worth, I also have:

Anarchy (5)
Father Knows Best State (4)
Psychotic Dictatorship (3)
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy (2)
Coporate Police State (2)
Tyranny by Majority
Benevolent Dictatorship
Iron Fist Socialist
Capitalist Paradise
Free-Market Paradise
Compulsory Consumerist State

---

However, it's worth noting that most of us "older" mods are also RP'ers, and thus our nation is affected by more than just our personal politics.

Note that my nation just represents a year or so of me beefing up my economy and military so I can pwn everyone in the UN rankings :wink:

I'm a socialist, ya see.

Menelmacar
UN Category: Capitalist ParadiseI copy and pasted off the sticky. That ought to be fixed maybe.

Menelmacar
UN Category: Capitalist ParadiseI copy and pasted off the sticky. That ought to be fixed maybe.

Done :mrgreen:

Just for the record, I've played my nation to keep my frightening economy and minimize political and personal freedoms.

Just for the record, I've played my nation to keep my frightening economy and minimize political and personal freedoms.

And it used to have possibly the best pretitle ever, which I think is rather applicable right now....