NationStates Jolt Archive

I'de like to start off by asking the mods not to close this thread...or if something is not allowed, just edit it. I want to bring up an issue that I believe is causing gameplay to be greatly hindered. I have been playing this game for around a year now, I've seen this game progress to become something Great, but as time has progressed, new problems are emerging. I am not referring to region Griefers, I am refering to increased numbers of corrupt Moderators, and laws that may in many eyes contradict the philosophy of this game.


1--------------------------------------------------------
Today, two active contributers in the region of Kramerica were deleted by a moderator after they contributed in a Kramerican invasion of Alpha Centauri.

Ostella, and Sexybiogoddess were deleted after Ostella, the invading delegate ejected the former delegate from the region, and another nation the following day. At this time, Alpha Centauri had a population around 35 nations.

The only rule I see that they broke, is they failed to unban them. It is not fair that they got deleted for that. A simple warning would have sufficed.
I have witnessed similar situations with other invasions by other regions, where the mods will at least give a prior warning

Because two nations get ejected, the invaders are labeled griefers and deleted? This is unfair and unjust. These are people that have played this game for months, they have spent time to shape their nations and their position in this game. For a moderator to come by and delete someone for such a trivial breach of conduct is unfair.

I ask the moderators to consider allowing Ostella and Sexybiogoddess be re-instated.



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That being said, I wish to debate the issue of region griefing.


I and thousands of others who play this game believe the Moderators and laws against griefing are unfair.

A quote from Goation Intelligence:

"moderator intervention has gotten way out of hand. Part of what is fun about this game is invading and defending, but the mods are sucking the fun out of it. The old definition of griefing was that anything pretty much was OK as long as you didn't shut the region down and leave, or use multi UN nations. Somehow, since then, the moderators have convenienty added rules that never used to exist, further slanting NS against invaders. Now you have to give everybody the password, and practically hold their hand as they call in reinforcements that beat you. You can't ban anybody from the region that you took by force? Give me a break!

Isn't this game supposed to mimic the international politics of the real world? Come on! Do the US Marine Corps have to allow all Iraqi citizens free access to their bases? Where are the "moderators" that intervene and delete George Bush and his whole administration for "breaking the rules"?

There are rules, and yes, they have to be followed, but it would be nice, at the very least, if the mods informed you of them and gave you a chance to comply before they started deleting nations. Freaking ridiculous."

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, I believe it is high time we change the griefing rules.

I believe the laws created against region griefing need to be at leased reformed in such a way that invaders can still invade, and hold a region with the force it should be allowed to have.


I say to all defenders out there:
As you may know invaders are becomming weaker and weaker. Forces such as the GDODAD are now a shadow of the power they once were, they have dissolved because they cant escape violating some kind of rule when they invade.

What are you defenders going to do when there are so few invaders around? Gameplay would be much better for defenders if they had worthy invaders to fight against, and vica versa. Real wars can be faught again if we lobby to change the rules.

War is a fact of life on earth, as it should be in Nationstates. If a nation (person) gets ejected from its home region, then it should fight to return, not get a free ride back by some moderator.

example:
A simple solution may be something like "Invaders may eject only 20% of the native population"..(im being modest with that suggestion, i'de prefer 50%)

So I ask the invaders and the defenders out there to lobby for reform against the rules that surround the griefing issue, and bring back the once mighty battles that are now such a scarce sight.

MAy I just note that it is stated (somewhere) that unbanning any natives = griefing = deletion.

Secondly, I dont see your point about the mods being corrupt. If you're on the forums more often, as a MAr 03 nation, you'd know how many times the moderators have helped out the game and its players.

Thirdly, nations DEATed for rule violations are not reinstated. Common rule.

Fourthly, the GDODAD are an RP organisation, not an invading team.

Fifthly and lastly, name me three instances where mods have been unfair?

The Squeekiest wheel gets the grease,
and the anti invaders are the squeekiest wheels therefore they get all the grease, I jsut wish the invasion rules were set out in writing and enforced equally (both defender invaders and real invaders).
Vapor Rules are kinda Stalinistic .

Cosmo, have you considered that the very best of invaders have escaped any harm (well, moderator harm) for some time? You know, the Farkers, the AA, the NPO(matter of opinion here, I know they're not technically invaders)...

Most invaders, including the Kramericans, just aren't at that same level of quality. Part of skill as an invader is to know where to draw the line in behavior.

Kandarin has a point.
I know some who are the best.

MAy I just note that it is stated (somewhere) that unbanning any natives = griefing = deletion.

Secondly, I dont see your point about the mods being corrupt. If you're on the forums more often, as a MAr 03 nation, you'd know how many times the moderators have helped out the game and its players.

Thirdly, nations DEATed for rule violations are not reinstated. Common rule.

Fourthly, the GDODAD are an RP organisation, not an invading team.

Fifthly and lastly, name me three instances where mods have been unfair?

I never said the mods are corrupt, i said SOME are corrupt.
Also, I said the laws need to be reformed, because as of now they are too stringent and unfair. I believe Sexybiogoddess and Ostella's deletion were unfair, but you may argue otherwise. I believe Francos reign is The Pacific is unfair. The founder of The Roman Empire was deleted..because an invader who griefed a region happened to know his password. But you could argue otherwize...so dont ask me to name three instances. And I believe the laws are unfair. That is also what im arguing

What of the griefing laws, do you think they should be reformed?

Isn't this game supposed to mimic the international politics of the real world? Come on! Do the US Marine Corps have to allow all Iraqi citizens free access to their bases? Where are the "moderators" that intervene and delete George Bush and his whole administration for "breaking the rules"?
I am only a Forum Mod and am not in any way part of this side of rule enforcement, but just to address this one point:

If the rules were like that, the result would be the same as in the real world - a single hegemonic power crushing one area of the world after another. This game is meant to be fun for the majority of players. The real world is a misery for the majority of "players". If this game reflected the injustices of the real world, no-one would bother.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Addendum, I personally believe that part of the problem we currently have with actual griefers is becasue of the vapor rules, perhaps if we had a set of actual written and fairly enforced rules, the Real Invaders and the Defender Invaders as well as the possible griefers would be encouraged to play fair.

Invasion is this games War and well it is unfairly slanted toward the protection of the whiney folks. If you dont want to be invaded turn off Delegate access to the regional controls, if you dont have a founder, well too bad, although I did suggest a while back an option for Invasion and non invasion regions set at creation, Invasion regions would not have founders but would have delegate access to regional controls, and once created in that manner no founder could be appointed, non invader regions would be created like normal, with founders, and possibly the option to create regions like CV 02 where you have to be invited to join and you cannot message folks outside of the region and they cannot be messaged.

Let me explain this way:

There are over 30,000 players on NationStates. Of those 30,000, approximately fewer than 1,000 are invaders, and perhaps 2-3K wish to participate in invasions. Therefore, over 9/10s of the population of this game do not wish to partake in your invasions.

What you play the game for is not what everyone plays the game for, and therefore, the rules are not going to be changed to suit the style of play that you desire.

The rules will not be hard codified for reasons that we've explained before.

and they dont have to be "hard codified rules"

Well new rules can be written that govern this area of the game, that way all invader nations are aware of the them, and will mold to them or be deleted. These rules will only effect those nations who wish to become invaders. Rouge Moderators dishing out punishments without some common guidelines to reference is just as bad as no moderators to govern. If there is guidelines making them public would help to solve this problem. Fairness in this arena of the game is the only solution to this problem.

Quinn the Eskimo got here
*jumps for Joy*

OT: they will remain Vapor rules for the same reason Stalin kept them unwritten.

*You have not seen nothing like the Mighty Quinn*

Anyway, I am aware of the reason for the Vapor rules being unwritten, but does that not adversely effect the legitimacy of the moderators. If there are unwritten rules, whose has the authority to say what they are, or who has the rights to enforce them. If the moderators wish to have any real legitimacy, they will inform the entire game of their rules, that way they are more easily enforced by the mere fact that they are clear and direct.

Most invaders, including the Kramericans, just aren't at that same level of quality. Part of skill as an invader is to know where to draw the line in behavior.

We have only tried to invade 3 regions in our entire history. We have also defended regions, such as Vancouver. Two nations ejected in two days is not grounds for anyone to be deleted. If the laws permit a mod to delete someone for something that trivial, then the laws should be reformed.

My question is this. Is there a rule that specifically states that only banning two nations, and then waiting maybe a day or two before unbanning them is illegal?

I believe that you have to un-ban natives instantly

[i am not a mod]

Ok, I was just asking since I didn't see any rule on the site, unless I missed it?

here ya go (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109397)

Ok, that clears things up, thnx

mods are abusing their power, see this thread where they deleted one of my puppets for basically nothing: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2898324

specifically hack is abusing his power.

mods are abusing their power, see this thread where they deleted one of my puppets for basically nothing: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2898324

So basically nothing == Spamming other people's topics and flaming mods in you book... :roll:

But back to invading:

I was thinking that the password rule which some hate, is kind of realistic. Say each region is a city-state and the password is the city-state's walls. Now if someone attacks the city the native can use the wall to it's full advantage because they are fighting for their country. If an invader takes over the city-state and the inhabitants want to be liberated by a friendly force, resistance leaders knowing their city-state in much greater detail than the invaders can advise the liberators on the best ways to get past the city-states defences. Invaders can kick the counter-invaders in a "battle" still but occupying a hostile area would put you at the disadvantage for securing it, look at Iraq.

Hrm, maybe someone could create an Index of regions that are ok with invasions or are basically battlefields like LUE to help young invaders/defenders (I'm not really that into UN invasions myself but some people seem to like it and they should not be so excluded).

CIA Informant started a thread like this many months ago questioning the lack of clarity of crashing rules after the Neutered Sputniks affair in the Pacific. CIA Informant protested some unfair activities by mods . CIA Informant was shouted down by mods and antis and was deleted after a mod wrote something like "shut up - here's a gavel in your head." Then, CIA Informant was deleted, I believe by Hack. This was after Neut accused me of being "sheol" or "neo sheol," Who i am not. I believe this was abusive treatment.

Afterwards, there are still no answers relating to CIA Informant's questions about legal and illegal crashing activities. Many other nations like Kramerica and 1 Infinite Loop are still raising the same questions, as you see in this thread.

After your due consideration of the unfairness of this treatment, I wish for CIA Informant to be reinstated into the game.

Thank you

CIA Informant 3

I just want to know why SexyBioGodess was deleted when she had no control over banning or unbanning. It was Ostella who became the puppet. She did exactly what I did, went to the region, and endorsed Ostella to get him the region.

I think what people need to understand, and I think most players do not is that there are very sound, democratic and fair philsophical principles underpinning the Mod actions.

The overwhelming majority of players, and I'll be kind, and say 80%, do not wish to participate in invasions of any sort. They want a gaming experience, and they want it in, say, Region X. They should have the freedom to live in Region X, and no matter what, they should never have their nation's existence in Region X threatened. Therefore, the Mods have the rule that one cannot ban natives. This is thus, fair.

So too, if an invader Delegate ejects residents of a region who he is permitted to eject, he must unband them, so that they can return to the state of being they had before, residence in Region X, because that is what they want.

The fact is, a codified set of rules, which is, although helpful in some cases, is unnecessary, because an invader with common sense should ask himself when contemplating every action "Will my actions hurt or unnecessarily affect the gameplay of those nations who do not wish to participate?" Simple as that. You might think it's idealistic, but it's the best guideline. If an invader posts in the regional message board, that does not unnecessarily affect the game play. If he spams it, it does. If he bans someone, and does not remove then from the banlist, it unncessarily affects the gameplay. If he removes the ban, then it is at worst, a minor inconveinance to move back. Obviously, a "defender" who doesn't wish for the invader to participate does not count, because he, by virtue of "defending" is willing to participate, and therefore may have banning action taken against them.

What I'm trying to say, is that players who rant and rave about this game not reflecting the real world, or about Mods being unfair should understand that there are very sound principles behind Mod actions and policies, and they have been created with whimsy, but with dilberate thought. So what if this game is not a reflection of the real world. It is not meant to be, and if you wish to pariticpate in invasions and the such, just remember, only hurt those who wish to participate in such actions, and leave those who do not as if nothing happened to them.

Perhaps one should stop calling them "invasions" and call them "occupations". The natives remain, they merely have a new ruler.

<snip>

Nations deleted for rules violations (spamming, according to the mod centre data) will not be revived.

Legal and illegal invasion activites have been explained many times and largely comes down to these two simple concepts:

-Don't interfere with the ability of the natives to enter and leave the region as they please. (This covers the rule about handing out the password and banning nations.)
-Don't eject a large number of nations. (Should be pretty obvious, though 'a large number' is decided on a rather case by case basis.)

And CIA, please knock off the copy/pasting of your post to other threads that are only marginally related.

http://rpstudios.ian-justman.com/junk/CGgoods/RepProdtheModsig3.JPG
~Evil Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod

Blackbird, you've hit it right on the head.

It all comes down to "Play Nice."


And CIA Informant, you were not deleted because you were outspoken, you were deleted for spamming and posting MANY MANY false accusations with no evidence whatsoever.

Let me tell you something.

I work professionally on a political campaign. So I have come up against bureacrats like yourself. You think you are so cool because you are given a modicum of power. You abuse it because you have the opportunity to control the facts. You are skinny-armed, nose picking computer nerds who are basically powerless people but use your position of power in this game to compensate the fact that dont really have any on line or in the real world.

As someone who is naturally attracted to the political sphere, I found this game at one point to be interesting. it was a simulator of diplomacy in a political vacuum and an exercise of laissez faire. It turned out to be a cycle of lies, distortions of the truth, getting bullied from a single person via there several puppet nations, basically getting the business. As you might imagine, I get enough of this at work and I dont find it to be very entertaining having to confront something like this for "recreation."

In fact, you might say that my interest in this game has snapped, ceased, terminated, ended, vanished, capitulated.

I do not have the time or interest to root through every single fact of the matter. I'm not interested enough to argue this endlessly. Delete me if you must. I really dont effing care anymore. My other "informants" have been already discharged from active service.

In fact, Id appreciate it if you deleted me. You should probably also delete Cosmo Kramerica and 1 Infinite Loop, too. They also dared to challenge your authority.

EFU2 - GAVEL IN YOUR HEAD

<snip>

In other words, you're on your high horse about how you're in the business and know it all. You also happen to think you're clever in flaming people in a more eloquent manner than the average "OMG U SUK!" variety. And you're saying that because the OH SO CORRUPT moderator geeks won't revive a nation deleted for rules violations, you don't want to play the game anymore, or waste your time on it.

To which I say this: We do not delete nations on request, and attempted suicide by mod will be met with tactics other than deletion. And please, by all means, find something else to spend your free time on. I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't miss your presence.

And if you really are bugged by the antics of the OH SO CORRUPT moderators, I also say this: Take it to our boss, the game's admin. Email address: admin@nationstates.net

<snip>

In other words, you're on your high horse about how you're in the business and know it all. You also happen to think you're clever in flaming people in a more eloquent manner than the average "OMG U SUK!" variety. And you're saying that because the OH SO CORRUPT moderator geeks won't revive a nation deleted for rules violations, you don't want to play the game anymore, or waste your time on it.

To which I say this: We do not delete nations on request, and attempted suicide by mod will be met with tactics other than deletion. And please, by all means, find something else to spend your free time on. I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't miss your presence.

And if you really are bugged by the antics of the OH SO CORRUPT moderators, I also say this: Take it to our boss, the game's admin. Email address: admin@nationstates.net

Hear, hear. Well said.

Blackbird, you've hit it right on the head.

It all comes down to "Play Nice."


And CIA Informant, you were not deleted because you were outspoken, you were deleted for spamming and posting MANY MANY false accusations with no evidence whatsoever.

With all due respect Neutered Sputniks, "Play Nice", although fundamentally correct (and I agree with it), doesn't quite work as an enforceable principle. You see, "Play Nice", doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. "Let a nation that doens't want to play your game live in peace and without undue interfereance", means the same thing to a much greater degree than "Play Nice" does. While I certainly I not an advocate of the mass codification of rules, I think the most informative and helpful document would be one that explicitly explained, not the rules, but philosophy of the rules, like I explained above.

Hey Moderators, this is the former ruler of Ostella. While I understand that i did break the rules and I will take my punishment, I would however like for these rules to be more widely known throught the game, or perhaps just the invador regions/nations. I believe this will be a big step forward to ensure that this type of thing doesn't happen again. However there is one thing that I must ask of you. That you reinstate the nation of Sexybiogoddess, she did nothing to deserve the punishment she got from the moderator. She had no part in any action that I alone took. I implore you to reverse this punishment and reinstate her. Thank you

I also agree with Ostella, I had asked why Sexybiogoddess was deleted, because she had nothing to so with the banning in Alpha Centauri. She did exactly what I did. Head over there and endorse Ostella.

I don't really have a problem with the moderators. However, I do remember situations where the exact same thing happened (as far as I know) in another region and yet only mere warnings were issued, not deletions. Of course, I don't have all the information in this situation so it isn't my place to judge the mods.

Hey Moderators, this is the former ruler of Ostella. While I understand that i did break the rules and I will take my punishment, I would however like for these rules to be more widely known throught the game, or perhaps just the invador regions/nations. I believe this will be a big step forward to ensure that this type of thing doesn't happen again. However there is one thing that I must ask of you. That you reinstate the nation of Sexybiogoddess, she did nothing to deserve the punishment she got from the moderator. She had no part in any action that I alone took. I implore you to reverse this punishment and reinstate her. Thank you

I agree, perhaps the NS FAQ should be updated to reflect the password and unbanning rules:

Can I invade other people's regions?

Yes. The practice of "region crashing," where a group of nations all move to a region with the aim of seizing the UN Delegate position, is part of the game. Certain groups within NationStates are particularly adroit at this, and can attack very quickly.

Once I've taken over a region, can I eject everyone else?

No. Region crashing by itself is a legitimate tactic to seize power, but ejecting large numbers of nations is griefing. It can be a fine line between region crashing and griefing. Players who enjoy launching invasions should take care to stay on the right side.
Currently this is all it says on the subject matter of invading and greifing. Updating it might help some of the young/inexperienced Invader/defender groups know the newer rules without having to find the Gameplay Forum FAQ (that FAQ is kind of hard to read with all it's different text colors and somewhat unclear form in my opinion).

Once I've taken over a region, can I eject everyone else?

No. Region crashing by itself is a legitimate tactic to seize power, but ejecting large numbers of nations is griefing. It can be a fine line between region crashing and griefing. Players who enjoy launching invasions should take care to stay on the right side.
Currently this is all it says on the subject matter of invading and greifing. Updating it might help some of the young/inexperienced Invader/defender groups know the newer rules without having to find the Gameplay Forum FAQ (that FAQ is kind of hard to read with all it's different text colors and somewhat unclear form in my opinion).

(emphasis mine)

The highlighted part clearly puts the burden on the potential invader to seek out the rules.

i don't know, hack..
maybe a link in the FAQ to the invasion sticky over in gameplay wouldn't hurt..
i think it might prevent some griefings in the future, a lot of people do read the FAQ, but not the forums..

i don't know, hack..
maybe a link in the FAQ to the invasion sticky over in gameplay wouldn't hurt..
i think it might prevent some griefings in the future, a lot of people do read the FAQ, but not the forums..

We're working on a more concrete draft of invasion rules. Also, a link to the FAQ isn't likely until after the migration.

I've read good points brought up by both sides in this debate and now I would like to add a few things.

I think the Mods have a hard job as there are only a few of them for over 40,000 of us. Sometimes mistakes are made on their part but I think thats more because of the time involved they can spend on any one task and not because they are cheating, corrupt or playing favorites. This still comes down to us, as players to stay within the rules.

But at the same time a few changes in the Mods rules would be nice. The one where you get messages from Game Moderator instead of the Mod should be changed. If a mistake is made it would be nice to be able to plead your case to him. Of course the Mod will say that he makes 100 decisions and doesn't have time to answer 100 emails but see, I don't buy that. I run 3 websites and I have to answer the same amount of email everyday and I will say to the Mods what I say to myself, if you can't take the heat get out of the fire.

How can this really be fair if there just isn't any set way to hold a Mod accountable for his or her actions? I ask every single mod here just this one question, What if your wrong? What if you deleted a nation, a thread here or banned an IP and you were wrong for doing it?

How does the player plead his case if A) He doesn't know who did it and B) The Mod never steps forward to explain his actions.

There has to be some type of accountability in everything and to not have it breeds threads like this calling into question the whole setup of the game.

Hack, here's an idea for the invasion rules.

There should be 2 seperate types of rules governing this.
One for peaceful regions, to make it twice to three times as hard for invaders to invade. This way if they're successful and stay within the rules then they have really accomplished something. This will offer added protection to the regions that wish to go about their own thing and not take part in that aspect of the game.

The other part to the rules should be for Invaders. Game rules are set at the lowest standard and if invaded no help will be offered. What is happening to them is poetic justice as they themselves are invaders. As long as the Invaders stay within those basic rules then everything is allowed to play out.

The rules would be easier to understand for all involved and bring the game to a whole new level of play.

<snip>

In other words, you're on your high horse about how you're in the business and know it all. You also happen to think you're clever in flaming people in a more eloquent manner than the average "OMG U SUK!" variety. And you're saying that because the OH SO CORRUPT moderator geeks won't revive a nation deleted for rules violations, you don't want to play the game anymore, or waste your time on it.

To which I say this: We do not delete nations on request, and attempted suicide by mod will be met with tactics other than deletion. And please, by all means, find something else to spend your free time on. I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't miss your presence.

And if you really are bugged by the antics of the OH SO CORRUPT moderators, I also say this: Take it to our boss, the game's admin. Email address: admin@nationstates.net


I don't deserve abuse, at work or when playing "games" after work.

SO CRAM IT, JERK

Once I've taken over a region, can I eject everyone else?

No. Region crashing by itself is a legitimate tactic to seize power, but ejecting large numbers of nations is griefing. It can be a fine line between region crashing and griefing. Players who enjoy launching invasions should take care to stay on the right side.
Currently this is all it says on the subject matter of invading and greifing. Updating it might help some of the young/inexperienced Invader/defender groups know the newer rules without having to find the Gameplay Forum FAQ (that FAQ is kind of hard to read with all it's different text colors and somewhat unclear form in my opinion).


(emphasis mine)

The highlighted part clearly puts the burden on the potential invader to seek out the rules.

It's difficult to stay on the right side when the side keeps moving. We still need an "Invader Mod". It would be nice to have someone looking out for our interests too.

It's difficult to stay on the right side when the side keeps moving. We still need an "Invader Mod". It would be nice to have someone looking out for our interests too.

It seems to me mods have so far been selected who aren't on any side in particular. That's IMHO a better idea than trying to have a mod 'representing' each possible viewpoint and then somehow expect them to work together.

Ballotonia

I don't deserve abuse, at work or when playing "games" after work.


I think you have the heart of the matter there. People should be able to log on and read these forums without the fear that they will discover somebody insulting them personally. That should include moderators as well as anyone else.


SO CRAM IT, JERK

And now you demonstrate why these things go against you. On the one hand you say people shouldn't insult you, while on the other you engage in a tirade of insulting behaviour against someone else.

Do you see now why you might have been deleted? "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." and all. Stop insulting people and let the mods zap those who starting insulting you... heck, it works for the 1,000s of people on this forum who haven't been deleted.


(And bear in mind that "They started it!" sounds as childish now as it ever did.)

It seems to me mods have so far been selected who aren't on any side in particular. That's IMHO a better idea than trying to have a mod 'representing' each possible viewpoint and then somehow expect them to work together.
He's right, a bunch of Mods representing different lobbies with competing agendas would be a disaster.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

I agree as well. Having mods for certain things wouldn't work at all. Whats needed is 2 sets of rules, one for regions that want to remain in peace and one for invaders. Invaders being invaded shouldn't get the same consideration that a peaceful region gets as they choose to play a game a certain way and now expect mods to save them.

Also to be fair Mods in no way should be allowed to hide behind a Game Moderator Tag. They as well as the regular players have to be held accountable for their actions. Being able to hide behind a tag gives players the sense they can do anything they wish, play favorites and ban or otherwise hinder another player from doing something against a favorite.

Once again what happens if a Mod bans a nation and he was wrong in the banning? Nothing because he hid behind his Game Moderator Tag and the player has no idea who to consult with. Same with a Warning. What if the warning was given and the player rightfully didn't deserve the warning. As it came from a Game Moderator there isn't anyway the player can explain his side of it.

Once again I understand that Mods have a large job to do but at the same time i fyou can't take the heat get out of the fire.

What it comes down to is that invasions are not wanted by the most of the moderators but Max Barry likes to keep them in the game. Probably because of his ironic humor. Anyone who wants to argue that moderators do want invaders in the game would be wise to look through the history of these forums and see the stance of the moderators before they became moderators.
There are a few of them that are fair enough to see both sides of the argument but mostly invaders cause them problems as well so when one of the invader hating mods comes up with a rule I'm sure it's not so difficult to make it into NS law.
The reality is that without Max watching the game the moderating team has been able to put enough rules into place and create "grey" areas that for all intensive purposes invasions are, right now, impossible. There are only two groups mentioned in this thread that are capable of pulling of a legitmitate invasion without crossing the rules. Both of them have been in this game for over a year. Within the last month both of them have either dissolved or decided invasions aren't worth the time and effort anymore.
New rules will not change the situation. Soldifying rules will not change the situation (they will never be solidified anyway). There is no way to stage a legal invasion under the current system, invasions are legal in name only.

So to all you invader hating mods, defender groups, role playing guys, congratulations. You have finally crushed the concept of invasions in NationStates.

Cosmo, have you considered that the very best of invaders have escaped any harm (well, moderator harm) for some time? You know, the Farkers, the AA, the NPO(matter of opinion here, I know they're not technically invaders)...

Most invaders, including the Kramericans, just aren't at that same level of quality. Part of skill as an invader is to know where to draw the line in behavior.

I wish this was the whole truth. In reality, the only reason we are still in the game is that A) we try to follow the rules and B) we fight like hell when are treated unjustly in the game (not saying intentionally, still). We have bumped heads with mods often then not, despite the fact that we have almost always been vindicated.

As to unfair treatment, it exists. Just recently a moderator deleted one of our Delegate nations for kicking out Defenders—even though this is legal. This was completely a mistake, and the mod was great about looking into this. It was not intentional, but it happens. Oh, after he was deleted, a defender took over and kicked out a couple of natives. The defender delegate was given a warning. So, yeah, I believe there is an inequality, though at the same time I believe the mods are doing there best.

Aside from that, the rules are ridiculous; I’ve been saying that for a while. Most people are anti-invader, so they will get their way when invasions become possible only theoretically.



It's difficult to stay on the right side when the side keeps moving. We still need an "Invader Mod". It would be nice to have someone looking out for our interests too.

It seems to me mods have so far been selected who aren't on any side in particular. That's IMHO a better idea than trying to have a mod 'representing' each possible viewpoint and then somehow expect them to work together.

Ballotonia

I believe at least a couple of moderators are in defensive groups. In the past moderators have all said that an invader should not be counted out as a possible mod. Do you honestly believe anyone is truly on neither side of the idea of invasions? No, everyone has an opinion. To suggest that an invader could not be as honest as a defender, if the right person was chosen, would be insulting. I’m not saying you are suggesting this, I am saying that to anyone who would make a blanket statement against an invader moderator though.

And I want quote Jux, though to the most part I completely agree with the sentiment. There has been a push for a long time to move the game away from legal invasions, and as such only the most dilent and most patient are able to invade. And even with that, there is no telling how an action will be intpreted.

The thing i don't like is the password bit, because in my view invading has basically stopped happening and is very hard to pull off.


But i get the point that these rules are very unlikely to change, so what would be great is just a link to the rules.

In my region there is a 2 billion old nation, who didn't know the invading rules because he hadn't touched the forum. If 2 billion people don't know then how are newbies supposed to know?

I didn't touch the forum for ages, and i didn't know about invading rules because i didn't know there were any, except the large ejecting bit. So a section on the FAQ would cut the Griefing by a large amount i think.

Only going to hit on a few points here, while the forum actually appears to be functional =p

1) If a player feels a mod has done something by mistake (such as a deletion) they can email [violet] about it. The mod centre (where we delete people, run UN scans, etc) logs every single action a mod does- time, which mod, what they did, and to who (That's how [violet] makes the 'Mod Olympics', is by using the log). [violet] can look through this log, find the incident in question, and review it. If the mod was mistaken, the situation is corrected. If the mod was abusing power, they get a stern talkig to by the boss. So far, there hasn't been an incident major enough to merit demodding somebody- the boss's stern talking tos seem more than enough to put the fear of Max into the most DEAT-happy of us moddie types :wink:

2) The reason we are currently working on a concrete revision to invasion rules is because us oh-so-anti-invasion mods noticed an increase in nations being zapped for what really are minor infractions and I proposed that "Hey, guys, this is getting really luducrious, here, whatcha think about this for a revision...". The new ruleset that we're already mostly in agreement on is actually a lot more fair to invaders than the current 'vapor' version, and will also make for less work for the mods. We're awaiting Max's input on them, and are ironing out a few small details, but once we get it done, I'm pretty confident that the invader portion of the NS population will be pleasantly surprised. I can't spill too much yet, since it isn't done, but I can say that the revised set will very likely include more breathing room on telling all the natives the password, and on kick/ban tactics.

http://rpstudios.ian-justman.com/junk/CGgoods/RepProdtheModsig2.JPG
~Evil Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~Master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

Ackbar, quite likely, two different Mods worked those instances. And as often happens, some of the newer mods arent quite clear on what is and isnt kosher in invasions. Or perhaps the mod realized he'd overstepped the first time, and summarily didnt overstep the second.


As for an invader mod, we have one or two that are pro-invasions. If you want the honest truth, I like invasions. I have nothing against the good invaders. I do, however, have problems when jerks start killing regions because they can - and the 'rules' allow it.

If you cant see that invaders are not the only ones playing this game, then we'll constantly have problems. You want to be able to play your way, unfettered, well, so does the other side. So do those of us that might like to watch invasions, but dont want to participate. I have every right to play this game without threat of being invaded and being kicked out of my home region.

Thus, we Mods strive to strike the balance between both sides, we allow invasions but we put restrictions on them so the other side can still enjoy their game. Invaders do not own this game, as they'd like to think. This game is for EVERYONE - invader or not - and the rules attempt to reflect that.

Quote by Reploid Productions
Only going to hit on a few points here, while the forum actually appears to be functional =p

2) The reason we are currently working on a concrete revision to invasion rules is because us oh-so-anti-invasion mods noticed an increase in nations being zapped for what really are minor infractions and I proposed that "Hey, guys, this is getting really luducrious, here, whatcha think about this for a revision...". The new ruleset that we're already mostly in agreement on is actually a lot more fair to invaders than the current 'vapor' version, and will also make for less work for the mods. We're awaiting Max's input on them, and are ironing out a few small details, but once we get it done, I'm pretty confident that the invader portion of the NS population will be pleasantly surprised. I can't spill too much yet, since it isn't done, but I can say that the revised set will very likely include more breathing room on telling all the natives the password, and on kick/ban tactics.


Im glad to hear you guys are working on adjusting the rules, and i look forward to it!



@Neutered Sputniks
I do, however, have problems when jerks start killing regions because they can - and the 'rules' allow it.

But they cant, the rules dont allow it :D. I also strongly disagree with invaders being able to kill off regions..thats something I personally have never seen actually, although im sure it happens.

Thus, we Mods strive to strike the balance between both sides,
Personally, I believe some mods and rules are too biased in favor of defenders... Hence the reason why I complained about the unfair deletion of some good players, for such a small breach of the rules.

It seems to me mods have so far been selected who aren't on any side in particular. That's IMHO a better idea than trying to have a mod 'representing' each possible viewpoint and then somehow expect them to work together.
He's right, a bunch of Mods representing different lobbies with competing agendas would be a disaster.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

That's the way it is now, except the invaders aren't represented. Maybe I'm missing something here, but you think it's fine that there are RP mods and defender mods, but an invader mod would make things "a disaster"?

Actually, believe it or not, I'm staunchly for invasions. I just believe that there's more to the game than invasions, and thus, attempt to strike some kind of balance between invaders and non-invaders. Unfortunately, the ruffians of our community tend to fall into the ranks of invaders simply because that's an easy way to disrupt many other players.

The rules do not favor defenders over invaders - they might be incorrectly enforced in that manner, but that is not the way they are supposed to be. The rules are supposed to favor natives/non-invaders over both defenders and invaders, where defenders and invaders are on an equal level. The incorrect enforcement is greatly my fault, and I apologize. I'm the most knowledgeable Mod when it comes to invasions and the rules/enforcement thereof and I've been slacking the last 4-5 months due to my move and other associated changes in my life. This will change shortly, and the rules will be enforced more evenly.

If the mod was mistaken, the situation is corrected.

That's not entirely true. The nation will be allowed back into the UN and/or brought back from the dead, but if the mod action terminated a legit invasion, it is essentially over. This wouldn't be such a big deal if there weren't a pattern of mods overturning legit invasions.

This is the main reason it's basically impossible to carry out a complex invasion at this point. Even if you don't violate any rules, the mods shoot first and ask questions later. Once the invasion has been ended and the region has been thoroughly protected, the mods might change the status of a nation or two, but they aren't going to go so far as to reinstate the invader to its rightful position.

Going to Max when the mods overstep their bounds only works in the most superficial sense. The reality of the situation is that once it's time to go to Max, any mod actions taken to rectify the situation are just window dressing...although it is certainly nice (and appreciated) when a mod has the decency to apologize.

....I can say that the revised set will very likely include more breathing room on telling all the natives the password, and on kick/ban tactics.

That would be welcome, but is only useful if the mods take an active interest in following the rules.

It's most unfair to ask invaders to follow every new rule invented on the fly (not to mention vapor rules) when the mods themselves are not required to do so.

The rules do not favor defenders over invaders - they might be incorrectly enforced in that manner, but that is not the way they are supposed to be.

They are and always have been enforced unfairly, even before defenders existed, but it's nice to see an acknowledgement of the underlying problem. I wish you good luck in reforming the system.

Neutered Sputniks

Thank you for taking the time to address this as I think most here just want to keep this game as one of the best on the internet.

While my region is Pro-Invasion we strictly try to keep that to other invading regions. We think that to invade a peaceful region that hasn't done anything to us is pointless and takes away from the game. So with that in mind I think the rules should be even harder for a Invader to attack a peaceful region. If they wish to take this game to that level then make them work for it!!!

On the other hand the rules for an attack on another invader should be rather lax. Since these regions have chosen to live by the sword then they shouldn't have the option of crying to a Mod for help when they themselves have died by that same sword.

As for nations being deleted I think for the most part the Mods are mainly right. I have had a nation deleted and from the mods point of view it was because I owned 2 UN nations. I accept that even if one was owned by my wife. One computer so one IP address so no big deal.

But Mods, once a nation is deleted or a warning given should have to answer to the player in question when a thread is created here about the said ban/warning. I recieved a warning unjustly a few days ago, made a post here and it's never been answered. Now for that Mod to hide behind his mod status, and not come forward to give an explanation is just wrong. Thats when players begin to think that Mods have become a bit to big and lord over the game.

Everything in life has checks and balances, debits and credits. Just as the players have to answer to the mods the mods should have to answer to the players. That is the only fair way to run the game and that would complete the check and balance system here in Nation States.

There was a time when the idea of having invader regions and non-invader regions was tossed about. In the end, it was decided that it would be too much trouble and cause too many more heacaches to implement.

As for the owning up to actions taken, oft this leads to the Mod responsible being flamed, falsely accused of bias, etc. Believe me, I've been on the recieving end. And, often, we feel that it is unneccessary as players who break the rules, who know they broke the rules, do not deem a response. If they did, our jobs would become infinitely more time-consuming and thus impossible.

okay- sometimes yea you can give out the password to the nations sure- but what if the whole point of the invasion is to take that region over anyway? why should you give the password out?


and heres an unfair banning

polish mafia invades rome- solarius comes in and boots the polish guy out, we didnt boot any natives.

we get 3 nations deleted and 1 nation taken out the the un.

how does this work as being fair?

okay- sometimes yea you can give out the password to the nations sure- but what if the whole point of the invasion is to take that region over anyway? why should you give the password out?

Because it's not your region. Regardless of whether you've taken over the delegateship, it is NOT your region. Period.


and heres an unfair banning

polish mafia invades rome- solarius comes in and boots the polish guy out, we didnt boot any natives.

we get 3 nations deleted and 1 nation taken out the the un.

how does this work as being fair?

Who is 'we'? And perhaps there's more to this than you're currently divulging.

Neutered Sputniks

Touche.
I didn't take into account the flaming Mods might recieve from players and can see why a mod would be wary of owning up to things here. I still think that if a mod is to send a warning to a nation he should still have to use an email where the player can respond if he feels he recieved this warning and didn't deserve it. Maybe something along the game moderators one you use now but one that allows the player to respond.

As for invasions I can see how having 2 seperate sets of rules could become impossible to deal with. I still think Mods should take complaints from invading regions like mine with a grain of salt.
I just don't think a Mod should step in to save my region if I'm being invaded since I myself have invaded in the past. Players shouldn't have the option of having it both ways is all. If a region doesn't like when you step in to save a region they are invading why should they now want you to save them?
Now I know I'm being bias here as my region invades invaders and a rule like this would only help me. Just seems to me Mods are in a Catch-22 enforcing the same rules to invaders they do to peaceful regions.

Thanks for your time and for responding.

Generally speaking, most of the Mods address invasions in that manner. When invaders/defenders are invaded, we allow more latitude than when 'innocent' regions are invaded.

There are a few Mods, however, that dont quite have this down. We're working on it.

If you cant see that invaders are not the only ones playing this game, then we'll constantly have problems. You want to be able to play your way, unfettered, well, so does the other side. So do those of us that might like to watch invasions, but dont want to participate. I have every right to play this game without threat of being invaded and being kicked
out of my home region.


Don't have time to read the full thread just now, but if you don't think I am aweare of other players, then you are signficantly unaware of how I have played the game for the last several months. Not that I expect you to follow how I play the game, but the inferrence that this is my attitude (if intended for me-- and by begining this quote by addressing me, I ssume you are) is based an obvious misunderstanding of me and what I want for the game.

Also, if you ever get a spare day or two, feel free to look through all of my nation's posts and find where Is aid I wanted unfettered invasions. I have actually always argued the opposite, that there needs to be rules for invasions and natives should have the upper hand. That doesn;t mean that it should be all but acadamically impossible to invade, or that it
should tip so heavily towards natives/defenders as to chase out all legal (or most) invaders.

This is short, so please don't misunderastand my intent. Not angry, not upset, don't want to come across that way. But the way you seemed to portray my interests was patently false, wanted to post quickly before I finished editing a letter.

I'm still working on this invasion thingie... consider it a set of new eyes. In the game, all that matters, it only purpose is to gain control of the UN delegateship for a region. You have to weaken a UN delegate's voting power in one or more regions to gain it in another. I really don't see the advantage.

If it is used as the game's warfare, region vs. region, the new changes should make a big difference. A defending region should have an advantage... a defense is given an automatic 2 to 1 by gaming standards. Allowing the invaders a little longer to consolidate is about right, but it should not be indefinate. A resistance movement always grows in a conquered nation.

Mods should be meditators... unless sanctions are truly called for by the actions of one or both participates.

Multi-users, I quote my grandpappy... get a rope.

When a new rule is added or a change in a rule occur's... there should be a reasonable lead-in time. The length of time should be judged by the urgency of the change.

When are these new rules comming into effect ?



Only going to hit on a few points here, while the forum actually appears to be functional =p

1) If a player feels a mod has done something by mistake (such as a deletion) they can email [violet] about it. The mod centre (where we delete people, run UN scans, etc) logs every single action a mod does- time, which mod, what they did, and to who (That's how [violet] makes the 'Mod Olympics', is by using the log). [violet] can look through this log, find the incident in question, and review it. If the mod was mistaken, the situation is corrected. If the mod was abusing power, they get a stern talkig to by the boss. So far, there hasn't been an incident major enough to merit demodding somebody- the boss's stern talking tos seem more than enough to put the fear of Max into the most DEAT-happy of us moddie types :wink:

2) The reason we are currently working on a concrete revision to invasion rules is because us oh-so-anti-invasion mods noticed an increase in nations being zapped for what really are minor infractions and I proposed that "Hey, guys, this is getting really luducrious, here, whatcha think about this for a revision...". The new ruleset that we're already mostly in agreement on is actually a lot more fair to invaders than the current 'vapor' version, and will also make for less work for the mods. We're awaiting Max's input on them, and are ironing out a few small details, but once we get it done, I'm pretty confident that the invader portion of the NS population will be pleasantly surprised. I can't spill too much yet, since it isn't done, but I can say that the revised set will very likely include more breathing room on telling all the natives the password, and on kick/ban tactics.

http://rpstudios.ian-justman.com/junk/CGgoods/RepProdtheModsig2.JPG
~Evil Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~Master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

2nd Tuesday of next week.

Let me tell you something.

I work professionally on a political campaign.
Wow!
So I have come up against bureacrats like yourself.*Checks mods* Odd, their rather normal people to me, don't see any bureacrats.
You are skinny-armed, nose picking computer nerds who are basically powerless people but use your position of power in this game to compensate the fact that dont really have any on line or in the real world.Wow, stereotypes. Even better when they don't apply.

As you might imagine, I get enough of this at work and I dont find it to be very entertaining having to confront something like this for "recreation."
And as you might imagine, you didn't pay anything to use this website and keep coming here under your own free will. Why? If it's pissing you off so much, why keep coming back?

In fact, you might say that my interest in this game has snapped, ceased, terminated, ended, vanished, capitulated.Again, why do you keep posting then?


EFU2 - GAVEL IN YOUR HEAD
??? I'm not even sure what that means. Doesn't seem rather mature. But hey, it's okay for you to insult the mods, but it's the end of the friggin world if they delete people for breakin the rules.

... you might want to check the dates on posts before responding ;)


Ballotonia

This topic has bees Stewing a while and like all previous attempts to get actual Written Rules (I cite pre regional controls and just after regional controls as eras when this same question has been brought up)
It seems as though this topic was allowed to fall down the que in hope of us forgetting about it,
well we were promised written rules, anything so far?

This topic has bees Stewing a while and like all previous attempts to get actual Written Rules (I cite pre regional controls and just after regional controls as eras when this same question has been brought up)
It seems as though this topic was allowed to fall down the que in hope of us forgetting about it,
well we were promised written rules, anything so far?

Things are stalled at the moment due to a very common problem, actually...

... the forums ate the thread where we were working on it in the mod's lair :oops:

I'm going to try and rebuild what we had settled on so far from memory... but that's gotta wait until I'm not saddled with a headache that could kill a moose! :lol:

*gives reppy holy aspirin*

So...uh...Reppy...I hate to be the one to do it (not really), but...I gotta question for ya:

If the headache you have could kill a moose...and it hasnt killed you...does that mean you're bigger than a moose? Or just smellier? Or what exactly...?

So...uh...Reppy...I hate to be the one to do it (not really), but...I gotta question for ya:

If the headache you have could kill a moose...and it hasnt killed you...does that mean you're bigger than a moose? Or just smellier? Or what exactly...?

*beats Neut about the head and shoulders with the hilt of Kiritateru Teikoku*

*beats Neut about the head and shoulders with the hilt of Kiritateru Teikoku*

*notes Reppy never actually answered the question...*

Just the hilt? :(

You know I keep seeing things about this...and it makes me wonder...

Why not just stop invading (read: griefing) and RP?

...amazing thought....isn't it?

You know I keep seeing things about this...and it makes me wonder...

Why not just stop invading (read: griefing) and RP?

...amazing thought....isn't it?

Why don't RPers stop clogging up the forums and participate in the invasion-defense game? </sarcasm>

IMHO, both are completely valid ways of playing NS.

The Liberal Unitary Republic of Goobergunchia
UnAPS Member
ADN Member

ok so you say about 1k people invade, and another 1k people defend. tahts 8/10ths.

The rest of the people are fools for playing such a silly game with no real value. Playing the same issues day after day does nothing. Max Barry incorperated Region Crashing into the game for spice! Not to get everyone deleted.

While it is true that there are people who grief. This is usually because A) they have been griefed themselves and are getting revenge. B) They are new people to the game, and never did read the rules. or C) The mods deleted them because they don't like crashers. Thats plain and simple truth.


I have seen NUMEROUS occaisions where the mods have messed up invasions. Almost every crasher group out there today is very strict on rule violations. Why is it then that regions will become "frozen" by mods, to disallow the update. Just for the simple fact that Invaders were going to take it. Now thats just silly!!!!! and it IS a very good example of NAZI moderators.

Get out of the game your ruining it for everyone by playing like that.

Most Invader regions only attack other regions that have asked for it. Mods are just strengthening our case.

I give you the example of Workers Alliance. New Republic Near America and various other TAG nations had crashed it. Had the delegacy locked up, and just waiting for update. Come update time... nothing.... 2 hours later? nothing.... Eventually the delegate comes in and boots everyone. This is an atrocity. You mods call yourselves fair. BAH!

This topic has bees Stewing a while and like all previous attempts to get actual Written Rules (I cite pre regional controls and just after regional controls as eras when this same question has been brought up)
It seems as though this topic was allowed to fall down the que in hope of us forgetting about it,
well we were promised written rules, anything so far?

Things are stalled at the moment due to a very common problem, actually...

... the forums ate the thread where we were working on it in the mod's lair :oops:

I'm going to try and rebuild what we had settled on so far from memory... but that's gotta wait until I'm not saddled with a headache that could kill a moose! :lol:Any chance of player input on these, like when Sal was working out the rules for scripts? I'm sure a lot of people would like to have a hand in drafting these rules, and we might well spot loopholes that you might otherwise miss.

*smiles hopefully :) *

Um...2000 players is not 8/10ths of the game. Rather, 2k players is quite a small percentage considering the well over 30k players (figuring for puppets and such).

Even after seeing this dregged up again, I'm still going with my "Play Nice" rules. If there's a chance that what you're doing is going to unduly or irreversibly inconveinance someone who doesn't want to play the invasion game, dont' do it.

This topic has bees Stewing a while and like all previous attempts to get actual Written Rules (I cite pre regional controls and just after regional controls as eras when this same question has been brought up)
It seems as though this topic was allowed to fall down the que in hope of us forgetting about it,
well we were promised written rules, anything so far?

Things are stalled at the moment due to a very common problem, actually...

... the forums ate the thread where we were working on it in the mod's lair :oops:

I'm going to try and rebuild what we had settled on so far from memory... but that's gotta wait until I'm not saddled with a headache that could kill a moose! :lol:
Understood I hope we get a solid answer soon though, Especially since it will help get rid of teh griefers and Multies who try to use the good name of Legit invaders.

You know I keep seeing things about this...and it makes me wonder...

Why not just stop invading (read: griefing) and RP?

...amazing thought....isn't it?

Because not neveryone likes to RP.
Personally trying to force someone to play your way is in a way griefing them.
and Yes, most folk believe the RPers are the ones sucking up all the server and teh bandwith. that is why pretty much all EP RP is on the EP board.

This topic has bees Stewing a while and like all previous attempts to get actual Written Rules (I cite pre regional controls and just after regional controls as eras when this same question has been brought up)
It seems as though this topic was allowed to fall down the que in hope of us forgetting about it,
well we were promised written rules, anything so far?

Things are stalled at the moment due to a very common problem, actually...

... the forums ate the thread where we were working on it in the mod's lair :oops:

I'm going to try and rebuild what we had settled on so far from memory... but that's gotta wait until I'm not saddled with a headache that could kill a moose! :lol:Any chance of player input on these, like when Sal was working out the rules for scripts? I'm sure a lot of people would like to have a hand in drafting these rules, and we might well spot Loopholes that you might otherwise miss.

*smiles hopefully :) *

Spoffin, Quit Looking For Those!

that is a good idea, I feel certain people could be pretty useful in helping craft them.

Yech, I gotta agree with Loop on this one. RP is horrid. If people want to invade, sheesh, let them, it's a good part of the game.

If people want to invade, sheesh, let them, it's a good part of the game.

You have a point here. However, you miss that there are people out there that want nothing to do with regional invasions. And we must also take into account the overall effect an invasion has on a region. Thus, the password rule was created - in an effort to keep a region from dying once invaded.

the funny part is Regional Controls as I once stated have rather than solve the problem made it worse, where once all an invader could do was modify the factbook, Regional controls gives them the power to do much more.

I still say, if a region doesnt want to be invaded,
A, have an active Delegate and Founder.
B, Use the password, Sure you dont get as many recruits, but it is the trade off, Free immigration and the possibility of invasion, or saftey, thier choice.

I do however like what Myrth did (I think it was him) and found is region then let the founder die off, perhaps give folk the option to Not have a founder upon region creation.

I give you the example of Workers Alliance. New Republic Near America and various other TAG nations had crashed it. Had the delegacy locked up, and just waiting for update. Come update time... nothing.... 2 hours later? nothing.... Eventually the delegate comes in and boots everyone. This is an atrocity. You mods call yourselves fair. BAH!

Well, considering the fact that we have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL OVER THE UN UPDATE TIMES, I think your point is rather moot, but don't let that stop random, irrational bashing of the mods.

the funny part is Regional Controls as I once stated have rather than solve the problem made it worse, where once all an invader could do was modify the factbook, Regional controls gives them the power to do much more.

I still say, if a region doesnt want to be invaded,
A, have an active Delegate and Founder.
B, Use the password, Sure you dont get as many recruits, but it is the trade off, Free immigration and the possibility of invasion, or saftey, thier choice.

I do however like what Myrth did (I think it was him) and found is region then let the founder die off, perhaps give folk the option to Not have a founder upon region creation.

Ahh, but Loop, why must they change the way they play to fit the invader groups agendas?

Alright folks, in case you missed the announcement at the top of the Moderation and Gameplay forums, here they are!

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=138361