NationStates Jolt Archive

I woke up this morning to find out that my nations in Central Asia, Karnemelk and Jewelste, were deleted. I can't make sense of the moderator's motivation for that decision, though.

I'll tell the story right from the beginning. A few weeks ago, me and my friends from Bokrijk, decided to invade Central Asia. The region was almost empty back then. We intended to make Central Asia into a "Bokrijk Colony".

However, our attempts were thwarted by so called antis. We got kicked from the region. Fair enough.

One of us, I Principi (or one of his puppets), filed a report against the antis in reaction. !!I don't know what was in that report!!, but at least one of the defenders (Ostendt) got kicked from the UN as a consequence .

And we moved in again. We, that is: Karnemelk and Black&Blue Army. B&B became the regional delegate, and Bokrijk had its first colony.

Now, two or three weeks later, Karnemelk, Jewelste and Black&Blue Army have been deleted without warning. For filing a fraudulent mod report. But none of us filed any report. I Principi (or one of his puppets) did, but I don't know if it was filed with fraudulent intention.

In any case, I don't see how Karnemelk, Jewelste or B&B should take the blame. Ok, we invaded. But that's not against the rules, is it? There was no griefing.

I'm confident that the moderators will revise their decision, as I am absolutely positively 100% sure i did nothing wrong, nothing that crosses the line, or even comes near the line.

(edit: corrected some spelling errors)

Central Asia
World Factbook Entry: Due to the fradulent filing of a mod report with the intention of getting an innocent nation deleted, this region has been rolled back. Had the invasions never happened, Rafta would have been the only nation left in this region, and would have been able to re-found at their leasure. Therefore, they have been granted Founder rights. The Mod Center is not the place to work the mechanations of personal revenge, it is for filing help against rule breaking. The punishment that was decided upon was deletion of the original invader force.

UN Delegate: None.

Founder: The Republic of Rafta



12 hours ago NationStates Moderators This is not "Moderation without rule violation", this is delayed justice for the filing of an intentionally fradulent help request.

48 minutes ago NationStates Moderators The nations that were deleted were those who were part of the original invasion force, as it is explicitly stated in the World Factbook Entry. The report was indeed fradulent as it was an attempt to have a nation punished for acting against the invasion group. It was decided between several mods that this was the appropriate course of action.

I (sterretje) can read allright. But i don't understand. If someone posts a fraudulent mod report, why should I take the blame? Tell me what i did wrong.

That is the exact question I am asking: what did I do that is grounds for deletion?

I'd like to add that Jewelste was not a UN member - never has been. So how could Jewelste be part of an invasion force?

if you really didn't know anything about the false report he sent, then i have to agree that it wasn't really fair to delete you as well..

ik ga mezelf later hiervoor haten, bedank O. maar

I, Ostendt ,was the first victim of this false report...
Lost my UN, but got it back.....So case closed. (thanks for that)

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113061

Now we have this situation...again Central Asia.
Same false report.
Three nations are deleted... and one of them claimes that he/she...didnt know what was inside that report.

And strangly enough I believe Sterretje/Annelenistan.

Karnemelk was part of this invasion...I was defending.
Thats a part of this game, nothing wrong with that.

When I read all this stuff that she/he posted today on different chq and inhere,
Then i have one question...Is the nation that posted this false report also deleted?
And If not...and Sterretje/annelenistan is telling the truth........???????
Is this fair?

Ostendt

Thanks, ostendt, I really appreciate this. I Principi (or one of his puppets) publicly admitted that he filed the report the mods consider to be intentionally fraudulent.

I'm not defending nor accusing I Principi. I don't know what was in the report. This thread is not about that report. This thread is about Karnemelk, Jewelste and Black&Blue Army getting deleted for something they had nothing to do with.

I really wished the mods would talk to the people involved before taking such drastic measures.

I don't like ostendt and he doesn't like me, but still he sides with me on this thing. I think that says something.

You assisted in the setup of Ostente, therefore, you are just as guilty as the person who filed the report.

Similar to a griefing invasion. Those that assist in taking over the region are just as guilty as the delegate who does the kicking.

You assisted in the setup of Ostendt

How so? I didn't know what was in that report, nor did Black&Blue. You just assume we knew. I think we deserve the benefit of the doubt here. Especially because we didn't know about it.

Anyways, if you moderators are so very thorough that you punish anyone that could possibly be linked to a supposed violation of a rule:

!?!why didn't you take action against the person who filed the report!?! :shock:

Can't you just admit you made a mistake here?

i want to react as well. i'm in this on the side of ostendt and belgium.
but i know annelenistan/karnemelk/b&b army are not guilty of the report. they were involved in the invasion, but the invasion and the counter invasion were perfectly legal. the only wrong thing was the report. and the deleted nations didn't knew about the report. as said, it was an other one who filed the report. apparently without notifying the others. at least no one can proof that they knew about it. and i hope no one here gets deleted before their guilt is clear. they profitted from the first decision of hack by moving into central asia again, but i can't see anything illegal in this. so i guess the only reason was the report. from another nation. who didn't got deleted.
there is a big difference in assisting in an invasion and assisting in a false report.

I'd like to get this straight: I knew about the mod report (afterwards), I didn't know what was in it. I Principi told Black&Blue army and me that he suspected the defenders of multying, and therefore he had filed a report. Ostendt lost UN membership after that.

None of us felt any regret at that, since Ostendt had thwarted several invasions of ours, and now it appeared that he was cheating (at least, that is wat we thought). I've always thought the mod report I Principi sent, contained a simple request for a multi check on the defenders. Note that I heard about the mod report against Ostendt only well after it was filed!

I don't understand why this issue, after two weeks of neglect, suddenly yesterday became so very urgent that (innocent!) nations should be deleted without asking questions or giving a warning.

So,...... there is one nation in this topic who is not saying "one" word about this situation.

"I Principi" or one of his "Puppets" ; the poster of the false report.

Why is he keeping quiet!?

I do not mind that Bokrijk is a imperialistic region and tries to invade a region...; that is a part of this game....cheating isnt.

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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #24 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 1:49pm »

on Jan 9th, 2004, 12:49pm, Admin wrote:I don't know what happened in Central Asia, as I was asleep, but yesterday night Ostendt was already recruiting in Belgium for UN-nations.

Are you America BG and if so, do you understand dutch then?
Anyway I saw it too but hoped he wasn't talking about us again. Since Central Asia has nothing to do with Belgium, at least I think so and we have the right to become delegate in a region without any delegate or founder and with only two dead puppets.

Ostendt really plans on making life difficult for us, but this only strengthens my will to take him down.
REVENGE !!!

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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #27 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 3:03pm »

on Jan 9th, 2004, 2:08pm, Ummirika wrote:What do you think of setting up a trap for ostendt. We just seek a pro-bokrijk, anti-belgium-region, which Ostendt doesnt know about. We fake invasion and if ostendt reacts, tries to seize the delegate chair, just let the founder say that he is not wished here and he considers it an attack. And if he wanted help, he would have asked.
That way he could understand that he doesnt heve to react if noone complains, like in central asia.

Yes but what region is pro-Bokrijk en anti-Belgium that they don't know about?
Allthough it would be nice to trap him, maybe even be able to complain with the mods about that damn invader Ostendt

Btw, Ward, Boogie and myself are all working on ties with other invader regions.

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I Principi
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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #29 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 3:05pm »

My idea was Benelux. I've had some contact with the founder some time ago, and it might work out. I'll ask him about it, but I'm quite positive.

And it's a region which is interesting to Belgium.

Even worse, if he wins, and we are with three or something, and the founder would press charges (if that is correct ) for griefing, when Ostendt kicks us all, we could get rid of him

And can't we get a mod-report on Ostendt for Central Asia? He just kicked us out, and banned us. But you'll have to write it, as victims... It would strengthen our great mod-report as well, when the invasion in Benelux works out.
« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2004, 3:18pm by I Principi »

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wow, where did you get this! (btw, this is riemstagrad speaking..) won't you tell who your spy is? very usefull for belgium :p

back on topic now. what does this proof?

That proves that the entire reason for the invasion was to set up Belgium in general, and Ostendt in particular.

Since the "invasion" was simply done to bring in defenders, the whole thing was a sham and a lead up to the fradulent report. The invaders themselves are either dupes or crying crocodile tears, neither is an excuse.

Furthermore, this casts a high degree of suspicion on the invaders "messing-up" by invading after the update. It seems that this invasion missed the update on purpose to give the defenders a chance to retaliate and remove the invaders, thus setting the stage for the fraudulant report.

I guess i'm a dupe then.

Of course you'll find compromising material on our offsite board. We really wanted to take revenge on Ostendt. We were figuring the different ways. Still, why didn't you get the person who filed the mod report then?

There's lots of other things on that forum too, things that show we're not about cheating. But I guess I'm crying crocodile tears here.

There's little left to say. I must admit it looks a lot like us participating in framing Ostendt. I have no real proof of the contrary. Frustration.

Finally this forum works again here.
I'll react later (B&B Army was my nation), need to go to the French lesson now.

Still, why didn't you get the person who filed the mod report then?


Minor oversight.

3 minutes ago: The Nuclear Moloch Empire of I Principi ceased to exist.

well, at least he got that guy now too..

That proves that the entire reason for the invasion was to set up Belgium in general, and Ostendt in particular.

Since the "invasion" was simply done to bring in defenders, the whole thing was a sham and a lead up to the fradulent report. The invaders themselves are either dupes or crying crocodile tears, neither is an excuse.

Furthermore, this casts a high degree of suspicion on the invaders "messing-up" by invading after the update. It seems that this invasion missed the update on purpose to give the defenders a chance to retaliate and remove the invaders, thus setting the stage for the fraudulant report.

Wrong, normally I wouldn't bring in elements from our (restricted!) forum, but since the mods don't seem to have any privacy concerns, I might as well point out that this thread leaves me (and Karnemelk even more) totally in the clear.

First allow me to show you ALL the posts COMPLETELY, so you can see the posts in their context:
Posts: 12


Re: raid on Le Congo

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Admin
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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #23 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 05:49am »

I don't know what happened in Central Asia, as I was asleep, but yesterday night Ostendt was already recruiting in Belgium for UN-nations.

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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #24 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 06:49am »


on Jan 9th, 2004, 05:49am, Admin wrote:I don't know what happened in Central Asia, as I was asleep, but yesterday night Ostendt was already recruiting in Belgium for UN-nations.



Are you America BG and if so, do you understand dutch then?
Anyway I saw it too but hoped he wasn't talking about us again. Since Central Asia has nothing to do with Belgium, at least I think so and we have the right to become delegate in a region without any delegate or founder and with only two dead puppets.

Ostendt really plans on making life difficult for us, but this only strengthens my will to take him down.
REVENGE !!!

I even wonder if what he did was legal, B&B army is still on the banlist.

Changing the name in Flanders Field is ok with me, but I'd prefere the way Ward suggest: just ask the mods to change the name of the existing region. And that of the Commonwealth, maybe in the ABC Commonwealth: Anti Belgium, Army of Bokrijk, Agressive Bold Conquerors enz

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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #25 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 07:08am »

What do you think of setting up a trap for ostendt. We just seek a pro-bokrijk, anti-belgium-region, which Ostendt doesnt know about. We fake invasion and if ostendt reacts, tries to seize the delegate chair, just let the founder say that he is not wished here and he considers it an attack. And if he wanted help, he would have asked.
That way he could understand that he doesnt heve to react if noone complains, like in central asia.

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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #26 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 08:00am »

Admin is mostly used by I Principi. But I use 'admin' so it's harder to track down my moments of being online.

I like the idea of a trap, but what region?
I may have an idea. Update in about an hour.

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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #27 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 08:03am »

on Jan 9th, 2004, 07:08am, Ummirika wrote:What do you think of setting up a trap for ostendt. We just seek a pro-bokrijk, anti-belgium-region, which Ostendt doesnt know about. We fake invasion and if ostendt reacts, tries to seize the delegate chair, just let the founder say that he is not wished here and he considers it an attack. And if he wanted help, he would have asked.
That way he could understand that he doesnt heve to react if noone complains, like in central asia.



Yes but what region is pro-Bokrijk en anti-Belgium that they don't know about?
Allthough it would be nice to trap him, maybe even be able to complain with the mods about that damn invader Ostendt

Btw, Ward, Boogie and myself are all working on ties with other invader regions.

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I Principi
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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #28 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 08:04am »

Oh, and this is the comment of Ostendt on the attack:

wij winnen altijd. En weet je waarom?
Omdat wij niet zo graag meer slapen! LOL neen ik deed dat vroeger ook toen ik nog student was..veel slapen uitgaan blokken tot gat in de nacht....tja dit is nu éénmaal een spel die update in de morgen...ik ben blij dat ik geen Amerikaan ben..die gasten zitten soms op tot 0500h in de nacht op die updates te wachten.

Kort samengevat France is liberated van de fasjo regering.
En ergens in het verre oosten zijn er twee bokrijkers vakkundig uit de regio geschoten.

Gr O

All 'spy' messages will be removed after one or two days.

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I Principi
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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #29 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 08:05am »

My idea was Benelux. I've had some contact with the founder some time ago, and it might work out. I'll ask him about it, but I'm quite positive.

And it's a region which is interesting to Belgium.

Even worse, if he wins, and we are with three or something, and the founder would press charges (if that is correct ) for griefing, when Ostendt kicks us all, we could get rid of him

And can't we get a mod-report on Ostendt for Central Asia? He just kicked us out, and banned us. But you'll have to write it, as victims... It would strengthen our great mod-report as well, when the invasion in Benelux works out.

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Author Topic: raid on Le Congo (Read 266 times)

I Principi
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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #30 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 09:03am »

Something else.

There is a nation in Belgium that is multying. Linkervoorpoot, and his brother Sorath.

Do we fight them with their own weapons? Mod-report?
Wat do you say? They've done it with us..
EDIT: I've written a little report, as I've seen that linkervoorpoot was part of the invasion force in Central Asia.

And if we really want to go the mod-way in Benelux, we should be with quite a lot of nations, and a full day before the update. Then at the next update Ostendt kicks us all, who have been there for a full day, the founder writes a mod report and Ostendt is deleted.
« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2004, 09:36am by I Principi » Logged

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I Principi
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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #31 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 11:02am »


29 minutes ago: The Igor Alexenko of Ostendt was ejected from the UN for rule violations.
87 minutes ago: The Empire of Linkervoorpoot was ejected from the UN for rule violations.
88 minutes ago: The Kingdom of Sorath was ejected from the UN for rule violations.


muhahahahaaaa
For power and glory!!


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I Principi
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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #32 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 12:04pm »

We zouden nu wel paswoord-protectie kunnen gebruiken...

Na dit zou Belgium wel eens een aanval kunnen plannen.

Is Annelenistan weg? En Apeneiland, is hij wakker 's morgens? Maar regional control staat af zeker.
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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #33 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 12:25pm »

Goddamned...... they thought it would be safer to take regional control away from the delegate.........


NOT !

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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #34 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 12:33pm »

on Jan 9th, 2004, 11:02am, I Principi wrote:29 minutes ago: The Igor Alexenko of Ostendt was ejected from the UN for rule violations.
87 minutes ago: The Empire of Linkervoorpoot was ejected from the UN for rule violations.
88 minutes ago: The Kingdom of Sorath was ejected from the UN for rule violations.


muhahahahaaaa
For power and glory!!


Ewel IP, chapeau

Ostendt down the drain, het zal mss niet lang duren, maar tis verdorie goed
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If this forum allows it, my plea will follow soon and you will notice that B&B Army and Karnemelk can not be held responsible.

1) The thread the way I posted it proves that the idea of a trap was only beginning to take shape AFTER B&B Army and Karnemelk had been kicked from Central Asia by Ostendt. So Hack's claim that is was a sham and that we missed the update on purpose doesn't make any sense.

2) We were only considering our options in the "war" with Belgium. Nothing was decided yet. I (the emperor) was wondering however if Ostendt had acted legal in Central Asia and if we couldn't get him to slip up in a future invasion.

3) I Principi found out that there was a multier in Belgium and filed a mod report. Because of my question about the actions of Ostendt, he apparently also cooked up a story about him. In the thread you can clearly see he only notified us AFTERWARDS and without telling us much about the content of the report. It's also I Principi who works out the details of the Central Asia mod report and a possible mod trap in the future. There is no response of me or Karnemelk on that issue.

4) As you may notice, Karnemelk (Annelenistan and here Sterretje) is nowhere in sight, he was away for the weekend. Strange moment to plan traps no?

5) Only two thing went wrong here:
- I Principi was right about filing a mod report (after all, there were multiers) but was apparently wrong to accuse Ostendt and may have lied about me and Karnemelk being natives
- Invader kickers (or even the mods?) got access to our forum, took some isolated strong statements out of their context and served it to Hack, to incriminate us. Of course there is some tough talk, Belgium is our primary adversary in this game, but that doesn't mean we're ordinary griefers.

So Hack's claim that is was a sham and that we missed the update on purpose doesn't make any sense.

A little far-fetched indeed.

I was wondering: could the mods please post the fraudulent mod report? I'd like to know exactly what I assisted in.

And I don't suppose you could tell us who infiltrated our forum...

And I don't suppose you could tell us who infiltrated our forum...

It was me who forwarded those messages to Hack, as part of an exchange of messages in which I intended to get a better understanding of how the past rulings were made in the Central Asia case. As far as I was concerned, the rulings had been made, game play had proceeded, and I was merely discussing what happened evaluation-style. I did not demand or even request any kind of further mod intervention in Central Asia, and even made it clear that I felt the current situation for that region had actually improved despite the highly questionable way in which that situation had come into being.

Considering that I'm heavily involved in invasion/counter-invasion gameplay, I want to make sure that not only do I stay well within the rules, but also that I do not allow the other side to have sufficient 'ammo' to construct a convincing case against me. This isn't a paranoid policy but a good precaution, since some unscrupulous individuals do stuff like that, as is shown by the posts quoted above. I've also witnessed individuals telling bold-faced lies to mods in cases where I lacked the evidence to prove as such. It's a shame, but to some people the mods are just part of the game and are merely another party to manipulate in order to 'win'.

I did indeed pick a few posts to quote, instead of the entire thread or forum, to provide some context for my questions to Hack. They were not provided as part of a Mod report sent in (I filed a total of *zero* of those in the Central Asia situation), and were only intended to clarify the method of operation of the invaders in question (and hence that they are indeed invaders and not a group of natives who innocently all decide to settle somewhere, as they continuously have claimed themselves).

To be honest, I was surprised when the deletions took place in Central Asia, as this is a major change of stance between the way Hack spoke about the case priorly (even AFTER I sent the message containing those posts). I will not quote that here without prior permission from Hack.

The moderator team's interpretation that "That proves that the entire reason for the invasion was to set up Belgium in general, and Ostendt in particular." is an interpretation which I do not share based on the (admittedly limited) information available to me, and is not an interpretation which I suggested or proposed towards Hack. I haven't seen anything that rules it out either, to be honest.

The issue I finally did make a point out of towards hack is questioning whether or not I P told a purposeful lie with the intent of setting up Ostendt in the mod report filed. Since I do not have access to that report, it is something I cannot decide upon. It merely seemed like something that was likely to me, based on the (temporary) ejection of Ostendt from the UN and statements made by Bokrijk. I have not made, nor am I making any claims as to how many (if any) other nations were involved in that, I simply do not know.

As my last comment here I'd like to express my disappointment in the decision to make those posts public. I thought it should've been obvious they were classified as 'intel' and should not be made public as it betrays a key element in gameplay: the presence of a major leak in Bokrijk intelligence. I will have to seriously re-consider the blind trust I gave the moderation team by sharing important information with them.

Ballotonia

Ballotonia,

The change in Central Asia was my call. Hack asked for my assistance in determining whether action was warranted or not, and as a part of that forwarded those posts to myself.

Rather than sit here and argue back and forth, and be accused of unfounded accusations (we know this to be rather common), I decided to cut to the quick, so to speak, and post a bit of the intel gathered.


I apologize sincerely for any damage this has caused to your intel-gathering units. And I thank you for your assistance in clearing this matter up.


We Mods do not take lightly players using us to eliminate their adversaries, enemies, etc.

We Mods do not take lightly players using us to eliminate their adversaries, enemies, etc.

You mods do not take lightly your egos either :roll:

We Mods do not take lightly players using us to eliminate their adversaries, enemies, etc.

You mods do not take lightly your egos either :roll:

Indeed.

It's just that there are few checks and balances. None, to be precise. The mods are not elected, they are selected - by mods. I suppose they look upon themselves as benevolent dictators. But dictators, benevolent as they may be, can still make mistakes.

In Central Asia, they made a mistake. The mods felt they had been used, and a grossly exaggerated reaction followed. Don't mess with the mods.

That's the way they run the game. It's not so much "abide by the rules" as "do not upset the mods". And mods are easily upset. I read someone got deleted for having "little mexican" as his national animal. Someone else got deleted for region hopping.

Please tell me, what's so horrible about region hopping? It boosts your population, apparently. Some dedicated roleplayers feel wronged, as this messes up their fancy army calculations. Unspeakable horror, indeed. There's nothing in the official rules that even hints at region hopping being forbidden. But the mods have decided it is.

They've decided quite a lot in one single year. Has anyone counted the stickies and announcements on this forum? They've compiled quite a rulebook, all by themselves. Don't do this and don't do that. But that's not all. The mods are not bound by their own rules. They can decide whatever they like.

This is necessary, they argue, because "some guys could find a loophole in a solid brick wall". That way, they conveniently keep their hands free. And so they are always right. I guess they have the best of intentions. But many people complain about NationStates getting overregulated. It's not going to get any better.

I'll conclude with this little story: when Neut first reacted in this thread, I got a TM from an experienced (mod-abiding) player: "Seems Neut's on the case. Tough luck. He's known to be very unreasonable. Pray for Hack to come back, that's a guy you can talk to". I guess that says it all. Utter arbitrariness.

Again, I agree. This whole thing reminds me of the Arrakis affair from last summer. Anybody remember that?

It's just that there are few checks and balances. None, to be precise. The mods are not elected, they are selected - by mods.

Actually, like with most things around here, [violet] gets the final say. Both for who becomes a Mod, and when there are serious disagreements to a Mod's actions.

In Central Asia, they made a mistake. The mods felt they had been used, and a grossly exaggerated reaction followed. Don't mess with the mods.

Uh-huh. How else am I to interperate the following?


I like the idea of a trap, but what region?
I may have an idea. Update in about an hour.


And can't we get a mod-report on Ostendt for Central Asia? He just kicked us out, and banned us. But you'll have to write it, as victims... It would strengthen our great mod-report as well, when the invasion in Benelux works out.

Likes the idea of a trap, makes a note to pass himself off as a victim... Gee. How could I possibly interperate that as fraud?

That's the way they run the game. It's not so much "abide by the rules" as "do not upset the mods". And mods are easily upset. I read someone got deleted for having "little mexican" as his national animal. Someone else got deleted for region hopping.

Aparently you didn't read everything relating to them, just enough to form an inaccurate perception.

Please tell me, what's so horrible about region hopping? It boosts your population, apparently. Some dedicated roleplayers feel wronged, as this messes up their fancy army calculations. Unspeakable horror, indeed. There's nothing in the official rules that even hints at region hopping being forbidden. But the mods have decided it is.

It was done specifically to raise his population to about 50% higher than it should be. Tyrone was not a role-playing nation, so your straw man is even less relevant than it normally would be. Furthermore, he had been warned that this practice was not acceptable, and given a relatively light punishment. His population was set to a negative number for a week, and then restored to where it should have been before he was punished. In other words, he lost a week's worth of growth. He was given a detailed warning, and it was noted to the mods that his warning only related to the population manipulations. In other words, he had a clean slate for any other rule violations. However, should he do the population manipulation again, he would be deleted. This was very clearly laid out.

He then proceded to do it again. I'd say we were more than fair with him, but he simply refused to follow the rules.

They've decided quite a lot in one single year. Has anyone counted the stickies and announcements on this forum? They've compiled quite a rulebook, all by themselves. Don't do this and don't do that. But that's not all. The mods are not bound by their own rules. They can decide whatever they like.

Once again you've conveniantly forgotten the fact that the site administrator reviews what we do. Indeed, [violet] is often involved (behind the scenes) in the crafting of those very rules you're complaining about.

This is necessary, they argue, because "some guys could find a loophole in a solid brick wall". That way, they conveniently keep their hands free. And so they are always right. I guess they have the best of intentions. But many people complain about NationStates getting overregulated. It's not going to get any better.

You complain that we've compiled "quite the rulebook", and in your next breath complain that we leave the rules vague simply so we can galavant around doing whatever we please.

Have you ever looked at the compiled laws for a state or nation? Do you really think we have the time to sit down and codify the rules of this site? Do you think anybody would read hundreds of pages of rules, regulations, exception, examples, cross-references, etc. etc. etc.?

And you follow that up with a complaint that NS is overregulated.

I'll conclude with this little story: when Neut first reacted in this thread, I got a TM from an experienced (mod-abiding) player: "Seems Neut's on the case. Tough luck. He's known to be very unreasonable. Pray for Hack to come back, that's a guy you can talk to". I guess that says it all. Utter arbitrariness.

Hm. Well, considering I was the one who brought it to Neut's attention, and was the one who suggested possible courses of action, and the one who did the actual deleting...

1) The thread the way I posted it proves that the idea of a trap was only beginning to take shape AFTER B&B Army and Karnemelk had been kicked from Central Asia by Ostendt. So Hack's claim that is was a sham and that we missed the update on purpose doesn't make any sense.

2) We were only considering our options in the "war" with Belgium. Nothing was decided yet. I (the emperor) was wondering however if Ostendt had acted legal in Central Asia and if we couldn't get him to slip up in a future invasion.

3) I Principi found out that there was a multier in Belgium and filed a mod report. Because of my question about the actions of Ostendt, he apparently also cooked up a story about him. In the thread you can clearly see he only notified us AFTERWARDS and without telling us much about the content of the report. It's also I Principi who works out the details of the Central Asia mod report and a possible mod trap in the future. There is no response of me or Karnemelk on that issue.

4) As you may notice, Karnemelk (Annelenistan and here Sterretje) is nowhere in sight, he was away for the weekend. Strange moment to plan traps no?

5) Only two thing went wrong here:
- I Principi was right about filing a mod report (after all, there were multiers) but was apparently wrong to accuse Ostendt and may have lied about me and Karnemelk being natives
- Invader kickers (or even the mods?) got access to our forum, took some isolated strong statements out of their context and served it to Hack, to incriminate us. Of course there is some tough talk, Belgium is our primary adversary in this game, but that doesn't mean we're ordinary griefers.
---------------------

Can I get an answer to this?

All the words you use to justify yourself Hack, are the words of I PRINCIPI, spoken AFTER our invasion in Central Asia. It's not because we know him and he is or was a Bokrijk member that we can control his thoughts or hold his hand when he decides to write a mod report.

The deletion of I Principi I can live with, I think everybody here has no problem with that, but why in gods name did B&B Army and Karnemelk got deleted? Is this a new category of rule violation, having an allie that slips up? If this is the case, than people with a grudge can just move into a region, join invaders or invader kickers, file a fraudulent mod report about the invaded region and everybody who participated gets deleted :shock:

Thanks for the reply, Hack. I appreciate that.

I know it looks like Ostendt was framed (still didn't get to see the fraudulent mod report though). Maybe I Principi lied (i can't tell though, i'm not given the opportunity). Maybe you guys think he should be deleted for that. That's reasonable.

But it wasn't fair to delete Karnemelk and Black&Blue. That's what you did, though, and you even forgot to delete the one who actually posted the fraudulent mod report.

Which proves, I think, you didn't really look into it. You just deleted a few nations, to get the message through: "don't mess with the mod". The message got through allright. But it's still not fair.

:!: And I've got really convincing proof for myself: http://users.pandora.be/ward.kerckhof/proof.jpg :!:

Maybe you can't read dutch. It says: "i'm away for the weekend, including friday, and i can't be online during that time". You can ask Ballotonia to verify if you don't trust my translation.

(Annelenistan did log in though, once, to password-protect bokrijk. Wasn't me, I sms'd the password to Black&Blue army. ip should verify that. if they don't, there's proof of that on our board too, i'll happily provide it).

The plans for "a fraudulent report" were made during that weekend!!! The chronology proves my innocence. B&B's innocent too, i know, but i don't have equally solid proof of that :(

So why didn't I come up with this earlier? Because I didn't think it would be necessary, that's why.

[About the overregulation: from my perspective, it's really quite irrelevant whether it's violet or the mods that are responsible. I'm just wondering why the Etiquette rules won't do.

Like the region hopping thing (I don't know this Tyrone, I just stumbled across the thread): ok, you warned him. Repeatedly, if you like. That's not my point: i'm just wondering why it's forbidden. Why is it so terrible that someone should boost his population by hopping? Who's been griefed here?]

Thanks for the reply, Hack. I appreciate that.

I know it looks like Ostendt was framed (still didn't get to see the fraudulent mod report though). Maybe I Principi lied (i can't tell though, i'm not given the opportunity). Maybe you guys think he should be deleted for that. That's reasonable.

But it wasn't fair to delete Karnemelk and Black&Blue. That's what you did, though, and you even forgot to delete the one who actually posted the fraudulent mod report.

So, you're admitting there was a fradulent report, and you knew about it? Or do you have access to the Mod Centre to see the tasklist?


Which proves, I think, you didn't really look into it. You just deleted a few nations, to get the message through: "don't mess with the mod". The message got through allright. But it's still not fair.

Not fair to delete nations that commit serious crimes? The Mods are not here to be your little lapdogs, to destroy the nations you have problems with. We are not instruments to be used to further your own personal agendas. Nor do we take lightly to fradulent reports intended to disupt another player's gaming unfairly.

:!: And I've got really convincing proof for myself: http://users.pandora.be/ward.kerckhof/proof.jpg :!:

Maybe you can't read dutch. It says: "i'm away for the weekend, including friday, and i can't be online during that time". You can ask Ballotonia to verify if you don't trust my translation.

(Annelenistan did log in though, once, to password-protect bokrijk. Wasn't me, I sms'd the password to Black&Blue army. ip should verify that. if they don't, there's proof of that on our board too, i'll happily provide it).

The plans for "a fraudulent report" were made during that weekend!!! The chronology proves my innocence. B&B's innocent too, i know, but i don't have equally solid proof of that :(

Prove to me that you were gone for that whole weekend, not just claiming to be gone.


So why didn't I come up with this earlier? Because I didn't think it would be necessary, that's why.
Um hmm


[About the overregulation: from my perspective, it's really quite irrelevant whether it's violet or the mods that are responsible. I'm just wondering why the Etiquette rules won't do.
What etiquette rules were broken? All we did was correct a wrong - you were the first we had conclusive proof of such actions, we made an example of you. The next time it happens and we find out about it, we'll make an example of those nations as well. Your interpretation that you must simply not upset the Mods is grossly inaccurate. Much of what goes on here upsets the Mods, we do not act on being personallyupset, or personally offended (unless it's something like goatze or tubgirl, et al.). You would rather have Mods elected by the people so that it would become a popularity contest and you really would have no manner of knowing how a rule would be interpreted the next time - just because it depends on what Mod handles the report and which side he/she feels is more likely to get him/her reelected?


Like the region hopping thing (I don't know this Tyrone, I just stumbled across the thread): ok, you warned him. Repeatedly, if you like. That's not my point: i'm just wondering why it's forbidden. Why is it so terrible that someone should boost his population by hopping? Who's been griefed here?]

It's not about griefing. It's about exploitation of a game mechanic that can seriously affect other nations. Rankings are quite a large part of many RPs, to have one nation ranked 20+ times in one day serioiusly throws EVERYONE's rankings off. Along with other reasons.

So, you're admitting there was a fradulent report, and you knew about it?


Did I say that? I said that I know (now) that a report was filed. You say it's fraudulent. I can't tell, since I still haven't seen it.

Prove to me that you were gone for that whole weekend, not just claiming to be gone.

How in heavens could I prove that? You're willing to accept a text copypaste as proof for my cheating, in which i'm not even mentioned! And this screenshot doesn't count as counterevidence?

So you think I made up this evidence? Ask Ballotonia, he was our board's admin! You can have my account to check everything out if you like. In the meantime, I'll post some more evidence (I can make it up really fast, no?).

Man this is frustrating.

:arrow: http://users.pandora.be/ward.kerckhof/moreProof.jpg

Emperor says he'll sms me for my password (because i can't get online myself).

Anyway, I'm pretty shocked that you wouldn't accept the first screenshot already. A simple text copy/paste suffices to get someone deleted, and this won't do. I'll give you my stupid proboards account if you're still not convinced, so you can go check the board yourself. And you can check ip addresses and login times in NationStates, right?

There's just no smiley that expresses my frustration here. If there were one, it would be a work of art.

Ah well, I don't know if it means something to these mods, but I can confirm Karnemelk was away for the weekend. I am the current delegate of Bokrijk. I know we've always had an offensive yet fair policy. The game is not about cheating. Offcourse we cannot oversee all individual actions. No member of Bokrijk has ever seen IP's report. IP is a recent member, while me, karnemelk and B&B are the original inhabitants of Bokrijk.

So now you've deleted nations because they would have assisted in a fraudulent report. They knew some sort of report was sent by IP, but they didn't know it contained lies (I didn't either). The reason for deletion is the fraudulent report, yet you don't delete the sender of the report?? You've deleted him only afterwards! Here you've already lost credibility as reasonable mods. Furthermore the evidence to proof Karnemelk and B&B's guilt is information, stolen from our forum. Next you even bring it to public. This proof is mere wishful interpretation of decontextualized posts.

On top of that you're asking hard evidence from Karnemelk for his absence during that weekend?

I have always played this game with political logic and reason. I find your competence as mods highly questionable. You've caught people in a web of overregulation and you can do with them wathever you want, evidence or not. I hope at least some members of the moderator community would reflect on these issues. It should at least be an open debate! Please reconsider the Central-Asia decision.

As a matter of fact, I want to stress that I have no objection at all to the publication of my mod-report. I am very convinced that I did never break any rule.

As you all have read in that piece of shameless spionage, there was an actual question about the actions of Ostendt being legal. Quite a demo of manipulation as well, this is stated by the text of Ballotonia and Neutered Sputniks:


Emperor
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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #24 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 1:49pm »

on Jan 9th, 2004, 12:49pm, Admin wrote:I don't know what happened in Central Asia, as I was asleep, but yesterday night Ostendt was already recruiting in Belgium for UN-nations.

Are you America BG and if so, do you understand dutch then?
Anyway I saw it too but hoped he wasn't talking about us again. Since Central Asia has nothing to do with Belgium, at least I think so and we have the right to become delegate in a region without any delegate or founder and with only two dead puppets.

Ostendt really plans on making life difficult for us, but this only strengthens my will to take him down.
REVENGE !!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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The truth, just the same but a little longer, is:

Emperor
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member is offline

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Re: raid on Le Congo
« Reply #24 on: Jan 9th, 2004, 1:49pm »

on Jan 9th, 2004, 12:49pm, Admin wrote:I don't know what happened in Central Asia, as I was asleep, but yesterday night Ostendt was already recruiting in Belgium for UN-nations.

Are you America BG and if so, do you understand dutch then?
Anyway I saw it too but hoped he wasn't talking about us again. Since Central Asia has nothing to do with Belgium, at least I think so and we have the right to become delegate in a region without any delegate or founder and with only two dead puppets.

Ostendt really plans on making life difficult for us, but this only strengthens my will to take him down.
REVENGE !!!

I even wonder if what he did was legal, B&B army is still on the banlist.

Changing the name in Flanders Field is ok with me, but I'd prefere the way Ward suggest: just ask the mods to change the name of the existing region. And that of the Commonwealth, maybe in the ABC Commonwealth: Anti Belgium, Army of Bokrijk, Agressive Bold Conquerors enz
134.58.253.129

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So the part, where our nations truly ask if Ostendt broke the rules, and as such gave me a base to file a report, is left away, by Ballotonia or by one of the mods.

I was sure that two nations in Belgium, that took part in the attack, were multying. And there was doubt about the actions of Ostendt being legal. So I reasoned that there could be nothing wrong with a mod-report, as I have always understood that this can be no crime. I don't have to be sure of a violation to report it, that's what the mods are for. So I posted the reports. The report about Ostendt stated explicitly that our nations only arrived one day ago. So there was NOTHING untrue or fraudulent about it. Therefore I insist again that you post it here...

So what happened next, is that the mod kicked Ostendt. This can, logically, mean two things, one: Ostendt was breaking the rules. Then this whole theatre should be unnecessary. But the more probable option is two: Ostendt did not break the rules. That means the mistake was made by the MOD, not by me, reporting something I honestly believed it was worth reporting. And I agree, I reported it hoping that Ostendt would be punished for his violation, if he did one. I'm not the expert, the mods are, they're to judge about it. Every mod-report that is posted is with the intention of getting someone punished, that has nothing to do with abusing the mods.

So the judgement should not be about the mod-report intending to hit Ostendt or not, but about the report being completely true or not. IF there is no lie in it at all, I see no logical reason why I should be deleted, though I seem te get disappointingly minor support at this point from my so-called region members.

I do confirm that Annelenistan was away that weekend, as is clearly proved by our forum. We aren't that addicted that we would fake such forum posts, and Ballotonia can confirm (from before I kicked him (probably) out) that the posts, where the absence of Annelenistan, our founder, is discussed, have never been edited since the day they were posted.

As is discussed above, there were doubts about Ostendt breaking the rules. Posting a mod-report was my idea though, and I alone wrote and posted both reports, giving the case in the capable hands of the Game Moderators. Annelenistan/Karnemelk nor B&B had anything to do with it, as is clearly proved at our forum.

And in my opinion, even the plans that were made at our forum, for possible execution in the future, would not have been illegal. The idea would have been: entering a region with a friendly founder, and provocing Ostendt to do something illegal we could report. Ostendt knows the rules, and if he would not break them, in our possible plan, we would not enter a mod-report, that is clear, as we were quite assured at the time that the mods had access to everything and never made mistakes. No one is perfect though. If we would have doubted about him doing something illegal, or if he had actually done something illegal, we would have filed it, and let the mods judge it.

My opinion, even that is of nu value as I defend my own concern, is that I did never do anything illegal, as I just filed a report with a true story of the facts. I am even more assured that the other members of the region should not be punished for this, if you would judge that there has actually been a violation from me (which I hope to get some explanation about). But defending my region members is no longer my primary concern, as it was in the beginning of this case.

With kindest regards,
I Principi

Believe it or not, I've got the evidence that proves both my and Black&Blue's innocence.

:arrow: http://users.pandora.be/ward.kerckhof/evenMoreProof.jpg

I Principi assures us (jan 10th) that he did not violate any rule! If (!) IP lied to the mods, then he also lied to us. Solid evidence.

:!: Note that we still haven't had a chance to read IP's report :!: Could it be, perhaps, that it's been deleted a while ago already? That the mods don't exactly remember what was in there? And that we got deleted only on the basis of our making plans on an offsite forum :?:

You'll notice also that I (jan 12th) congratulate IP on his work done as an undercover agent. This proves I honestly believed that, at that time, he had "infiltrated" the Belgian forum, and found out a multying nation had assisted in Ostendt's banning us from Central Asia (which was indeed the case).

Ha! We're all innocent and you know it. That's why there's been no reply. That's why the mods never posted IP's "fraudulent mod report" - because they no longer have the report. That's why initially the sender of the report didn't get deleted - they didn't know who sent the report anymore, let alone what was in it...

So basically IP and Black&Blue got deleted for making plans (not executing them) for framing Ostendt in Benelux (nót in Central Asia!! read our offsite thread AirForceOne posted a while ago). Mindpolice. And I got deleted for, uhm, I dunno why.

So get it over with and admit you made a mistake. Give us our nations back!

Yeah it is rather suspicious that they haven't answered yet :lol:. I hope they're reconsidering it, because they can earn my respect if they admit they were wrong. We'll see...

Maybe they have lives outside of NS.

Prove to me that you were gone for that whole weekend, not just claiming to be gone.
How in heavens could I prove that?

Within reason, you cannot. The internet is global, so even an itinerary plus plane ticket receipt etc... wouldn't suffice. I can ackowledge that you being away that weekend is consistent with all the information I have available to me, if that helps any.

So you think I made up this evidence? Ask Ballotonia, he was our board's admin!

Actually, I was not, nor am I now. Please do not fish for where the leak is/was/will be, I will not say.

As you all have read in that piece of shameless spionage,

Espionage is part of how the game is played.

So the part, where our nations truly ask if Ostendt broke the rules, and as such gave me a base to file a report, is left away, by Ballotonia or by one of the mods.

If I remember correctly, I left out that last part about Flanders Field as it had nothing to do with your status as invaders in Central Asia. Please note that when quoting the above I wasn't filing a Mod Report about what Bokrijk stands accused of now, merely making the point of your qualification as invaders of Central Asia.

So I reasoned that there could be nothing wrong with a mod-report, as I have always understood that this can be no crime.

If written with the intent to mislead the mods about what has or is happening, then I think that should be regarded a rule violation.

And in my opinion, even the plans that were made at our forum, for possible execution in the future, would not have been illegal. The idea would have been: entering a region with a friendly founder, and provocing Ostendt to do something illegal we could report.

Please realize that the moderation team is not part of the game itself. Utilizing them as part of an in-game strategy is very, very wrong. Please also realize that if you pretend to be an invader, purposely acting like one, and end up getting kicked from a region because of this, it's very bad form to run to the mods and claim a rule violation because of your supposed native status. The separation between invader and native can get quite blurry at times in the game, and blurrying this even more just to trigger a possible technical rule violation from the other side goes IMHO completely against the spirit of the game. Mods are not in-game tools for your use.

As for posting your mod report... a judgement on whether or not there is sufficient perceived intent to mislead the mods is to the mods and the mods alone (ok, [violet] could chip in :) ). But not you or me. While I'm certainly curious about that report, our interpretations of it are not the ones that count. Still, we could have fun argueing over it though ;).

For what it's worth, as it is I do not see sufficient grounds for including B&B Army and Karnemelk in this judgement. But I also realize that as non-Mod I do not have access to all the evidence.

Ballotonia

Maybe they have lives outside of NS.

Some have...but not these mods :D

If I remember correctly, I left out that last part about Flanders Field as it had nothing to do with your status as invaders in Central Asia. Please note that when quoting the above I wasn't filing a Mod Report about what Bokrijk stands accused of now, merely making the point of your qualification as invaders of Central Asia.
I see.

Actually, I was not, nor am I now. Please do not fish for where the leak is/was/will be, I will not say.
I do think I know where the leak is. I may have kicked America for nothing. You did a damn good job, if you are who I think you are.

If written with the intent to mislead the mods about what has or is happening, then I think that should be regarded a rule violation.
I agree. But as proved in my last post, this is not the case here. I just told them the truth, thinking there had been a violation.

So I agree the idea of trapping Ostendt in Benelux would have been wrong. But I can't be punished for thinking of something wrong, all those ideas were made after the entrance in Central Asia. The fact that Central Asia wasn't just a decoy is proved clearly by us staying in C-A for weeks after the mod-intervention, organising all kinds of events and reviving the region, and as such being appreciated by all natives. I have never broken any rule in the past (I just asked to be kicked out of the UN once some months ago, that may be recorded), so it's not like I persistently balance on the thin red line. As a matter of fact, the report was, as I remember, posted by I P - Special Forces, not by I Principi himself. If this was after all a violation, it can't be bad enough to delete my main nation? You haven't done that to anyone... The difference is large, symbolically, and makes the difference between continuing or stopping this game, for me personally. But that doesn't matter here of course, I claim total innocence


And of course the decision is up to the mods, but they can change their mind after they hear all sides of the story. I want to remark as well, that this a quite a unique situation, as there doesn't seem to be a 'party' on the other side, opposing to what we say and hoping we would stay kicked. So no one will feel wronged if we just get restored and we can continue playing this game.

All the natives? There were 2 natives. One of which didnt return after the invasion.

All the natives? There were 2 natives. One of which didnt return after the invasion.

More precisely: the first native ceased to exist after 28 days of idling, while still residing in Central Asia. The second now is now Founder of Central Asia. Neither were ejected by either Ostendt or the Bokrijk invaders.

Ballotonia

All the natives? There were 2 natives. One of which didnt return after the invasion.

Neut, is that all you've got to say? What about the counterevidence we provided? Are you guys revising the entire thing? If so, please take your time. The more you'll look in to it, the more you'll be convinced of our innocence.

I was thinking: this is like The A-Team ("convicted for a crime they didn't commit") versus Judge Judy :D

Basically, off-site evidence is always taken with a grain of salt, if it gets used at all, because, as Siswai stated, it is easily falsifiable, and we have no way to verify its authenticity.


Strange that the moderators realise how carefull you have to be with offsite material, but at the same time don't hesitate to use the few fragments they get from an invader kicker to delete two nations almost "at random".
And when you show them the entire thread or screen shots from the board that show that the offsite evidence actually proves our innoncence, they act as if you're some ordinary cheater trying to set them up. Like Sterretje, I'd be more than willing to give one of the mods my login for the Bokrijk Commonwealth board, than they can go see for themselves.

And don't start about us changing or deleting anything, since the administrator America BG is more than likely the spie of Ballotonia. Btw, he can confirm if anything is missing or not. Actually, he already confirmed that the info on our restricted board is to our advantage.

For those with a sense of humor:

http://www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m9800047/Afbeeldingen/B-team-ready.jpg

:D

With google in cache: “"central asia" site:www.nationstates.net”


/…
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Messages from regional members are co-ordinated here.
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4 days ago The Constitutional Monarchy of Qafi Funny, one of my puppets was one of the two natives in Central Asia, the region where Hack deployed temporary founders. The other native was 22 days inactive. Everbody together "It's a small world after all! It's a small world after all! It's a small world after all, it's a small, small, world!" Either that or I have a puppet ot two too many. . .

4 days ago The Most Glorious Modified Puppet Nation of Zombi-men Yeah, I noticed that as I was checking telegrams to see if the password had been sent. Naughty Qafi! Creating a nation and then never logging on to it! That's almost as bad a mods who use the Mod Centre because their factbook entry is too long for the user buffer... er... nevermind!

4 days ago The Constitutional Monarchy of Qafi I logged onto it. Just after you had to check my telegrams manually (because I did not see the message that I assume that you posted on the board). I was wondering about the factbook . . .

4 days ago The Constitutional Monarchy of Qafi Hack, what exactly happened in Central Asia? Nobody over there seems to know, except that there was apparently a griefing, and naturally as always happens even with legal invasions, but many times more so for griefings.

4 days ago The Most Glorious Modified Puppet Nation of Zombi-men It's a dicey one. It seems a group botched an invasion, as was then booted by counter-invaders. Of course, the original invaders did no griefing, as they missed update. It's kinda murky, really.

4 days ago The Constitutional Monarchy of Qafi It looks like anothe rattle between Bokrijk and Belgium. I've been seeing so many of them, usually in my regions (CA is not mine, except that I have a pupet in it though), that it's not even funny any more. And it's often very hard to tell Belgian and Bokrijikan apart at first glance.

2 days ago The Most Glorious Modified Puppet Nation of Glaaki I'm noticing this. It looks like Temporary Founders may be there awhile... sigh.

2 days ago The Puppet of Oko so, whats new?

2 days ago The Most Glorious Modified Puppet Nation of Glaaki Oh, not too much. I'm babysitting over in Central Asia, but so far things seem to be running smoothly. Of course, it's not likely anyone would be daft enough to grief while a Mod puppet in Founder, so I may be there for awhile. I figure that after a month or two, they'll either get bored and leave, or be serious about being a legit invasion. Forum-side, I'm mucking around with an RP in NS. Even made a nation for it, heh.

20 hours ago The Constitutional Monarchy of Qafi I'm glad of that Hack. I'm a tad worried that the Bokrijkans may decide to clear my status as second oldest (soon to be oldest) nation, in retalitation for the humiliation that I dealt them in three of my puppet regions. Thank you. With luck, by the time that you leave, those wounds will be old news (or the Belgians will have taken the delegacy again). :D. Again, many thanks Hack. Even if they don't grief it per-se, I would still be a bit ticked off at losing Rafta's seniority. Of course the question that remains is, "by the time that you leave in a cuple of months, will they be officially natives and legally able to ban Rafta?"

I see. There is no reason why we and Qaaolchoura should be enemies, I once asked him for update times... Too bad he had to see us as enemies, he could have communicated with us decently.

And just a remark, you quoted something I said: 'of course you'll have to post the report, as victims'. You understood that as 'to pass himself of as victim'. Of course, what I meant was that B&B and Karnemelk were the victims of the possible violation of Ostendt, so they should post the report, not me. After all I posted it; as I had no patience and I thought it would be harder for the mods to judge about it if we waited for a day or something. English isn't my main language you know...

I see. There is no reason why we and Qaaolchoura should be enemies, I once asked him for update times... Too bad he had to see us as enemies, he could have communicated with us decently.
I don't see you as enemies. I was having rather a lot of fun in the game we were playing in fact, and I am rather disapointed that you and Karnemelk/Jewelste got deleted (I don't know B&B very well).

The only people on NS who I truly dislike are people who post recruitment ads on message boards.

I do see you as people who were rather determined to take control of a region as a colony, and having failed to defeat me on my own ground, might decide to boot one of my puppets form the region that you had taken over in retalition for the boot that I gave Jewel in Indonesia. I therefore asked Hack if it would be legal for you to do so.

If it was, I was planning on enlisting some UN nations to attempt to seize control of Central Asia to allow my puppet to remain their. If not, I intended to simply sit in Central Asia peacably, and watch how things developed.

I never got a response, from Hack as to whether it is legal, and when Chibi chibi moved into TPOT, knowing that Chibi is a large member of a couner-invader force, decided to put out feelers that if you did boot me, I could make a quicjk explaination to members of my region, apply for Rafta to join the UN, and counter-invade.

<-duplicate post abreviated->

<-duplicate post truncated->

You might want to delete two of those three messages; I had the same problem here. Otherwise I guess the mods will do it for us :-)

I do know who Chibi-Chibi is, I had some meetings with the person before. Even asked for the update times once as well, after you told me I should contact him/her.

Your plan was quite right and fair; but we are ending in deciding that every single player is disappointed in me and the rest being deleted. That's you, a very well-known and respected player; that's our old enemies from Belgium, who all seem to support us, that's our spy Ballotonia, ...

All seem to agree that we do not deserve to be kicked out of this game. Is there then absolutely no way to convince the mods about this? We came with evidence, theories, explanations... Nothing seems to help us. Isn't it hard, just to ignore us, though all players feel that we deserve to live? Helping us is just a minor action for the mods, and no one would suffer from it...

You might want to delete two of those three messages; I had the same problem here. Otherwise I guess the mods will do it for us :-)
There were two, and in trying to elete the second, I somehow managed to post a third. :evil:

I do know who Chibi-Chibi is, I had some meetings with the person before. Even asked for the update times once as well, after you told me I should contact him/her.
Ahh.

All seem to agree that we do not deserve to be kicked out of this game. Is there then absolutely no way to convince the mods about this? We came with evidence, theories, explanations... Nothing seems to help us. Isn't it hard, just to ignore us, though all players feel that we deserve to live? Helping us is just a minor action for the mods, and no one would suffer from it...

All it took for Ostendt to get his UN membership back was a short post in Central Asia and a little thread in this forum. We've already gathered four pages of evidence of our innocence and still no justice. Would it be so terrible for the moderators to admit their error? They would gain respect, no lose it, if they'd correct their fault.

All seem to agree that we do not deserve to be kicked out of this game. Is there then absolutely no way to convince the mods about this? We came with evidence, theories, explanations... Nothing seems to help us. Isn't it hard, just to ignore us, though all players feel that we deserve to live? Helping us is just a minor action for the mods, and no one would suffer from it...

All it took for Ostendt to get his UN membership back was a short post in Central Asia and a little thread in this forum. We've already gathered four pages of evidence of our innocence and still no justice. Would it be so terrible for the moderators to admit their error? They would gain respect, no lose it, if they'd correct their fault.

The mod report that was filed contained false accusations of the password not being distributed as well as false accusations of UN Multi'ing.

Furthermore, the players in question are not being kicked out of the game. They had nations deleted. They are welcome to keep playing, and even continue regional invasions.

...provided they don't try and use the Mods as tools when counter-invaders intercede.

The mod report that was filed contained false accusations of the password not being distributed as well as false accusations of UN Multi'ing.

That must have been the first report of the kind. Let it be known: players had better not filed a request for a multi scan unless they're damn sure of themselves. If it turns out there was no multi'ing, you *and your friends* wíll get deleted!


Furthermore, the players in question are not being kicked out of the game. They had nations deleted. They are welcome to keep playing, and even continue regional invasions.


Ah, I suppose we're lucky then. :wink: We're glad you sort of admit you were wrong. Still, it'd be nice if we got our nations back, and it'd be even nicer if you'd think twice before you go deleting nations without warning in the future.

The mod report that was filed contained false accusations of the password not being distributed as well as false accusations of UN Multi'ing.

Furthermore, the players in question are not being kicked out of the game. They had nations deleted. They are welcome to keep playing, and even continue regional invasions.

...provided they don't try and use the Mods as tools when counter-invaders intercede.

Strange, cause two nations were kicked out of the UN because of multying and as far as I know they didn't get their membership back.

On the matter of the false mod report:
To be clear, I have never filed any wrong mod report and will never do so, but isn't it normal that some reports appear to be false? As a normal member of this game, you can't know anything for sure. What exactly is the difference between a defender asking to check out invaders (because of suspected multying for example) and an invader asking to check out the practises of defender nations?

And indeed, we weren't kicked out of the game but B&B Army had more than 500 million inhabitants, I spent hours making a map of that nation, etc. So you can understand that I won't just keep quiet when that nation gets deleted without any proof of guilt.

The remarks about UN-multiing was 100% true, and ended in the kicking out of the UN of the nations Sorath and Linkervoorpoot. In my report I just mentioned the other report I posted. How can this be a point, after all those discussions on this topic, while the UN-multying report was never mentioned? Clarifying that, and in my opinion completely solving the correct UN-multying report issue, was just a word.

I told before, and as you can read in the forum-copies, we felt wronged by being kicked and banned, and not being told the password. I felt that we had the right to be there, and I felt strengthened in my opinion by the questions of the others, which you can read in the forum: 'I wonder if what Ostendt is doing is legal, we are still on the ban list'. So I thought a violation may have happened, and I very logically did not doubt in reporting it, never expecting that the mods might just start deleting us all. I wonder how many mod-reports you receive per day, and how many of them are unwilled false.

The same that B&B says about his nation counts for me, I am I Principi, all my puppets are named I Principi, I Principi is my only important, and largest nation. I do think (but can't verify, as you won't give us the report) that the report was posted by a puppet, and you killed my main nation for it. If it is possible to be killed completely, for filing a stupid report, which you never intended to break any rule with, and though friend and enemy seems to support you, there is absolutely no other option then quitting this game. I feel very wronged. Especially that you waited for a few weeks, treating us fair, and then just talked to some defenders and decided to start kicking around.

That must have been the first report of the kind. Let it be known: players had better not filed a request for a multi scan unless they're damn sure of themselves. If it turns out there was no multi'ing, you *and your friends* wíll get deleted!
Nahh, I filed two reports of potential multiing recently. I just made it clear that I was only suspicious.

On one of the reports, only two of the nations that I accused out of like eight were guilty, and on the other, one of the six was innocent.

Yet I explained that it was only suspicion, gave my rationale, and did not claim that the password had not been distributed to the regions that had been invaded (in each case there had been an invaded region involved).

The remarks about UN-multiing was 100% true, and ended in the kicking out of the UN of the nations Sorath and Linkervoorpoot. In my report I just mentioned the other report I posted. How can this be a point, after all those discussions on this topic, while the UN-multying report was never mentioned? Clarifying that, and in my opinion completely solving the correct UN-multying report issue, was just a word.

The counter-invasion was perfectly legal. The Belgium region may have had some multi's in it, but that was completely irrelevent to the Central Asia incident.

I told before, and as you can read in the forum-copies, we felt wronged by being kicked and banned, and not being told the password. I felt that we had the right to be there,

As you weren't natives...

The same that B&B says about his nation counts for me, I am I Principi, all my puppets are named I Principi, I Principi is my only important, and largest nation. I do think (but can't verify, as you won't give us the report) that the report was posted by a puppet, and you killed my main nation for it.

See, I don't spend all my free time memorizing everyone's puppets. I can barely keep track of my own. 'I Principi' was the nation that filed the report.

It was not wrong, mentioning the multiers in that report, as one of those nations took part in the defense. Linkervoorpoot, that is.

I do understand that you agree with their point, that we weren't natives etc. But I do not understand that I have to be punished for having another opinion at the time, and defend that opinion, which is of course as well legal.

I do not have the idea that you people change your mind very easily, as it would affect the respect you get from other players. This is too bad, I feel that this is wrong, though I guess there will never be justice. I hope real life is slightly different.

I will leave then. And I will stop arguing about it. Kicked out of a nice game for filing a righteous-meant mod report. It's a bloody shame, and Neutered Sputniks and you are responsible for it. There is nothing glorious about the way you handled this case. It is a disappointment for me, and for all other players who believe in justice.

The goal of the moderators is to make NS a better place. Therefore they have to remove those that spoil the game for the other players, by violating the rules. I am convinced that we do not match this description. We were in some way respected by all decent friends and enemies we met. We brought life, fun and humour to many regions, and we are more or less appreciated by the natives of all those regions. Our enemies say they'd miss us, as you've spoiled the 'warmaking' part of the game for them too. I can only say, with bitterness in my heart: congratulations, dear mods. You did a nice job.

I want to finish this post by asking you again, gently, to be reasonable about the other players. You have deleted the violator, all other victims had nothing to do with all this. They just had bad luck, fighting in the same camp as I did. They should not be punished for something they knew nothing about. Restoring them would be a respectable demonstration of humanity and compassion.

With kindest regards,
The Nuclear Moloch Empire of I Principi

So now you admit to your wrong, and you still think that I went overboard by telling Hack to delete all the nations involved in the setup?

still think that I went overboard by telling Hack to delete all the nations involved in the setup?

Ah, "involved". You mean by this that we willingly and knowingly assisted in the setup. There's no basis whatsoever for this assumption, and it has been proven wrong explicitly, mr. Senior Game Moderator. ( :arrow: remember: http://users.pandora.be/ward.kerckhof/evenMoreProof.jpg ?)

But I guess I Principi is right. You can't admit you're wrong, as that would tarnish your reputation of infallibility.

Well, I'll let you in on this one: it's pretty much ruined already, since noone understands why Karnemelk, Jewelste and Black&Blue were deleted. Sure, the players continue to pay their respect, but it's only out of fear for those trigger-happy mods. You guys rule :!:

I wonder where it will end. This might sound like a cliché, but about a year ago, when I started playing this game, it was more fun. "Bad things" were still allowed to happen, one was invaded and then tried to get back at the invaders etcetera.
A game, right?
"Nasty" invaders kicked everyone out, "good" ones tried to blend in. Spammers were not very frequent and were frowned upon (and ejected, when one got the chance).

Then came the changes. One of them being the introduction of the 'founder'. And the possibility of passwording the region. Two measures sure to give poor regions all the chance of defending themselves. To no avail. "Poor" regions were just not awake. Though they were offered a solid lock and a permanent guard at the door, they ignored this. They lay wide open to invasions; possibly, they couldn't even care less.

So the mods stepped in. "Griefing" was defined and a few dozen other "illegal actions". The question is if this game really needs "supercops-with-a-God-complex". If so, doesn't this show clearly that the game has many shortcomings, TECHNICALLY seen?
You don't want invasions to happen? Fine, then make it so that it can't happen.
You don't want region hoppers? Ditto (where will it end? "xxx has ceased to exist because of uttering the forbidden word of 'trout'"??).
Isn't it all becoming a little bit too absurd?

Recently, in this case, I couldn't believe my eyes when "off-site forum material" was being included.
You MUST BE KIDDING. It strikes me that the mods actually deem this material worthy of their time and effort (time better spent at answering appeals from nations who feel they were wrongfully ejected from the UN if you ask me!).
It's once again a sample of how far the mods actually go or think that they have to go.

Moderators should moderate, not rule! They are to be butlers, not bullies!
And if they do have to interfere, vindictiveness should not be entering their attitude, as clearly was the case here.

Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I should read Max Barry's book. Maybe all of this is his way to demonstrate a point: create a universe, gradually make it into a "Brave New World" and see how many people will put up with it.
As of now, too many, I'm afraid.

You're right, but what about it? Shouldn't we be thinking of a more systematic means of protesting against this overregulation / modding for the sake of it?

You're right, but what about it? Shouldn't we be thinking of a more systematic means of protesting against this overregulation / modding for the sake of it?

admin@nationstates.net

This was the reason for our deletion:

Neutered Sputniks
Senior Game Moderator

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:52 pm Post subject:

You assisted in the setup of Ostente, therefore, you are just as guilty as the person who filed the report.

Similar to a griefing invasion. Those that assist in taking over the region are just as guilty as the delegate who does the kicking.


The off-game material however clearly proves that plans for a setup only took shape AFTER Karnemelk and B&B Army are kicked out of Central Asia and that nobody has agreed to anything yet when IP decides (on his own!) to file a report.
So there is no ground for accusing us of assisting in a setup. Why only accept the fragments Ballotonia gave you for the purpose of evaluation and not the posts I gave you here? Ballotonia can confirm that they haven't been modified at all.

Must be I'm right, cause this is the third time I mention this proof and no answer whatsoever.

Taken from:
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=120738

Why is this issue getting plastered all over other threads??
I'm responding here.


Well, perhaps it's because your view of it being a mistake does not mean it was - that's just your opinion.

Well, the same goes for your view, except that you have the power to delete nations.

One might also mention that "my" opinion is also the opinion of Ostendt, Ballotonia, Riemstagrad and Feisty (and others). And yours is, well, just yours... except that you have power over life and death... bummer :(

Please note there are a few subtle differences in our perspective on this. I do believe you, but at the same time acknowledge I might be wrong in doing so.

Maybe our opinions are different for information we have that we're not at liberty to discuss?

It's kinda funny. I dont give out any information and I get blasted for it, so I give out a little bit and get blasted for giving it out. One way or the other I'm getting blasted, so I prefer keeping our secrets.

I expressed my disappointment towards the moderator team, I did not blast you.

Also, I fail to see why you getting blasted or not is part of the reasoning here. Whether or not information is disclosed should IMHO be an entirely separate discussion, and I would favor disclosure when possible. If that is not possible in this case, so be it.

Ballotonia

So then if you favor disclosure, why did you post a statement condemning the disclosure of information in this very thread?

So then if you favor disclosure, why did you post a statement condemning the disclosure of information in this very thread?

I would favor disclosure when possible

When it ruins a players position in the game, and if this is not done as a punishment, disclosure should not occur. Hence, WHEN POSSIBLE. I'm not saying all information should always be disclosed, nor did I say to never disclose any information. Mods have to use their judgment in deciding what to disclose and what not. While I believe disclosure should be done when possible, I still feel you made an error in judgment when you quoted those off-site forum posts.

Since I cannot think of any reason to not disclose I Principi's mod report, I'm merely raising disclosing it as a possibility. I fully understand that the decision to disclose or not is up to the mods, and is from the player's perspective by its nature a non-verifyable one when and if the decision is made to not disclose.

Ballotonia

*double post deleted*

Neutered Sputniks wrote:
Maybe our opinions are different for information we have that we're not at liberty to discuss?


Contrary to Ballotonia, I can be sure of my own innocence and that of Karnemelk. So I can also be sure that there can be no extra information that incriminates us.

There can only be seriously misinterpreted information, as was the case with the forum fragments (which showes again the dangers of using off-site material as proof). I'm still waiting for counterarguments there, I'm one of the three nations deleted but never get any answers. So for now, me and Karnemelk are guilty "because the mods say so".

Well, Neut and Ballotonia, you should both realize that it's very frustrating to get convicted on the basis of evidence you can't look into. We're not getting a proper chance to defend ourselves.