NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello, I have just ejected every single nation from the region of Dystopia. I know this is illegal, but please allow me to explain.

Originally, Dystopia was created by the nation The Brave Old World months before founders were granted Founder Powers, this has caused many problems with overzealous UN Delegates that he could not control (Delegates banning random people with little provocation. Basically power hungriness). All problems were solved when this nation was created to act as a neutral delegate. The Dystopians who remained neutral backed this nation and we siezed power. The old delegate finally saw her corruption and gave power up willingly. Peace had returned to Dystopia after many weeks of quarrelling. However... since Sunday, new nations have been flooding Dystopia (Our population rose from 21 to 39). I think you can understand our concern. This deluge of nations offered peace, but it was quickly obvious that half of them wanted to steal the region, while the other half was here to protect it (thank you to those good nations). Waking up today, we noticed that one of the invaders had more votes than the current delegate (West Strum Und Drang) when he had only been in the region for a day, and his supporters had been in the region for the same ammount of time. We had to take action. All of the original Dystopians agreed weeks ago that this action was acceptable to them to give The Brave Old World founder powers so we could avoid sill in-wars and pointless fights. WSUD thought ejecting everyone was a bit severe, but in light of recent events, it became necessary. We did not have enough time to ask for help from the mods before the invaders would steal the region from us and do whatever it is they wanted. This led me to eject everyone from the region, password protect the region, and ask for your help. We would love to be able to return to Dystopia freely with The Brave Old World having founder powers (so we could turn off the Delegate's ability to have power). We are now trying to recollect ourselves in Neu Dystopia, but it is not our home. We want to return, so we beg for your help (even though what WSUD has dones is forbidden). Please, please help us!

(I'm sure this is all too common for you guys, and for that we apologize.)

I'm not a moderator (just a Modling), so I cannot help directly. But one question that will be asked is, "Why did you not just eject the invaders?"

http://www.satanstephen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/NewImprovedSal.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

We thought about that (a very good idea), but we wanted to prevent this from happening again, so we hoped that The Brave Old World could recreate the region as soon as everyone was gone, that way BOW could have founding powers and we could prevent this from happening again. (Frankly, I--as BOW-- was very annoyed when the founding powers were created because I didn't receive them. They would have prevented so many pointless fights)

I hope this is a sufficient answer?

Not really.

Problem is this:

If the original members of the region had agreed to refound the region weeks earlier, why had no move been made to do so? And why did you not simply eject the invaders, keep them gone till right before the update tonight and then have the other natives move out of the region, allowing it to be deleted in the update, and then refound it immediately following?

I fail to see where it was truly needed for these natives to be ejected.

As an eye-witness to the whole train wreck, I can attest that the action was bourn out of panic of the percieved desperation of the situation. As the events were unfolding, I tried to councel WSUD but the atmosphere was clouded by a confusion of the moment. I have more to say but want to get this posted...

I submit that it is not too late to correct the situation. The region has not yet ceased to exisit, natives have been unbanned and there is still time to return to the region, telegram the pw to natives and proceeed in a proper fashion. The region has existed in relative calm and had no impitus to learn the finer points of law and procedure in such matters. I recommend to Neut that if these conditions be met and and I could council the natives upon proper procedures, that we might be able to solve this without interuption.

Let me think about this. It affects quite a bit of future game play.

Not really.

Problem is this:

If the original members of the region had agreed to refound the region weeks earlier, why had no move been made to do so? And why did you not simply eject the invaders, keep them gone till right before the update tonight and then have the other natives move out of the region, allowing it to be deleted in the update, and then refound it immediately following?

I fail to see where it was truly needed for these natives to be ejected.I thought the delegate was allowed to eject people from the region if they agree that it should be done so they can recreate the region. Wasn't that the case? Maybe I'm confused with a different scenario.

Delegate is allowed to eject a VERY small number of INACTIVE natives. Neither is the case here.

If a Post-Master is unsure about the finer points of region recreation, how can a quiet region who keeps to themselves hope to comply with the letter of the law? The current (ok, former) delegate has only posted in this thread and the proper founder only twice on matters of a non-technical or legal matters. Certainly some kind of lienency is in order. I kringe to think of the invaders who have gotten of scot-free on much more nefarious charges. Not to mention that the nation in question brought the matter before the mods himself.

Yes, but we must look at the overall precedent set.

Very much agreed. In fact I am trying to retreive certain past judgements but am having a lot of trouble with the forum section of NS at the moment Please allow me a few moments to get at the ___ ___ things.

If a Post-Master is unsure about the finer points of region recreation, how can a quiet region who keeps to themselves hope to comply with the letter of the law? The current (ok, former) delegate has only posted in this thread and the proper founder only twice on matters of a non-technical or legal matters. Certainly some kind of lienency is in order. I kringe to think of the invaders who have gotten of scot-free on much more nefarious charges. Not to mention that the nation in question brought the matter before the mods himself. :oops: @ being called postmaster as a title of respect.

The rules are deliberately vauge in this area of the game. The reason for this is that if it was about following the letter of the law, people would find loopholes that allowed them to greif. Therefore, mods exist to enforce the spirit of the law.

Personally, I think this could go further. If no-one in your region (aside from the invaders) minds being ejected so a new region can be formed, it seems kinda like a victimless crime. Obviously, my opinion on this doesn't count that much, but thats my thoughts on it.

Spoffin
Not a Mod

Well, I'm not having a whole lotta luck with the rest of the forums right now but here's what I had in mind. Not too long ago a nation called Kenshin Himura greifed his own region and tried to lodge a complaint against my puppet in this very forum! As you will see when you peruse the record, KH ejected a significant number of his own countrymen without informing them other than a breif Civil HQ mssg that if anyone didn't have a problem with his clearing the region, he would do so. He did eject a very large number of his region without response. Even with his insistance that he be punished he was not. I (as my puppet) even asked that he be spared. Indeed, I brought no charges against him and even asked for lienency. KH gambled and failed and is still here to talk about it. The current situation is not much different except that discussion and agreement was acheived before hand even if they were not available to make the move for themeselves.

Amen to the spirit of the law!!! I think that is my point exactly.

Over the past few weeks I've been able to get the consent of most of the members (Not a single one declined, but most of them were impossible to reach because they only check their Nations once every few days, and some don't even bother looking at the region as a whole, as shown by the few that have returned to Neu Dystopia). I'm sorry that I have placed such a burdonsome decision upon the mods, but if I hadn't taken action then, I'm afraid that we might have been locked out of our region permanently. As it is, simply returning to our little region wouldn't solve the problem because it leaves us open for further invasion in the future. How I wish it were so simple just to return. "Why not password protect it?" you might say? We've had a password before and no one in the region liked it. We can't have a password again because we want to be open. Well then, the only way we could think of fixing the problem is allowing the original founder to refound it and take away the UN Delegate's power (The founding country isn't a part of the UN, and never will be) and give the power that should have belonged to the founder to it.

Here's a simple solution? Give The Brave Old World founder's power in Dystopia, and delete West Strum Und Drang, since this nation completely broke the rules? (Both nations are mine, however. WSUD was the region's way of giving BOW founder's powers indirectly.) That would keep your precedent safe by allowing justice to be served for the citizens of Dystopia, and your own justice against WSUD for breaking the rules.

(It also must be said that no other nation can come in and steal founder's powers. Even though that is a truism, it was the grounds for WSUD's actions.)

The rules are deliberately vauge in this area of the game. The reason for this is that if it was about following the letter of the law, people would find loopholes that allowed them to greif. Therefore, mods exist to enforce the spirit of the law.

Personally, I think this could go further. If no-one in your region (aside from the invaders) minds being ejected so a new region can be formed, it seems kinda like a victimless crime.

On the one hand it is a deliberate infringement of the rules and therefore can’t go by without rebuke. On the other hand it might be a case of a victimless crime as you say. Perhaps a Mod puppet as founder, the possibility of a UN ban for the offender and a cooling off period when natives are allowed back into the region to have their say on what happened.

Maybe if anyone has XML feeds or the like that might show who were the natives posts them up they can be contacted.

Allowing this action to stand would set a big precedent even though the rules appear to have been broken without malice. Many nations simply abandon the game when sent to the rejected realms and many players are not aware or active in the realm of invasions and defences and need to be protected from the fallout when not involved.

you ask, we deliver...a list of the natives ;)

the_brave_old_world:daermon_nashezbaernon:
the_pillar_of_autumn:strum_und_drang:lame_dogs:the_men_of_the_sea:
sallanio:crescent_lake:quivera:xlordofterrorx:master_cheif:
nashezbaernon:
west_strum_und_drang:gehbot:the_tri-steel_legion:
abaddon_sheol:maniactime:foolarchia:sabotender:neo-commie-nazis:

in that order.

A number of the Mods discussed this situation earlier this evening and came to the following decision:

We feel that the Delegate was acting in earnest with the deletions. However, before we take any action, we would like to see the natives post here what action(s) they desire to be taken in regards to this issue.

Would it also be appropriate here for the natives to voice verification that The Brave Old World was indeed the ACTUAL founder and opinions on whether TBOW should be granted foundership status as was rightfully his? This whole mess could have been avoided if the natives were aware of the procedure for requesting foundership. Too many nations are under the impression that NO founderships are being granted but this is not the case. You do have to be the ACTUAL founder and be able to show verification and support of the region for this request. Because of the requirements, it is becoming much rarer for this to be granted but last I heard it still is done. I think the region probably was given bad advice that led to the events of yesterday.

I'm the only other nation left in Dystopia that was around when the region was founded. (Ignore the fact that I'm kind of at the end in the nation's listing in the XML feed, I was one of the nations ejected for no reason by our renegade delegate weeks ago). I can verify that The Brave Old World is indeed the founder of Dystopia. I also feel that The Brave Old World should therefore be given foundership status. I wonder if something could be put in the FAQ to let regions without founders know that foundership can be given out? That would definitely have helped us.
As for what should be done, I agree with BOW. BOW should be given founder powers and WSUD should be deleted.
Hopefully this'll give the mods a little more insight into the situation. Also, FYI, if you're waiting for feedback from the other natives, you're going to have to wait several days, since most only check their nations every few days.

*coughbump*
Is this case as closed as the moderators make it appear to be?

Since none of your fellow region members have posted here in over a week, I'm inclined to leave the situation as is. No mod action either way. In the future, please heed warnings from friends ;)