NationStates Jolt Archive

I would like some clarification on various rules governing invasions. Moderator responses would be appreciated, but are not expected. In other words, if you know or have an opinion backed by proof, please respond.

-I realize you are allowed to ban approximately 40% of a region (though it is strongly suggested that you eject far less than that amount), and that you must unban them immediately. However, does this apply to the current delegate (the unbanning immediately part, not the unbanning itself)? For instance, can you wait till the next update to unban him (by then his endorsements would be gone, a tactical advantage for invaders)?

-Is circumventing passwords legal? Assume a group of invaders had gained a password to a region (legally, no hacking or anything else like that), would using it to invade be illegal?

-In the above example, assuming the invasion is successful, is it legal for the invaders to leave the current password in place? Must they still notify the natives of the password if they do not change the password?

-How is "nativity" metered? Is it defined as in the region at the time of invasion, present for X amount of time prior to the invasion, a frequent visitor of the region, or something else entirely?

-If a native nation joins the invaders (without leaving the region) is it still considered an invasion? For instance, say nation X asked his friends (nations A-W) to move into his region Y and endorse him. He then becomes delegate and password protects the region. Is that then griefing (as invaders cannot password protect a region without informing the natives of it) or merely tyrannical (native delegate have no such restriction)?

-When do invaders become native, assuming they hold a region for an extended period of time? Or are they always subject to the rules governing invaders?

-I assume that "anti-invaders" (such as the Elite Ghosts) are subject to the same rules as invaders, am I correct?

This concludes my list of questions. Thank you for your time.

-The Disordered Orderer

While I do reside in Fortress Harkinnen (an infamous region with an abysmal invasion record) I am not posting as a representative of said region. I ask out of curiosity, and a strong desire to avoid being nuked should I ever join the UN and participate in an invasion (or counter-invasion).

This is NOT an official mod response, just someone speaking from experience. I'm gonna number your questions just for clarity.

1. The 40% rule is an urban legand, it's not a rule. You must unban all natives immediatly, even the delegate you just overthrew. No waiting til the next update.

2. Yes it's legal. It's also good spy work. Thumbs up.

3. Yes you can leave the same password, but you are still required to give it out to all natives.

4. That's a toughy. It all has to do with intent. Just planting a puppet in a region and letting it sit there 6 months doesn't automatically make it a native. I believe puppets are just that, puppets. You can have nations scattered all around the globe (or whatever the heck NS calls this "world"), but they are still puppets. Your main nation sets your intent. You can't be a native in more than one region.

5. Yes. He's only in power thanks to the invaders. I believe this should also should be the case for defenders. If he passwords the region then it must be supplied to all the natives.

6. Invaders are never natives in the regions they invade.

7. I agree, but that's still up for discussion.


Also, Hippos are Big!

also not a mod ;)



1. The 40% rule is an urban legand, it's not a rule. You must unban all natives immediatly, even the delegate you just overthrew. No waiting til the next update.



but here (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1478151#1478151) it says:

Max and [violet] have both spoken on the subject, and so long as an invasion does not do the following things, they are considered a legal form of play:

-Ejecting a large number of natives (judged on a case-by-case scenario- 40% is a good meterstick for measuring it though)


as for the rest, i have to agree with you, but i'm not sure about the password, if the natives put it there, and the invaders don't change it..
it's an interesting question ;)

also, i believe puppets can be natives, but the native stuff does have to do with intent too (i'm still kinda confused on that one too...)

40% is a good meterstick - not a set-in-stone rule.

To be honest, it all depends on size of the region.

yeah, i've heard about that, something called a grey area or something..

but what about the password thing, and the puppets?

You know this is a topic that gets brought up a lot, Nothingg, good responses, Neut, I assume you mean by It all depends on the size of the region, by the interpretation of how much 40% is equal to in a small region and how many it is in a larger region.

This is also jsut a suggestion, but in order to put an end to the continual resurrection, perhaps the mods, representatives of our most active invaders and representatives of our most active anti invaders (still technically invaders long story but one of the anti's banned a puppet of mine from its home region as part of a Defence of it) all get together and pound out a set of actual rules and guidelines. good idea? bad Idea?
Caek Get??

We've tried that before Loop. It wont work. That grey area is needed in the rules, otherwise we'd be creating loopholes and be bound by the rules to allow them.

The problem though is, I have found it hard on my own to track down statements on some of the rules that seem to be pretty much always applicable, e.g. if a delegate password-protects a region the password must be distributed to all of the natives, or that natives who are ejected must immediately be unbanned. I understand the need for grey areas and case-by-case assessments, but in using that as a reason for not creating any list of rules for invasions, it makes it very difficult to point to the "rule" that's being "broken" if one of these things happens.

An incident in my region a couple of weeks ago prompted me to ask in this forum whether it was region griefing. The responses that were most helpful quoted mod statements from various threads (and it is an indicator that this is a *great* place when there are people helpful enough to pick out those statements and respond to a clueless newbie's question). But if there had been one thread or some other central place where invasion rules were listed, I would have found the information on my own. Such a listing could have an "illegal" section, an "legal" section, and a "grey area" section, possibly with some examples of real-life (real-game?) scenarios where rulings went one way or the other.

Thank you for your responses, sorry I could not voice my appreciation sooner.

I would like to see a more complete listing of the "rules" (gray area and all), even if it were only a list of relevant links to this forum.

I have also thought of another question.

-If an invader delegate convinces the native members of the invaded region to endorse him (assuming 50+% endorse him), is he still considered an invader? What if the other invading nations leave?

-The Disordered Orderer

I certainly hope this thread isn't old enough for this post to be considered grave-digging...

How about we just say 'Rulings will be made on a case-by-case basis,' hmmm?

I understand that these "rules" are not set in stone and may be discarded in some cases, but general guidelines are always a good thing.

Of course, the moderators could always remove this forum and the FAQ if they think it's pointless to set down guidelines....

-The Disordered Orderer

As Neut has said... there needs to be a grey area left so that the mods can interpret the rules, leaving out loopholes. I think what the mods have basically been saying is 'if in doubt, don't do it.'

As for your question:
"-If an invader delegate convinces the native members of the invaded region to endorse him (assuming 50+% endorse him), is he still considered an invader? What if the other invading nations leave?"

I would say that if an invading delegate has still got invader endorsements... then it counts as an invasion, because technically it is the invader's endorsements holding him/her in power... If you see what I mean.
Don't take this as gospel truth though, you'll have to wait for a proper game mod response.

I would like to see a more complete listing of the "rules" (gray area and all), even if it were only a list of relevant links to this forum.



There is a thread started in the Gameplay Forum. It looks like it will simply be a link to relevant threads, but Im thinking of starting a new one where quotes are compiled ie: the threads minus all the irrelavancies.
Check it out, help out even, its only fledgling so the more support the better.

edit: heres the url http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108793 "Thread database on Invading."

As Neut has said... there needs to be a grey area left so that the mods can interpret the rules, leaving out loopholes. I think what the mods have basically been saying is 'if in doubt, don't do it.'

As for your question:
"-If an invader delegate convinces the native members of the invaded region to endorse him (assuming 50+% endorse him), is he still considered an invader? What if the other invading nations leave?"

I would say that if an invading delegate has still got invader endorsements... then it counts as an invasion, because technically it is the invader's endorsements holding him/her in power... If you see what I mean.
Don't take this as gospel truth though, you'll have to wait for a proper game mod response.

Myrth's got the right idea. For a delegate to be considered a native delegate, he/she must have enough native support to remain in that position without the assistance of other non-natives - invaders or neutral.

We've tried that before Loop. It wont work. That grey area is needed in the rules, otherwise we'd be creating Loopholes and be bound by the rules to allow them.

no need to do that, the ones I have are serving their purposes fine, Im quite happy with the current number I have.

seriously though, it is those very smae grey areas that cause all the trouble when a mod acts on them, perhaps a little ground rules should be layed out, in some matter, perhaps a Faq expalining th elegal concept of invading and one explaining the Illegal concept of invading, perhaps I could get Ack interesting in helping write one and get you guys to fill in what you feel is needed to help difine the two. perhaps include stuff that is a definite No No for illegal ones as well as legal ones.

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Loop,
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