NationStates Jolt Archive

Does my country's motto: "Why Do Islamic Countries Suck???" offend anyone?

If so, please tell me why in a rational response.

ITS NOT PC DAMNIT!!!

Doesn't bother me, But I am not a Liberal or a Muslim.

All the "white power" chit that goes on with some people's countries is not "PC" either, but it is allowed.

I am saying that Islamic forms of gov't suck, not that Islam, or Muslims suck.

There is no differance between why motto and a motto that might say "Down with Democracy" or something like that.

I guess it offends the Muslims. At first glance, the sentence seems to say Muslim is inferior.

I'm not personally offended by it, since I'm not a Muslim (any offence I feel on behalf of Islamic friends is entirely moot). However, I'll go far enough as to say it's a rather long bow to draw to say that every single Muslim country "sucks".
This probably isn't the time for a history lesson, but Islam has in the past produced a large number of thinkers and men of science whose ideas the non-Muslim world has shamelessly adopted. As for that traveller fellow, Ibn Battuta or whatever it is (the name's gone at just the wrong time), what I've read about him suggests that he was quite an interesting sort as well.
The problem is that, as with any group of people, some "bad apples" have ruined the world's impressions of Islamic people or even people from officially Muslim states. Sure, Osama bin Laden and his ilk aren't great examples of their faith, but then again neither would your average Ku Klux Klan member be the best advertisement for Christianity.

You're more likely to get away with broad insults of an entire group on the forums rather than in your motto.

I guess it offends the Muslims. At first glance, the sentence seems to say Muslim is inferior.

Well regions being named "white power" probably offends some people, but NS allows it. Why are the NS Mods trying to make me change my motto?

"In God We Trust" offends people, but it is still the USA's motto.

Besides, I am not saying Muslims suck, I am saying Islamic forms of government that oppress the citizens of their country suck. Just look at Iran, Saudi, Egypt, or Syria to see what I am saying.

There is no differance in what I am saying than if someone would be saying "Down with Democracy."

I am bashing the governments, and if I have to change my motto, it is only fair to make everyone who has some aspect of their country; weather it be their country name, region name, motto, animal, currency, flag, or form of government; that could possibly offend someone's personal beliefs, preferance on form of govt, racist, sexist, or in any way bashes some group of people, should have the make the proper changes also.

Besides, I am not saying Muslims suck, I am saying Islamic forms of government that oppress the citizens of their country suck. Just look at Iran, Saudi, Egypt, or Syria to see what I am saying.
Turkey is an Islamic country also.

Oh and you're also more likely to get away with something if you don't go around advertising it.




Its like driving illegally (no liscence or whatever)

Don't draw attention to yourself.

Americans Only, that list you've provided can be broken down in the following way:

Iran - yep, a 100% Muslim state. A theocracy by any other name is a problem on the world scale, whether it's Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever else. The fact that the oppressive leaders are Muslim is neither here nor there.

Sa'udi Arabia - the distinction needs to be made between the "state religion" and the "state". I'll be the first to admit that the fine line between them is being blurred considerably by the House of Sa'ud and the Wahhabist sect, but it strikes me that an absolute monarchy (as exists in Riyadh) will always be oppressive regardless of where it prays.

Egypt - a one-party state which has (at various times in its history) removed Islamists from positions of influence is oppressive but not as Islamic as you claim. If Nasser and his successors were using an "Islamic form of government", then the execution of Sayyid Qutb' is even more mystifying as he was a key theorist as to what form an Islamic government might take.

Syria - I'm open to being proved wrong here, but last time I was up-to-date with Syrian politics they were an officially secular state under al-Assad (either junior or senior). Oppressive, yes, peculiarly Islamic, no.

What you're arguing about is a list of some countries with Islamic communities. Many of these countries are oppressive. The problem is that the oppression and the Islamic community don't always go hand-in-hand, where you claim that they do.

As a side note, "In God We Trust" is a completely different kettle of fish to "Why Do Muslim Countries Suck?". The former simply affirms the faith of the nation using it, the latter denigrates the faith and the politics of a swathe of other countries.
Additionally, I could have sworn that "E Pluribus Unam" was the American motto.

Oh and you're also more likely to get away with something if you don't go around advertising it.




Its like driving illegally (no liscence or whatever)

Don't draw attention to yourself.

I wasnt advertising it, i was in the same peaceful region I have been in and then suddenly I started recieving complaints from people outside my region about my motto. What the hell is up with that?

Yes I find it offensive because it steriotypes and judges a group of people without explanation. But you have a right to be offensive, I only mention it because you ask.

I see nothing wrong with the motto, but if you want people to shut up, change it to "Shariah law sucks" or something.

As a side note, "In God We Trust" is a completely different kettle of fish to "Why Do Muslim Countries Suck?". The former simply affirms the faith of the nation using it, the latter denigrates the faith and the politics of a swathe of other countries.


the "faith" of the US of Americans Only is the never answered question "why do Islamic countries suck?"

My country's population all asks this question, and it has been the motto since it was founded, I do not see why just now it is becomming an issue to people.

the "faith" of the US of Americans Only is the never answered question "why do Islamic countries suck?"

My country's population all asks this question, and it has been the motto since it was founded, I do not see why just now it is becomming an issue to people.
That's a nice way of dodging the point, but it doesn't work here. You used this motto (In God We Trust) as an example of an offensive motto which hasn't been changed. I, despite reservations as to whether this is actually the motto of the nation in question or just the text on the Presidential Seal, made a point which you have not yet answered.

"In God We Trust" is a simple affirmation. It says that "we" (the people of the USA) have trust in "God". We'll take that to mean the Judeo-Christian God, but I'm reasonably certain that some of your courts have held that it can mean other deities as well.
"Why Do Islamic Countries Suck?", on the other hand, denigrates one or two things. At its most literal, it denigrates the religion of Islam and if we accept your arguments as laid out on this thread it denigrates the governmental type of a series of Islamic nations. Technically speaking, it should only really denigrate Iran here, but we'll take your list (Iran, Sa'udi Arabia, Egypt and Syria).

If you can't see the difference yet, imagine what the world reaction would be if the USA suddenly changed its motto to "Saddam Hussein Sucks" or "We Hate North Korea". Bush could just as easily fall back on the defence that you're using here ("it affirms the faith of our people"), but the uproar would have to be seen to be believed.

That's a nice way of dodging the point, but it doesn't work here. You used this motto (In God We Trust) as an example of an offensive motto which hasn't been changed. I, despite reservations as to whether this is actually the motto of the nation in question or just the text on the Presidential Seal, made a point which you have not yet answered.

"In God We Trust" is a simple affirmation. It says that "we" (the people of the USA) have trust in "God". We'll take that to mean the Judeo-Christian God, but I'm reasonably certain that some of your courts have held that it can mean other deities as well.
"Why Do Islamic Countries Suck?", on the other hand, denigrates one or two things. At its most literal, it denigrates the religion of Islam and if we accept your arguments as laid out on this thread it denigrates the governmental type of a series of Islamic nations. Technically speaking, it should only really denigrate Iran here, but we'll take your list (Iran, Sa'udi Arabia, Egypt and Syria).

If you can't see the difference yet, imagine what the world reaction would be if the USA suddenly changed its motto to "Saddam Hussein Sucks" or "We Hate North Korea". Bush could just as easily fall back on the defence that you're using here ("it affirms the faith of our people"), but the uproar would have to be seen to be believed.

I understand what you are saying completely, but this is not the "real world." This is NS. I resigned from the NS UN because I did not want to be subject to laws that I may not agree with. No one in my region has voiced a complaint about my motto. People have searched me out and sent me t-grams saying that my motto offends them. One of them from a region called "white power" of all people. I have never posted anywhere any names like "Towel head" or anthing that would offend an Arab or a Muslim. My country is the "anti-Islamic Republic," and my motto affirms the stance of my govt.

I am saying that Islamic forms of gov't suck, not that Islam, or Muslims suck.

There is no differance between why motto and a motto that might say "Down with Democracy" or something like that.[/quote]


In that case, I believe that a statement such as "Fundamentalist Theocracies suck" would be more appropriate. This way you're not isolating the religion of Islam specifically. The fact that most of the worlds contemporary theocracies happen to be Muslim does not necessarily imply anything about the tenets of Islam as a belief system. After all, Christian theocracies have been commonplace throughout European history, and one could even argue that the current Israeli government borders on a
Zionist theocracy.

Sincerely,
-Bongoranius-

In that case, I believe that a statement such as "Fundamentalist Theocracies suck" would be more appropriate. This way you're not isolating the religion of Islam specifically. The fact that most of the worlds contemporary theocracies happen to be Muslim does not necessarily imply anything about the tenets of Islam as a belief system. After all, Christian theocracies have been commonplace throughout European history, and one could even argue that the current Israeli government borders on a
Zionist theocracy.

Sincerely,
-Bongoranius-

Not a bad idea, however the Islamic Revolution in Iran wasnt called the Fundamentalist Theocracy Revolution. Islamic is the common term for their type of govt.

Saying "Down with Islam" is not quite the same as "Why does Islam suck?"...

Saying "Down with Islam" is not quite the same as "Why does Islam suck?"...

My motto is "why do Islamic countires suck?" not Islam its self. I happen to know the pillars of Islam and feel they are a very good foundation for an organized religion.

I respect Islam as much as I respect my own, it is the Islamic form of govt I do not like.

Ok, i am quite offended, :evil: even tho i know some of the islamic governments are doing badly, i wudnt quite say they were islamic governments.. :tantrum: . They dnt quite adopt the Shariah Law which is prescribed by the islamic religion. Most of the islamic countries have been forced to adopt a more western style of thinkin, taking into consideration all this lava about democracy etc. This has lead to most islamic country governments leading to curuption. They only do wot is neccesary for them to stay in power and nothing more. Therefore, they will follow the "Americans" as they know if they do so, they will stay in power... which is appalling but thats just the way it is!

[quote=Negatronia]I am not saying Muslims suck, I am saying Islamic forms of government that oppress the citizens of their country suck. Just look at Iran, Saudi, Egypt, or Syria to see what I am saying.

You're not saying "Islamic forms of government of suck" you are saying the countries do. You're also equating their forms of government with their religion. Iran is a religious orientated democracy by the way, Egypt a secular dictatorship, and Saudi Arabia a secularish monarchy.

I am offended by the motto, it leads me to assume you are ignorant and bigoted. You may not be, but you're giving out that impression. If you don't want to offend people the simple rule is to not be offensive towards them, it usually works.

Just pick a motto that most people won't understand, like mine.

Of course, they don't understand it because I didn't have enough room to actually put in the whole motto, which is as follows:

"To fight the darkness, you must become the darkness. Stare into the abyss, and see yourself."

"If you have to ask, the answer is no."

If you feel your motto is questionable, then you should take it down, IMHO. It's not all that hard to change a motto, and you'll live a much quieter life if you don't go out of your way to offend people.

[quote=Negatronia]I am not saying Muslims suck, I am saying Islamic forms of government that oppress the citizens of their country suck. Just look at Iran, Saudi, Egypt, or Syria to see what I am saying.

You're not saying "Islamic forms of government of suck" you are saying the countries do. You're also equating their forms of government with their religion. Iran is a religious orientated democracy by the way, Egypt a secular dictatorship, and Saudi Arabia a secularish monarchy.

I am offended by the motto, it leads me to assume you are ignorant and bigoted. You may not be, but you're giving out that impression. If you don't want to offend people the simple rule is to not be offensive towards them, it usually works.

I believe that a Republican Democracy is the ideal political system. I feel that some Islamic country's govts like Iran (on paper they may be a democracy, but so was Saddam's Iraq) are only a step above North Korea or China as far as Civil Rights and Political Rights that are allowed to their citizens.

Again, one of the main people who was messaging me complaining about my motto was a country in the region called "White Power". Their name and beliefs my offend me, but I am not bitching about it. I realize thats what they want with their countries and region and I let it be, while others try to impose their ideals on my country.

"If you have to ask, the answer is no."

If you feel your motto is questionable, then you should take it down, IMHO. It's not all that hard to change a motto, and you'll live a much quieter life if you don't go out of your way to offend people.

Since I founded my country at the beginning of Sept, my motto has not been a problem until now.

If I am forced to change my motto, I would like the "White Power" region disbanded

You see, there's a sublte difference. "White Power" simply implies that the inhabitants of the region are white supremacists, or at least bigots. Bigotry, though unpleasant and oft irrational, has not been outlawed by Max. Your motto is an actual flame, posited as a question. Flaming has been prohibited, and thus the motto is inappropriate. Also, just because it hasn't been a problem until now doesn't mean that it's not a problem. It just means that, among the five hundred thousand some odd nations in this game, one little nation was overlooked. Suprising, that. </sarcasm>

My $.02.

You see, there's a sublte difference. "White Power" simply implies that the inhabitants of the region are white supremacists, or at least bigots. Bigotry, though unpleasant and oft irrational, has not been outlawed by Max. Your motto is an actual flame, posited as a question. Flaming has been prohibited, and thus the motto is inappropriate.

My $.02.

Bigotry and a flame that offends someone is the same thing.

Besides, I am not being a Bigot, I am attacking a certain form of govt.

It would be the same as if I would have "Down with Democracy" for my motto

No, bigotry is not the same thing as flaming.

Compare the following:

"I think Middle-Eastern nations based upon a conservative Islamic government are inferior to America's democracy."

"Islamics suck."

The first is bigotry: a blanket statement based upon generalization and incorrect assumptions. The second is flaming because it is a direct offensive insult, an attack.

according to the rules, the only stuff I cannot post or have related to my country is material that is "obscene, illegal, threatening, malicious, defamatory, or spam"

my current motto is none of these.

No, bigotry is not the same thing as flaming.

Compare the following:

"I think Middle-Eastern nations based upon a conservative Islamic government are inferior to America's democracy."

"Islamics suck."

The first is bigotry: a blanket statement based upon generalization and incorrect assumptions. The second is flaming because it is a direct offensive insult, an attack.

Again, to the ill-minded, I never stated that "Islamics suck." I stated that Islamic types of govt suck.

don't agree with your motto, but i don't agree with forcing people to change their motto either.
if you don't agree with somebody, just discuss it. forcing it is the same as beating somebody because he says things you don't agree with.

A bit off topic, or perhaps not...

"I think Middle-Eastern nations based upon a conservative Islamic government are inferior to America's democracy."

This is not bigotry, because when looked at in comparison to democracy in certain areas, such as human rights and freedom of speech, it's true, and the UN and AI admit it.

So, it may be non-politically correct, but it isn't bigotry.

ma·li·cious
adj.
Having the nature of or resulting from malice; deliberately harmful; spiteful: malicious gossip.

def·a·ma·tion
n.
The act of defaming; calumny

de·fame
tr.v. de·famed, de·fam·ing, de·fames
To damage the reputation, character, or good name of by slander or libel. See Synonyms at malign.
Archaic. To disgrace


Your motto is both malicious and defamatory. It's clearly meant as an attack, as you so thoughtfully stated a couple posts ago.

To whit:



Bigotry and a flame that offends someone is the same thing.

Besides, I am not being a Bigot, I am attacking a certain form of govt.

It would be the same as if I would have "Down with Democracy" for my motto

Emphasis added.

I was asking this question to the mods, it looks as though they have all called it a night or whatever. You all have brought up some good points that i did not recognize. My motto was not intended to piss anyone off, and I will trymy hardest to keep it.

thanks everyone for your opinions, and I hope yall have a good day tomorrow

A bit off topic, or perhaps not...

This is not bigotry, because when looked at in comparison to democracy in certain areas, such as human rights and freedom of speech, it's true, and the UN and AI admit it.

So, it may be non-politically correct, but it isn't bigotry.

An exaggeration to make the point.

If my motto attacked the fact that i didnt like the weather today would that be justifed in me changing my motto???

the truth is that no one on NS knows what it is like to the oppressed by a radical islamic govt, so there is no one clarify to you that I dislike the govt, not the religion.

No one here can be truly offended by motto, because no one here lives in Iran or Saudi

Saudi Arabia became a fundamental Islamic state? When did that happen?

:shock:

If I am forced to change my motto, I would like the "White Power" region disbanded

First of all, things don't work like that. This isn't the barter system. If we decided that your motto is no good, it's no good. You either change it, or we change it for you. You can't demand action by us in another area in return for you following the rules.

No one here can be truly offended by motto, because no one here lives in Iran or Saudi
Incorrect.


Finally, Enodia's right. "In God We Trust" is not the motto of the USA.

If my motto attacked the fact that i didnt like the weather today would that be justifed in me changing my motto???

the truth is that no one on NS knows what it is like to the oppressed by a radical islamic govt, so there is no one clarify to you that I dislike the govt, not the religion.

No one here can be truly offended by motto, because no one here lives in Iran or Saudi

You aregument is completely beside the point. You have attacked an entire swathe (thanks for the quote, Enodia) of governments, their people, and their chosen religion. This is a flame, as surely as if you said "Every Moslem is stupid."

As the Game Moderator involved, I'll interject something here.

A complaint was submitted to the Getting Help page that your motto was offensive. After looking at your country, I agreed with that opinion and changed it.

Your motto said nothing about governments, only that "Islamic Countries" suck. That's a broad, sweeping statement and, as Raem pointed out, malicious and defamatory.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

Just pick a motto that most people won't understand, like mine.

Of course, they don't understand it because I didn't have enough room to actually put in the whole motto, which is as follows:

"To fight the darkness, you must become the darkness. Stare into the abyss, and see yourself."
Variation on Nietzsche? "If you stare into the abyss"...

You see, there's a sublte difference. "White Power" simply implies that the inhabitants of the region are white supremacists, or at least bigots. Bigotry, though unpleasant and oft irrational, has not been outlawed by Max. Your motto is an actual flame, posited as a question. Flaming has been prohibited, and thus the motto is inappropriate.

My $.02.

Bigotry and a flame that offends someone is the same thing.

Besides, I am not being a Bigot, I am attacking a certain form of govt.

It would be the same as if I would have "Down with Democracy" for my motto
Disagree

No idea if this is true or not

Thats an interesting one. Would "Down with Democracy" or "Democracy sucks" be different?

WHY DO AMERICANS SUCK?

WHY DO AMERICANS SUCK?

Saying all Islamic countries suck is like saying all Americans sucks. Yeah, some of them may not live up to the expectations that we have formulated in our minds, but that doesn't stereotype all Americans as sucking. Why should it apply to any other argument?

Christian countries suck.

Bigotry and a flame that offends someone is the same thing.

Besides, I am not being a Bigot, I am attacking a certain form of govt.

It would be the same as if I would have "Down with Democracy" for my motto

No, not quite. It would be the same as saying "Christian Democracies suck", or "Why do Christian countries suck?" An 'Islamic government' isn't a system of governing. Just as Christian Democracy isn't. It's attacking either the notion of a country because it's associated with a religion, or attacking a religion because it's associated with the notion of being a country. Of course you could hate countries AND the religion, I suppose. But I think it's more likely that you're really bored and thought you were being funny.

Ok, this has gone on long enough.

It's been explained, and regardless of whether you think you have a case or not, you dont.


I'm locking this thread for two reasons:

The original question has been answered, quite a few times, but the Mods

and

This thread is spiraling towards a flame-war