NationStates Jolt Archive

Do any mods remember when Sephirus, I think, was warned for trying to impose his extreme science and math regulations for tech levels on others?

Regardless, this atrocity is occuring once more. Over and over again, the nation called Wazzu shows up where he (just assuming..but for the sake of simplicity) continuously attempts to impose his method of playing nationstates on everyone who doesn't play his way.

Now, here are many ways to play NationStates, I am told. There are the non-RPers who do things like Regional Takeovers, or who are active in the UN, or those who simply answer issues day after day. Then there are the RPers, who roleplay in dozens of different genres and styles. From fantasy, character-oriented roleplays to modern day, stat-run stories, there are rarely two RPs that are the same, barring sequals and the such.

However, if every RP is not written like a science text book, Wazzu assumes that it is his place to tell the original writers that they are wrong. Also, when someone offers advice contrasting to his own, he begins ranting and flaming without having any background knowledge. (like telling someone their RP's suck without ever reading one, and admitting to never reading one.)

For a while I have seen this happen, but recently it hit home, as he threw insults at me for doing exactly what I said in the paragraph above: giving a nation who asked for advice, advice contrary to his "lawful" word. His flaming and spam take the fun away from others playing the game.

His old age does not give him immunity from the rules and courteous customs of this site and board. Others who flame and spam are dealt with, and I am requesting that he is as well, even if it is just a simple warning.

I've heard similiar complaints. Could you link some examples?

If you want to keep some level of respect, then it is best not to go over 500 combat ships total, and none over 1km long. Thats combat ships, not support ship (refuelers/tankers, supply ships, tenders, hospital ships, etc.).

Personally, I make due with fewer then 100 combat ships between 30 and 350 meters in length (nothing larger)...but then, my nation is rather extreme in it's preference in quality over quantity.

If your going to make a fleet, then there are some basic things you want to consider.

1: What is the fleet going to do? Dreadnaughts are not too useful for escorting merchant ships, and frigates aren't that great for orbital invasion. Designing your ships as well as your fleets to do specific missions (and not others) is both more realistic, and makes them better able to fullfill their roles.

2: What are the technologies involved? I suggest picking 1-3 (if you want GREAT technologies), or 4-6 (if you want ships average in most areas), or up to 10 (if you like cardboard). The fewer technologies you choose, the more flavor your ships have. Example: Menelmacari Gravships concentrate on gravitic (obviously) and plasma technologies.

3: What are the limits? Limits are what define our nations, vehicles, and characters. What fun is a ship that can do everything instantly? Give your characters hurdles to overcome. Make your ships unique. Make sure you have limits.

4: What do you consider godmoding? Is a nanotech repairing hull godmoding? Tactical FTL? Phasers, grasors, farrad systems, and other non-real-life weapons? Ask yourself where you draw the line, and don't cross it.

5: How much physics do you know? If you don't know much, then forget putting in absolute speeds, power levels, hull plating, etc. Example: Siri has NEVER said how fast her gravships are in space, nor how much damage her plasma weapons do. This has kept her safe from physics nerds such as myself. -- On the other hand, if you know a fair amount of physics, and your willing to do the calculations and the research, go ahead and base your ships on real-world stuff (only ocassionally bending or breaking rules/laws).

Hope all that helps!

-The Cardboard Avenger

In this thread: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133138&highlight=

I don't really see anything objectionable...

but this:

AO, think of it this way. You have all basic ship systems. You also have 5 billion dollers to invest in R&D to make your technology better.

You can split it between plasma, lasers, particle beams, ion cannons, rail/gauss guns, gravitic-wank, nanobots, hull, shields, engines, powerplants, etc. etc. etc.

Or, you can pick just two.

Now, which will be better? The technology that you spent 500,000 on? Or the technology that you spent 2.5 billion on?

Having the best of everything is what every cardboard nation does. It is boring, unrealistic, and stupid. ICly, my nation takes it as if they spent that 5 billion on propaganda rather then R&D.

Pick a few and give your ships and fleets some character, some personality, some flavor, while giving your characters limits.

Afterall, you don't grow as a person unless you have obsticles to overcome.

And this is the clincher, really:

Klonor and Steel aren't exactly major powers...more like major 3rd-world nations.

Of course, they would debate that, but most respected people in NS that actually role-play (rather then just dream up uberships they think are better then all the rest) wouldn't.

((Come to think of it, I think he said the same about me when I nationalised all production))

Then we have:

Actually, it proves I got a grade in physics (whereas most people haven't any education in the area).

And I say you don't RP because I don't call Ravism or Bisonism or Mishakalism "Role-Play."

If you want to see some of my RP, do a simple search for "Wazzu." I've a lot of character-oriented RP on the NS forums. I also have some on the Mars forums and used to play quite a bit on the Lodoss boards (as Jynx).

And no Steel, you are neither a great nation, nor well respected...except perhaps among your fellow godmoders. *notes that Xanthal too has "n00bish" groupies*

I don't claim any such followers or superpower level myself. I just claim overwhelming quality of what I do have because I invest signifigant resources and RP time (NOT storefront threads, actual RP time) into a smaller amount of imaginary junk...

...and I flame those who I deserve need a good grilling...namely those who claim ultimate "futuretech" (read: "magictech godmodery") and "best nation/biggest superpower" status.

As such, when someone like Atlantian Outcasts comes along and wants guidence, I try to pursuade them to stay away from the script-kiddie type "uberwank" of nations of your ilk.

To be fair, SB did post:

That actually roleplay? LMAO...good lord. Check the archives, my good man, or...ask around. Obviously we haven't RPed together before...

but to call me a 3rd world nation who doesn't roleplay...wow...you know nothing at all.

You talk of the "most respected people in NS." Wazzu you're talking to one now. As for you, and not as an insult, but all that I've heard of you is your nazism regarding technology. That's not roleplaying, that's just proving you got a good grade in math and science.

As a Fellow NationStates Role Player, I am given right to place my takes on situations WITHOUT having them precieved as suggestions and/or demands, hence I shall now say the following:

Steel Butterfly is, as I have seen, an individual whom takes honor and respect, perhaps even pride, in his/her way of Role Playing, in his/her many styles of Role Playing, and his/her ability to activly and correctly explain an action, situation, twist, back-up, or any of many RP or Non-RP Posts. I see Steel Butterfly as an individual whom does know what he/she is doing and takes knowledge in the fact that he/she is as equal as any Fair Role Player on the NationStates Forum, thus refraining from imposing Role Playing Teachings that are irrelevent to a certian situation, releasing Role Playing Teachings in only Relevent Situations without initiating a "Flame War."

Now, as for Wazzu, if my Fellow Role Player of Steel Butterfly correctly states his age range, it is common to experience Elders freely giving their knowledge of Years of Role Playing to assist a younger Role Player in his/her quest to become as best as he or she can be in the many, or few or one, Universes of Role Playing that pertain in this world, both On-Line and IRL. However, if Steel Butterfly is again correct in his/her conclusion of the actions taken henceforth by Wazzu, what this "Wazzu" does is improper for the Fair and Equal Envirnoment that every Role Playing Community experiences, and should experience.

I have come to the conclusion that Wazzu, if accusations against him/her are correct, by the following Knowledge that I have taken to heart:

1. A Role Playing Community should always have open arms to New Ones, or Newbies, as they arrive and attempt to learn and/or adapt to this either New Universe of Role Playing, or Role Playing in General. Any Fellow Member a certian Community is welcomed to assist new ones in their "quest" to experience this Universe's type of Role Playing to its fullest.

2. All Role Play Members of Role Playing Communities have the RIGHT to Experience that Type, or types, of Role Play in that certian Community with Fun and Happiness, excluding challenging times in which a RPer's view of the type of RP are either corrected or advanced upon to become better.

3. No Fellow Role Player is obligated to force his or her views upon another Fellow Role Player for the soul cause of attempting to seem higher than another Fellow Role Player and/or for the soul cause of attempting to establish himself or herself as the Superior Role Player, which, in terms of Fair Role Playing, only attaches itself to a Role Player that is knowledgable in the arts and ways of a Universe, or many Universes, of Role Playing.

Many more would apply, but I shall stop here at my beliefs, as they are, if not most likely, irrelevent to this issue.

NR, nice speech and everything. But what does it mean for the situation at hand, really?

Oh, and I keep telling people, in NS there are no rights. Only priveleges.

No rights go to ones whom quest to destroy a Fair and Excellent Role Playing Enviroment, only to those who seek to have fun fairly with other Fellow Role Players.

Thanks for the compliment, btw.

Steel Butterfly is a Writer RPer. Almost all of his posts are detailed like a story that a professional writer would write. Wazzu is a Realism RPer. Almost all of Wazzu's posts stress exact realism. He's the kind of person who would want to know exactly how everything works down to the nut and bolt. Steel is strict in his RPs, but only to keep the storyline and writing in it well done. Wazzu is strict to the realism part. I have no problem with either RPer, but I see how their styles clash.

It's just a game everyone. Ignore, and avoid, one another.

Steel Butterfly is a Writer RPer. Almost all of his posts are detailed like a story that a professional writer would write. Wazzu is a Realism RPer. Almost all of Wazzu's posts stress exact realism. He's the kind of person who would want to know exactly how everything works down to the nut and bolt. Steel is strict in his RPs, but only to keep the storyline and writing in it well done. Wazzu is strict to the realism part. I have no problem with either RPer, but I see how their styles clash.

Nanakaland, as I've said, I have no problem with everyone playing this game their own way. It's when they try to enforce and impose their way on others as the "only way" that pisses me off, for lack of a better phrase that shows my true emotion on the subject.

It's just a game everyone. Ignore, and avoid, one another.

As I said to Nanakaland, he won't let himself be ignored.

Oh, and I keep telling people, in NS there are no rights. Only priveleges.

Is it Wazzu's privilege to disrupt the fun of those who don't follow his ways? Surely Max built this site for enjoyment...not for nazi-like rules imposed on others by fellow players.

I've heard similiar complaints. Could you link some examples?

Are you willing to put the search engine back to it's former state? I can't give you too many links, other than the most recent one which fueled this post: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133138 in which I did go a bit out of line in my emotional responses...however not much given the situation.

I do remember incidents involving space elevators, in which Wazzu tried to use both IC and OOC force to "persuade" Slagkattunger into not building the elevator. Why? Because he thought it would destroy the world according to his calculations...and he said that he gives the same nazi-like response to all space elevators (he did the same thing recently)...however he let one of his friends build one because they have "creative liscense". If it was to destroy the world, wouldn't his friends as well?

Anyhow I'm getting off topic. The point is, in any number of Wazzu's posts in any topic other than his, are examples of how he attempts to impose his will and styles of play on others. With the search function enabling keywords, I could easily get you links...however...at this time I'm thinking that you'll have to trust me...and all the other complaints you have gotten and will recieve in the future. Obviously, I am not making this up.

And...as a moderator and administrator in many other forums, NS related and not, I understand that you cannot take action based on opinions of members. However, all I ask for at this time is a warning...something to give him a reason to stop. I would need time to come up with such examples.

Rep, I've provided several examples, all in one thread. If you want, I can go and look for more, though I think a mod might have a better time of it than I would.

Steel, absolutely not.

I don't really have the time to search through all he posts...but here's some recent examples:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2859549
"Those who ignore conservation of energy should be drug out into a street and made to explode into giant, destructive fireballs."

-The Cardboard Avenger

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2829730
Don't get too excited. This just measures the size of your military compared to your population, not the quality of training, equipment, or intelligence of its soldiers.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2826405
OOC: Thats right! Put some mass on it! Make sure you have enough to get 1/10th the acceleration and range while increasing fuel consumption! Sure, you may survive a couple more hits...if you ever get to the battle.

EDIT: "Condense that cardboard!"

-The Cardboard Avenger

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2826405
OOC: There is this little concept in physics called "conservation of energy." Perhaps you've heard of it?

You can add all the "grav tech" and "inertial compensators" you want, but you don't get energy out of nothing.

Fusion (or fission, or anything) only provides so much energy for the amount of fuel you use (based on E=mc^2, where E is gained energy, m is the mass lost in fusion hydrogen into helium, and c is the speed of light). The more massive your ships, the more energy it takes to move them (K = 0.5mv^2, where K is Kinetic Energy, m is your ship mass, and v is velocity).

Of course, those two equations assume 100% efficiency...good luck acheiving anywhere near that (by example, a combustion engine is, IIRC, only about 15-30% efficient at converting chemical/gas energy into motion).

Conservation of energy...VERY important.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2718032
As the man asked, how many protons?

See, the reason your element doesn't work is because each element on the real periodic table has a different number of protons. Each proton weighs just about 1 AMU.

Every possible element from 1 (hydrogen) to 109 (Meitnerium) [and possibly higher now?] is known.

Let me say that again, every possible element from 1 to 109 is known.

Unless you can have half a proton (which you can't), your element is not even possible.



Call it what you want (Nanosoftism) for all you want, but I won't accept it as anything much different from Aluminum (the most likely candidate from your discription).

-The Cardboard Avenger

The main stuff recently is in the thread that Roania provided, although these are all good examples.

Hm. Don't suppose anybody's mentioned this thread to Wazzu so he can defend himself...

I sent a tm, actually.

Thank you Roania.


I am embarrised about that post yesterday...I was played like a flute. Steel conveniently forgot thing both he and I said, twisted my arguements, and showed a lot of hypocracy. But for some reason, he seemed to come out smelling like a rose, hiding insults in text complaining about being insulted.

And now there is this thread. Where yes, there are links to Atlantean Outcasts thread and others...alongside long lists of quotes of me taken out of context. I see I've already been called a Nazi here as well, which I don't appretiate.



Reploid, other mods, and all others reading this; I would encourage you to read the threads involved, not just the quotes here. Please pay close attention to the context of my statements in my posts, and my posts in with others. And when reading AO's thread OOC: upgrading my space fleet (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=133138&highlight=), please pay close attention to Steel's posts as well.

The debate Steel and I had yesterday was heated, and we both made statements I am sure we each regret. But IMO, posting here as if I had done all the wrong, and hiding snips and flames and bait in this topic, in this, the Moderation thread, is crossing the line.



I will restate my intentions one more time here (after doing so many times in AO's thread), so that those here can know it.

------

There are many storefront and national military threads on NS. Many of these show beautiful pictures of spacecraft, and long lines of text in which those who profess not to care about physics use physics termonology to make their ships sound better. That is my personal pet peeve.

But the actual problem isn't the physics. The problem is the stat war.

Every "n00b" (and I don't mean newbie) posts bigger, tougher, faster, more powerful, more advanced, and pick your adjective ship. And they post they have more of them, usually for substantially lower prices.

How is this a problem? It is a problem because people who have been here for a while, who have extensively RPed their nation out, suddenly find themselves "outgunned" (not the quotes) by a stat-war n00b. And it is a problem because new players find that they only way they can stand out is to make a storefront or national military (space or not) thread better then all the others.

Forum readers and IRC goers will recognize the common "Steel Penis" joke.

My constant posts as "The Cardboard Avenger" (a semi-IC/OOC character named from an IRC joke I enjoyed) are aimed at undermining this problem. And yes, I riddicule people for claiming not to care about physics then misusing physics termonology to make themselves sound like the most powerful nation in NS. Thats not RP, thats stat war.


So thats my policy, thats why I call things cardboard (what else can you call a bigger, less expensive "steel penis"), and that is why I post so often. So if I am to get a warning for attempting to limit RP, then I ask that my libelous detractors also get a warning for doing the same.



EDIT: Sorry, I tried not to get wordy. Honest! :P

EDIT2: Clarification. By "libelous detractors", I do not mean people caught in the stat-war, the "cardboard rut", I mean libelous detractors.

Klonor for one sent me a respectful private message asking me not to be insulting (I'm trying Klonor), he did not secretly flame me in the Moderator forum and ask for me to be warned over a twisting of my arguements.

Sorry for getting wordy again.

I appreciate people trying to keep things realistic, and trying to encourage others to keep things realistic, and I've seen the results of ill-considered stat-inflation. However, if it works out for RP purposes - however crazy, physically impossible, etc - and works smoothly, I'd rather it be left alone.

There are times when I have stepped into threads myself to offer advice, even in some cases to the point of rather harsh words about the realistic functioning of some gadget or ship. However, there is little point in getting bogged down into arguments and derailing threads over it.

That said, I'll be looking over all of this carefully; in the mean time, I appreciate if Steel Butterfly and Wazzu take care to remain civil to one another.

Looking over the material referenced, it doesn't look like Wazzu is uniquely guilty of anything here.

However, I do see that the debate has been getting a little out of hand, both in becoming personal and in getting too newbie-unfriendly. So, I offer the following suggestions:

If it works, don't break it.
Try not to derail story lines. If a topic requires extensive debate no more than tangential to the intended, it may be appropriate to move the discussion to TMs or a thread specialized in such matters rather than muck about with an RP in progress to the point of killing it.
By all means, bring up problems with new players, but try to be a bit nicer about it. New players tend to respond poorly to coming in their first day and having everybody stomp all over them with big honking ignore cannons.
Try to set a good example. It's harder than it looks, as most people live in their own blind spots.

I am embarrised about that post yesterday...I was played like a flute. Steel conveniently forgot thing both he and I said, twisted my arguements, and showed a lot of hypocracy. But for some reason, he seemed to come out smelling like a rose, hiding insults in text complaining about being insulted.

:roll: This thread has already become off topic, I see.

Mods or anyone else, I was not complaining about the argument in which both Wazzu and myself got out of hand. I did not "show a lot of hypocracy" as stated, forget things, or twist further any already twisted words, but that's another matter.

I was complaining more about why the insults were flowing in, and not just regarding me. There are many instances of Wazzu's science-forcing or whatever that do not have anything to do with me. The AO incident is merely one small part of the bigger problem.

I encourage the mods to read the threads. By only quoting Wazzu, I was not trying to hide anything (the URLs were posted as well along with the quotes) but instead prove the original point of this thread. If someone wants to complain about my arguement methods or what not, I encourage them and I stand ready to defend myself...but in another topic.

Wazzu seems to think that he is being treated unfairly here, while he unfairly attempts to force others to play as he does. And he calls me a hypocrit.

TJHairball, not to seem rude, but the fact that you, a forum mod, invade other's RP's at times (just going by what you said) does not make it right. You say that Wazzu is not uniquely guilty of anything, yet where have I attempted to force another player to play as I wish in his or her own thread? Once again, this thread is not about an argument.

I believe I have made myself clear to everyone by Steel now.

I do not expect people to work out the physics of everything. I do expect those that say they don't care for physics, not not spam the forums with pseudo-physics stats in an attempt to make themselves look stronger.

I do not understand how that is limiting "RP" or forcing others to play as I do.

------

I also believe it is clear to everyone but Steel that both he and I made regretable mistakes in that arguement. And if a moderator would like me to, I will back up my claims of hypocracy, twisting, and convenient "forgets" with link-backed quotes in the style Steel believes is honest.

TJHairball, not to seem rude, but the fact that you, a forum mod, invade other's RP's at times (just going by what you said) does not make it right. You say that Wazzu is not uniquely guilty of anything, yet where have I attempted to force another player to play as I wish in his or her own thread? Once again, this thread is not about an argument.

Wazzu is not uniquely guilty of anything because he is in broad company in everything he has done that you have complained about. If this thread is not about arguments, then pray tell me what this thread is about.

As I've mentioned above, it is clear that those trying to keep things realistic in the forums have gotten a little too emotional and too destructive of storylines; as I noted above, there are a few things they should keep in mind. Politeness is one of these. Perhaps I should state it more clearly...

OOC flamage doesn't belong in RP threads.

I've looked at the "insulting behavior" that you've linked to; frankly, the only quote that stands out is this one:
Klonor and Steel aren't exactly major powers...more like major 3rd-world nations.

Of course, they would debate that, but most respected people in NS that actually role-play (rather then just dream up uberships they think are better then all the rest) wouldn't.

I do disapprove; that's a rather puerile insult, to boot. However, you've returned like in kind. I'm asking both of you to stop altogether.

I also believe it is clear to everyone but Steel that both he and I made regretable mistakes in that arguement.


Mods or anyone else, I was not complaining about the argument in which both Wazzu and myself got out of hand.

EDIT: I bolded it to be more specific...

If this thread is not about arguments, then pray tell me what this thread is about.

Do any mods remember when Sephirus, I think, was warned for trying to impose his extreme science and math regulations for tech levels on others?

Regardless, this atrocity is occuring once more. Over and over again, the nation called Wazzu shows up where he (just assuming..but for the sake of simplicity) continuously attempts to impose his method of playing nationstates on everyone who doesn't play his way.

EDIT: I bolded it for clarification...

If this thread is not about arguments, then pray tell me what this thread is about.

Do any mods remember when Sephirus, I think, was warned for trying to impose his extreme science and math regulations for tech levels on others?

Regardless, this atrocity is occuring once more. Over and over again, the nation called Wazzu shows up where he (just assuming..but for the sake of simplicity) continuously attempts to impose his method of playing nationstates on everyone who doesn't play his way.

EDIT: I bolded it for clarification...

And I italicized (sp?) it earlier for clarification.

I believe I have made myself clear to everyone by Steel now.

I do not expect people to work out the physics of everything. I do expect those that say they don't care for physics, not not spam the forums with pseudo-physics stats in an attempt to make themselves look stronger.

I do not understand how that is limiting "RP" or forcing others to play as I do.

------

I also believe it is clear to everyone but Steel that both he and I made regretable mistakes in that arguement. And if a moderator would like me to, I will back up my claims of hypocracy, twisting, and convenient "forgets" with link-backed quotes in the style Steel believes is honest.

Note the guidelines I set forth in my second post; I was addressing that topic... which certainly looks like an argument to me.

If it works, don't break it.
Try not to derail story lines. If a topic requires extensive debate no more than tangential to the intended, it may be appropriate to move the discussion to TMs or a thread specialized in such matters rather than muck about with an RP in progress to the point of killing it.
By all means, bring up problems with new players, but try to be a bit nicer about it. New players tend to respond poorly to coming in their first day and having everybody stomp all over them with big honking ignore cannons.
Try to set a good example. It's harder than it looks, as most people live in their own blind spots.

I have no problem with Wazzu trying to get people to be a bit more realistic, so long as he's polite, discreet, and causes minimal disruption in RP threads.

I think, for all concerned, we should be taking the following stance as far as new technologies and ideas go:

Not what won't work, but what might, just might, if you close your eyes and pretend.

In other words, let them have their fun and gently point out the outrageous flaunts of silliness, like a billon exawatt laser, whose beam travels at a dozen times the speed of light and can penetrate most forms of shielding. That's an exagerration, but gently point out that fact.

Wazzu, I think you're great for trying to keep it real..... But please remember our physics and knowledge today is, after all, today's. Please keep in mind what we know now, we might not have imagined a mere fifty years ago. Alright, so things like Star Trek ruin the laws of physics and breaks everything set out by Newton, Einstein and nature. They frequently flaunt physics of the real world with their Treknobabble.

So maybe kids like to emulate that. So long as they don't go too far out of hand, let them. Who knows? Maybe they might be proved right in the future. But please, never say something can't be because it doesn't follow the laws of physics. Only jab at the really big offenders.

(Read the post at the end of page 1 wazzu, if you missed it.)

Now...Wazzu...

Are you serious?

You take a post that was typed in order to prove to TJ what the true nature of this thread is and then respond to it by posting your...expectations? I take things out of context?

Also, regarding your expectations...you can expect all you want, however it is not, and has never been, your job to enforce these expectations of your's. I expect all RP's to be well written, void of huge plotholes, full of engaging characters...and even if you forget the impossibility of having that...I cannot and do not go around trying to make sure that all RPs are to my liking. You cannot do that either.

I have no problem with Wazzu trying to get people to be a bit more realistic, so long as he's polite, discreet, and causes minimal disruption in RP threads.

Alright...but since you do it yourself as you've said, I'd like to hear what the other mods have to say.

EDIT: and the minimal disruption is key...for it rarely does this and usually causes a lot of disruption

Wazzu, I think you're great for trying to keep it real..... But please remember our physics and knowledge today is, after all, today's. Please keep in mind what we know now, we might not have imagined a mere fifty years ago. Alright, so things like Star Trek ruin the laws of physics and breaks everything set out by Newton, Einstein and nature. They frequently flaunt physics of the real world with their Treknobabble.

So maybe kids like to emulate that. So long as they don't go too far out of hand, let them. Who knows? Maybe they might be proved right in the future.

Exactly!

...but even if the physics will never be proven...

RP's are stories...and stories don't have to make sense...especially sci-fi. All that's required is a basis in reality...a basis...

TJ, others, I think I am finished arguing with Steel. There is no point to it.

Adejaani, actually, I don't mind pseudo-tech. I use some myself, play with elvish and alien nations, am allied with a Trek nation, and even recognize magic, psychic powers, ghosts, and other such things.

My pet-peeve is when people who claim to discount physics try to quantify them.

Sunset, said Trek player who I admire very much, and I had a debate of this type long ago. He triggered my peeve by claiming outragiously high power/energy weapons. Eventually, we talked it out. He gave up using physics to describe the power of phasers (a tough thing to do), and I recognized the existance of such a mythical weapon.

I used Menelmacar as an example in AO's thread. Plasma weapons are a great example of a futuristic weapon system that truely would not work (a physics arguement in itself). Why can I stomache Siri's plasma weapons? Because they aren't "billion exawatt" weapons as you put it. They don't inflame the pseudo-physics stat-war, the cardboard rut.

But your right, physics knowledge today is physics knowledge today (and in the US for one, not that good in general). And many (not just kids) like to emulate what we see on TV or read in media. I've taken many of my ideas from books as well (and most are not physics books! :) ). Its tough, but I'll try to keep the jabs light and well aimed.

Thanks for the input.

TJ, others, I think I am finished arguing with Steel. There is no point to it.
hiding insults in text

Wazzu,

I had thought the arguement with you was over before this thread was made, and if it's over now, I only go to bed a happier man.

Everyone else,

However, the argument with the principle is far from over. This is not about heated words exchanged in a thread or Wazzu's personal opinions on what tech or physics or mentality he appreciates.

Should a player be allowed to try and force another player to change the way he or her plays, as long as that way is according to the rules. This would be the difference between ignoring a godmodding n00b, hoping that the n00b will either quit NS or change his or her ways...or going into the thread and posting insults and opinions on how that n00b, or anyone, should play. Both Wazzu's and my stances have been flaunted throughout this whole ordeal.

I'll leave it to the mods to make the correct decision, whatever it may be.

Moderators. I can't speak here without snapy insults and trolling from Steel. If any would like to hear my opinion privately (through message or IRC) I would be more then happy to talk frankly.

If any would like to hear my opinion privately (through message or IRC) I would be more then happy to talk frankly.

Likewise, my door is always open...for whatever it is you Mods feel like saying.

If it works, don't break it.
Try not to derail story lines. If a topic requires extensive debate no more than tangential to the intended, it may be appropriate to move the discussion to TMs or a thread specialized in such matters rather than muck about with an RP in progress to the point of killing it.
By all means, bring up problems with new players, but try to be a bit nicer about it. New players tend to respond poorly to coming in their first day and having everybody stomp all over them with big honking ignore cannons.
Try to set a good example. It's harder than it looks, as most people live in their own blind spots.

Really, nothing much needs to be added to this.

But...

Should a player be allowed to try and force another player to change the way he or her plays, as long as that way is according to the rules. This would be the difference between ignoring a godmodding n00b, hoping that the n00b will either quit NS or change his or her ways...or going into the thread and posting insults and opinions on how that n00b, or anyone, should play.

I don't see it this way. He isn't forcing anybody to do anything. He can't force anything, he's just a player. A long-standing player certainly, but still just a player, he has no power aside from what he types.

When I read his Cardboard Avenger threads, I see someone trying to explain the problem with what someone is doing, much like the Obvious Man character in Wiley's Non Sequitor. I also see his... antics, if you will, as potentially helpful, despite them being mildly acerbic. Personally, I think deconstructing somebody's absurd space fleet is more likely to cause change than fifty one month old nations saying "OMG! YOU ARE SUCH A NOOB! IGNORED!!!", and then hotlinking an image of someone else's DoGa cannon.

If you simply want a player to go away, by all means, ignore them. If you want them to improve, point out the problems with what they're doing. "IGNORE Cannons" don't solve anything, and really seem like little more than a tired old joke, way past its prime.

Really though, TJ's bullet list should be sufficient to end this discussion.

And if that's how you interpret it, then I think that's how it will be.

I know Wazzu, or anyone else for that matter, cannot force a player to do something, and that's why I tried to say things along the line of "attempt to force" or what not, because that's truely what he does.

When I read his Cardboard Avenger threads and what not, I see someone trying to make everything his way. If it is an explanation, it doesn't seem like a constructive one at that. But like I said, it's how we interpret things...and you're a mod...and I'm not.

I didn't mean "ignore" as in "ignore cannons", I meant simply not posting and truely ignoring them.

But TJ and you are correct in the bullets. I'm just wondering what will happen when those bullets are broken, not that they are "law" or anything...

...just there is really no point of having standards if there is neither a reward for meeting them or a punishment for not meeting them.

Moderators. I can't speak here without snapy insults and trolling from Steel. If any would like to hear my opinion privately (through message or IRC) I would be more then happy to talk frankly.

ooc:

Steel openly admits his arrogance, and won't hesitate to belittle people if he thinks it will make himself look good by comparison Wazzu. Take this stuff with a grain of salt.

Did anyone else notice the spelling errors in Wazzu's post? Maybe he is just lying about his age...

Meh, what does a Mutant Dog know?

Please don't kill me!

I... find myself coming down on the side of Wazzu here.
Aside from the brief attacks on those who presume themselves to superpower status and the heated argument between himself and Steel Butterfly, what he has done is explain why the roleplaying community might have reason to ignore the person for their super-ships and posit ways in which the person might avoid such problems.

It seems a more generous method than just ignoring the guy... and its certainly more positive method than posting a big-ass pic of a weapon with the words "IGNOrEDZORR CaNON!!!1" under it.

Ultimately, it is difficult to have fun in an environment where anyone can walk along and say that have forces that are more numerous, bigger, faster, tougher and stronger than mine without having to lift a finger to do so (except for the ones that are typing). Any of the above, I would not deny... but in the modern day, you will find it hard to get an MBT that is better in all ways than another tank of the same generation.

Its all about tradeoffs... tradeoffs between, say, speed and armour can also be used to show the nature of your nation and reflect on the doctrine of their production (i.e. add depth to your nation). Telling people this is good for the RP community, no?

Ultimately, we all know that nobody can force anybody to do their bidding... but surely we can do more than just shun people who need a bit of advice?

Did anyone else notice the spelling errors in Wazzu's post? Maybe he is just lying about his age...

Meh, what does a Mutant Dog know?

Please don't kill me!

OOC: Mutant dogs are smart. Not as smart as chickaroaches mind you, but fairly smart.