NationStates Jolt Archive

I will be sure to file a complaint, but I want to be sure the mods are consistent on this one point, and it is important to make some issues public as well.

I am an invader.

We took over a region recently. A defender group came in now weeks later and took over the Delegate spot. He did not come into the region until after we were in control of the region, therefor he is not afforded the rights of a native. By rule, he can not ban us from the region. However, this is exactly what he did.

This is against the rules as outlined. He is either acting from ignorance of the rules, or he is griefing on purpose. Either way it is against the rules.

I will mention the region in question in my Getting Help complaint, so that not everyone will be aware that this individual is griefing (again, it could be from ignorance).

This region hasn't been griefed. The natives haven't been touched in this situation; in fact they have been directly involved.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123430

We've been very careful so as not to violate all rules, as you threatened to report us the minute Hrmmm ejected anyone. Therefore, we have documented everything.

Invaders don't have native rights in United States. You tried to take over and failed, and were therefore ejected by the defender delegate...who is working on behalf of and directly with the natives.

Well, invading a region isn't exactly illegal in NS, but it's still immoral and rude. I'm not a mod, but I would certainly think that someone kicking out invaders is not griefing, as it is only taking back control for those who actually live in the region. Kudos to whoever kicked out the invaders and regained control.

Alas, it is not my call. Just a helpful word of advice.

I am an invader.

We took over a region recently. A defender group came in now weeks later and took over the Delegate spot. He did not come into the region until after we were in control of the region, therefor he is not afforded the rights of a native. By rule, he can not ban us from the region. However, this is exactly what he did.
You're arguing that invaders can't kick invaders?

This is wrong, the only rules are that invaders can't kick natives. You, by your own admission, are not natives.

I must fully and completely agree with Pope Hope. You are not a native, you are an invaded. Your complaint will fall through.

You're arguing that invaders can't kick invaders?

This is wrong, the only rules are that invaders can't kick natives. You, by your own admission, are not natives.

Precisely, when you even admit that you are an invader (which makes it all just easier for us) in the region you are not a native by any mean, this also means you have no rights which natives do have. So because of this you can be ejected.

I could not have been an invader. Yet I have not recieved the password to the region. In fact, no one that I have talked to has recieved the password.

Invaders from a first invasion are not accorded native rights in the event of a second invasion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

<NATIONS>cosmicstarlight:air_strip_two:kucinich:major_tom:
-iowa-:kevin_wood:benjamin_franklin:moderator_malice:
democratic_colonies:the_mustang:teddy_roosevelt:church_and_state:
andrew_jackson:the_thomas_jefferson:ulysses_s_grant:
afghani_poppy_farmers:viti-3:andistine:liberated_womyn:
sea_king:existential_blues:benwah:dunkelheit:stalingradski:
little_tokyo:blight:scurvy_people:anbar:kamloopa:the_scilly_islands:
john_kerry:trekkers:smart_voters_vs_bush:snake_n_bacon:
art_frahm:sovyetskie_uspekhi:walter_koenig:shining_america_united:
mr_rourke:captain_santa_island:kakun:ancestral_recall:farkopia:
grither:adolf_bush:upstate_new_york:nadejda:prussian_free_states:
musez:king_of_ahmn:heavilyarmedrepublics:your_home_town:
trey_edwards:julies_bunny:thatguythatnobodylikes:hrmmm:get_on_it:
sancria:veegeeville:tyrantar_ii:jengaman:fox2:koller:
the_jahova_witnesses:the_light_fantastic:lusuheid:occupied_smithania:
tinkburg:arnarchotopia:drakezania:strikeforcedelta:geomania2:
dewish_intelligence:zyonn:the_dragons_shadow:chilled_muff:
whitecastle_reborn:yodastan:mouth_of_el_sabah_nur:new_tehran:
hamka:embaria:lunarivia:tygalandic_settlers:tylerdurdenia:titanica:
spatros:adn:thesensitivenewage:a_lee_project:bodakenstien:aleisyr:
rickards_red:nem:blackshear:mi-jumfut:stealth_sweepers:
shiff:flebe:talkos:dover_da:lexwolf:brinc0ff:domocile:devoid:
ananke:kokablel:nova_argyres:groovesnakistan:aylandlandfive:
marauding_horde:curaland:lieutenant_surge:bearbrass:new_sardonika:
high_gondor:warlocklord:hydor:robobia:sheik_ali_kikoyne:crackenback:
wildthingx:nulibert</NATIONS>

You came in right with the latest batch of invaders. And have you been talking to actual natives?

Invaders from a first invasion are not accorded native rights in the event of a second invasion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

And thank you, Cog. Thought so, but we wanted to make sure. :)

They are booting natives and they aren't giving out the password.

Would the moderators please do something about these griefers?

They are booting natives and they aren't giving out the password.

Would the moderators please do something about these griefers?

From what I've heard in #nationstates_general on IRC, they (The original delegate and the defenders) are in the process of filtering out the natives from the invaders. Pope has also informed me that you supported the invaders, so you shouldn't be one to complain . :roll:

It's also of note that -Iowa- was endorsing known invaders. Foe is correct, the known natives and the defender delegate are trying to work out who the natives are and who is left over from the previous three invasions. Passwords have been given to definite natives already.

I could not have been an invader. Yet I have not recieved the password to the region. In fact, no one that I have talked to has recieved the password.

From what I have read, they are going through the list, and you should receive it shortly. In a region that big, with that many 'sleeper' invaders, it's not that surprising that is hasn't gotten around to everyone yet.

So now you invaders are judge and jury? You aren't allowed to withhold the password from natives. Read the rules. Just like Anbar, I endorsed Arch right at the end to help protect the region from Trekkers and the FA. As wierd as he and his cohorts were, they never ejected natives and they were actually doing a good job of protecting us until you and your holy crusaders showed up.

Moderators, please help us.

Please, Arch was not just defending the region, he ejected anyone that tried to enter the region that was not 100% on his side. In all, he must have ejected several dozen nations, most of which were not UN nations, and had done nothing to warrant an ejection. That, I believe, is why he was deleted in the end.

We was booting Trekkers FA goons that were trying to overthrow Ben. The non-UN puppets he booted were just sent in there to fill the ban list. These are the same griefers that are trying to take the Pacific.

But how would he know if a nation was an "FA goon" or just...oh I dont know...a nation that wanted to live there? Sounds rather convenient to claim that each and every one of the ejected nations are enemies.

In addition, I find it interesting that you would complain on one hand about the "griefing" of the ADN, yet you're perfectly fine with Arch kicking just about everyone and their sister out of the region whenever he so chose.

Invaders from a first invasion are not accorded native rights in the event of a second invasion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator
Invaders from a first invasion are not accorded native rights in the event of a second invasion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

In that case the mods have changed the rules. According to Neut defenders are invaders, and have to follow certain guidelines (I mention this because he said this recently).

Also, I’ve been in this game for a while, and I cam assure the rule has always been that if defenders or another invader group came in they can not hide behind the blanket of native rule—which means they can not ban anyone that was in the region before them.

So what you are saying, Cog, is invaders can’t ban anyone who is in the regione before them, but defenders can come in and ban anyone they want. Not only is this rule inconsistent, it is discouraging to see the game turning such a dishonest route. More and more “invasions” will only exist in theory and in griefings.

I miss it when Max used to make up the rules. No offence, but it’s true. Rules are becoming more and more conveniently anti-legal invader.

I don't think that's true, Ackbar. Invaders can't ban natives that are in the region before they get there, but they could ban defenders or other invaders (who are technically considered invaders as well) that were not natives and in there before them.

Do you have any links to any of this? I'm just as confused as the next guy. We're not trying to bend any rules, just trying to make sure we're doing things fairly. I've talked to two Mods about this, but I'm pretty sure Cog's gone for the night.

As for the whole Defender activities in the US,
the whole thing looks lke a textbook griefing to me,
Defenders come in and Bam, griefing, region is locked down for no reason, passworded and password is not give to all persons in teh region before them, (and No Im not talking about the invaders, Im talking about all teh folks who were there Before the Defendavaders arrived in power.)
Even I recall that one of our mods said Defenders were Invaders and had to follow the same rules, I think it ws Neut who said it.

anywho if things continue, the region si going to get blasted and refounded by one of teh Defender invaders hapens all the time.

As for the whole Defender activities in the US,
the whole thing looks lke a textbook griefing to me,
Defenders come in and Bam, griefing, region is locked down for no reason, passworded and password is not give to all persons in teh region before them, (and No Im not talking about the invaders, Im talking about all teh folks who were there Before the Defendavaders arrived in power.)
Even I recall that one of our mods said Defenders were Invaders and had to follow the same rules, I think it ws Neut who said it.

anywho if things continue, the region si going to get blasted and refounded by one of teh Defender invaders hapens all the time.

But there were three groups of invaders in from three different invasions, which is what Cog was referring to. They were ejected, I think.

doesnt matter the password is being withheld from natives and residents (I refer to the people who were booted and returned who were natives at one point as residents) they are getting away with stuff an invader wouldnt be allowed to do, they are just as bad, Heck Iowa a Native didnt get the pw, and has been calling for the Defenders to Leave, I get this from reading the region for the last little while.

loop, stop it. -Iowa- has indeed gotten the password.

No, Iowa did get the password, as did the other natives.

I don't think that's true, Ackbar. Invaders can't ban natives that are in the region before they get there, but they could ban defenders or other invaders (who are technically considered invaders as well) that were not natives and in there before them.

I appreciate the attempt to get to the bottom of the issue. That said, and with no offence, I believe you are grossly mischaracterizing the situation. I know the US is allied with ADN, but as I know the situation Hrmmm is not a native. Certainly, as I know the situation, Hrmmm entered after Kerry. I can see if I have a timeline of when Hrmmm entered the region if you need me to, not sure if I have one or not.

But it seems like even you are saying if Hrmm came into the region after Kerry (who has been in the regions months now I believe), he can not ban him.

Kerry has been in the region a few days. Four or five. He was in East Pacific before that, taking it over for Farktopia or something. Not too clear on the details.

Kerry admitted he is an invader though, and Cog said invaders can be treated as invaders (I would expect the same for defenders) no matter when they entered the region. I actually thought that was always the case.

I posted the entrance order somewhere around here, also. And likewise, I appreciate your help. I've honestly been on here all day trying to make sure it stayed legal and to figure out exactly what was going on.

For the record, the ADN is not allied with US, but natives did ask us to come in and help get rid of the invaders as the third attack on them started yesterday.

Kerry has been in the region a few days. Four or five. He was in East Pacific before that, taking it over for Farktopia or something. Not too clear on the details.

Kerry has been in the region for months, and I likely have telgrams from different communications. I know that I was dupporting a couple of locals, and that the Tms from them are still there.

Kerry left the region 2-3 weeks ago for 2 days, then immediatly returned. Kerry was in there when Hrmmm entered the region, therefor it should be considered against rules for him to be banned.

For the record, the ADN is not allied with US, but natives did ask us to come in and help get rid of the invaders as the third attack on them started yesterday.

Sorry Pope, this is a lie. Go to your very website: http://www.freewebs.com/centralintelligence/allies.htm

See under the allies section, United States?

Sorry, to come into the forums and say you are not allied is nothing short but false.

In as unargumentative of a manner as I can approach this (very happy to have facts presented regarding any legality), I'll have to point out again that Kerry was still in there from the first invasion. Whether or not he was in there a few days before Hrmmm arrived isn't the issue (in my understanding), because he was an invader, not a native, and therefore does not get native priveliges.

Sorry to tell you this Iowa, but you aren't gonna get any help from the moderators because they're part of it.

For the record, the ADN is not allied with US, but natives did ask us to come in and help get rid of the invaders as the third attack on them started yesterday.

Sorry Pope, this is a lie. Go to your very website: http://www.freewebs.com/centralintelligence/allies.htm

See under the allies section, United States?

Sorry, to come into the forums and say you are not allied is nothing short but false.

That's a REGIONAL ally Ackbar. Regional allies of ADN members are not in the ADN by default

In as unargumentative of a manner as I can approach this (very happy to have facts presented regarding any legality), I'll have to point out again that Kerry was still in there from the first invasion. Whether or not he was in there a few days before Hrmmm arrived isn't the issue (in my understanding), because he was an invader, not a native, and therefore does not get native priveliges.

Well, you are wrong to how the game has always been played. Perhaps you are right with new rules, and a player who just entered the region can kick out players who were in there before hand. I think you are wrong, and Cog is mistaken, but I guess we will have to await mod response.


For the record, the ADN is not allied with US, but natives did ask us to come in and help get rid of the invaders as the third attack on them started yesterday.

Sorry Pope, this is a lie. Go to your very website: http://www.freewebs.com/centralintelligence/allies.htm

See under the allies section, United States?

Sorry, to come into the forums and say you are not allied is nothing short but false.

That's a REGIONAL ally Ackbar. Regional allies of ADN members are not in the ADN by default

Sorry if I am not reading the nuiances. I am simply reading the words. Perhaps if there are nuiances, they should be spelled out. All that happened above is Pope tried to prove my words false when I said they were allied (I mentioned nothing about being a member), and his very website contradicts his words. I ain't saying anything bad about him, I'm just saying.

He didn't say they were in the ADN, he said they were allies. Your lies are starting to catch up with you.

Ouch. Ackbar, please refrain from calling me a liar. In and out of character I value honesty very highly.

You are incorrect. The US is not allied with the ADN, I'm sorry but I know my alliance. I hate to cloud up the Moderation forum with this, but in my defense, this is the full list of ADN regions/allies:

Alcatraz
ZyzoxII
Nasicournia
Nasicournian Borderlands
A New Begining
The Province
The Inner Circle
Great Britain 3
Ireland
Middle Earth
Mirkwood
The Roman Raven Empire
The Grey Havens
Cannabis Island
Eastern European Alliance (joined Nasicournia)
The Coalition Forces Alliance
Kortania
Arrakis
The Roman Empire
Pelit
Alliance of Soviet Democracies
The Lost Empire
The West Pacific
The North Pacific
The Rejected Realms
RRA
Aldaria
Allied States of EuroIslanders
Sparrow
Central Intelligence Agency
The Trinity Sea
The Creature Isles
New Scotland
Gygaxia
Equilism
Greece
Ganchelkean States
Chapter X
Middle Earth
England
Mercia The Next Generation
The Commonwealth of Solaris
Calypso Entropia
The United Peoples of Abraham

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from speaking to or about me that way in the future. I don't lie. *Sigh*

Found here: http://s3.invisionfree.com/ADN/index.php?showtopic=12 on the ADN forum.

He didn't say they were in the ADN, he said they were allies. Your lies are starting to catch up with you.

:roll:

United States is allied with an ADN region, not with the ADN as a whole. Thus, the ADN did not act on behalf of an ally.

He didn't say they were in the ADN, he said they were allies. Your lies are starting to catch up with you.

Please quit persecuting me for trying to get to the bottom of this. I'm not even the delegate in US, didn't tell anyone to password the region in the first place, and quite honestly am not even Military-oriented. I'm Intel.

But I'm also the Director of the ADN, and I think I know who our allies are. Please address me with respect, as I'm only trying to do what's right here and don't deserve OOC attacks.

I don't lie. .

That's the biggest one you've told yet.

Respect? You're in the middle of griefing a region and humiliating the natives and you ask for respect?

Did you see the other forum where the natives thanked me for trying to help out?

Stop flamebaiting, please. :(

What natives are being humilated? Ackbar at least has legitimate issues concerning the interpretation of the invader/native rule, while you are doing nothing but attacking Pope Hope and trying to cause trouble.

The flame/flamebait stops now. All of you.

Which natives thanked you? From the looks of the board the natives that you didn't kick out aren't too happy.

Alright Nothingg...run a region, the only major Defender alliance in NS, and be one hell of a person...then you can talk on a level with Pope.

Until then, flame me. I guarantee it comes back double :lol:

Which natives thanked you? From the looks of the board the natives that you didn't kick out aren't too happy.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123430

And as for the "natives" who expressed opinions on the defense and bootings...almost none of them are real natives. They arrived before the invaders, at around the same time as my puppet, on opposite sides.

I think Karma asked for the flaming to stop.

If you're referring to my post, Nothingg, then I was writing it as Karma-whoever was posting it.

And I still consider you flaming Pope a capital offense, whereas me flaming you is insults among equals. If the mods object, let them.

That link shows 4 natives complaining about your invasion and your not giving out the password. Show me where 1 true native (besides DC, Andistine and Trekkers who were trying to overthrow the current delegate) is showing support for your attack. I don't care about the opinion of Johnny-come-latelys like Garrison either.

Everyone stop flaming. Forget who's on who's side, be nice.


Ouch. Ackbar, please refrain from calling me a liar. In and out of character I value honesty very highly.

You are incorrect. The US is not allied with the ADN, I'm sorry but I know my alliance. I hate to cloud up the Moderation forum with this, but in my defense, this is the full list of ADN regions/allies:

[United States not listed]



I would appreciate it if you would refrain from speaking to or about me that way in the future. I don't lie. *Sigh*

Found here: http://s3.invisionfree.com/ADN/index.php?showtopic=12 on the ADN forum.

First off, I am sorry if I misjudge your intentions, and for that I will easily and earnestly offer my apology. However, assuming not mis-intent by “correcting” my statement that you are allied with the US, you are saying that very thing to me—that I am misrepresenting the situation, almost suggesting that I am lying about the situation. Niceities aside, I still believe what you say is false.

You say the US is not allied with you. So, And is not associated with Central Intelligence? It looks like at http://www.freewebs.com/centralintelligence/allies.htm that you are allies with them. Listed in the regional descriptions, it looks like US is part of them.

Alright Nothingg...run a region, the only major Defender alliance in NS, and be one hell of a person...then you can talk on a level with Pope.

Until then, flame me. I guarantee it comes back double :lol:

So if we don't "run a region?" we don't have the right to talk to Pope. Nice.

Hey nothingg....there WAS no current delegate when the defenders came in...so no one was trying to overthrow the delegate ;)

Name one real native besides DC and Ben who even spoke up!

How about we just let the mods take care of this, eh?

Alright Nothingg...run a region, the only major Defender alliance in NS, and be one hell of a person...then you can talk on a level with Pope.

Until then, flame me. I guarantee it comes back double :lol:

So if we don't "run a region?" we don't have the right to talk to Pope. Nice.
No....you don't have the right to DISS her....there's a difference.

Now leave.

Hey nothingg....there WAS no current delegate when the defenders came in...so no one was trying to overthrow the delegate ;)

Name one real native besides DC and Ben who even spoke up!

Read that thread. How about Iowa, Anbar, Sicily Islands, etc.....

Don't avoid my question by asking another one.

*Sigh*

Yes, I think the Mods should handle it and we should all stop posting. Ackbar, I respect you and even consider you a friendly acquaintance. I didn't mean to imply that you were being dishonest either, just misinformed.

The CIA may be allied with the US, but that's of no matter to the ADN. Nasicournia is allied with Texas, but the ADN is not, and Texas is not even affiliated with the ADN. That's a minor detail and doesn't affect the ADN.

I'm being completely honest with you. The ADN is in no way, shape, or form allied with the US. Please ask a native for confirmation.

How about Iowa, Anbar, Sicily Islands, etc.....
Those guys endorsed Fark, for chrissake!! Fark came in with the intent of taking over the region. They're the least native of anyone in the place. Don't tell me any of Fark's endorsers are legit.

Ackbar- CIA is indeed allied with US, and CIA is part of ADN. However, that relationship between CIA and US has no bearing on ADN affairs.

If yo're going for a allied-by-association route, then sure, but the ADN has no ties with the region, though a member region does.

Read that thread. How about Iowa, Anbar, Sicily Islands, etc.....

Don't avoid my question by asking another one.

Anbar and Sicily Islands are decidely not natives. -Iowa- is questionable, but being treated as a native.

Can we all agree to let the Mods take over from here?

Alright Nothingg...run a region, the only major Defender alliance in NS, and be one hell of a person...then you can talk on a level with Pope.

Until then, flame me. I guarantee it comes back double :lol:

So if we don't "run a region?" we don't have the right to talk to Pope. Nice.
No....you don't have the right to DISS her....there's a difference.

Now leave.

I can call a spade a spade.

But you're missing the point. The natives (and I'm not claiming to be one of them) don't seem too happy with your little invasion. You can put on any mask you want, but you're still invaders and you have rules that you have to follow. Ackbar and I are 2 of the best invaders to ever play this game, and the reason we've been so successful is because we folow the rules to the letter.

Argyres and pope, good discussion and no hard feelings.

Brachycardian Cavemen, please stop trolling at the very least.

You lay off Pope and I will stop trolling...

you're laying off I see? We're cool then.

Again, though, and to get to the heart of this->

Kerry was in the region before the current DEl (back when Ben, who encouraged debate, was in charge), and the Del should not be able to ban Kerry. However I will await mod talk.

Ackbar and I are 2 of the best invaders to ever play this game

and so modest to :P

btw, good morning all..

cavemen, read your telegrams in five minutes please.
and furthermore..
what a big mess in there..

*wants to go back to bed*

But Kerry admits he invaded the region, therefore he can be ejected.

Anyway, good morning CG. :)

That link shows 4 natives complaining about your invasion and your not giving out the password. Show me where 1 true native (besides DC, Andistine and Trekkers who were trying to overthrow the current delegate) is showing support for your attack. I don't care about the opinion of Johnny-come-latelys like Garrison either.

I dont know why Trekkers is being taken so literally in all this, even when there was a legit native Delegate (Ben Franklin) trekekrs was trying to take over the region.

kinda screwy, if ya ask me.

Hey nothingg....there WAS no current delegate when the defenders came in...so no one was trying to overthrow the delegate ;)

Name one real native besides DC and Ben who even spoke up!

Ben Franklin would have returned to the Delegacy had the invasion not occured, so you were trying to take it over from him.

Also, I run the EP, can I talk to the Pope?

I've said exactly a few sentences to Trekkers about this whole thing, and it was all in regards to the FA trying to get us to endorse their chosen native. I haven't been referring to him at all.

But the whole thing is pretty screwy. I appreciate everyone who is trying to help in a respectful fashion. Thank you.

Ok this is something Im curious about.

How about Iowa, Anbar, Sicily Islands, etc.....
Those guys endorsed Fark, for chrissake!! Fark came in with the intent of taking over the region. They're the least native of anyone in the place. Don't tell me any of Fark's endorsers are legit.

Who Is Fark?
I dont think that there is a nation called Fark.

If the new invaders woudl jsut leave and let the natives be this would all be remedied, Personally I think teh mods shoudl clear the banlist and let the region heal itself, before a full griefing can occure, and by that I mean blasting and refounding.

There will be no blasting by the defenders, anyway, but you might be right about the course of action.

I also agree that the invaders should leave and let the natives work it out, but the natives have stated that they don't want the defenders (technically also invaders, yes) to leave until the invaders are all gone. They just want to elect their own delegate and have everyone let them be.

Also, I think he was referring to Farkopia.

Yeah they would have had their own Delegate had the Self Rightious Philistines not marched on the region.

Also I have been looking into it, and the only Locals saying good job are Trekkers, DC and a couple others, Four does not constitute a majority only a vocalisation, have you considered thta other natives are afraid to speak up for fear of Ejection? a couple of them have PMed me via the Ep asking for aid.

One even asked me for a custom flag saying
"Invaders go home with the names of some of the invaders listed on it."

Yeah they would have had their own Delegate had the Self Rightious Philistines not marched on the region.

Also I have been looking into it, and the only Locals saying good job are Trekkers, DC and a couple others, Four does not constitute a majority only a vocalisation, have you considered thta other natives are afraid to speak up for fear of Ejection? a couple of them have PMed me via the Ep asking for aid.

One even asked me for a custom flag saying
"Invaders go home with the names of some of the invaders listed on it."

How about Iowa, Anbar, Sicily Islands, etc.....
Those guys endorsed Fark, for chrissake!! Fark came in with the intent of taking over the region. They're the least native of anyone in the place. Don't tell me any of Fark's endorsers are legit.

WHAT?! Who exactly did Anbar endorse? Our endorsement is and always has been with Franklin. We did not put Architeuthis into power, if that's who you're referrring to. Or, let us guess, are you just some ADN grunt following orders? We've seen a lot of that over the last few days. And they keep telling us what's best for the region, though half don't even seem to know who they're fighting.

Again, under no basis are we not natives. We expect to be sent the password soon or we will file a moderator report. Natives cannot be stripped of their status by any allegations.

Read that thread. How about Iowa, Anbar, Sicily Islands, etc.....

Don't avoid my question by asking another one.

Anbar and Sicily Islands are decidely not natives. -Iowa- is questionable, but being treated as a native.

Can we all agree to let the Mods take over from here?

No, not when you're leaving your little allegations hanging. There is nothing that makes we of Anbar "decidedly not a native." We came in under a native delegate and did nothing whatsoever to remove him from power. We watched you people then decide to begin culling the regional population. We are now annoyed.

Anbar, you were the first person listed on the invader list, and it said you invaded with the French.

Loop, you're probably being contacted by the invaders masquerading as natives. They've flamed me acting like natives but that soon degenerates into the truth. Some of them have been in my invader profile for ages.

All I know is that the US was a very small region before the initial invaders came in. Scroll up and look at the time of entry post to see the time line of this. I know some natives came back after they were allowed in, but the natives have accounted for this...they know who their neighbors were.

I'm disappointed by the way people have spoken to each other today, and will probably stay away from the Military after this. It was my first real time following everything as it went a long, and I don't think it's really my thing.

BC is not a grunt. He's a valued member of the ADN and a friend.

Once again, here we are speculating and randomly throwing insults at each other, when none of us can do anything about it anyway.

I've tried to help everyone follow the rules and make sure the defenders did this legally. We all came in at the request of the natives, and seven defender groups (plus the FA with their own cause) deemed it honorable to help out. We did what we said we were going to do and continue to do so.

Invaders who came in during any of the previous invasions are not natives, as stated by Cog above. Hrmmm doesn't owe you any passwords. Most of you have left and come back several times as invaders anyway, still remaining invaders and not natives. If anything was done wrong I am sorry, but Hrmmm did the best he could to sort it out under the circumstances and I tried to help make sure it was done legally and in the best interest of the true natives of the region.

I really wish everyone could have kept the discussion more respectful. It's a tough one to sludge through and some people were really trying to help, but the unnecessary jabs and flames from others are the kind of things that make me want to give up sometimes. Can we just leave it to the Mods now? I really feel bad that they have to undertake this task. Granted we have less resources than they do, but I was on here all day and am still confused. I'm hoping this is good night for me. Good luck Mods. :)

Of course we were on the list of invaders, we were among the most vocally opposed to claims that Trekkers ought to be reinstated as delegate, in spite of his cheating. We are not, and never have been French, nor did use our endorsement to put an invader delegate into power. We tried to organize proceedings to remove Trekkers from the region in light of his behavior, so we can't imagine why we'd be at the top of that list... :roll:

It doesn't take a genius to figure out. Any opposition they have in the region is on that list, and any natives who continue to speak out move down to "probably invader" status. You are griefing the region on behalf of Trekkers and the FA, and it is illegal. We demand our password.

You keep citing these ambiguous "past invasions," so what are they? Who were the delegates? What group did these invasions? You don't know, and that is not good enough for us.

We are not going to relent because certain nations cannot handle the pressue of this. Youre griefing a large region, and would be fools to expect any less of a backlash. We will not flame, but we're not in a particularly nice mood either. Being blacklisted, booted, and banned will do that.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out. Any opposition they have in the region is on that list, and any natives who continue to speak out move down to "probably invader" status. You are griefing the region on behalf of Trekkers and the FA, and it is illegal. We demand our password.

How many times have I mentioned we're not doing anything on behalf of Trekkers or the FA? Honestly, the FA President, Mes, was mad at me today for not endorsing who they wanted to. That's all the contact I had with him. If we had, you wouldn't be throwing a fit, which is ironic in itself.

And I do know about the past invasions, as does everyone else, because they were quite public. 1) The French, 2) Arch, 3) Farkers and people left over from last two invasions.

I'm too tired to argue with you anymore. You're obviously going to insist that you're a native just because you let your nation sit there for awhile after the invasions, endorsing the invaders.

For the record, I don't have the password, and it wasn't my idea to set one at all. So even if you hadn't previously been on my own list of invaders even before US, I couldn't give you the password anyway. I was just watching this whole thing, concerned about the legality and the fairness in the way it was handled. Please don't hold me personally responsible. There were seven defender groups and at least 50 of their UN nations involved altogether.

in light of all of the hogwashing going on, here is the Falg a undisclosed native asked me to make,

http://invisionfree.com/forums/The_East_Pacific/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=2577

again if your name is on the list, dont be insulted at me I am using the list and wordings I was told to use.

if the requestor doesnt want to wear it I can understand as it will most likely get hm booted, I had made it look like marble but it was too big, so I went for a simple B&W.

Enjoy!

Woohoo! I think this round goes to Pope Hope!! Her well-written, logical arguement is replied to by....a flag?

I'm almost tempted to tell you guys to give her some respect again. Explain how that flag proves that you're right?

Woohoo! I think this round goes to Pope Hope!! Her well-written, logical arguement is replied to by....a flag?

I'm almost tempted to tell you guys to give her some respect again. Explain how that flag proves that you're right?

No that flag is what I was requested to make,
your flaming is unappreciated, you have been warned once already havnt you?

and if you think this is a winning round by round think you sorely misunderstand the concept of Debate. it isnt about winning, it is about solving problems, and for someone who picks on Flag Thief, you get no respect, she was having fun, and you attacked her. bad game fella.

I had no idea who Flag Theif was, 'til PH told me. And I didn't actually attack her, I merely told her I couldn't let her in. And I appologized to her later. So Flag Theif has nothing to do with this.

that was mild flame there, if it counts as flame at all. You wanna see some nasty flame, check some threads here:

http://www.lifeisannoying.com/forum/index

And I have been warned once, but until I get a personal warning from a Mod, siding with a friend is more important than pleasing some higher being who has no time for sh*t like me.

The best way to "solve problems" would be to let the ADN go about their business as they have been doing, and doing well, for months now.

Sorry I just cannot tolerate injsutice being done,the US seperated itself from the ADN, and you are having to bring them back into the fold by force, not a good show dude.

the best thing would be to let the US go and forget it so it can develope into the super region it deserves to be, not the lapdog of the ADN, just think, the US could easily rival Europe in size and prestige, but you guys wont let it.

Also as PH is a friend to you and someone you defend, Flag Theif is a Friend to me and I will defend her, You are the only person to give her grief during her stint as the most interesting non argument thing in the game and deny her a theft.

Im finished on this part of this subject. I now return you to your regularly schedualed Debate.

Sorry I just cannot tolerate injsutice being done,the US seperated itself from the ADN, and you are having to bring them back into the fold by force, not a good show dude.
Farktopia entered the region attempting to take the region. We showed up, everything played out from there. I think it's a greater injustice to be lorded over by Farktopia than to be in limbo for two or three days.

the best thing would be to let the US go and forget it so it can develope into the super region it deserves to be, not the lapdog of the ADN, just think, the US could easily rival Europe in size and prestige, but you guys wont let it.
I can assure you that as soon as this situation is over, we will let the US go, just like we have every other region that we've defended.

Also as PH is a friend to you and someone you defend, Flag Theif is a Friend to me and I will defend her
Fair enough. I actually don't have anything against Flag Theif.

You are the only person to give her grief during her stint as the most interesting non argument thing in the game and deny her a theft.
She asked for the password. I've been told numerous times never to give out the password, so I didn't. And any grief that I may have given her, I appologized for in her thread. If she's reading this, she'll be happy to know that I still feel bad about making her feel like she's gotten grief.

Im finished on this part of this subject. I now return you to your regularly schedualed Debate.
Yes...best not to debate Flag Thief in a thread about the ADN.... :D

It doesn't take a genius to figure out. Any opposition they have in the region is on that list, and any natives who continue to speak out move down to "probably invader" status. You are griefing the region on behalf of Trekkers and the FA, and it is illegal. We demand our password.

How many times have I mentioned we're not doing anything on behalf of Trekkers or the FA? Honestly, the FA President, Mes, was mad at me today for not endorsing who they wanted to. That's all the contact I had with him. If we had, you wouldn't be throwing a fit, which is ironic in itself.

We're not talking about direct action on their behalf. We're talking about their ends being met conveniently by the "defender" delegate. I don't care if it's deliberate or not - that's what being done.

And I do know about the past invasions, as does everyone else, because they were quite public. 1) The French, 2) Arch, 3) Farkers and people left over from last two invasions.

So, perhaps you'll point out which we were. We're not French, nor have we ever been, and they didn't seem to have a delegate. Some imvasion force, huh? So that's BS and a transparent excuse. We already stated that Architeuthis did not have our support when he took over, so it looks like that's BS too. Finally, we certainly never endorsed this "Fark" person who no one seems to be able to name anyway.

You have some vague ideas of some bogeymen cooked up by some irate tin-pot dictators. Is that good enough for you to have a clear conscience over griefing an entire region? And you say that you're with an intel branch of something?

I'm too tired to argue with you anymore. You're obviously going to insist that you're a native just because you let your nation sit there for awhile after the invasions, endorsing the invaders.

So we didn't actually invade, but we're an invader. Sound logic you've got there. Go ahead, tell us who we endorsed. You say that we sat there endorsing invaders - who would that be? Or are you ready to admit that you don't know what you're talking about? You seem to be at a loss for any other words, being that you've been looping answers for some time now.

For the record, I don't have the password, and it wasn't my idea to set one at all. So even if you hadn't previously been on my own list of invaders even before US, I couldn't give you the password anyway. I was just watching this whole thing, concerned about the legality and the fairness in the way it was handled. Please don't hold me personally responsible. There were seven defender groups and at least 50 of their UN nations involved altogether.

You're the voice of accusation here, and hence, for the purposes of this thread, you will be as accountable as anyone else who pipes up here. The password is illegal, as the mods have just ruled. Thusly, you are either ignorant of those very rules that you claimed were so important to you, or that was a line of bull.

i think it's really sweet of you to stand up for me as flag thief, loop, and i do consider you a friend too :wink:

but caveman really didn't cause me any grief, i was just teasing him a bit, and almost fell of my chair laughing when i read the telegrams he sent me.
he's very protective of nasicournia and pope hope, and she's lucky to have him around ;)

okay, and that was enough off-topic stuff..

as for the US, as soon as the invaders are gone, the defenders will leave, and will let the natives themselves decide who they want for delegate.

Invaders from a first invasion are not accorded native rights in the event of a second invasion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

In that case the mods have changed the rules. According to Neut defenders are invaders, and have to follow certain guidelines (I mention this because he said this recently).

Also, I’ve been in this game for a while, and I cam assure the rule has always been that if defenders or another invader group came in they can not hide behind the blanket of native rule—which means they can not ban anyone that was in the region before them.

So what you are saying, Cog, is invaders can’t ban anyone who is in the regione before them, but defenders can come in and ban anyone they want. Not only is this rule inconsistent, it is discouraging to see the game turning such a dishonest route. More and more “invasions” will only exist in theory and in griefings.

I miss it when Max used to make up the rules. No offence, but it’s true. Rules are becoming more and more conveniently anti-legal invader.

First, I'll state that it's possible for me to make mistakes. It's happened before in both real-life and in the performance of my duties as Moderator. So, I'll try to double-check this.

Second, I don't see anything contradictory about this. Invaders are not accorded native rights, so invaders can be permanently banned. However, Defenders are also Invaders (just with a different name and purpose) and are also not accorded native rights. Thus, Defenders can be permanently banned.

Invaders can ban defenders, defenders can ban invaders, but nobody can ban natives*.

Again, I’ll have to check with the other Moderators as I’m not clear on whether Neut’s original ruling allowed a second invader group to permanently ban a first invader group. For now, the temporary ruling is that no invaders of any kind (invaders, defenders, or aliens from Mars) are accorded native rights and all invaders of all kinds may be permanently banned unless someone can link me to a topic where another mod made a clear ruling on this?

* Unless a native starts getting out-of-line such as spamming or flaming, but let's not add any mroe complications, okay? We have enough complications.

If you're referring to my post, Nothingg, then I was writing it as Karma-whoever was posting it.

And I still consider you flaming Pope a capital offense, whereas me flaming you is insults among equals. If the mods object, let them.

I object.

Flaming is flaming.

...

Now, do I really have to start issuing official warnings? :evil:

"Think about it for a moment."

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

Again, I’ll have to check with the other Moderators as I’m not clear on whether Neut’s original ruling allowed a second invader group to permanently ban a first invader group. For now, the temporary ruling is that no invaders of any kind (invaders, defenders, or aliens from Mars) are accorded native rights and all invaders of all kinds may be permanently banned unless someone can link me to a topic where another mod made a clear ruling on this?


Thank you very much for checking on this. New rules do happen from thread to thread, so I certainly miss some. I can tell you at one point in time, with absolute certainy that the ruling was that it was a first-come first serve basis. The last to enter, could not ban those their before them, period. Went for defenders and invaders. I apprecaite you checking up on this though.

Cogitation, I was a Legitimate Settler in the region United States, and even told Hrmmm so in telegram as advised by Democratic Colonies.
and he STILL banned me, he even said he would in a thread in Gameplay where I also posted.

I humbly request Justice, these guys are just invaders and should be delt with. They don't have the right to decide who is allowed to remain in the region.

they are going to Kill the region so that they can refound it and fully lock it into their iron graspe of oppression.

Thank you.
AF

Cogitation, I was a Legitimate Settler in the region United States, and even told Hrmmm so in telegram as advised by Democratic Colonies.
and he STILL banned me, he even said he would in a thread in Gameplay where I also posted.

I humbly request Justice, these guys are just invaders and should be delt with. They don't have the right to decide who is allowed to remain in the region.

they are going to Kill the region so that they can refound it and fully lock it into their iron graspe of oppression.

Thank you.
AF

Can someone PLEASE explain as clearly as possible WHO the original delegate was before ANY of the invasions, WHEN Architeuthis arrived, etc.? There are about fifteen complaints in the Mod queue on this mess from all angles, and it would help me and others to know exactly who is who. Are there any ORIGINAL UNDISPUTED NATIVES of United States still following this thread tonight? If so, I would like to hear from you.

Ineptia

Can someone PLEASE explain as clearly as possible WHO the original delegate was before ANY of the invasions, WHEN Architeuthis arrived, etc.? There are about fifteen complaints in the Mod queue on this mess from all angles, and it would help me and others to know exactly who is who. Are there any ORIGINAL UNDISPUTED NATIVES of United States still following this thread tonight? If so, I would like to hear from you.

Ineptia

please check your messages on the Heartland board.

I also agree that the invaders should leave and let the natives work it out, but the natives have stated that they don't want the defenders (technically also invaders, yes) to leave until the invaders are all gone. They just want to elect their own delegate and have everyone let them be.

This is not accurate. I would like them to leave now and I've said as much and I said as much when they entered the region. I believe that most of the folks here have good intentions, but it's time for them to go and let us work things out ourselves.

Can someone PLEASE explain as clearly as possible WHO the original delegate was before ANY of the invasions, WHEN Architeuthis arrived, etc.?

That would be me, I became delegate after Of The People was deleted for cheating.

Ben should be considered an invader delegate

Region: United States
Delegate: Benjamin Franklin
Endorsements Received: 9 (-Iowa-, Kansas City Kitty, Teddy Roosevelt, Kevin Wood, The Way Side, The Thomas Jefferson, Dolesville, Architeuthis, Nothingg)



At the time Trekkers had 7 endorsements, Ben was about 15 days inactive if the invaders hadn't been there he would've lost the delegacy.


Also Loop what interest do you have in the matter, I already told everyone that I kicked the French out in the first invasion but why do you care about the region?

Ben Franklin: I think I've been mainly talking to the other undisputed natives. lol We were told to stay until all of the invaders were gone and everything was settled, so that you guys could fairly elect your own delegate.

mattcorp:cosmicstarlight:liberal_liberals:air_strip_two:kucinich:
major_tom:-iowa-:teddy:kevin_wood:bozo2:peacetopia:freddy_vs_jason:
benjamin_franklin:moderator_malice:shanghaisville:democratic_colonies:
musez:the_mustang:teddy_roosevelt:kansas_city_kitty:church_and_state:
the_way_side:andrew_jackson:the_thomas_jefferson:
ulysses_s_grant:the_early_french:the_aquatic_french:
the_louisiana_purchase:john_kerry:the_french_mistake:
afghani_poppy_farmers:dolesville:viti-3:andistine:trekkers:
le_french_stereotypes:of_the_people_q:renamon:grey_poupon:
ackbar1001:nothingg:otto_skorzeny:the_ns_invaders:archerutis:
the_orion_nebula:architeuthis:scurvy_people:of_the_people- u:
francophonies:french_supremacy:liberated_womyn:sea_king:
existential_blues:benwah:dunkelheit:stalingradski

That is the ordered list of entry as of January 7th as provided by CG. Art Frahm you did come in with the invaders later, as it appears? If I could ask, where were you before this? I think I saw you somewhere but would have to look into it a little more.

Also, no one is going to clear and re-found the region. That's not an issue from the defenders, and the Mods are now carefully watching the situation.

Does anyone know who the original delegates of United States were, before all of this happened? Was it Ben, Trekkers, or was there someone before any invading happened at all?

I think it's well known by objective outside parties that the defenders are trying very hard to keep this legal. As for my own defender friends in United States, I know that they would rather be off on other business or home in their own regions. None of the defender organizations involved have intent to stay in the region.

Ben, do you have your own list of natives to rival DC's, or does yours agree with his?

And please everyone, refrain from flaming or flamebaiting. I stopped posting here and in the other thread because it was getting so bad.

Hi, sorry I've been out of town for a few days. I would like to respond to Ineptia asking for the series of events in the region. From someone who has been a native for quite a while:

Initially the United States was headed by Of the People. He was deleted for being a multi. The region was under a password when he was deleted because he kept the region locked down all of the time. At that time Benjamin Franklin was elected delegate. Notice that the region was locked down (passworded) when Ben was elected delegate therefore Ben had to be a natively elected delegate.

After Ben was elected delegate he opened up the region by supplying the password to a lot of nations. Different nations from different parts of the game came into the region. Among these was Architeuthis, Anbar, and other nations.These nations added their endorsments to Ben and hung around the region for months before Architeuthis became the delegate(This seems like it wouldn't be an invasion but evidently some people are claiming it is because of these nations background).

Architeuthis was threatened becuase he was called an invader (I don't think so but...) and therefore had to open up the region and remove the password. During this time the region was continually attacked almost daily with new nations trying to come into the region to take it over and their subsequent booting. A few days of this and Architeuthis was deleted. To the best of my knowledge he did not boot any natives (people who came before him) and anyone that did get booted that had been there for a while was immediately removed from the ban list.

Then Architeuthis was deleted, I assume that some nation complained about all the booting. Then the region was flooded that same day (doubled in size) with "Defenders". The defenders took the delegate seat and then indicated they would be booting everyone who was an invaders. At the time that sounded like that was everyone who endorsed Architeuthis however I'm still there as well as Ben so I know that didn't happen. In any case, up until last Friday at about noon that was the case.

I don't know what's happend since Friday but it looks ugly. Oh, and I am the one who asked for moderator intervention if any bootings started so it wasn't just DC and Ben who were complaining.

Does anyone know who the original delegates of United States were, before all of this happened? Was it Ben, Trekkers, or was there someone before any invading happened at all?

Of The People was the delegate for a long while until he was deleted for being a multie. Then it was me and then Architeuthis. I don't remember if there was a delegate before OTP. Trekkers was never delegate.

Ben, do you have your own list of natives to rival DC's, or does yours agree with his?

I've posted the corrections that I'm confident of, mainly The Way Side, Dolesville and Church and State should be considered natives in my estimation.

I think that there were some other calls that I thought were questionable, but since I don't know everything that went on while I was away there might be good reasons for them.

I do find the structure of the list offensive. The question at hand is who is a native and who isn't. The decisions that people made as to who to support or any opinions that they stated should be irrelevant to this question. To categorize people by their beliefs is fundamentally un-American and as I've said before, McCarthy-esque.

And please everyone, refrain from flaming or flamebaiting. I stopped posting here and in the other thread because it was getting so bad.

Please understand that this is an emotional issue for a lot of folks and they will probably do or say things in the heat of the moment that they might not otherwise.

Thanks for the clarification.

As for this:

Please understand that this is an emotional issue for a lot of folks and they will probably do or say things in the heat of the moment that they might not otherwise.

I do understand. My own region is quite old and thus didn't have me as Founder in place for awhile...we've been through several invasion attempts, and have been defended by outsiders as well. It was quite emotional for us to see our region in an uproar, but in the end the defenders and natives worked together much like this to get things back to normal as soon as possible. Of course in those situations things weren't as sticky, because I knew for sure who the natives were. Fortunately no Nasis flamed anyone, because we had experience and knew that in order to have the rules quickly enforced, we had to obey the rules as well. That doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of venting on the offsite boards, though. ;)

I think it seems like things are finally ironing out for you and your region. I wish you the best of luck, and applaud those who have truly put effort into keeping everything as fair as possible under the circumstances. I've seen the endorsement count and it looks like the natives are already electing their native delegate. Best wishes to you all. :)

well lets put it this way For the Record,


United States

World Factbook Entry: If you don't wanna hear us, well, change the station; Boo! I sneak in your mind your mind; Sink in your mind, creep from behind; So fast that you won't have time; To deny a brother that's from the streets; Tryin to teach, hopin to reach; Yo, 187's not one that's known to preach; But I wish for each to have FREEDOM OF SPEECH. I have temporarily placed a password on this region. It will be lifted ASAP. Telegram me if you require the password.

UN Delegate: The Dazed and Confused Nation of Hrmmm.

Founder: Malagana

United States contains 60 nations. [List all nations]


the Founder Malagana is Dead, if this spot of founder is replaced then we will have proof posative of Griefing.

I also highlighted the illegal statement in the factbook.
this screen cap was taken just before this post was made.

Personally I suggest the Mods lift the PW, lock out delegate access to regional controls and leave it that way till the invaders and their delegate is gone and the true delegate Ben Franklin is back in power.

and i still ask..did Hrmmm put up that WFE, or is it the one Arch... put up?

Personally I suggest the Mods lift the PW, lock out delegate access to regional controls and leave it that way till the invaders and their delegate is gone and the true delegate Ben Franklin is back in power.
I think that blocking delegate access without a founder physically present in the region is not possible. Sort of like things falling up, or heat moving froma cold object to a hot one in the physcial world. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure.

Of course, they could put a temporary founder in place and block the delegate that way.

Also, once again as I've said, Hrmmm has given the password to the natives. I believe he did put that in the WFE, but it was for late defender troops that were coming in. He began distributing the password to natives shortly after password protecting the region, which has been stated many times. Note the discussions in both of these threads between natives trying to decide if anyone else needed the password.

Also, once again as I've said, Hrmmm has given the password to the natives. I believe he did put that in the WFE, but it was for late defender troops that were coming in. He began distributing the password to natives shortly after password protecting the region, which has been stated many times. Note the discussions in both of these threads between natives trying to decide if anyone else needed the password.

But you don't know who the natives are, and have admitted that many times in the past. Hence, this is a lie, or at very least misleading.

Well, he's going off of both the entrance list and what the natives tell him. I assure you it's not a lie. He really is trying very hard to make sure all true natives are included.

If anything, it's a good thing that the two groups of natives disagree about some things, for they've been able to look at who each group of natives consider natives as well and this way no one gets left out because of a regional politics situation.

(Did that make sense?)

and i still ask..did Hrmmm put up that WFE, or is it the one Arch... put up?
the first half the freestyle rap is Architeuthis'
the password part is Hrmmm's
I figure he left Architeuthis' part up so he could claim that the password part was written by Architeuthis, not smart considering that the mods made Architeuthis take the password down a few days prior to deleting him.

That's untrue. Hrmmm has left the WFE of every region he has defended alone...and that's been 6 or 7 in the last week and a half or so. Why does everything have to be some evil plot to break the rules?

Well, he's going off of both the entrance list and what the natives tell him. I assure you it's not a lie. He really is trying very hard to make sure all true natives are included.

If anything, it's a good thing that the two groups of natives disagree about some things, for they've been able to look at who each group of natives consider natives as well and this way no one gets left out because of a regional politics situation.

(Did that make sense?)

In a way. You're still picking and choosing your "natives," and thusly eliminating any viewpoint except those who happen to be pulling the strings (and those hoping to not be in the next batch of ejections). We can accept that you still, somehow, do not understand this, and hope that once you leave things will be sorted out.

Our point is that your methodology is flawed, and yet you continue onward as if it were not. The statements "We aren't sure who the natives are" and "All natives have been telegrammed the password" are mutually exclusive.

That's untrue. Hrmmm has left the WFE of every region he has defended alone...and that's been 6 or 7 in the last week and a half or so. Why does everything have to be some evil plot to break the rules?

Hrmmm put that up as soon as he took office, dont try to throw blame for his cheating on others.

and i still ask..did Hrmmm put up that WFE, or is it the one Arch... put up?

Arch didn't put a password in place. This is the reason I was endorsing him in the first place.

Edited: Some other stuff that may be considered as inflammatory. TR

Edited: Some other stuff that may be considered as inflammatory. Removed becuase there really are no hard facts in the post, just emotion. TR

This is being looked into by the Mods. Please quit making accusations against one group or another that you cannot prove. It doesn't help anything. Yes there's a lot of emotion here, but if it continues to be groups yelling back and forth I'll lock and sticky this thread and continue via Telegrams, and I really don't want to do things that way.

Please, if you don't have hard facts or valuable observations to add, don't keep posting. We're not going to forget about this situation.

Ok...now for my 2 cents:


I NEVER stated that it was a first come, first serve basis. And it never was. Neither Invaders nor Defenders have ever been accorded the rights of Natives - regardless of which group entered a region first. Period.


Cog is right. I do so wish everyone would stop trying to walk over him. He is a Game Moderator, and what he says goes. He made a ruling, and it was completely ignored, and I even saw a post in response to it claiming that the poster would await a Mod response.



Now, the rules state that natives must be given the password immediately - however, there are always extenuating circumstances - for example, this situation where there have been 3-4 different groups move in and vy for control of this region. Therefore, I think it is only fair to allow those currently in the delegate position time to distinguish between native and invader/defender nations. Or is it simply too damn much to ask that everyone play nice?

Normally, I wouldnt care so much, but there have been 6 pages of nations bitching at each other - every group trying to twist the others' claims and comments to fit their own petty agendas - even after 3-4 other Mods have posted here that it needs to be cut out. Can we all just play with a little more nobility/honor/etc. and figure out who is a TRUE NATIVE and who isnt?

It seems this sunflower grew a coconut.

Aside from all the spirited depate, I still want to know if there two sets of invaders A (first invaders) and B (Defenders), can group B ban members of group A? According to how I understand Loops post, no, since they can not be appointed the rights of natives. Just trying to get it back on track, thanks a lot.

Cog is right. I do so wish everyone would stop trying to walk over him.

People have been walking all over me? I really need to pay more attention to this thread. :lol:

Seriously, though, I don't have time to reread the whole thing.

Aside from all the spirited depate, I still want to know if there two sets of invaders A (first invaders) and B (Defenders), can group B ban members of group A? According to how I understand Loops post, no, since they can not be appointed the rights of natives. Just trying to get it back on track, thanks a lot.

Any invaders may permanently ban any other invaders. B may ban A. A may ban B. C may ban A and B. A and B can ban C. E, F, G, and M may be banned by A, B, C, D, G, L, K, and Z. Ad nauseam.

Clear? :)

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

Thanks, Cog. I guess my post wasnt clear on that. I figured this line:

Neither Invaders nor Defenders have ever been accorded the rights of Natives - regardless of which group entered a region first. Period.


would clear it up. Apparently I need to be posting on a lower level than I was.

What Loop says is SPECULATION, not a rule. A MOD's word overrules Loop's any day, and I believe Loop needs to research what he's claiming because HE'S WRONG, and this is exactly why we ask players to NOT post on threads needing a MODERATOR ruling.

New development. Hrmmmm (invader delegate) has now kicked Ben (native) who was the leader in endorsements. He has unbanned him so it isn't griefing yet however If the moderators could keep an eye on this situation it would be appreciated. Thank you.

Yes this is now a griefing, Please see my post in the gameplay forum on the same topic, teh Moment Htmmm booted the Favored Local Delegate to be, He became a Griefer.

and will remain one until its end of days.


Mods Please deal with him as you would any other Griefer.

Although I had nothing to do with the decision to eject Ben from US, I believe that the immediate unbanning (and the fact that he has the password) makes the ejection by definition within legal parameters. However as always, Mod confirmation is needed...I'm only replying because I see more definitive phrases of "this is griefing" being used, and by my understanding of the rules it is not.

I believe the plan of the defender delegate is to vacate the region as soon as the election is fairly completed, as already more troops have been recalled.

Yes this is now a griefing, Please see my post in the gameplay forum on the same topic, teh Moment Htmmm booted the Favored Local Delegate to be, He became a Griefer.

and will remain one until its end of days.

Mods Please deal with him as you would any other Griefer.

[Emphasis mine.]

What are you talking about? "Benjamin Franklin" was removed from the banlist literally 10 seconds after being ejected. If he was a native who was kept on the banlist, then it would be griefing.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

Yes this is now a griefing, Please see my post in the gameplay forum on the same topic, teh Moment Htmmm booted the Favored Local Delegate to be, He became a Griefer.

and will remain one until its end of days.


Mods Please deal with him as you would any other Griefer.

Would you STOP attempting to enforce the rules? You are NOT a Moderator, and your current understanding of the rules concerning invasions is hardly adequate to be claiming one invasion was illegal or not. For the past few weeks, I've been explaining over and again the rules concerning invasions, and yet you continue to ignore what the Mods have posted as the rules. Why?