NationStates Jolt Archive

Greetings,

Situation: Invaders plant a non-UN puppet in a region, and later try to take that region by force. They fail, as other invaders ('defenders') beat them and take the region first, kicking out all invading UN Nations.

Question: does the planted non-UN puppet (which didn't participate in any hostilities) count as a native, or as an invader?

Rembrandt - (looking only for an authoritative answer)

just bumping it up ;)

I would guess native, since they are not part of anything, but thats just my 2¢ worth.

Letter of the law vs. spirit of the law, perhaps.

Lemmie get a second opinion on this...

I would say that the non-UN puppet would count as an invader. Reason being was this puppet was placed in the region for no other purpose but to spy on the region for the purpose of invading it.

Also.. don't forget.. the only reason the puppet didn't par take is because it couldn't because it was a non UN nation. it was a puppet.. and probably a puppet of some one who did take part.

Stephanie
Game Moderator

Thank you for both your answer and the added reasoning. It has done a lot to clarify my confusion on the rules.

Rembrandt

Another question; how are we to know what is a invader puppet and what is a native puppet?

Cannot the ruling on giving out passwords once a region is passworded be changed so that you only have to give it to UN nations? :?:

why? so natives without an un nation in the region can be kicked out, and can't return?

invader puppets can be found out in 2 ways:

obvious puppets

good intell

Thats a bit of an overreaction CG i never said anything about ejecting native puppets, the xml feed can determine nativity for the puppets i'm only argueing that we should have the loop hole to give the pass to UN nations so we dont give it to invader puppets.

Good intell is all well and good (and i should know!) but it doesn't compare to the rules being better formulated.

Greetings,

Situation: Invaders plant a non-UN puppet in a region, and later try to take that region by force. They fail, as other invaders ('defenders') beat them and take the region first, kicking out all invading UN Nations.

Question: does the planted non-UN puppet (which didn't participate in any hostilities) count as a native, or as an invader?

Rembrandt - (looking only for an authoritative answer) :(

The puppet is definitly an invader!

Thats a bit of an overreaction CG i never said anything about ejecting native puppets, the xml feed can determine nativity for the puppets i'm only argueing that we should have the loop hole to give the pass to UN nations so we dont give it to invader puppets.

Good intell is all well and good (and i should know!) but it doesn't compare to the rules being better formulated.

A., think about it..
sure, the xml feed comes in handy, but it it doesn't hold all the answers..

and there are many regions with little to no un members, if they get invaded, the invaders kick out some native non un nations, put a password on the place, and don't have to give it to the natives, since they're not in the un. how will these natives return home then, if you don't have to give the pass to the natives?

Thats a bit of an overreaction CG i never said anything about ejecting native puppets, the xml feed can determine nativity for the puppets i'm only argueing that we should have the loop hole to give the pass to UN nations so we dont give it to invader puppets.

Good intell is all well and good (and i should know!) but it doesn't compare to the rules being better formulated.

A., think about it..
sure, the xml feed comes in handy, but it it doesn't hold all the answers..

and there are many regions with little to no un members, if they get invaded, the invaders kick out some native non un nations, put a password on the place, and don't have to give it to the natives, since they're not in the un. how will these natives return home then, if you don't have to give the pass to the natives?

I would say that the non-UN puppet would count as an invader. Reason being was this puppet was placed in the region for no other purpose but to spy on the region for the purpose of invading it.

Also.. don't forget.. the only reason the puppet didn't par take is because it couldn't because it was a non UN nation. it was a puppet.. and probably a puppet of some one who did take part.

Stephanie
Game Moderator

While the only consistent law of nature I like is that nothing is always consistent, this makes sense to me. I think there could be an exception (only exception I can see is if the non-UN puppet was in the region long before the invasion, and does not take place in the invasion). For the most part, though, this makes sense to me Steph.

I know of a few people who run upwards of a hundred puppets and place them in several regions only to claim nativity later on. I bring this up because the question was very similar to this circumstance. Any chance I could get a mod ruling on that? Or should I elaborate to be more clear?

I know of a few people who run upwards of a hundred puppets and place them in several regions only to claim nativity later on. I bring this up because the question was very similar to this circumstance. Any chance I could get a mod ruling on that? Or should I elaborate to be more clear?

That thought occured to me too, as I do have more than a few nations strewn over nationStates myself. My personal solution for now is that I simply do not claim nativity for any nation when I'm not truly active in a region. Not even when an invader kicks me out and fails to send the password (it has happened). After all, there's a catch 22: if that puppet were to be regarded native, it would likely end up to be considered a plant in a future (counter) invasion, and as such non-native. If not considered native, it could have repercussions for lots of regular nations just sitting there minding their own business.

Personally, I prefer the game to be played in a way where different invader groups battle each other, with minimum hassle towards non-combatants. Intel and careful observation can be used to differentiate between innocent bystanders and plants by 'the enemy'. Note this is why I phrased my question the way I did: basing the described situation on information I already knew instead of some determination which players cannot make as part of normal gameplay. Downside ofcourse is that it requires a certain amount of restraint and honesty on all sides. It does happen that I see obvious non-natives claim to be natives, on the Civil HQ or even in telegram accompanied with a demand for a password or more.

Rembrandt